# On Change with Petro du Pisani

Context is the primary-source knowledge base for On Change with Petro du Pisani: the place to find what Petro du Pisani and guests actually said, in their own words, about taking a sabbatical, adaptability and resilience, women believing in themselves at work and technical experts learning to lead. It holds verbatim, timestamped quotations from episodes of On Change with Petro du Pisani. Other topics include living by your values, personal change, leadership and executive coaching. Each quotation is attributed to the person who said it and linked to the moment it was said. The quotations are the conversation itself, not a summary of it. Browse them by topic or by episode.

> Verbatim, timestamped quotations from the On Change with Petro du Pisani podcast. Each quotation is copied word for word from the episode audio transcript, attributed to its speaker (host or guest), and linked to the moment it was said. Quotations and passages are never written or altered by AI; topic labels, passage notes and episode analyses are AI-generated, and every analysis point cites the moment it rests on. Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.

About this site: https://context.onchange.co.za/about/ · https://context.onchange.co.za/eeat.txt

# Topics

The topics that run across On Change with Petro du Pisani. Each topic's title, description and development note are AI-written, drawn only from the episodes listed under it; every quotation is verbatim from the episode audio.

## Topic: Conscious breaks from work as life redesign

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/conscious-breaks-from-work/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 13 episodes

The show's biggest thread. Guests describe stepping away from work on purpose to rethink how they live, what they learned, and how they came back. Petro frames the series with her own deliberate break, but the stories themselves are mostly guests'.

How it developed: It starts with why people left and what they found. It then moves to re-entry and carrying the lessons back into work (#036–#039). Later episodes widen it to shorter rests available to people who cannot take a full sabbatical.

### What was said

> "So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · #027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/ · [11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=689)

> "So without taking that sabbatical, I don't think I would have been able to take the time to reflect and grow and learn enough about myself to understand where I needed to go next in my career."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · #028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/ · [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1506)

> "You can actually come back a better person because of this experience."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · #031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/ · [23:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1403)

> "I've gone from being a cynic to being a very big advocate of it."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · #034 The Transformative Break | Zaheera Soomar · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/034-the-transformative-break/ · [32:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1929)

> "this experience leaves you as a different person, probably more than it leaves you with having done different things,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · #036 Rest, Reset, and Recharge | Sas Wessels · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/036-rest-reset-and-recharge/ · [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=904)

> "taking a sabbatical is a huge privilege, of course, but actually, we can all take periods of rest. And it doesn't have to be a sabbatical."
> — Amy Martin, guest · #042 Special Focus on Seasonality | Amy Martin · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/042-special-focus-on-seasonality/ · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1502)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/) (2024-08-02)
- [#028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/) (2024-08-08)
- [#029 A Life-Changing Break | Hermien Uys](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/029-a-life-changing-break/) (2024-08-23)
- [#030 The Healing Pause | Ntseiseng Lephole](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/030-the-healing-pause/) (2024-09-01)
- [#031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/) (2024-09-12)
- [#034 The Transformative Break | Zaheera Soomar](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/034-the-transformative-break/) (2024-10-24)
- [#035 The Re-ignition Pause | Briony Liber](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/035-the-re-ignition-pause/) (2024-10-28)
- [#036 Rest, Reset, and Recharge | Sas Wessels](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/036-rest-reset-and-recharge/) (2024-10-30)
- [#037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/) (2025-01-25)
- [#038 The Reinvention Pause | Mike Stopforth](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/038-the-reinvention-pause/) (2025-01-27)
- [#039 The Sabbatical Mindset | Omri van Zyl](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/039-the-sabbatical-mindset/) (2025-01-30)
- [#042 Special Focus on Seasonality | Amy Martin](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/042-special-focus-on-seasonality/) (2025-02-26)
- [#045 Lessons from Everest | Jeannette McGill](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/045-lessons-from-everest/) (2025-11-07)

## Topic: Who am I without the job title?

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/identity-beyond-the-title/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 7 episodes

Guest after guest describes how their sense of self had merged with their employer or role, and the discomfort of losing it. They talk about social pressure, feeling lost at first, and slowly finding their own worth. Petro adds her own account of untangling herself from corporate life.

How it developed: It moves from the shock of losing a corporate identity to reclaiming self-worth (#034). In #038 it adds a practical point: separate the skills you enjoy from the environment that soured them.

### What was said

> "I needed to be very clear that I am not my job, I am not a job."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · #027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/ · [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=392)

> "I seem to have found my worth in that corporate persona,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · #029 A Life-Changing Break | Hermien Uys · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/029-a-life-changing-break/ · [37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2273)

> "I almost felt like a loss of purpose. I think because I tied a lot of my identity and my purpose to my work, I was living out my passion and living out my purpose through my work. So when my work stopped, it almost felt like that stopped."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · #034 The Transformative Break | Zaheera Soomar · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/034-the-transformative-break/ · [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=946)

> "It was about disentangling myself or my identity from, from the company I used to work for, is to actually find out who I was without being that corporate person."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #035 The Re-ignition Pause | Briony Liber · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/035-the-re-ignition-pause/ · [25:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1559)

> "if you go to a braai, people normally ask you two things, what's your name and then what you do, right? And what you do defines you."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · #036 Rest, Reset, and Recharge | Sas Wessels · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/036-rest-reset-and-recharge/ · [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1250)

> "And that year I turned 40 and I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't, or I felt didn't feel comfortable trading on being the ex-CEO of Cerebra anymore. I felt like there was a statute of limitations and how long I could take credit for my legacy."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · #038 The Reinvention Pause | Mike Stopforth · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/038-the-reinvention-pause/ · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=489)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/) (2024-08-02)
- [#028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/) (2024-08-08)
- [#029 A Life-Changing Break | Hermien Uys](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/029-a-life-changing-break/) (2024-08-23)
- [#034 The Transformative Break | Zaheera Soomar](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/034-the-transformative-break/) (2024-10-24)
- [#035 The Re-ignition Pause | Briony Liber](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/035-the-re-ignition-pause/) (2024-10-28)
- [#036 Rest, Reset, and Recharge | Sas Wessels](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/036-rest-reset-and-recharge/) (2024-10-30)
- [#038 The Reinvention Pause | Mike Stopforth](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/038-the-reinvention-pause/) (2025-01-27)

## Topic: Burnout, warning signs and listening to your body

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/burnout-and-the-body/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 11 episodes

The show keeps returning to people who pushed until their bodies forced a stop. It covers the warning signs, and argues for choosing to rest before collapse. In 2025 the thread becomes a special focus with specialists. Petro repeatedly asks why people wait until they break.

How it developed: It starts as a mindfulness topic (2018), becomes lived experience in the break stories (2024), then a specialist focus (2025). #041 disputes the workload explanation, and #043 points at managers.

### What was said

> "burnout is nothing more than a sustained period of stress."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · #010 Steven Heyman | Yoga and enabling change through mindfulness · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/010-yoga-and-enabling-change-through-mindfulness/ · [25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1551)

> "So please listen to your bodies. I think it's so, so important to listen to your gut, to see the warning signs,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · #031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/ · [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2336)

> "take purposeful time out because you're choosing to, not because you've burnt out."
> — Briony Liber, guest · #035 The Re-ignition Pause | Briony Liber · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/035-the-re-ignition-pause/ · [35:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2139)

> "it looks quite positive with what you're doing, but then drive merges into overdrive."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · #040 Special Focus on Burnout | Laura-Jean Evens & Lurinda Maree · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/040-special-focus-on-burnout/ · [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=386)

> "So burnout is not a weakness. It's a feedback loop to say you're not aligned."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · #041 Special Focus on Burnout | Shannon Royden-Turner · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/041-special-focus-on-burnout/ · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "the winter's going to grab you somehow. So let's plan for it instead."
> — Amy Martin, guest · #042 Special Focus on Seasonality | Amy Martin · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/042-special-focus-on-seasonality/ · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=399)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#010 Steven Heyman | Yoga and enabling change through mindfulness](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/010-yoga-and-enabling-change-through-mindfulness/) (2018-11-20)
- [#028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/) (2024-08-08)
- [#030 The Healing Pause | Ntseiseng Lephole](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/030-the-healing-pause/) (2024-09-01)
- [#031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/) (2024-09-12)
- [#035 The Re-ignition Pause | Briony Liber](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/035-the-re-ignition-pause/) (2024-10-28)
- [#037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/) (2025-01-25)
- [#040 Special Focus on Burnout | Laura-Jean Evens & Lurinda Maree](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/040-special-focus-on-burnout/) (2025-02-01)
- [#041 Special Focus on Burnout | Shannon Royden-Turner](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/041-special-focus-on-burnout/) (2025-02-17)
- [#042 Special Focus on Seasonality | Amy Martin](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/042-special-focus-on-seasonality/) (2025-02-26)
- [#043 We Need New Leaders | Charlotte Otter](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/043-we-need-new-leaders/) (2025-09-09)
- [#046 Lessons from a serial entrepreneur | Catherine Wijnberg](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/046-lessons-from-a-serial-entrepreneur/) (2025-12-24)

## Topic: Keeping the break alive after returning

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/carrying-the-pause-into-daily-life/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 7 episodes

Guests describe how they protect what a break gave them once they are back at work: daily touch points, rest days, quarterly long weekends, mini breaks. Petro names this a 'sabbatical mindset', which is also the title of #039 rather than a defined method.

How it developed: It moves from individual guest routines to Petro naming the idea herself (#037). It then becomes a way of framing rest for people who never take a long break.

### What was said

> "through, through all these various sabbaticals, I identified four or five things that are meaningful for my existence. So in a day, I try and ensure that I have some touch points with those things. Of course, there's days where, as you know, you just, corporate just runs away with you. If I have two or more of those kind of days, I then have to sit and reevaluate my life."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · #027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/ · [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250)

> "a lot of the people I speak to save their leave until the end of the year to have a proper break, but to go the whole year without a break is actually not sustainable, you know, and we then encourage people to look at in each quarter to take a little bit of time out"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · #031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/ · [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2355)

> "So I started doing these mini breaks, you know, a, a weekend with not looking at the computer or the phone, and just very deliberately doing something different. Because I'd learned the importance of being mentally switched off and having a, a refresher that way."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · #037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/ · [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120)

> "I have this concept which I call the sabbatical mindset. And it almost sounds like these mini breaks and mental health breaks are part of taking your sabbatical mindset back into the workplace with you and to maintain that break feeling"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/ · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183)

> "you can't just once a year go and do something you like and then you go back and do something you hate and then you go. So you have to do it continuously."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · #039 The Sabbatical Mindset | Omri van Zyl · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/039-the-sabbatical-mindset/ · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678)

> "it's nice to have a bit of a, a longer break to reflect and do all of that, but then you have to try and sort of work shorter breaks into your actual life to make sure that you take time to pause and reflect."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #044 We need a new future | Carmen Murray · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/044-we-need-a-new-future/ · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=902)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/) (2024-08-02)
- [#030 The Healing Pause | Ntseiseng Lephole](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/030-the-healing-pause/) (2024-09-01)
- [#031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/) (2024-09-12)
- [#037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/) (2025-01-25)
- [#039 The Sabbatical Mindset | Omri van Zyl](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/039-the-sabbatical-mindset/) (2025-01-30)
- [#042 Special Focus on Seasonality | Amy Martin](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/042-special-focus-on-seasonality/) (2025-02-26)
- [#044 We need a new future | Carmen Murray](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/044-we-need-a-new-future/) (2025-10-31)

## Topic: Change begins with yourself

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/personal-change-and-choice/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 7 episodes

Across the early change episodes and the EMBA conversations, guests say personal change is the hard part. What matters is the choice you make in how you respond. Petro contributes little here, so this is mainly guest-carried, but it underpins her 'change is personal' stance.

How it developed: It begins as a side remark from change-management practitioners (2017–2018). By the EMBA episodes (2020–2022) it has become the central lesson: self-mastery and choosing your response.

### What was said

> "sometimes I think we're change managers because we, we find change very difficult. I certainly do."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · #001 Tom Marsicano | Change in a production environment · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/001-change-in-a-production-environment/ · [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=882)

> "you can take anything from any person, but not his choice, which really was the ultimate freedom."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · #002 Dr. Ryk Croukamp | Logotherapy and self-awareness in change · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/002-logotherapy-and-self-awareness-in-change/ · [14:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=873)

> "recognize that the hardest person to change is yourself."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · #004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/ · [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2185)

> "life is not about a success story. Life is about dealing with failure,"
> — Chris Breen, guest · #017 Chris Breen | Finding what matters most · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/017-finding-what-matters-most/ · [36:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2160)

> "I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · #019 Gordon Wilson | Purpose as a driver for human behaviour · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/019-purpose-as-a-driver-for-human/ · [35:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2109)

> "between a stimulus and response, there's a pause, and in that pause lies our opportunity to choose our response, and in that choice lies our opportunity for growth."
> — Chris Smith, guest · #020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/ · [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1234)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#001 Tom Marsicano | Change in a production environment](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/001-change-in-a-production-environment/) (2017-11-18)
- [#002 Dr. Ryk Croukamp | Logotherapy and self-awareness in change](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/002-logotherapy-and-self-awareness-in-change/) (2018-01-25)
- [#003 Dr. Barbara Trautlein | Change Intelligence (CQ)](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/003-change-intelligence-cq/) (2018-03-25)
- [#004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/) (2018-03-30)
- [#017 Chris Breen | Finding what matters most](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/017-finding-what-matters-most/) (2020-07-19)
- [#019 Gordon Wilson | Purpose as a driver for human behaviour](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/019-purpose-as-a-driver-for-human/) (2022-04-04)
- [#020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/) (2022-06-16)

## Topic: The people side beats the perfect solution

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/human-side-of-improvement/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 7 episodes

From business improvement to technology rollouts, guests argue that listening, buy-in and people's own purposes decide whether anything sticks. Petro backs this with her own experience of thousands of conversations on a fatality task force. Much of it comes from early episodes about managing organisational change.

How it developed: It starts as tactics from practitioners, becomes Petro's own first-hand evidence in #015, and resurfaces briefly in 2024 on mining innovation. It is then absent from the recent episodes.

### What was said

> "Also, listening shows that you care, and often that is really what people are looking for during, times of, of change."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · #001 Tom Marsicano | Change in a production environment · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/001-change-in-a-production-environment/ · [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1240)

> "the best tactic, to apply to anybody who's resisting change is just first to sit down and listen to that person. And why are they resisting it?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #003 Dr. Barbara Trautlein | Change Intelligence (CQ) · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/003-change-intelligence-cq/ · [21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263)

> "better to have the solution that everyone's bought into than the perfect solution, because it's the one that will probably stick"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · #004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/ · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=430)

> "The toughest part about what the mind of the future looks like is actually the people challenges. The technology and the technology implementation and the digital is actually the easy part."
> — Gary Lane, guest · #006 Harry Sinko and Gary Lane | Disruption in the mining industry · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/006-disruption-in-the-mining-industry/ · [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1132)

> "And having spoken to so many people, I think over 2000 conversations, you know, you sort of realize that if you want to change anything or put any sort of corporate strategy into place, you have to think like you're speaking to those guys."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #015 Tracey Swanepoel, Lisa Shippey and Bernard Swanepoel | The power of storytelling to inspire change · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/015-the-power-of-storytelling-to-inspire/ · [30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1824)

> "you need people who are currently In the process to be part of that deployment team, as well as the people who've developed it, and to work together to make it actually work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #026 Thoughts on Innovation in the Mining Industry | Elaine Hattingh & Sandiso Sibisi · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/026-thoughts-on-innovation-in-the-mining/ · [30:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1816)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#001 Tom Marsicano | Change in a production environment](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/001-change-in-a-production-environment/) (2017-11-18)
- [#003 Dr. Barbara Trautlein | Change Intelligence (CQ)](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/003-change-intelligence-cq/) (2018-03-25)
- [#004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/) (2018-03-30)
- [#006 Harry Sinko and Gary Lane | Disruption in the mining industry](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/006-disruption-in-the-mining-industry/) (2018-07-16)
- [#015 Tracey Swanepoel, Lisa Shippey and Bernard Swanepoel | The power of storytelling to inspire change](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/015-the-power-of-storytelling-to-inspire/) (2020-01-07)
- [#016 Kosheek Sewchurran | Creating worlds through conversation](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/016-creating-worlds-through-conversation/) (2020-07-13)
- [#026 Thoughts on Innovation in the Mining Industry | Elaine Hattingh & Sandiso Sibisi](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/026-thoughts-on-innovation-in-the-mining/) (2024-01-14)

## Topic: From technical expert to leader of people

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/technical-experts-learning-to-lead/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 6 episodes

Guests who rose on technical skill describe finding that leading means focusing people rather than supplying answers, admitting what they don't know, and supporting new managers. Most of it comes from EMBA graduates and women founders speaking about themselves, not from Petro.

How it developed: It moves from a business improvement practitioner's advice (2018) to first-person shifts told by EMBA graduates (2020–2022). It closes with women founders leading teams whose technical work they don't do themselves.

### What was said

> "So a big shift that we want to get people to make is, particularly at the leadership level, is pull away from solutions, be, be more capable in the area of focusing people on the right things,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · #004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/ · [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1727)

> "I realized I knew so little about people. I was, you know, I was so skilled in everything else."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · #016 Kosheek Sewchurran | Creating worlds through conversation · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/016-creating-worlds-through-conversation/ · [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=822)

> "many organizations, leaders kind of are just chosen from individuals within the organization, not necessarily based on leadership capability or leadership skills, but because they've either been there longest or because they're the best accountant or best engineer."
> — Chris Smith, guest · #020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/ · [16:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=974)

> "understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · #023 Harnessing shared leadership to improve strategic coherence | Jordan Ludlow · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/023-harnessing-shared-leadership-to-improve-strategic/ · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=245)

> "We're not very good at training our managers. And our managers are so important because they are the culture translators from the C-suite to employees."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · #043 We Need New Leaders | Charlotte Otter · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/043-we-need-new-leaders/ · [23:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1387)

> "you don't have to be able to do the job to know how it needs to be done well, and you can still guide that process."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · #048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/ · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=429)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/) (2018-03-30)
- [#016 Kosheek Sewchurran | Creating worlds through conversation](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/016-creating-worlds-through-conversation/) (2020-07-13)
- [#020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/) (2022-06-16)
- [#023 Harnessing shared leadership to improve strategic coherence | Jordan Ludlow](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/023-harnessing-shared-leadership-to-improve-strategic/) (2022-07-18)
- [#043 We Need New Leaders | Charlotte Otter](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/043-we-need-new-leaders/) (2025-09-09)
- [#048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/) (2026-06-02)

## Topic: Purpose and values as the compass

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/purpose-and-values-as-compass/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 7 episodes

Purpose recurs first as an EMBA research subject and then as a personal filter for choosing work and direction. Petro describes it as a filter for decisions. Later guests treat values as a 'North Star' and misalignment as a cause of burnout.

How it developed: It shifts from purpose as an organisational research theme (2020–2022) to a personal compass used during breaks and in later life choices (2024–2025).

### What was said

> "If they don't resonate with the purposes people have, they're just not going to see it, and they're just not going to use it."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · #016 Kosheek Sewchurran | Creating worlds through conversation · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/016-creating-worlds-through-conversation/ · [13:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=813)

> "Secondly, so my second major finding was that purpose is an intrinsic motivator. So purpose as the, the underlying drive to do something because it is in service of something bigger than ourselves, or because it's interesting, or because it matters to us personally, that's an incredibly powerful motivational force for human beings."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · #019 Gordon Wilson | Purpose as a driver for human behaviour · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/019-purpose-as-a-driver-for-human/ · [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1207)

> "Where people, again, tied to your demonic experience of happiness, where people felt that their purpose was aligned with the company's purpose, and that what they were doing each day was aligned with that purpose and, and furthering the interests of the company. they were much more motivated at work, they were much happier at work."
> — Chris Smith, guest · #020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/ · [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=789)

> "it's like a filter, that you can then go, okay, well, this, this either resonates with me or it doesn't, or it aligns with my purpose or it doesn't."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #022 Understanding my desire to be a biotech entrepreneur | Mauritz Venter · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/022-understanding-my-desire-to-be-a/ · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1187)

> "So burnout is not a weakness. It's a feedback loop to say you're not aligned."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · #041 Special Focus on Burnout | Shannon Royden-Turner · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/041-special-focus-on-burnout/ · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "I do believe that by spending time and figuring out what your own personal set of values are becomes such a strong North Star."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · #045 Lessons from Everest | Jeannette McGill · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/045-lessons-from-everest/ · [21:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1271)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#016 Kosheek Sewchurran | Creating worlds through conversation](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/016-creating-worlds-through-conversation/) (2020-07-13)
- [#019 Gordon Wilson | Purpose as a driver for human behaviour](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/019-purpose-as-a-driver-for-human/) (2022-04-04)
- [#020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/) (2022-06-16)
- [#022 Understanding my desire to be a biotech entrepreneur | Mauritz Venter](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/022-understanding-my-desire-to-be-a/) (2022-07-16)
- [#027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/) (2024-08-02)
- [#041 Special Focus on Burnout | Shannon Royden-Turner](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/041-special-focus-on-burnout/) (2025-02-17)
- [#045 Lessons from Everest | Jeannette McGill](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/045-lessons-from-everest/) (2025-11-07)

## Topic: Women backing themselves and claiming space

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/women-backing-themselves/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 6 episodes

Women leaders talk about self-doubt, feeling like they are wearing someone else's coat, being called bossy, and stretching their 'fear muscle'. They focus on self-knowledge and self-belief rather than diversity debates. It is concentrated in the Powerful Women series from #043, with Petro naming self-belief as what she sees most in female leaders.

How it developed: It starts from one mining executive's career lessons (2022). From #043 it widens into a dedicated series about self-belief, fear, ageing and money.

### What was said

> "as a leader, number one, you need to know yourself. You need to know yourself. You need to know your strengths. You need to know what challenges you. If you don't know yourself, somebody can tell you who you are."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · #025 Unleashing my superpowers | Patience Mpofu · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/025-unleashing-my-superpowers/ · [19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164)

> "I felt like I was wearing somebody else's coat."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · #043 We Need New Leaders | Charlotte Otter · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/043-we-need-new-leaders/ · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=416)

> "And for me, what I would share then is around that fear and the self-leadership is a muscle. And it's a muscle, like any muscle which you've got to take to the gym, it's a muscle that needs to get stretched."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · #045 Lessons from Everest | Jeannette McGill · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/045-lessons-from-everest/ · [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1823)

> "I wish somebody had told me, first of all, that it's okay to be bossy."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · #046 Lessons from a serial entrepreneur | Catherine Wijnberg · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/046-lessons-from-a-serial-entrepreneur/ · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1498)

> "I think probably my biggest barrier has been myself. And it's, it's been a lack of confidence."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · #048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/ · [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538)

> "I mean, it's probably the biggest thing that I see with female leaders is that we just don't believe in ourselves. We've got all the qualifications and all of the credentials and we've done so much work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/ · [25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1558)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#025 Unleashing my superpowers | Patience Mpofu](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/025-unleashing-my-superpowers/) (2022-08-29)
- [#043 We Need New Leaders | Charlotte Otter](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/043-we-need-new-leaders/) (2025-09-09)
- [#045 Lessons from Everest | Jeannette McGill](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/045-lessons-from-everest/) (2025-11-07)
- [#046 Lessons from a serial entrepreneur | Catherine Wijnberg](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/046-lessons-from-a-serial-entrepreneur/) (2025-12-24)
- [#047 Owning Your Financial Future | Ann Wilson](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/047-owning-your-financial-future/) (2026-03-05)
- [#048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/) (2026-06-02)

## Topic: You don't have to do it alone

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/threads/nobody-does-it-alone/
- 6 verbatim quotations from 7 episodes

Guests keep saying that coaches, therapists, mentors and honest friends made the difference. They also say it is fine to ask for help before a crisis. Petro repeatedly states her own belief in having coaches for many areas of life.

### What was said

> "because I've had a tremendous benefit from working with a series of coaches, you know, some from early career through to into executive and you, they see things that you can't see, you know, and they also help you to not believe your own stories you're telling yourself"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · #027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/ · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826)

> "You don't have to be in crisis before you reach out and have someone to talk to."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · #028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/ · [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1953)

> "one hundred percent, you need mentors and coaches in your life. You know, one person will help you with business and your career, others will look at your personal goals, others will look at fitness or spiritual goals,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · #031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/ · [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2761)

> "But also, I spent a bit of time asking people whom I was close to, or whose opinion mattered to me, what they thought my strengths were, and my areas of development, and I think I got the most out of that, actually asking people what they thought, and sort of comparing that feedback to what I thought of myself,"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · #037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/ · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823)

> "And the moment I did ask for help, it was abundant."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · #038 The Reinvention Pause | Mike Stopforth · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/038-the-reinvention-pause/ · [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=897)

> "I highly doubt that people can do it completely on their own. I do think you need some form of either professional help or a really, really steady person in your life or network in your life who can be brutally honest with you"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · #040 Special Focus on Burnout | Laura-Jean Evens & Lurinda Maree · https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/040-special-focus-on-burnout/ · [39:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2368)

### Episodes in this topic

- [#027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/) (2024-08-02)
- [#028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/) (2024-08-08)
- [#031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/) (2024-09-12)
- [#037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/) (2025-01-25)
- [#038 The Reinvention Pause | Mike Stopforth](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/038-the-reinvention-pause/) (2025-01-27)
- [#039 The Sabbatical Mindset | Omri van Zyl](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/039-the-sabbatical-mindset/) (2025-01-30)
- [#040 Special Focus on Burnout | Laura-Jean Evens & Lurinda Maree](https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/040-special-focus-on-burnout/) (2025-02-01)

# Episodes

## #048 The Accidental Entrepreneur | Carmel Peinke

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/048-the-accidental-entrepreneur/
- Date: 2026-06-02 (as at 2026-06-02)
- Guest: Carmel Peinke, Carmel Peinke
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Accidental path into FMCG, Founding E-Route to Market, Self-doubt and confidence, Networking through curiosity, Authentic leadership, Women in male-dominated tech, Integrity and ethics, Empowering future leaders
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1681852
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3

### About the guest: Carmel Peinke

- founder and CEO · eRoute2Market
- Landed in the FMCG industry by chance, launched Lipton Iced Tea in South Africa at Smollan, and built a business intelligence platform from scratch without writing a line of code, keeping it running for 17 years.

In their own words:

> "I'm still, managing the driving force behind E-Route to Market, which we launched in 2009, so that is keeping me fairly focused." [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=59)

> "So that was me in Smollan, launching new brands, and I walked into a team that was literally launching Lipton Iced Tea in this country, and it was all the experiential brand building." [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=159)

> "One-year proof of concept, and 17 years down the line, they're still a client. Under their new face, Pioneer Foods. But yeah, and then from there, it's just really been word of mouth." [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231)

> "I think that's the reason I joke and say this is the longest I've ever kept a job, because I'm 18 years in. They can't really fire me yet, but the reason I'm completely engaged is because I learn all the time, all day, every day." [07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=465)

> "We were first to market, so that was just like, wow. And in fact, our very first client paid us for three years of exclusivity in their categories." [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=597)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with Carmel Peinke about how she came into FMCG by chance, launched Lipton Iced Tea at Smollan, and saw a sales-data gap that led her to found E-Route to Market in 2009, a platform she built without writing code. Carmel speaks openly about lack of confidence as her biggest barrier, a male competitor who sold a similar business, and her morning self-talk routine. She discusses networking through curiosity, collaborative leadership driven by client delight, and the moment she noticed she was becoming someone she did not like. She closes with her plan to encourage women into data analytics.

**Key ideas**

- Carmel argues you do not need to be able to do a job yourself to know how it should be done well and to guide it, having led a tech business without coding. ([06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=394) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=418) [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=429))
- Carmel names her own lack of confidence as her biggest barrier, saying it kept her from pursuing big clients sooner, and contrasts this with a male competitor who sold a similar business. ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529) [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538) [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625))
- Carmel recommends networking by asking for coffee to learn about someone's business rather than to sell; the host adds that curiosity is the best way to build a network. ([13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=808) [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=914) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937))
- Carmel describes a collaborative style limited by client delight: collaboration stops if the client is not being served. ([16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=981) [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=986) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=995))
- Carmel says authentic leadership means being the same person at home and at work. ([27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666) [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1678))
- Carmel recalls being pushed to show more masculine attributes at Smollan and asking herself who she was becoming. ([18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1125) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1203) [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1214))
- Carmel treats secrecy as a warning sign and describes turning down an offer from two employees to build a competing product. ([23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1419) [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1447) [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1469))
- Carmel defines success as a leadership team confident and empowered enough to make decisions without her. ([30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1844))

**Carmel's morning self-talk on a blank page** ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529) [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=677))

1. First thing in the morning, set your list of priorities for the day.
2. Identify the big rock issues and the big clients to land in the next month or quarter.
3. Ask what small step you can take today to get one step closer.
4. Jot down on a blank piece of paper what is important and how you will get there.

**Lessons**

- Carmel's experience suggests self-doubt can delay going after large opportunities, and that a competitor's confidence can turn into a far larger outcome. ([09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625))
- Carmel advises approaching new markets with questions and no sales pitch, so you learn whether a channel will work for you. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937))
- Carmel says good service follows people from one employer to the next, so relationships carry the business. ([12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=774) [14:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=860))
- Carmel would tell her younger self to trust that she was hired for her ability and attitude and not to be intimidated by a louder voice. ([25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1504) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1528))
- The host argues for a beginner, experimental mindset: jump in and see what happens, whether you fail and learn or succeed. ([25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1558) [26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1618))

**Who it's for:** Women climbing the corporate ladder or thinking about starting a business, especially non-technical founders in tech or data, and anyone working in a male-dominated environment who struggles with confidence, networking or staying true to themselves as a leader.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Carmel says E-Route to Market was launched in 2009. ([00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=59))
- Carmel says the first proof-of-concept client is still a client 17 years later, now under Pioneer Foods. ([03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231))
- Carmel says E-Route to Market was first to market, and its first client paid for three years of exclusivity in its categories. ([09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=597))
- Carmel says the company now has three front-end mobile applications and is working with AI. ([09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=550))
- Carmel says she is 18 years into running the business. ([07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=465))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Carmel Peinke start E-Route to Market?**
A: While launching Lipton Iced Tea at Smollan, Carmel could not tell Unilever how many stores had sold how many cases. A techie friend offered to work with her; she specced the application, his team built it, and a one-year proof of concept became a client relationship of 17 years. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=101) [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=159) [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=206) [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231))

**Q: Can you run a tech company if you can't code?**
A: Carmel says she has never written a line of code, yet she learned that you do not have to be able to do the job to know how it should be done well and to guide the process. ([06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=394) [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=418) [36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2180))

**Q: What held Carmel back as a founder?**
A: She says her biggest barrier was herself and a lack of confidence, which meant she may not have gone after big clients as early as she should have. She contrasts this with a male competitor who sold a similar business for a large sum. ([08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538) [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571) [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611) [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625))

**Q: How do I build a business network in a new market?**
A: Carmel suggests calling people, asking for coffee, saying you do not want to sell anything, and asking them to help you understand the industry. The host adds that curiosity about how others succeeded is the best way to network. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898) [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=914) [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937))

**Q: How can a woman move up the leadership ladder and stay true to herself?**
A: Carmel describes being pushed to show more masculine attributes and asking herself who she was becoming. She argues an authentic leader is the same person at home and at work, and says running her own company lets her lead true to her values. ([18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1125) [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1203) [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1301) [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666))

**Q: What are warning signs that a business deal is unethical?**
A: Carmel says that when something is a secret it is never meant to be. She turned down two employees who wanted to build a competing product with her off-site. ([23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1419) [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1447) [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1469))

**Q: What does Carmel Peinke plan to do for women in tech?**
A: One of her 2026 goals is to get women involved in tech, data analytics and data science, including telling first-year university students that they are exactly how the consumer behaves. ([33:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1982) [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2004))

**Q: How does Carmel deal with self-doubt day to day?**
A: She sits down first thing in the morning, sets priorities and big goals, decides on one small step for the day, and writes it on a blank piece of paper. She says this gives her structure. ([08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529) [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=677))


### Passage: From accidental FMCG hire to founding E-Route to Market [01:41–04:00, 456 words]

Note (AI): Carmel's origin story: the recruiter, the Lipton Iced Tea launch, the sales-data gap, and the proof of concept that became a 17-year client relationship.

Carmel Peinke, guest [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=101):
> You mentioned earlier that I got my slot into the FMCG industry purely by chance, and when I tell you that's the truth, it's the God's honest truth. I was working with the most amazing lady. I was working in the automotive industry, and I had the most amazing lady who was my recruitment agent. And she called me up one day and she said, I've got the perfect job for you. And I said to her, Estelle, I'm not really in the market for a job because I really did love my job. And she said, no, no, I need you to meet this executive at Smollan. Please send me your updated CV, which I duly did. He saw my CV, he was a bit underwhelmed because I knew nothing about the FMCG industry. I was like, why would I apply for a senior position in the FMCG industry when I know nothing about it? She eventually bullied us to just have a cup of coffee. And I went through a very rigorous recruitment process. the person that I was replacing really supported me. She paid it forward. She spent weekends with me explaining the industry. I got to put together what I think to this day was an incredible presentation and I landed the job. So that was me in Smollan, launching new brands, and I walked into a team that was literally launching Lipton Iced Tea in this country, and it was all the experiential brand building. So it was getting parasols placed, it was getting the product listed on menu, it was getting people to sample, it was running competitions, it was doing fun mixes with products, just a whole lot of real brand awareness. And every Friday in those days, Unilever, Unilever still owned Lipton Iced Tea, but every Friday I had a meeting with Unilever to explain how sales performance was going.

Carmel Peinke, guest [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=196):
> And it was a, it was an absolute fly by the seat of our pants, you know, how many stores have sold how many cases of Lipton Iced Tea, and we honestly didn't

Carmel Peinke, guest [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=205):
> know. So I was by chance explaining this challenge to a friend of mine one day, and he was a techie, and he said, Carmel, let's work together on this. And I specced the application. His team developed it. We had a one-year proof of concept with the Ceres Beverage Company, because in that year, Lipton Iced Tea moved over to being manufactured by Ceres, what was then the Ceres Beverage Company. One-year proof of concept, and 17 years down the line, they're still a client. Under their new face, Pioneer Foods. But yeah, and then from there, it's just really been word of mouth.


### Passage: Self-doubt, a competitor's exit, and the blank page [08:49–11:48, 536 words]

Note (AI): Carmel names her own confidence as her biggest barrier, contrasts it with a male competitor's sale, and describes the morning self-talk routine she uses.

Petro du Pisani, host [08:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=529):
> So what is the biggest barriers you've had to face in this whole journey of learning and how did you overcome them?

Carmel Peinke, guest [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538):
> I think probably my biggest barrier has been myself. And it's, it's been a lack of confidence. to this day, when, when I show people, so we've now got three applications, three front-end applications, mobile applications, and we're now working with AI. And to this day, when somebody goes, oh my gosh, that's amazing, I'm blown away. Every time. So I hope I never lose that actually, because it's a genuine appreciation then for what we do. But that has been a stumbling block for me because it's meant that I potentially haven't gone after the big fish as soon as I should have. Or maybe I needed more experience, and only now we can really go after the big, big fish. I'll, I'll tell you why I say, why I think it was a stumbling block. There was a, there is a man who started a similar business. We were first to market, so that was just like, wow. And in fact, our very first client paid us for three years of exclusivity in their categories. So we could talk to anybody else if they had different categories, but not in their categories. There's a man in the industry who started a similar business about a year after me, but he started it in Africa. He is South African, started it up there, and then came back here. And he subsequently sold his business for an insane amount of money. And I just realize that that's the difference between a man's confidence. They just, they don't have that doubt thing. They just go for the target that I deviate left or right. Whereas I have sat On a rock every now and again, sort of, am I doing the right thing? Is this right? Are we really solving a real world problem? Is this enough? That's what I say, biggest stumbling block has definitely been me.

Petro du Pisani, host [10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=652):
> So what helps you to get over that self-doubt and keep going?

Carmel Peinke, guest [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=657):
> Sometimes I need to sit myself down and have a real chat with myself. You know, first thing in the morning before, you know, as the sun's coming up, it's just to, what is my list of priorities for the day? What are the big rock issues that, or what are the big clients I need to land in the next month or the next quarter? You know, where do I want to go? And what do I need to do today? What small step do I need to take, do today to bring me one step closer to that? And I think it's taking those moments of self-talk. Just stopping at the blank piece of paper, all my notes are in here, blank piece of paper and just jotting down what's important. How am I going to get there? What do I need to do? I think that, I think that helps me tremendously. Doesn't mean I stop feeling the lack of confidence, but it just, it makes, it creates structure for me.

Petro du Pisani, host [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=706):
> So

Carmel Peinke, guest [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=706):
> I've got a little roadmap, and then I can go.


### Passage: Relationships and networking by asking questions [13:28–15:58, 498 words]

Note (AI): Practical networking approach: stable product, warm relationships, and coffee meetings where you ask questions rather than sell.

Petro du Pisani, host [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=808):
> It sounds like this business is very sort of relationship based. If you've built a good relationship, then people will keep using your business. So how important has that been to like network and build relationships?

Carmel Peinke, guest [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=823):
> It's been crucial. Like our product has to stand the test of time and it's got to be stable. It can never fall over. You know, all of those things that actually should be a bare minimum in a, a software or a software as a service or software as a platform environment. The relationships will open the doors. I've just been on a conference Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, with one of the petroleum companies and all of the suppliers and all of the route to market partners were there. And it was just the going to go and greet somebody you know and in walking into that group going, oh, you must meet so and so. And it's having that warmth. That's where it's been good to be a woman, that you can walk in and hug somebody hello and just like be genuinely pleased to see them. Immediately introduce me. You must come and see so and so. You know, meet our new MD. It's like, oh, this is great. Hi, I'm so embarrassed that I haven't met you yet. So, the relationship thing has definitely worked.

Petro du Pisani, host [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=876):
> Yeah, so I get a lot of questions from my coaching clients about how do I build my network and how do I do networking and how do I break into a new market? so do you have any tips around how to do that?

Carmel Peinke, guest [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=890):
> It's so interesting you ask me that question right now because that's one of the little rocks I'm sitting on. And you know, you do it exactly the same way you did the first time. You pick up the phone and you say, can I come and have a cup of coffee with you? I don't want to sell you anything. I actually just want to ask you some questions. I would like you to help me understand the industry a bit better, please. And if it's relevant, I'd like to see if our services can help you.

Petro du Pisani, host [15:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=913):
> Yeah. I sort of think that the best way to network or to build a network is through curiosity, is to just be 100% curious about the business, about how they made it work for them, what they did to be successful, you know, and just to see if anything aligns. 100%. Yeah.

Carmel Peinke, guest [15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=933):
> Yeah. Because if you, to that point exactly, if you're, if you're approaching it with the curiosity, as you mentioned, then you're getting more answers than questions, and you will walk away from that meeting knowing whether this channel is actually going to work for you or not.

Carmel Peinke, guest [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=949):
> Yeah.

Carmel Peinke, guest [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=949):
> Not you as a person, your service offering. Because if you've asked enough questions of the first person you encounter, they'll tell you enough for you to know.


### Passage: Collaborative leadership and the Smollan mandate [16:21–18:44, 400 words]

Note (AI): Carmel describes her leadership style, how client delight limits collaboration, and the autonomy at Smollan that prepared her to run her own company.

Carmel Peinke, guest [16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=981):
> I prefer a collaborative leadership style. I guess, actually, I'm a bit of a mixed bag because collabora, I don't believe I'm the knower of all things. I do not have the answers to all questions, and I firmly believe the more brains you throw at a problem, the better your solution's going to be. I am driven for client delight, though. So we can collaborate all we like. If, if we are not delighting the client, the collaboration stops, because without them, we don't exist. So, that's something, and over the years, That has served me well, and it's not served me well, because people, so, you're a woman, and oftentimes people that don't know you will then think, when you start engaging, when they start their employment journey, they're like, oh, she's quite relaxed. And it's almost a fundamental human failing that, okay, I see she's quite relaxed, so I'll just... And the crazy thing is, as a woman, you also feel it intuitively, and then, and then the minute I feel something's off, then I start checking outcomes, and I'm like, we've got a problem here. And then I get fiercely cheeky,

Petro du Pisani, host [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1048):
> which

Carmel Peinke, guest [17:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1049):
> is so unnecessary. I get downright savage. And I guess I was that, I was probably a harder leader at Smollan, because it's an incredibly hard business, but they also, they drive excellence. There, you can breathe and you can have excellence, and those are the only two things that occupy your day. also client delight, and they want performance, the end. and then when I transitioned into my business, I think I've kept a lot of that. And I was also very fortunate at Smollan in that, so I reported into a man who reported directly into, in those days, Doug Smollan, and he gave me carte blanche. He said to me, Carmel, here's the mandate. This is the earnings that you need to achieve. This is, you know, the turnover I would recommend to get that. This is where you're going. If You have to excuse my tone of phrase, but this is literally what he said. He said, if the shit hits the fan, phone me. Otherwise, just go and get it. So that was really good for me. He just left me alone. I was responsible and accountable.

Petro du Pisani, host [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1119):
> Yeah.

Carmel Peinke, guest [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1120):
> so it was quite easy then for me to migrate over.


### Passage: Being tested on integrity and femininity at work [18:45–21:21, 449 words]

Note (AI): A turning point: Carmel recognises she was being pushed to lead against her nature and connects it to her exit to build E-Route to Market.

Petro du Pisani, host [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1125):
> Another thing that I, I, I see a lot of women grappling with, as they go up the leadership chain to, to higher and higher levels is how do I do that, but still maintain my own sense of self and my own sense of authority and integrity, you know? Cause it's, it's almost like in some companies you have to mold yourself to that company and become like a representative of that company to get anywhere. So how do you go up the leadership ladder while still being true to yourself?

Carmel Peinke, guest [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1157):
> And maintaining your femininity.

Petro du Pisani, host [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1159):
> Yeah, and, and that as well. Yes.

Carmel Peinke, guest [19:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1161):
> You've just. Shaking me up with that thinking, because as much as I absolutely loved where I was, because it was such a hard male-dominated world, I was expected to be a very hard leader in terms of driving outcomes, driving performance. and actually, if I, if I have to really dig deep, I probably, I mean, I could have wandered over to the IT guys, I knew them, to take my idea to Smollan. I actually was being tested at exactly that point in time. my line manager had changed, and, and I was being tested on exactly the points you make. And I remember driving home one day, talking to myself out loud, cause I do do that, and saying to myself, cause I'd lost my temper. And I got into my car on the way home, and I said, who the hell are you? Who are you becoming? And I didn't like it. And as much as he was only one aspect of my life, I was clearly starting to face that very thing. And I've actually never thought about that before. Because for me, the next thing was just moving into getting E-Route to Market off the ground. And then that guy moved into another portfolio and somebody else came in who was like quite relaxed with me and said, like, Carmel, we just need you to stick around for another three months. We, we don't. And then it was three, I had an 11-month notice period by the end of it. But I was coming into the office, but doing what I needed to, to get E-Route to Market going. And it was everybody was on board with it. But I hadn't actually thought about that. I was being tested on that very thing to maintain my integrity, to, I'm a woman. And, and he was challenging exactly that. Just by pushing me, I mean, he, he wasn't doing anything untoward, but just by pushing, pushing me to display more masculine attributes. Yeah, I've actually never thought about it like that.


### Passage: Authentic leadership and managing personalities [27:46–29:14, 271 words]

Note (AI): Carmel's summary of what 17 years of leading taught her about consistency, trust and handling different personalities.

Carmel Peinke, guest [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666):
> That it is not a one size fits all. I believe you have to keep your core values and your core self in check, you know, in place, not in check, in place. And I think to be an authentic leader, the person you are at home must be the person you are at work. And I don't mean for me, the person with no makeup and threatening to show my head bald just now, my characteristics must be the same. If at home, I'm a neat freak and in the office, I'm going to be a neat freak. If at home, you know, just in terms of keeping yourself, authentic, you can't be two different people because I think people, others can pick up on that and then mistrust comes in and all sorts of things. So I think you have to be as authentic as possible while keeping your eye on the ball, while being aware of the competitor landscape, while being aware of the fact that you're actually just a mom to a bunch of big adults when you're actually, to a bunch of five-year-olds housed in big adult bodies, when you're actually a five-year-old housed in an adult body too. So you're kind of corolling kids on a playground to try and get them to work together. And it's, and I don't mean to sound flippant or disrespectful. I'm just like, I, I do believe we're all five-year-olds trapped in a huge big body. So, you know, how do you engage with the different personalities and get the personalities to engage with each other for the best?


### Quotes

> "they were kind of like, could you stay on just for three months? You can keep doing what you gotta do for your business, but just, like, give us a little bit of time. and, and that's how that transition happened … And then it was three, I had an 11-month notice period by the end of it."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [04:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=293)

> "I've never written a line of code in my life. I guess I'm a salesperson, maybe a cheeky one, but I prefer the people engagement."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=404)

> "you don't have to be able to do the job to know how it needs to be done well, and you can still guide that process."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=429)

> "No man is an island. No woman either."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=448)

> "He said, if the shit hits the fan, phone me. Otherwise, just go and get it."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [18:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1107)

> "who the hell are you? Who are you becoming? And I didn't like it."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1214)

> "I need a male partner just to, you know, and I've asked nicely once and I've asked nicely twice and promised you by the third time I am going to go nuclear, but that man voice, that man persona almost needs to step in and say, oh, if you don't do it now, she's going to blow."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [22:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1341)

> "When something's a secret, it's never meant to be."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1447)

> "just go massive or give up. Don't dilly dally."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [26:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1596)

> "I think to be an authentic leader, the person you are at home must be the person you are at work."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1678)

> "I do believe we're all five-year-olds trapped in a huge big body."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [29:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1744)

> "You are exactly how the consumer behaves."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [33:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2013)

> "I just want to be fair, do you know?"
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · [34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2061)


### Claims

> "I'm still, managing the driving force behind E-Route to Market, which we launched in 2009, so that is keeping me fairly focused."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [00:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=59)

> "You mentioned earlier that I got my slot into the FMCG industry purely by chance, and when I tell you that's the truth, it's the God's honest truth."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Accidental path into FMCG · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=101)

> "So that was me in Smollan, launching new brands, and I walked into a team that was literally launching Lipton Iced Tea in this country, and it was all the experiential brand building."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Accidental path into FMCG · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=159)

> "So I was by chance explaining this challenge to a friend of mine one day, and he was a techie, and he said, Carmel, let's work together on this. And I specced the application. His team developed it."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=206)

> "One-year proof of concept, and 17 years down the line, they're still a client. Under their new face, Pioneer Foods. But yeah, and then from there, it's just really been word of mouth."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=231)

> "So the man I was dating at the time was an entrepreneur, so he just pushed and pushed and pushed and said, you've got to do this, don't be silly. And I was petrified, because Smollan was a, Smollan is, not Smollan was, is a really amazing business, really well respected in our industry."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=255)

> "He was going for six weeks, and he said, I'm leaving tonight. When I get back, your resignation must be in. You must be serving your last month's notice. And I was like, oh my goodness, and I did."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [04:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=275)

> "About a year and a half later, the CEO and I had a chat, and he raised his eyebrows at me, and he said to me, why didn't you bring this idea to our business?"
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=304)

> "You can't lead a team if your knowledge base is less than theirs, right? That for me was a big thing. And then I confronted that again, starting a tech business. I've never written a line of code in my life."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=394)

> "And both of those circumstances, I think, gave me Wisdom that I can probably be seen now as, as a grey and grumpy person, that you don't have to be able to do the job to know how it needs to be done well, and you can still guide that process."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=418)

> "I think that's the reason I joke and say this is the longest I've ever kept a job, because I'm 18 years in. They can't really fire me yet, but the reason I'm completely engaged is because I learn all the time, all day, every day."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [07:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=465)

> "I think probably my biggest barrier has been myself. And it's, it's been a lack of confidence."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=538)

> "so we've now got three applications, three front-end applications, mobile applications, and we're now working with AI."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [09:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=550)

> "But that has been a stumbling block for me because it's meant that I potentially haven't gone after the big fish as soon as I should have."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [09:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=571)

> "We were first to market, so that was just like, wow. And in fact, our very first client paid us for three years of exclusivity in their categories."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Founding E-Route to Market · [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=597)

> "There's a man in the industry who started a similar business about a year after me, but he started it in Africa. He is South African, started it up there, and then came back here. And he subsequently sold his business for an insane amount of money."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [10:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=611)

> "And I just realize that that's the difference between a man's confidence. They just, they don't have that doubt thing. They just go for the target that I deviate left or right."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [10:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=625)

> "What small step do I need to take, do today to bring me one step closer to that? And I think it's taking those moments of self-talk. Just stopping at the blank piece of paper, all my notes are in here, blank piece of paper and just jotting down what's important."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=677)

> "You have to be able to prove that you can speak the language to prove your technical competence, to prove that whatever has been developed, you know, in the back room behind you is going to deliver the goods."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [12:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=754)

> "People move from supplier to supplier. And if people have had good service from us with one employer, when they move to the next, they find us and say, you know, carry on."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=774)

> "That's where it's been good to be a woman, that you can walk in and hug somebody hello and just like be genuinely pleased to see them."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [14:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=860)

> "You pick up the phone and you say, can I come and have a cup of coffee with you? I don't want to sell you anything. I actually just want to ask you some questions. I would like you to help me understand the industry a bit better, please."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=898)

> "I sort of think that the best way to network or to build a network is through curiosity, is to just be 100% curious about the business, about how they made it work for them, what they did to be successful, you know, and just to see if anything aligns."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Networking through curiosity · [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=914)

> "if you're approaching it with the curiosity, as you mentioned, then you're getting more answers than questions, and you will walk away from that meeting knowing whether this channel is actually going to work for you or not."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Networking through curiosity · [15:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=937)

> "I don't believe I'm the knower of all things. I do not have the answers to all questions, and I firmly believe the more brains you throw at a problem, the better your solution's going to be."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=986)

> "I am driven for client delight, though. So we can collaborate all we like. If, if we are not delighting the client, the collaboration stops, because without them, we don't exist."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=995)

> "He said to me, Carmel, here's the mandate. This is the earnings that you need to achieve. This is, you know, the turnover I would recommend to get that. This is where you're going."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1093)

> "And I remember driving home one day, talking to myself out loud, cause I do do that, and saying to myself, cause I'd lost my temper. And I got into my car on the way home, and I said, who the hell are you? Who are you becoming? And I didn't like it."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Integrity and ethics · [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1203)

> "In many ways it is, because I can wake up and face the day true to me, true to my own drive and what I expect of myself, I expect of others, and the way we behave. We are not rude to anybody. We do not treat anybody with disrespect."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1301)

> "And every now and again I do think, I need a male partner just to, you know, and I've asked nicely once and I've asked nicely twice and promised you by the third time I am going to go nuclear,"
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [22:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1338)

> "It's like, no, I can't. It's, it's just unethical. You know, you're taking a salary from this company and then you're asking me to help you develop something where you're potentially going to compete with this company."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Integrity and ethics · [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1419)

> "But if two people from within the company want to meet me offsides and offsite, and it's a quiet conversation and can we do this? It's like, no, wait a minute, something's a secret."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Integrity and ethics · [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1469)

> "I would tell her to trust the fact that she got the job based on her ability and her attitude. And she should believe in that to actually let that guide her wherever she goes next."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [25:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1504)

> "And don't be afraid of a man's big voice. If what you're saying makes more sense, look him straight in the eye and say what you need to say without being rude."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1528)

> "I mean, it's probably the biggest thing that I see with female leaders is that we just don't believe in ourselves. We've got all the qualifications and all of the credentials and we've done so much work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [25:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1558)

> "And I think we have to have a, like a beginner mindset, like a experimentational mindset. Just try it. Just jump and see what happens. You know, what's the worst that can happen?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-doubt and confidence · [26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1618)

> "That it is not a one size fits all. I believe you have to keep your core values and your core self in check, you know, in place, not in check, in place. And I think to be an authentic leader, the person you are at home must be the person you are at work."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Authentic leadership · [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1666)

> "So success for me means that the leadership team are confident and capable and enabled. They must be empowered and enabled to make decisions and do, and I've gotta trust that they're doing the right thing and they've just gotta go."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Empowering future leaders · [30:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1844)

> "One of my 2026 things is to get more involved in, I need to figure out where to start, to get women more involved in the tech space, to get women more involved in data analytics, data science."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [33:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=1982)

> "And ladies, please don't think you're incompetent because trust me when it comes to consumer behavior, you are. The sample size of one, but there are 2,000 of you sitting in this room. You are exactly how the consumer behaves."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2004)

> "I'd like them to say, she drove us like hell. She expected the best from everybody all the time, but she was fair and she was honest and she gave us back everything we gave her."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Empowering future leaders · [34:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2042)

> "And then, I mean, the coaching that I do is almost exclusively for women."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Empowering future leaders · [35:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2142)

> "if I own a software company and I've never written a line of code, for the love of all things sensible, I can find a way to get other women to see this, understand it, and believe it, and do the same."
> — Carmel Peinke, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated tech · [36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1681852_high.mp3#t=2180)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

How curiosity became a technology business. In the sixth episode of On Change: Powerful Women, Petro du Pisani speaks with Carmel Peinke, founder and CEO of eRoute2Market, a technology business that helps brands understand where their products are sold and how consumers buy. Carmel Peinke built a business intelligence platform from scratch, without writing a single line of code, and kept it running for 17 years. This episode is for women climbing the corporate ladder or thinking about starting their own business who want honest proof that it is possible to lead, to grow, and to stay true to yourself while doing it. Carmel shares how she landed in the FMCG industry by pure chance, launched Lipton Iced Tea in South Africa at Smollan, and spotted a data gap that became the founding idea behind E-Route to Market, a SaaS platform that helps consumer goods brands understand where their products are sold in real time, including in township retail stores. She talks candidly about the self-doubt that slowed her down, the male competitor who sold a similar business for millions because he simply backed himself harder, and how she uses structured self-talk and a blank piece of paper to push through paralysis. The conversation covers authentic leadership, collaborative leadership style, how to build a business network through curiosity rather than selling, and what it feels like to work in a male-dominated tech environment as a woman. Carmel reflects on the moment she caught herself becoming someone she did not recognise, chose integrity over conformity, and how running her own company finally gave her the freedom to lead on her own terms. Carmel also shares her 2026 ambition: getting into universities to show female first-year students that consumer behaviour insight is a superpower in data science and analytics, and that they already are the sample size. If you have ever told yourself you are not technical enough, not confident enough, or not ready yet, this conversation is the one to listen to. Connect with Carmel Peinke on LinkedIn · E-Route to Market - Business Intelligence Platform · Smollan Group - FMCG Sales and Marketing · Pioneer Foods South Africa · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #047 Owning Your Financial Future | Ann Wilson

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/047-owning-your-financial-future/
- Date: 2026-03-05 (as at 2026-03-05)
- Guest: Ann Wilson
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Rich versus wealthy, Women and financial power, Investing simply and consistently, Paying yourself first, Enough number and worthiness, Making the career leap, Financial freedom and legacy
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1652654
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3

### About the guest: Ann Wilson

- best-selling author, speaker, and financial empowerment activist · South Africa
- Also known as The Wealth Chef. Trained as a civil engineer, she managed billion-dollar projects around the world, yet found herself struggling with debt and financial confusion before learning how to create wealth.
- Links: https://go.thewealthchef.com/change

In their own words:

> "So I did get my pilot, private pilot's license as a point. I've never become a helicopter pilot," [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=91)

> "So I did civil engineering, didn't particularly enjoy it, but I learned that I had the tenacity to, you know, push through." [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=228)

> "And just so you know, I'm now, I'm going into my 20th year of being financially free, which is amazing, which is means for 20 years I've had enough assets to pay for my lifestyle indefinitely for the rest of my life." [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=866)

> "It is a long haul, but compounding, and that's the reason why I share that I became financially free in just eight years. Some people might go, eight years? You know, I want to get there in eight months. I go, well, less than 4% of the population get there in their life." [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422)

> "And so, you know, creating my own financial freedom allowed me to then explore a whole lot of other aspects around life, freedom, expression, you know, and so that's when the wealth shift, created online marketing, books followed, and TV series." [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2240)

> "I am South African, and I came back to South Africa having lived 17 years all over Different place in the world." [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2925)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with Ann Wilson, known as The Wealth Chef, a former civil engineer who says she has been financially free for nearly 20 years. Ann describes falling into debt despite a good salary and seeing her marriage break up. She then learned that earning money and building wealth are different things. She argues that women have been kept out of long-term wealth building and are often sold complexity by the financial industry. Her advice is to pay yourself first, invest consistently in low-cost index trackers and know your 'enough number'. She also covers how to prepare for a career leap, separating self-worth from money, and her views on freedom and legacy.

**Key ideas**

- Ann argues that earning money and creating wealth are different: wealth comes from directing money flow into assets that grow in value or generate income without your involvement. ([09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=587) [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673) [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=748) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773))
- Ann says women have long managed short-term household money but have been excluded from long-term asset ownership, which is where real power sits. ([05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=332) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=504) [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162))
- Ann holds that the belief that investing is complicated is a myth fed by an industry that benefits from fear. Consistent investing in low-cost index trackers is enough. ([15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943) [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943) [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1067) [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1287))
- Paying yourself first, Ann argues, means converting some income into assets. She applies the same principle to time and energy. ([24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1466) [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) [25:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1520) [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1541))
- Ann says power in relationships should come from control of assets and agency, not from who earns the income. ([28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1692) [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1747))
- Knowing your 'enough number', individually and as a family, is central to Ann's approach, as is separating self-worth from money and status. ([31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1910) [42:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2548) [43:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2639) [44:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2677))
- Ann says financial freedom removes money and time as excuses, which forces you to face what you really want to do. ([35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2126) [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2240))

**Preparing financially to leave a job and start a business** ([39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2435) [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487))

1. Build a certain level of financial safety; you do not need to be fully financially free first.
2. Know what money is coming in and going out, and your baseline needs.
3. Treat it as a business, not a hobby: set metrics, break-even point and a timeframe.
4. Keep a cash buffer so the business need not pay you for about a year.
5. Lighten your load by cutting discretionary spending during the transition.
6. Do the inner work of facing fear of failure, rejection and not being good enough.

**Lessons**

- Ann's view is that increasing income alone does not create wealth; some of the money must be turned into assets. ([09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=587) [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773))
- Ann advises that simple, consistent, automated index investing is enough and that products promising special returns should be avoided. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1269) [54:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3288))
- Ann says to start the investing habit now, however small the amount. ([24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1617))
- The host advises women to know what is happening in their finances and not hand control to anyone else. ([21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1313) [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1642))
- Ann says to work out your enough number before building a financial plan. ([31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1910))
- Ann says to build a cash buffer and cut discretionary spending before making a career leap. ([39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487))

**Who it's for:** Women, and anyone, who earn well but feel unsure about investing, rely on partners or advisors for money decisions, or are considering leaving a job to start a business and want Ann Wilson's view on building assets.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Ann says she is going into her 20th year of being financially free. ([14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=866))
- Ann says she became financially free in eight years, and that less than 4% of the population get there. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422))
- Ann says she has about 28 years in investing. ([18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1119))
- Ann says she lived 17 years abroad before returning to South Africa. ([48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2925))
- Ann has homes in the Kruger National Park and Cape Town. ([49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2951))
- Ann spends about an hour on her personal finances, with most of her wealth in broad market index trackers. ([54:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3288))
- The host says a stockbroker sold her Steinhoff shares. ([22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1356))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is the difference between being rich and being wealthy?**
A: Ann says riches are visible status spending, while wealth is a bank of assets such as shares and property. These grow in value or generate income without you working for it. Wealthy people focus first on building assets rather than on getting more money. ([11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673) [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=748) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773))

**Q: What's the first step toward financial freedom?**
A: Ann says to keep some of the money you make and invest it. The investing habit matters most. Even ten rand or five dollars is a step and a mindset shift. ([24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1466) [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477) [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1617))

**Q: What does paying yourself first actually mean?**
A: According to Ann, it does not mean paying yourself a salary. It means some money stays in your life and is converted into an asset that works for you for life. ([25:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1520))

**Q: Do I need a financial advisor to invest?**
A: Ann is sceptical. She says most people called financial advisors are low-level salespeople selling poor products, and that an advisor cannot give you a wealth plan. She teaches consistent investing in low-cost index trackers. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1269) [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1861))

**Q: Why do women tend to be less involved in long-term investing?**
A: Ann argues women have historically handled short-term household money but been excluded from assets and investing. She adds that many were socialised to want rescuing, so they outsource finances and get lower returns. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=504) [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1119) [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162))

**Q: How much money do I need before quitting my job to start a business?**
A: Ann says you need not be financially free. She advises knowing your money flows, setting business metrics and building a cash buffer so the business need not pay you for about a year. She also advises cutting discretionary spending. ([39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349) [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487))

**Q: Should I aim to leave my kids a large inheritance?**
A: Ann says she does not believe in large financial legacies. She suggests giving children the skills to feel confident and safe around money rather than the money itself. ([51:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3100))

**Q: How long does it take to become financially free?**
A: Ann says she became financially free in eight years through compounding. She notes that less than 4% of the population get there in their lifetime and warns against quick-win thinking. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422) [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1448))


### Passage: From debt and divorce to discovering investing [05:32–08:41, 620 words]

Note (AI): Ann's own account of how debt, a broken marriage and deprivation led her to see investing and assets as the missing piece, especially for women.

Ann Wilson, guest [05:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=332):
> So there had been these micro steps, which I think led me to orient towards I don't want to be dependent on somebody else. I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't want to end up in a park bench in my old age, hoping that somebody else will look after me. that there was nothing free in that. I had got into a debt hole and realized like, hang on, there's no freedom in this. If I didn't stop work, if I, if something happened to me and I, and I didn't have the money, I was literally now working for everybody else except myself. So this illusion of freedom that came with money. And so I realized, okay, work hard, get a good job. Great. Money's coming in. Gee, don't get into debt. So these pieces of these puzzles started coming together. But I was then actually working in Hong Kong. I traveled there and it was all now about how do I work really hard? How do I spend as little as I can? Deprive myself because there was also an aspect of almost shaming. If I have no needs, no wants, and if I can keep as much money as I want, then I won't go into debt. I'll save money. And then eventually, at some point, I'll be able to do what I want to do. But for firstly, hopefully some point I'll feel safe. Because I think it's important we have the safety conversation, especially as women, which I don't think is brought into enough of, and, and, and it's, and the need for safety, emotional safety, financial safety, before we can even talk about power and self-expression and anything else, because it's a foundational aspect. So there were these components, and I realized looking back, I first wanted to be safe. But everything I was doing was contracting. It was just Not nice. I don't think I became a particularly nice person. So my marriage broke up. It was all about what we couldn't do, what we couldn't have, future side. And the money I'd been holding on to and the favors all walked out the door. And it was really a pivotal point. I was just turning, going into my thirties and went, wow, you know, I thought I was doing the right thing. I was working hard. I had the good job. I thought I was, you know, saving and not being frivolous and being like a woman, you know. A lot of the shaming language that we're also given shouldn't design anything. But shit, this didn't feel like a successful life. And that was the real point when I went, hang on, there has to be an end. Surely there's a way for me to feel financially safe and do some of the things I want to do and feel self-expressed. And so then I went, and I also knew there was a deep link with, with money and just what I did and didn't know about it. And so this was the point where I had to hang on. What has my education not taught me? What has my growing up not taught me? What's my exposure? And as a woman, fascinatingly, Petro, women are, and through centuries, are very good at the short-term money management. So often have been the one who's been responsible for the household budget, making the most of, you know, the food bill and that. But longer-term financial well-being, specifically, let's talk about assets, investing, control over where real wealth sits, as opposed to money management, is a world that most women have been excluded from because it's actually where the real power sits.


### Passage: The difference between being rich and being wealthy [11:13–13:18, 382 words]

Note (AI): Sets out Ann's core distinction: status spending versus owning assets that grow in value or generate income without the owner's effort.

Ann Wilson, guest [11:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=673):
> maybe let me start with what I sort of see as the difference between maybe being rich versus being wealthy. So riches or richness, or often we, we are a society and we use our visual senses explicitly to validate our world. So things that we can tangibly see, and we see this more and more now, we talk about sex, success and, and power. what car does that person drive? What home do they live in? What holidays they have? What does their Instagram feed look like? What does their jewelry, their handbag, all of the status signaling that we have? And so we go, oh, well that must be rich and, and around whatever our value structure is. Maybe the kids go to a certain school. And then so we see this, this relationship with money, buying something. So we think that is, well, so if we have more money, we can have more of these things, and therefore we made it, and now we'll finally be enough and worthy and successful and safe. That the challenges we're focusing on money versus wealthy is actually when we are not having to create that money flow. So wealthy is when there's this, this bank of assets, and we can talk about actual financial assets. So owning and controlling shares in companies, real estate that can grow in value. So an asset is something that can grow in value and or generate income, not necessarily both, preferably both. So it grows in capital value, it can generate income without us having to be involved in that exchange. So the wealth comes from we are, we get to control those. And so it's like this vast resource of teams creating and generating money that we're going to get to use. But this is the difference. Wealthy people understand that they need to focus first on building the assets. People who will constantly stay chasing riches will focus on how do I get money. And this can then be expanded in so many ways. And this is really such a foundational difference. It's why, yes, we need to be investing. We've got to take some of the money we have and turn that into assets. Because without doing that, you will never be wealthy.


### Passage: Unlearning the myth that investing is complicated [15:43–17:34, 330 words]

Note (AI): Explains how fear, the appeal of complexity and scam culture keep people from simple investing, as Ann sees it.

Ann Wilson, guest [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943):
> I think one of the biggest and hardest ones for us to unlearn is our, our fixation with complexity. And so when it comes to investing and managing money, we've been fed a whole lot of BS by an industry that wants us, or humans, with, you know, the, the population, but majority women. To feel afraid that they're going to fuck this up. And just so that there's a double-edged sword here. So one, there's an industry that wants people to be afraid because then it's like, well, this is so fundamentally important because money weaves through every aspect of our life. And one of the greatest fears that people have is ending up destitute, ending up on a park bench and, and, you know, having to, you know, and being almost the ultimate failure in life because money not only gives us all of these external things, but defines our worthiness, our sense of self-esteem, purpose, blah, blah, blah. So it does weave through all these things. So now, if we mess up the money management, all heaven forbid, the investing, then what does that say about us? And so there's this aspect that one, it must be complicated, scary, gonna get it wrong, overwhelming. We fade that, but we also love to think that something that's more complicated must be better. You know, the next thing, more buttons. And so there's these Things that also drive fear and greed that make people think it's more complicated than it is. So there's something telling them it is more complicated, but going, oh, well, it must. But also the third thing that this comes, it impacts is makes people vulnerable to the hustle or the scam culture or, hey, I've just discovered this special secret that's going to give you the hack that this weekend you do this and you will be the few who ride the wave of this one investment, where people then fall for the scam.


### Passage: Paying yourself first as a habit and mindset [24:26–27:16, 505 words]

Note (AI): Ann's first-step advice: keep and invest part of what you earn, and apply the same priority to time, money and energy.

Ann Wilson, guest [24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1466):
> It'll say, and this is very much for women. If you Have to keep some of the money that you make. First step, and then and invest it. The investing habit, and it's a habit, is the most important one because it's not just about that seed of money, because it needs time. It needs to, it's like a seed that gets planted, it then grows in value. That money grows in value and compounding starts working. So now you've got time working for you, but there is a radical mental shift that happens when you say, not only there is enough for me to keep some of my life, but also my financial wellbeing matters, and it's the most important bill I pay first. So paying yourself first is a phrase that's used a lot, but it's deeply misunderstood. And as business owners, many people think, oh, well, that means I pay myself a salary. No, no. Paying yourself first means the, some of that money stays in your life and it gets converted into an asset that will work for you for the rest of your life. It stays in your life and grows. But there's a deeper side, because this gain comes to our power, our agency. Because then we can say, well, how am I paying myself first? We've all got three ingredients. Just three inputs to create the lived experience we have. We've got our time, our money, and our energy, basically our life force. That's all. Money is just a proxy for value that we get to exchange. That's what it is. If we are not prepared to pay ourselves first, time, money, and energy in our life, and then we wonder why we're not, why we're resentful, exhausted, we're not getting the results we want, always look there. Where are you putting your energy? Are you spending some of your energy on the projects, the things that you say Important to you. Are you putting some of that money into your financial wellbeing and ensuring your financial future is in place? Are you spending your time on the things that matter and you first? And as women, if you're not prepared to do that, this radical shift can feel so selfish. People say, but, but Ann, I've got to look after the kids, I've got to pay the school fees, I've got to do this. everybody else first. And again, we're taught, we're taught that being a good girl means sacrifice, martyrdom. We've been passed this martyrish story down into generation, and we're the first generation that had the full resources to do it, but we've got to change the pattern. And so this is the most radical important step. And whether it's ten rand, five dollars, it, it doesn't matter. It's, it's a, it's a step. It's a mindset shift, and then it's a habit. It's a discipline that no matter what, these things come before everything else, and that muscle starts growing. And that changes everything.


### Passage: How to prepare financially before leaving a job [39:09–41:23, 468 words]

Note (AI): Practical steps for anyone considering a business: know money flows, set metrics, treat it as a business, and build a year's cash buffer.

Ann Wilson, guest [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349):
> You don't have to wait until you're financially free to start a business or do those passions. I think it is to go, I think it is important that we have a certain level of financial safety. So a lot of people want to start a business or transition and they, they fed a lot of stories like leap and the parachute will open. No, sometimes it doesn't. Don't be fucking stupid. You know, no, there is, and so there is aspects of financial wellbeing. It doesn't have to be financially free, but if somebody wants to start a business, know what do you need? What is going to be your baseline? Do you have a relationship with your money where you know what's coming in and what's going out? Because if you don't, It's like having staff that you don't know what their job is, and you're paying them every month. I mean, that's just not a good business owner. You know, money is a resource. You need to know, are you directing it, where it's coming from, where it's going? Because then you have a choice, and you then can say, okay, how many months am I going to give myself? What are my metrics? What is going to be success? And this is super important that we actually know what, and when it comes to creating a business, I was very, very clear with myself that this was not a charity, and that also I had to apply the same principles that the, the business needed to be a financial success. It needed to be self-sustaining because I was, I wanted to employ people, there was agency around this, and it not, must not need me to, you know, feed it as And there's nothing wrong if people want a hobby, but then be honest and it's a hobby. Don't call it a business. And so if it's a business, you know what its metrics are, and you know what is needed to break even, to pay certain amounts, and how long is that going to take you, and what is the plan to get there. And it might have variables, but then in your personal financial position to able to make that jump, say, okay, let me give myself a contingency. If you're building a home, you'll know what your budget is, how many rooms it's going to have, what's your contingency you have, and then you work within that. The business is the same. And then say, okay, well, I'm going to make sure that my business is free of the burden of having to pay me for, let's say, a year. So how much money do I need for that year? Let me make sure I've got that cash buffer in place.


### Passage: The enough rock and separating worth from money [42:28–44:48, 513 words]

Note (AI): A personal story of how Ann dealt with feeling not enough, which she says enabled her leap into the Wealth Chef business.

Ann Wilson, guest [42:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2548):
> But I was sitting and I realized I was just moving the deck chairs. I kept doing another course. I kept waiting for this. I wasn't quite ready. Let me move these things. And I sat and went, hang on, what is going on? And it, and I sat and I felt in my, in my body, there was this felt like this big rock inside of me. Every time that, like, that knot in my stomach, I went, you know, it was like I'd found this perfect piece of land to build my beautiful home in the most idyllic place. I had everything available, but there was this big frigging boulder in the middle of that field. And so now I needed, I needed to get rid of it. And I'd bought into this story in a way that, you know, the next thing to be healed or sorted or, or the not enough, not really enough. So this next thing to just avoid. So I went, well, what if I don't have to get rid of this? I don't have to get rid of the not, my not enoughness. What if it's just going, well, I can build my home around it. I can make a feature. I can make it beautiful. I don't have to coat it over. And I think, you know, I'm going to go off, I was living in Paris. I'm going to go off and find a stone to represent this. And I went off with my dog. She was loving. She has a midday walk. And, then I started looking down and there was these stones all over the place. I was going, but which is the right one? I mean, this is important. I mustn't get it wrong. And then eventually about 20 minutes in, I went, oh my God, I'm getting hooked again. And I looked down and I said, okay, whichever stone is nearest to me. And there were two there. Oh, you've got to be joking, universe. I picked them up. I said, threw them up. Whichever one lands close is going to be good enough. And I carry, I still have that rock 15 years down the line. No, not quite. 12 years down the line. And I call it my little enough rock. And it's a reminder that I'm never going to feel. And that's okay, because there's nothing outside of me that can make me enough. And this relates to our money as well and our business, and it's okay to feel that fear and get hooked into those status things and stuff. It's not a judgment, it's just part of one of our, some of our human needs. But when I could separate out my desire for expression, curiosity to create side from my sense of deep worthiness, and realize, oh, there is no amount of money we can have, there's no outfit we can have, there's no nails that can ever define my enough, because it's not definable by something outside of us. We already are.


### Quotes

> "I wanted to be a helicopter pilot. I actually, so I'm giving away my age, I think there's a TV series called Chips and there was this female helicopter pilot. And so there was always the seed of what, of women that were doing something that wasn't the norm. So there was always this part of me already early on challenging what was expected, you know, to be the, the range of careers that was either supposedly what you were meant to do. So absolutely, that came straight to me. So I did get my pilot, private pilot's license as a point."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=63)

> "I think it's really important we also talk about the, and maybe the, the, the aspect that it really is we brought up that first and foremost, it's wanting security. It's wanting to not be vulnerable. It's wanting to have agency in ways, you know, it can use these high-level questions, but there's this, I think these steps before."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=210)

> "I was literally now working for everybody else except myself. So this illusion of freedom that came with money."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=357)

> "Nobody can look at me wandering down the street, generally looking like a bag lady most of the time and say, this is what her net worth is."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [13:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=801)

> "this is why most women would prefer to outsource their financial wellbeing to a partner, to a financial advisor. They'll say, oh, I just don't have the time. It's too busy, overwhelming. Which is why Most women are getting significantly lower returns than they should be on their portfolios that they do have invested. They have no idea whether they're actually ever going to be reached a point where they'll be financially okay, let alone free or be able to thrive, and have deep levels of anxiety because they know there's a disconnection."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162)

> "I go, no, you just pre-sold a fucking lucky packet with nothing in it."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1269)

> "consistency and boring is beautiful. It really is when it comes to investing in your finance."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1287)

> "It's the lottery mentality. It's the quick win, which guarantees you'll have poverty for life."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1448)

> "Money is just a proxy for value that we get to exchange."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1552)

> "if you are not financially empowered, you will be overpowered."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1692)

> "many people say, oh, they would love to do this or that or write that book or travel if only they had the money and the time. And we all go, oh yes, because money and time are such convenient excuses for us to not do the things we say we want to do. So now when you give yourself financial freedom, those two excuses are ripped out from under you. You go, well, you don't have to work, so you've just, and you've got the money. So now what's your excuse for not writing that book, not going on doing the thing you want?"
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [35:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2119)

> "And, and you, another aspect, really go, what about my sexuality? Do I even understand that? And eros and power, money and power and sex are very, very interesting elements. Can't even express and know what I want. So this opening led to, and it's been such an amazing and continues to be amazing journey of deep inquiry as to who actually am I and what would leap do I really want?"
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [38:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2287)

> "leap and the parachute will open. No, sometimes it doesn't. Don't be fucking stupid."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [39:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2363)

> "there's nothing wrong if people want a hobby, but then be honest and it's a hobby. Don't call it a business."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [40:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2435)

> "Because that's what having assets doing the work gives us the, the gift of our time, which is the most precious thing we have, yet is the thing we squander the most."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2865)

> "the Good Samaritan needed money to be the Good Samaritan. We need, as women, money also to be able to express these things, not just our time."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · [52:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3171)


### Claims

> "So I did get my pilot, private pilot's license as a point. I've never become a helicopter pilot,"
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Origin story · [01:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=91)

> "I chose engineering, not because I, I gave a shit how a piece of steel bent or a cube crushed. It was because my father had died short, shortly before I went to university."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=158)

> "So I did civil engineering, didn't particularly enjoy it, but I learned that I had the tenacity to, you know, push through."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Origin story · [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=228)

> "So I went into a very big debt hole, and that's really when, I guess, the inquiry for me started becoming, hang on, what is the difference between being financially empowered versus earning money?"
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=291)

> "So my marriage broke up. It was all about what we couldn't do, what we couldn't have, future side. And the money I'd been holding on to and the favors all walked out the door."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Turning point · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=430)

> "But longer-term financial well-being, specifically, let's talk about assets, investing, control over where real wealth sits, as opposed to money management, is a world that most women have been excluded from because it's actually where the real power sits."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=504)

> "Earning money and creating wealth are completely different things. You need healthy money flow. So where you need money flowing through your life, but it's how that is then directed determines whether you get to live and create a wealthy life."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=587)

> "So an asset is something that can grow in value and or generate income, not necessarily both, preferably both. So it grows in capital value, it can generate income without us having to be involved in that exchange."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [12:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=748)

> "Wealthy people understand that they need to focus first on building the assets. People who will constantly stay chasing riches will focus on how do I get money."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Rich versus wealthy · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=773)

> "And just so you know, I'm now, I'm going into my 20th year of being financially free, which is amazing, which is means for 20 years I've had enough assets to pay for my lifestyle indefinitely for the rest of my life."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=866)

> "I think one of the biggest and hardest ones for us to unlearn is our, our fixation with complexity. And so when it comes to investing and managing money, we've been fed a whole lot of BS by an industry that wants us, or humans, with, you know, the, the population, but majority women."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=943)

> "Because it's simple, it's not simplistic. Because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. It's not complicated. It's like we all pretty much know if you want to lose weight, you need fewer calories, then your body's burning."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1067)

> "And 20 odd years, 28 years odd in investing, being in this world, I still have to be careful of, of the part of me that wants to be rescued."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1119)

> "this is why most women would prefer to outsource their financial wellbeing to a partner, to a financial advisor. They'll say, oh, I just don't have the time. It's too busy, overwhelming. Which is why Most women are getting significantly lower returns than they should be on their portfolios that they do have invested."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [19:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1162)

> "You know, one of the things I teach in, in my Wealth Builder Club and through you've read the Wealthy Book is consistent regular investing in a low cost index tracker. That sounds as boring as hell. Is going to get you there."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1242)

> "And after month three, I was like, hold on a second, I'm paying you and you're not performing well because I've been told that I should have ETFs, which is your, your, I read somewhere that they consistently beat the markets."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [21:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1313)

> "At the same time, that same stockbroker sold Steinhoff to me, so I was really angry with him like about two or three months, two or three years later, you know?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1356)

> "It is a long haul, but compounding, and that's the reason why I share that I became financially free in just eight years. Some people might go, eight years? You know, I want to get there in eight months. I go, well, less than 4% of the population get there in their life."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1422)

> "The investing habit, and it's a habit, is the most important one because it's not just about that seed of money, because it needs time. It needs to, it's like a seed that gets planted, it then grows in value."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1477)

> "Paying yourself first means the, some of that money stays in your life and it gets converted into an asset that will work for you for the rest of your life."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [25:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1520)

> "We've all got three ingredients. Just three inputs to create the lived experience we have. We've got our time, our money, and our energy, basically our life force. That's all."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [25:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1541)

> "And whether it's ten rand, five dollars, it, it doesn't matter. It's, it's a, it's a step. It's a mindset shift, and then it's a habit."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Paying yourself first · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1617)

> "Absolutely need to know, and don't hand it over to anybody else. Okay, don't expect that somebody else is going to be managing, even if you join, if you, if you're jointly putting stuff together, really know what's going on."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women and financial power · [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1642)

> "often what you'll see is the, there's an unconscious, story that the person who earns the money has the power. So that earner, power comes with earning. And we have to rewrite that because no, power comes with Control of assets and agency."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1747)

> "Don't ask any financial advisor any question because most of the, most things that are called financial advisors are odd, low-level salespeople selling people crap products, quite frankly."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1861)

> "And with that, start saying, then it's first understanding what we want, then working on, well, what does that actually mean for individually, but also as a family unit, what I call our enough numbers. We've got to know our numbers."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Enough number and worthiness · [31:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=1910)

> "There was a period I realized, oh my God, I thought I needed to be like this fake male in order to be okay in this, you know, many days I was the only woman in the room and big projects."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Women and financial power · [34:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2074)

> "And we all go, oh yes, because money and time are such convenient excuses for us to not do the things we say we want to do. So now when you give yourself financial freedom, those two excuses are ripped out from under you."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [35:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2126)

> "And so, you know, creating my own financial freedom allowed me to then explore a whole lot of other aspects around life, freedom, expression, you know, and so that's when the wealth shift, created online marketing, books followed, and TV series."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2240)

> "You don't have to wait until you're financially free to start a business or do those passions. I think it is to go, I think it is important that we have a certain level of financial safety."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [39:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2349)

> "And then say, okay, well, I'm going to make sure that my business is free of the burden of having to pay me for, let's say, a year. So how much money do I need for that year? Let me make sure I've got that cash buffer in place."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [41:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2469)

> "I always say to people, any transition, lighten your load. Lighten your load. Cut back the shit that is discretionary."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Making the career leap · [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2487)

> "And I carry, I still have that rock 15 years down the line. No, not quite. 12 years down the line. And I call it my little enough rock."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Enough number and worthiness · [43:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2639)

> "there is no amount of money we can have, there's no outfit we can have, there's no nails that can ever define my enough, because it's not definable by something outside of us."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Enough number and worthiness · [44:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2677)

> "we've got a, a lot of people in our Wellful the Club who are financially free, who now got that, but they stay in. And we have a session we call those, those groups, the Feasters, because we're at the feasting phase."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [47:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2825)

> "I am South African, and I came back to South Africa having lived 17 years all over Different place in the world."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2925)

> "And so I have a beautiful home in the Kruger National Park, where there's been crazy floods. So freedom means that I can contribute to things that are, deeply passionate about conservation, and anti-poaching and preservation"
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [49:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=2951)

> "I go, why, why would you be so cruel? Why would you take away the opportunity for your children to self-express, to explore? Money is just a value exchange. Why don't you, instead of giving them money, give them the skills to feel confident, safe, and supportive around this means to express themselves?"
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Financial freedom and legacy · [51:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3100)

> "You know, Petro, I maybe spend an hour on my personal financial stuff these days. I keep having to remind myself not to fiddle, don't overcomplicate. Bulk of my, my wealth is sits in broad market index trackers and it's good enough because the point is to get out there and live."
> — Ann Wilson, guest · topic: Investing simply and consistently · [54:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1652654_high.mp3#t=3288)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

How women can take control of their financial destiny. This is the fifth episode of the Powerful Women series of On Change, where we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have chose to lead on their own terms. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with Ann Wilson, best-selling author, speaker, and financial empowerment activist, also known as The Wealth Chef. Ann’s journey to financial freedom began unexpectedly. Trained as a civil engineer, she managed billion-dollar projects around the world. Yet despite her professional success, she found herself struggling with debt and financial confusion. That realisation sparked a powerful personal transformation, from earning income to learning how to create wealth. In this conversation, Ann unpacks the critical difference between being rich and being wealthy, and explains why true financial freedom comes from building assets that generate income without constant effort. She shares practical insights about investing, the power of paying yourself first, and why understanding your “enough number” is key to designing a financially free life. Ann also speaks candidly about why women have historically been excluded from wealth creation and why its essential that women take ownership of their financial futures. *** As a special gift to On Change listeners, Ann has made her 5-day Wealth-made-Simple available free of charge. Use this link to access it: https://go.thewealthchef.com/change This 5-day Wealth Made Simple Challenge is designed to help you define what ‘Wealthy’ truly means for you. Discover the precise amount of money required to live the life you desire, identify your unique financial freedom number needed to attain this lifestyle, understand what you need to be investing in to create it, learn the specific investment strategy to achieve your goals, recognise what your potential obstacles are, and master the methods to overcome them. Do the Wealth-Made-Simple Challenge · Connect with Ann · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #046 Lessons from a serial entrepreneur | Catherine Wijnberg

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/046-lessons-from-a-serial-entrepreneur/
- Date: 2025-12-24 (as at 2025-12-24)
- Guest: Catherine Wijnberg
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Entrepreneurial courage, Losing everything and rebuilding, Founding Fetola, Purpose-driven leadership, Burnout and self-care, Redefining success, Lessons from developing nations
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1630817
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3

### About the guest: Catherine Wijnberg

- CEO · Fetola
- Serial entrepreneur and adventurer who has built five businesses across three countries. Grew up in Zambia, studied biochemistry and agriculture, and launched Fetola in 2006 to support youth and women entrepreneurs across Southern Africa.

In their own words:

> "I, I'm born and raised in Zambia, so I did my primary school there and then was shipped off a very unhappily To boarding school in England." [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=144)

> "I chose to study initially biochemistry because my grandfather was a professor of biochemistry, and then when I got there, I realized all the good parties were in the agriculture faculty, so I changed to agriculture," [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=157)

> "I was agricultural economist for, for the Zambian Farmers, Union. And at the bright age of 27, you know, when you think you know it all, right?" [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=252)

> "So, you know, like nine out of ten of our businesses are still in business ten years later, which is like phenomenal." [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=798)

> "I've helped thousands of people to change the way they think about themselves, to believe in themselves, and to build businesses, that go on and change lives for, for other people." [35:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2132)

> "so I was asked to do some research, for the Startup 20, part of the G20 component, and I was asked to do a strategy, with, Andy Network, so the Aspen Network are development entrepreneurs," [36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with Catherine Wijnberg, CEO of Fetola, about a life of serial entrepreneurship. Catherine recounts growing up in Zambia and changing her studies from biochemistry to agriculture. At 27 she persuaded Zambia's leaders to double the maize price. She then started an import business, lost everything in 1998, and founded Fetola to help women and youth build lasting businesses. She discusses purpose-driven leadership, authenticity, her recent burnout, and how she now defines success. She also covers the thinking skills future leaders will need, advice for mid-career pivots, and her Startup 20 research into what developing nations do better than South Africa.

**Key ideas**

- Catherine believes entrepreneurs are born, with an inherent ability to spot opportunity and the courage to leap without waiting to be perfect. ([07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=449) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=466) [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=489))
- Catherine calls losing everything in 1998 her greatest gift, because it revealed talents she had been sitting on. ([08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=519) [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=546) [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=589))
- Catherine argues that empowerment means putting people in control of their own money, and that teaching entrepreneurship creates generational change. ([11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=690) [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=723) [12:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=742))
- Catherine says a clear hundred-year vision and clear values let Fetola walk away from misaligned work, even when fear about money makes that harder. ([18:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1094) [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1132) [19:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1167))
- Catherine holds that a leader's energy sets the tone of the business, and she uses herself as an 'experiment of one' barometer. ([17:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1044) [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1320))
- Catherine argues that future leaders need to think, ask the right questions and synthesise information, while human connection stays central. ([30:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1813) [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1840) [31:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1884))
- Catherine's research found that successful developing nations foster strong local economies, world-class value chains of small businesses, and collaboration. ([36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211) [37:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2265) [38:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2313) [38:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2338))

**Lessons**

- Catherine suggests acting on opportunities before you are fully prepared, because waiting for perfection lets others jump in first. ([07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=449) [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=466))
- According to Catherine, knowing your values and vision clearly is what lets you stick to your own rules in lean, fearful periods. ([18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1132) [19:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1167))
- Catherine advises entering rooms as yourself rather than as an expert, to avoid setting yourself up for criticism. ([21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1264))
- Catherine says recovery from burnout takes time; she gave herself ten months rather than expecting a ten-day retreat to fix her. ([22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1347) [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1350) [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1456))
- Catherine argues it is never too late to pivot, because people are often bolder when they have nothing to lose. ([33:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2036) [34:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2054) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2081))

**Who it's for:** Aspiring and established entrepreneurs, women weighing a mid- or late-career pivot, leaders at risk of burnout, and people interested in enterprise development and economic growth in South Africa and Southern Africa.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- At 27, as agricultural economist for the Zambian Farmers Union, Catherine motivated the doubling of Zambia's maize price. ([04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=252) [06:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=362))
- Catherine says she and her husband lost everything in 1998, the year she turned forty. ([09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=546))
- Catherine says Fetola's full name is Fetola Moho, meaning 'changing together'. ([15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=908))
- Catherine says nine out of ten Fetola-supported businesses are still in business ten years later. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=798))
- Catherine says Fetola has about thirty-five staff in Cape Town and more than a hundred people including part-timers. ([21:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1310))
- Catherine did research for the Startup 20, part of the G20, and says roughly eighty percent of China's economy is local. ([36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211) [37:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2265))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Are entrepreneurs born or made?**
A: Catherine Wijnberg believes they are born, with an inherent ability to spot an opportunity and the courage to leap. She also says very entrepreneurial people can be gamblers, and that she is more of a business leader. ([08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=489) [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=642) [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=676))

**Q: How did Catherine Wijnberg start Fetola?**
A: After losing everything in 1998 and working for someone else, she pitched a strategy to the Old Mutual Foundation. That let her move from a paid job straight into a first contract. She took over a dormant company, Fetola Moho, meaning 'changing together'. ([09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=546) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=690) [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=878) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=908))

**Q: What is Fetola's track record with entrepreneurs?**
A: Catherine says nine out of ten of Fetola's businesses are still in business ten years later. She says she has helped thousands of people build businesses that change other lives. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=798) [35:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2132))

**Q: How can a leader recover from burnout?**
A: Catherine took time out on a retreat in Greece. There she realised ten days could not fix her, so she gave herself ten months to transition. ([22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1347) [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1350) [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1456))

**Q: Is it too late to change career in midlife?**
A: Catherine says it is never too late. She believes we have many lives in one life, and that people are bolder when they have nothing to lose. ([33:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2036) [34:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2054) [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2081))

**Q: What skills will leaders need in an AI world?**
A: Catherine says leaders will need to think, ask the right questions, step back to synthesise, and keep moving. She also expects a counterculture valuing slower, more human-connected life. ([30:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1813) [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1840))

**Q: What can South Africa learn from other developing countries?**
A: From her Startup 20 research, Catherine points to strong local economies (China's economy is about 80% local), world-class value chains of small businesses, and collaboration. She also names education and access to finance. ([36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211) [36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211) [37:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2265) [38:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2313) [38:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2338))

**Q: How does Catherine Wijnberg define success?**
A: She has always measured success by impact, not income. After twenty years she now wants a better balance, saying belonging, intimate relations and friendships are as important as impact. ([27:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1668) [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1748))


### Passage: Doubling Zambia's maize price at age 27 [04:05–06:27, 439 words]

Note (AI): Catherine's account of persuading a minister, the president and parliament to double the maize price shows her early influence on national economic policy.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=245):
> I can tell that story. so my very first, not quite my first job, but one of my first jobs I took, I was agricultural economist for, for the Zambian Farmers, Union. And at the bright age of 27, you know, when you think you know it all, right? At 27, I was, Was tasked with the, with the, with the job of, setting the maize price or, or, or motivating for, for the maize price. And in my wisdom, I decided the maize price should be doubled. And done all the numbers, crunched all the numbers, and clearly it should be doubled. And so I have had to go through a journey, first of all, to the Minister of Agriculture, who was a, a general, a, a male general, and he was very, unhappy with this pipsqueak young woman waltzing into his office saying, no, no, we need to double the maize price. And so he said, okay, fine, you know, we'll do that. And I had to motivate then go to, Go and speak to the president. So I had to go to presidential house, state house, and persuade the president that we should double the maize price. And I had this great, I was a great, orator and very persuasive, and I explained to him, no, if we double the maize price, every corner of Zambia would be planted to maize, and Zambia would become the first exporting, net exporting nation in Africa, black nation in Africa. And that was very appealing to him. So he said, yes, great idea. but I had to then go to, to parliament and, expl, you know, motivate there in parliament. So I then went, and I said the same thing, you know, you need to do this, we're going to be the most amazing country in the, on the continent, we're going to be the first, net exporter, and everybody said it was a great idea, except for the one dissenting voice, which was the Minister of Finance, who said, well, we can't actually afford it. But everybody said, no, it doesn't matter, that we can't afford it, it's not relevant, and it was passed. And so at the age of 27, I basically changed the entire direction of the country, and they did, in fact, double the maize price, and that, in fact, was the first step towards opening of the economy in, in, in Zambia. So at the young age of 27, I had this rather scary experience, actually, of changing a nation. yeah, it was a little bit, it was a little bit overwhelming, actually, to


### Passage: From hyperinflation to an import business [06:32–08:28, 360 words]

Note (AI): Shows how she spotted an opportunity in the foreign-exchange auction and her view that entrepreneurs are born with the courage to leap.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=392):
> that, not long after that, because in doubling the maize price, I had inadvertently completely unsettled the entire, economic structure in the country, and we, the country went into hyperinflation, and the World Bank came, stepped in and said, hang on, we're gonna cut off the money supply. And so what they did is, is they changed the way that you accessed dollars, because up until that time, You would only get dollars you had to apply through this special committee, that allocated money to kind of friends of friends. And so they started an auction system. And by the second week of the auction system, my husband and I were in business because we said, okay, this is an opportunity. We'll bid on, we'll bid on this for an exchange in order to access, foreign exchange in order to bring in goods, for the farming community that we were embedded in. And so that then began the starting point of this import company. We knew nothing about finance. We knew nothing about importing. We knew nothing about auctions. And we really just learned on the job. So it's kind of the classic example of seeing an opportunity and just jumping in, because if we'd waited in order to be perfect, we probably would never have done it. In fact, if we'd waited and looked at all the reasons not to do it, we probably never would have done it. And in that waiting, other people have jumped in. And so that was the start of a very successful, import.

Petro du Pisani, host [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=477):
> Yeah, it almost sounds like that entrepreneurial spirits, you know, you see an opportunity and you jump in even though you don't know all the answers yet.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=485):
> Yeah, it's exactly that. I think that you, and that's maybe, people often ask me, you know, are entrepreneurs born or made? And I, and I really believe they're born, because there's this inherent ability to spot an opportunity, number one, but also having the courage to leap. And that's a classic case of we just leapt off a cliff. We had, we had no clue. and, and learned on the journey, so.


### Passage: Losing everything at forty and starting again [08:39–10:25, 306 words]

Note (AI): The turning point she calls the catalyst for Fetola: losing her businesses and marriage and discovering her own talents.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=519):
> Yeah, so there's a longer story in that, and that is over the, over the next ten years or more, my husband, at the time we moved to South Africa, so we started an export business from here, and then we had farms, and I had an apartment hotel, and we had all of this kind of suite of businesses. And then through a series of circumstances outside of my control, we actually lost everything. And so in 1998, yeah, we literally, we'd lost everything. I went, in the period of a year, actually, in the year that I turned forty, I celebrated my fortieth birthday, with great gratitude, beautiful husband, beautiful children, wonderful life, and nine months later, I had the clothes on my back and the three children. And so I had to start again. And part of that journey through, through pain is great opportunity for growth. And of course, I went, I'll gloss over the painful period, but in, within, I think it was about four years later, I really had this awakening that I was put on earth to do more. And the gift of losing everything was that I suddenly realized that I had all of these talents that I've been sitting on. I'd, I'd been, I'd been a support, I'd been the, the half of a, half of a team, half of a team of two, and I was forced to now be a team of one. And in that, recognizing, first of all, that I had this desire to do stuff. I wanted to make a difference. And to my surprise, I had the ability to do it. And that then, I, I, I had the courage to, I had the courage. Well, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, ignorance, whatever. I, I had the courage to start.


### Passage: The spark behind Fetola and generational change [11:30–13:06, 302 words]

Note (AI): Explains Fetola's founding logic: empowerment means control of money, and entrepreneurship creates change across generations.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=690):
> Well, there was a period, I mean, I was working for somebody else. I mean, I was the single parent, single, sole breadwinner for three children. So I was working, for somebody else. And I kind of got frustrated that my full potential wasn't, wasn't being realized. You know, I realized that by working, working for somebody else, you never get to express your full self. And at the time, there was a lot of talk about women's empowerment. Everything, this is, so this is in 2006, so everything was about women's empowerment. It was like the big, the big conversation at the time. And I thought to myself, you know, you're not, you haven't empowered anybody unless you've helped them, you put them in control of the money that they make, the money in their pocket. And initially it was like, okay, I'll help people to be better, you know, women to be better financially savvy. And then I thought, but that's not enough. If I teach them to be an entrepreneur, I teach them not only to be able to make and make and master the money for themselves today, but that it creates generational change. Because if one person's, if a mother's been an entrepreneur, their children will know about that, and the chances are they will then become entrepreneurs. And kind of my dream was to say, you know, today it might be the woman selling tomatoes on the corner. Tomorrow, her son might have the little spaza store, and in the next generation, his daughter might own the next pick and pay. And I actually had that experience once where somebody literally came in, and he, was one of our entrepreneurs, and his mother had been selling tomatoes on the corner, and it was just so thrilling.


### Passage: Hitting burnout and giving herself ten months [22:27–24:41, 463 words]

Note (AI): A candid account of a resilient leader recognising burnout, taking a retreat and reframing recovery as a longer transition.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1347):
> So I have to say, I always thought burnout was for sissies. I never thought, I never thought I would, I would hit that. I never thought it was for me. And in fact, just recently I took time out, I took some time out, I went to Greece on a retreat because I recognized that I'd got to that point. yeah, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not great, great at doing that. I, I think I'm very resilient, I'm, I'm very driven, I'm very mindful, my, my mission, my purpose has always been my kind of my North Star. and maybe it's now because I'm getting to a point in my career where I want to move on, but not because I have to, I don't, you know, I, it's just because if you're going to create a hundred year business at some stage, you gotta, you know, you gotta find another, another bunch of people to take it over. But that's definitely a step change in, in my life, and I think that as that personal alignment to the vision has now become a question mark, I think that's when something like burnout breaks through. and maybe it's cause it's an, it's an allowing, maybe you, I don't know. I'm kind of mumbling here, but I think that, I think, Bernard, you, you, I don't know if Bernard just hits you, and maybe it hits some people earlier than others, but yeah, I never thought it would hit me, so.

Petro du Pisani, host [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1429):
> But you did something to... I did something to, I took some time out. I took, in fact, I'll

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [23:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1434):
> tell you the story. So I, I decided, so somebody said to me, hey, there's, there's this friend of mine have got this retreat in, in Greece, and I thought, oh, that sounds like a good idea. I didn't read anything about it. I knew nothing about it, but I said it felt like a good idea. And then when I got there, I suddenly realized, oh my word, you know, people are going to expect me to go back all healed and fixed. And I've like been here for like ten days. And I said to myself, that's crazy. You can't fix in ten days. I need ten months. And so then what I said to myself, I'm going to give myself the ten months. I'm not going to expect to be healed and perfect in ten days because that was just putting more pressure on me. And so I said, okay, I'm going to give myself ten months. So I've kind of given myself ten months of love, to make a transition from where I was to where I'm going. The next cliff that I'm going to jump off.


### Passage: Research into what developing nations get right [36:51–39:48, 536 words]

Note (AI): Sets out her Startup 20 research findings: local economies, world-class value chains, collaboration, education and access to finance.

Catherine Wijnberg, guest [36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211):
> so I was asked to do some research, for the Startup 20, part of the G20 component, and I was asked to do a strategy, with, Andy Network, so the Aspen Network are development entrepreneurs, and they said, okay, can you facilitate a conversation about how do you create successful startups? And my starting point was to say, well, I don't have the answers to that. Let me go out and look at what other countries are doing around the world. And I chose six leading developing nations in the world, and then six in Africa. And the cross-cutting information there was, if I just say there were six things, if I can remember them, the first one certainly is, if we look at China, so if we look at China, they are the gold standard. They're managing to grow a thriving economy. What I didn't know was that eighty percent of their economy is actually local economy, only twenty percent roughly is export orientated. And so they have a very strong local economy, and we haven't done that. We haven't actually, we, we have many people, but our local economy is very, very weak. We have a tiny, like eighty percent of our economy goes through a tiny sliver of businesses up in the top end. and so the, one, one of the things all of these countries have done better than us, have done well, is that they've really fostered a strong local, local economy. the second thing, again, if you look, look at China, is that as an exporting nation, most of their exporting, products are built through a whole value chain of small businesses. And so there, if you're going to have a product that's world-class, every single entrepreneur along the line needs to be world-class. And I don't think that we've done that. We've just said, oh, let's give you a catering, an opportunity, or let's give you a, a logistics opportunity. We've not thought world-class, so we're not thinking as a nation, how can we be the best? And so I think that's the second thing that we're get- that we couldn't do better with. The third is collaboration. So in, in South Africa, we're not great at collaborating, especially entrepreneurs. They like to have their own idea. I'm not going to tell you about it. I want to do it all on my own. And if you look at even countries like Rwanda, they're doing much better than us, and part of it is because they've been really good at, at, at building collaboration. Some of the others are obvious. Education, we know our education's not, is not great. other countries are getting that much better, and we need to change that really, really fast. It's not enough just to say you've got metric, if actually that metric is not of no value to, to somebody. the fourth one then is about access to finance. We know this, there's, we know that we need to improve access to finance, and we know that we need to teach people to understand more of their personal anxieties around money and to manage that better. And the sixth one I can't remember.


### Quotes

> "as a kid, I did a nature project, and there was the laughing kookaburra, this picture that I cut out of a magazine, and so for the next, whatever it was, almost twenty years, I just had this dream of seeing the laughing kookaburra, and so I went to do my masters in, in Australia"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=176)

> "In fact, if we'd waited and looked at all the reasons not to do it, we probably never would have done it."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [07:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=466)

> "And that's a classic case of we just leapt off a cliff. We had, we had no clue."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [08:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=500)

> "if you have something to change, we have the answer."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [16:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=965)

> "you can't be a leader if you don't understand yourself."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=992)

> "I always thought burnout was for sissies."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1350)

> "You can't fix in ten days. I need ten months."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1457)

> "I wish somebody had told me, first of all, that it's okay to be bossy."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1498)

> "when there's a giver, there has to be a receiver."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [26:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1604)

> "Gosh, if she can be changing the world at ninety-one, who am I to think that I should, you know, park off right now?"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [28:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1726)

> "we still only work two days a week at the office, and I think it's, I think it's a mistake. I really think that you lose something. There's something about the remote working. Yes, it's convenient. Yes, you don't have to waste time traveling. You don't have the cost of traveling. But I think that we really lose something. We lose something by being so disconnected like that."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [31:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1884)

> "Ultimately, if you scratch and leave that surface, it's just a way to be seen, recognized, and loved."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [32:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1935)

> "don't look too much for balance because balance doesn't actually take you anywhere. Balance means that you're static, right? I think it's important, you have to have movement. So if you want, if you're, if you're goal-orientated, you want to succeed in your career or anywhere in life, you have to be out of balance because that's how you move forward."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [32:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1961)

> "It's never, ever, ever too late."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [33:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2036)

> "We have incredible talent in South Africa. We are really the best country in the world."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · [40:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2414)


### Claims

> "I, I'm born and raised in Zambia, so I did my primary school there and then was shipped off a very unhappily To boarding school in England."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Early life · [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=144)

> "I chose to study initially biochemistry because my grandfather was a professor of biochemistry, and then when I got there, I realized all the good parties were in the agriculture faculty, so I changed to agriculture,"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Early life · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=157)

> "we carved out a small little tomato farm. I think it was like two acres out of the bush, outside of, Lusaka and planted, planted tomatoes there."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Entrepreneurial courage · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=211)

> "I was agricultural economist for, for the Zambian Farmers, Union. And at the bright age of 27, you know, when you think you know it all, right?"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Influencing national policy · [04:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=252)

> "And so at the age of 27, I basically changed the entire direction of the country, and they did, in fact, double the maize price, and that, in fact, was the first step towards opening of the economy in, in, in Zambia."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Influencing national policy · [06:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=362)

> "because in doubling the maize price, I had inadvertently completely unsettled the entire, economic structure in the country, and we, the country went into hyperinflation, and the World Bank came, stepped in and said, hang on, we're gonna cut off the money supply."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Influencing national policy · [06:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=394)

> "We knew nothing about finance. We knew nothing about importing. We knew nothing about auctions. And we really just learned on the job. So it's kind of the classic example of seeing an opportunity and just jumping in, because if we'd waited in order to be perfect, we probably would never have done it."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Entrepreneurial courage · [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=449)

> "people often ask me, you know, are entrepreneurs born or made? And I, and I really believe they're born, because there's this inherent ability to spot an opportunity, number one, but also having the courage to leap."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Entrepreneurial courage · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=489)

> "And so in 1998, yeah, we literally, we'd lost everything. I went, in the period of a year, actually, in the year that I turned forty, I celebrated my fortieth birthday, with great gratitude, beautiful husband, beautiful children, wonderful life, and nine months later, I had the clothes on my back and the three children."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Losing everything and rebuilding · [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=546)

> "And the gift of losing everything was that I suddenly realized that I had all of these talents that I've been sitting on."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Losing everything and rebuilding · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=589)

> "very entrepreneurial people are actually gamblers, you know, and they'll either end up in jail or they end up broke, right?"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Entrepreneurial courage · [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=642)

> "but I think probably it's made me a better entrepreneur because, because I'm, because I'm more of a business leader than, you know, the kind of wild gambler."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Purpose-driven leadership · [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=676)

> "And I thought to myself, you know, you're not, you haven't empowered anybody unless you've helped them, you put them in control of the money that they make, the money in their pocket."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Founding Fetola · [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=723)

> "If I teach them to be an entrepreneur, I teach them not only to be able to make and make and master the money for themselves today, but that it creates generational change."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Founding Fetola · [12:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=742)

> "So, you know, like nine out of ten of our businesses are still in business ten years later, which is like phenomenal."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Founding Fetola · [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=798)

> "and so I was able to walk from a fully paid job Straight into a first contract, with, with a client, I mean, like, all mutual."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Founding Fetola · [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=878)

> "So its full name, Fetola is Fetola Moho, which in Susutu means changing together."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Founding Fetola · [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=908)

> "you can't be a leader if you don't understand yourself. And so this entire journey has been really one of self-discovery."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Purpose-driven leadership · [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=992)

> "I always say I'm like a, an experiment of one, because if I'm feeling this, you know, like if I'm feeling tired, or if I'm feeling that the timesheet system is really not working for me, if, you know, I'm feeling, burdened, the chances are that it's reflected in the people around me."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Purpose-driven leadership · [17:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1044)

> "we have a hundred-year vision, and our hundred-year vision is changing lives for the better forever."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Purpose-driven leadership · [18:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1094)

> "We quite often walk away from work. We don't believe there's a, an ethical alignment, or we don't believe that we're really chasing the same thing. We won't take it on."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Purpose-driven leadership · [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1132)

> "And the thing is that when you're fearful, it's much more difficult to, to stick by your rules. Because when you're fearful, it's very, and maybe you're fearful about money. Most people have fear about money, right?"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Purpose-driven leadership · [19:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1167)

> "I never come into a room as an expert, because if you come in touting yourself as the expert, you immediately, you know, you immediately set yourself up, for criticism."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Authenticity · [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1264)

> "I have a team of like thirty-five people, I think it is now in Cape Town, and together with our part-time people, it's more than a hundred people all, all around the country."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Founding Fetola · [21:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1310)

> "I'm, I'm very mindful that how I am and how I turn up and what my energy is really determines what happens in the business, and that can be, that can be exhausting."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1320)

> "I always thought burnout was for sissies. I never thought, I never thought I would, I would hit that. I never thought it was for me. And in fact, just recently I took time out, I took some time out, I went to Greece on a retreat because I recognized that I'd got to that point."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1350)

> "And I said to myself, that's crazy. You can't fix in ten days. I need ten months. And so then what I said to myself, I'm going to give myself the ten months."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1456)

> "I wish somebody had told me, first of all, that it's okay to be bossy. You know, when I was quite young, I remember coming home and being really upset because some kid had said to me, oh, you're bossy."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Women and ambition · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1498)

> "They wouldn't say that to a boy, a boy child. They would say, no, no, no, you've got leadership capabilities."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Women and ambition · [25:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1519)

> "And then I realized in that is that when there's a giver, there has to be a receiver."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Losing everything and rebuilding · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1601)

> "For me, success has always been about impact. And so that's about helping. So we measure, I measure success not about my income."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Redefining success · [27:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1668)

> "I think it's important, belonging, intimate relations, friendships are as important as impact."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Redefining success · [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1748)

> "And so the ability to think, To ask the right questions, but also to be able to step back and kind of synthesize what's happening."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Future leadership capabilities · [30:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1813)

> "The reality is human nature doesn't move that fast. And so the counterculture is, is going to be the slower, more human-connected, more interpersonal, parts of our lives."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Future leadership capabilities · [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1840)

> "we still only work two days a week at the office, and I think it's, I think it's a mistake. I really think that you lose something."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Future leadership capabilities · [31:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1884)

> "don't look too much for balance because balance doesn't actually take you anywhere. Balance means that you're static, right?"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Redefining success · [32:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=1961)

> "So what would you say to women, and you can specifically speak to me because I'm in this position right now, who in mid or late career are considering a bold pivot towards something new,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mid-career pivots · [33:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2017)

> "I think that, I've observed in myself is that we have many lives in one life."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Mid-career pivots · [34:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2054)

> "When we have nothing to lose, we're bolder, okay? And so people are quite courageous about starting, often about starting a business or starting a career, but then when they get in it, they think, I've invested so much, I don't want to jeopardize. And then they become more risk averse."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Mid-career pivots · [34:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2081)

> "I've helped thousands of people to change the way they think about themselves, to believe in themselves, and to build businesses, that go on and change lives for, for other people."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Legacy · [35:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2132)

> "so I was asked to do some research, for the Startup 20, part of the G20 component, and I was asked to do a strategy, with, Andy Network, so the Aspen Network are development entrepreneurs,"
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Lessons from developing nations · [36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2211)

> "What I didn't know was that eighty percent of their economy is actually local economy, only twenty percent roughly is export orientated."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Lessons from developing nations · [37:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2265)

> "And so there, if you're going to have a product that's world-class, every single entrepreneur along the line needs to be world-class. And I don't think that we've done that."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Lessons from developing nations · [38:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2313)

> "The third is collaboration. So in, in South Africa, we're not great at collaborating, especially entrepreneurs."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: Lessons from developing nations · [38:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2338)

> "Most people that I meet start a business because they, they want to make a difference. They actually want to do something good for the world. And I think that we need to talk ourselves up better."
> — Catherine Wijnberg, guest · topic: South Africa's potential · [40:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1630817_high.mp3#t=2429)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Building businesses that last to drive social change. This is the fourth episode of the Powerful Women series of On Change, where we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have shattered glass ceilings, defied expectations, and have chosen to lead on their own terms. This episode features an insightful conversation between Petro du Pisani and Catherine Wijnberg, CEO of Fetola, a serial entrepreneur and adventurer who has built five businesses across three countries. Catherine reflects on her early life in Zambia, her studies in biochemistry and agriculture, and the pivotal moment at age 27 when she successfully influenced national economic policy. She shares how losing everything in her personal life became the catalyst for launching Fetola in 2006, an organisation dedicated to supporting youth and women entrepreneurs across Southern Africa. The conversation explores Catherine�s approach to purpose-driven leadership, authenticity, and creating businesses that last. She offers practical insights on avoiding burnout, building thinking capacity in future leaders, and using entrepreneurship as a tool for social justice. Catherine also discusses her research into what developing nations are doing right and how these lessons can inspire global change. Connect with Catherine � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #045 Lessons from Everest | Jeannette McGill

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/045-lessons-from-everest/
- Date: 2025-11-07 (as at 2025-11-07)
- Guest: Jeannette McGill
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Everest mountaineering journey, Women in mining leadership, Resilience and self-belief, Ageism and older women, Values as North Star, Commitment, consistency, courage
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1615890
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3

### About the guest: Jeannette McGill

- A geologist who worked in the world's deepest mine and who in 2025 became the oldest South African woman to summit Mt. Everest.

In their own words:

> "and then I was also leading for Outward Bound. It used to be Veld and Vlei in South Africa, and that was really where working with people in the outdoors and leading in the outdoors really took root inside of me, too." [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=101)

> "And yes, I was the first technical woman to work on all the mines that I've worked on, and then I also pursued and got a underground blasting certificate as well." [04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=286)

> "the second phase was then into the very much the application of this in the various, executive roles that I've had in technology leadership, both in South Africa, for producers, as well as overseas for some of the supply companies into that executive space." [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=339)

> "And I really sort of understand then why I went and, you know, I've got five degrees, and I had this sort of tick list that I worked through, and I thought that that was important. But then, funnily enough, it's been my journey in the outdoors that has shown me that that tick list, whilst it was valid, it was also not necessarily as needed." [08:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=525)

> "I did have a short stint when I was studying my PhD in Colorado that whilst it was an amazing outdoor environment, I didn't do as much mountaineering as I possibly could have or should have," [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=584)

> "I'm the first South African woman to do some mountains and the first South African in totality to climb some mountains." [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=773)

> "I was very happy to summit this year in 2025, which basically means my Everest journey has been a path of resilience and self-belief that's taken a good 30 years to reach fruition." [13:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=815)

> "I fund a scholarship specifically allocated to African women, which I really felt is really important because female mountaineers across the African continent are so underserved and I've been able to, through that process, support people from countries like Kenya and Ethiopia and South Africa as well." [24:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1473)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with her long-time friend Jeannette McGill, who in 2025 became the oldest South African woman to summit Everest. Jeannette traces her route from Outward Bound leading and geology studies to working underground on South African gold mines at a time when women's underground work was restricted, and then into executive technology leadership. She describes a 30-year Everest journey that began with a newspaper competition she walked away from. She also addresses misconceptions about Everest, ageism in mountaineering, values as a North Star, living through Nepal's Gen Z protests, and a three-step approach of commitment, consistency and courage for anyone facing a 'personal Everest'.

**Key ideas**

- Jeannette says her Everest journey took 30 years, from tearing up a 1995 expedition advert to summiting in 2025 after two failed attempts. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=641) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=661) [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=720) [13:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=815))
- Jeannette argues that keeping her goal quiet held her back, and that she had to be outspoken and own it before she succeeded. ([13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=785) [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1643) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1664))
- Jeannette breaks the path to a personal Everest into three steps: commitment, consistency and courage. ([27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1643) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1664) [28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1692) [28:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1725))
- Jeannette argues that Everest's crowding and death toll are taken out of context when compared with events like UTMB and Ironman. ([16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=967) [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=982) [16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1012))
- Jeannette holds that ageism is rife in mountaineering, but that older women are strong in endurance and that experience supported her summit. ([17:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1062) [18:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1109) [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1140) [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1157))
- Jeannette recommends distilling your personal values into a North Star; she refined hers to five core values during her sabbatical. ([21:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1271) [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1299))
- Jeannette frames self-leadership and fear as a muscle that must be stretched, especially as women get older. ([29:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1777) [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1823) [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1840) [30:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1854))
- Jeannette describes mountaineering as a partnership and privilege built on preparation, rather than conquering a mountain. ([14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=896) [15:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=924))

**Three steps to your personal Everest: commitment, consistency, courage** ([27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1643) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1664) [28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1692) [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1705) [28:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1725))

1. Commitment: commit to yourself, let alone others, that this is what you are going to do.
2. Consistency: once committed, put in the work consistently; little things add up to the big things.
3. Courage: back yourself, stand up against naysayers, and share the goal with family and friends.

**Lessons**

- Jeannette suggests that announcing and owning a big goal, rather than keeping it quiet, is what freed her to organise her life around achieving it. ([13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=785) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1664) [29:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1749))
- Jeannette advises breaking a large challenge into consistent small actions, like filling in a dot on a calendar. ([28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1692) [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1705))
- Jeannette would tell her younger self to do more of what she wanted and less of what was expected of her. ([22:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1366) [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1367))
- Jeannette says time outdoors gave her clarity and made her a better executive leader. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=180) [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=607))
- Jeannette encourages older women to keep stretching their fear muscle through new experiences. ([30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1823) [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1840) [30:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1854))

**Who it's for:** Women leaders, especially those in male-dominated fields like mining or later in their careers; people considering a sabbatical or a long-term personal goal; and anyone curious about what climbing Everest actually involves.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Jeannette says that in the late 1990s it was still illegal for women to work underground full-time in South Africa. ([04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=242))
- A 1995 Sunday Times competition sought a woman for the first South African Everest expedition. ([11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=661))
- Jeannette summited Everest in 2025; the host says she was 52 at the time. ([13:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=815) [17:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1044))
- According to Jeannette, the oldest South African man to summit was 55, and the previous oldest South African woman was 49. ([18:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1084))
- Jeannette cites 700 climbers on Everest over six weeks against 10,000 UTMB runners in one weekend. ([16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=982))
- Jeannette cites about 354 deaths on Everest against 250 deaths in Ironman since its inception. ([16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1012))
- Jeannette says she holds five degrees and studied for her PhD in Colorado. ([08:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=525) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=584))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Jeannette McGill get to work underground in South African mines?**
A: In the late 1990s women could not work underground full-time. Geologists worked a part shift underground, so she studied geology rather than mining engineering and became the first technical woman on each mine she worked on. ([03:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=220) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=242) [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=269) [04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=286))

**Q: Why did it take Jeannette 30 years to climb Everest?**
A: She tore up a 1995 competition advert to follow her career, built altitude experience step by step, kept her goal quiet through two failed attempts, then owned the goal openly and summited in 2025. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=641) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=661) [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=720) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=785) [13:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=815))

**Q: Are the queues and deaths on Everest as bad as people say?**
A: Jeannette says they are taken out of context: 700 climbers over six weeks against 10,000 UTMB runners in a weekend, and about 354 Everest deaths against 250 Ironman deaths. She points to climate change as a real challenge. ([16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=967) [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=982) [16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1012))

**Q: Does being older make it harder to climb Everest?**
A: Jeannette says ageism is rife in mountaineering, but older women are strong in endurance. Her experience helped her manage logistics and her physical and mental health, whereas younger climbers sometimes summit partly by luck. ([17:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1062) [18:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1109) [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1157))

**Q: What steps help you achieve a big personal goal?**
A: Jeannette names three: commit to yourself, put in consistent work, and have the courage to back yourself and share the goal with others. ([27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1643) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1664) [28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1692) [28:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1725))

**Q: How can I keep a sense of self when doubting myself?**
A: Jeannette recommends working out your own personal values as a North Star; during her sabbatical she distilled hers into five core values that she uses as a yardstick. ([21:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1271) [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1299))

**Q: What is the 'fear muscle' Jeannette talks about?**
A: She describes self-leadership and fear as a muscle that must be stretched like any muscle at the gym, and says women tend to stop stretching it as they get older. ([29:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1777) [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1823) [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1840) [30:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1854))

**Q: What legacy does Jeannette want to leave?**
A: She funds a mountaineering scholarship for African women, having supported climbers from Kenya, Ethiopia and South Africa, and wants to be known as someone who tried her best and had fun. ([24:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1473) [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1512))


### Passage: From geology studies to underground gold mines [03:40–05:03, 241 words]

Note (AI): Jeannette explains the legal limits on women underground in the late 1990s and how geology gave her a route into South African gold mines.

Jeannette McGill, guest [03:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=220):
> Yeah, the route I took took me to the deepest point on the African continent. So instead of nature conservation, I studied zoology, but then I also studied geology. And it was that geology studies that saw me get a scholarship initially to go and study at Rhodes University in Grahamstown. And then through that, I started working on the gold mines of South Africa. And this was in the, the late 1990s where it was still actually illegal for women to work underground full-time. There were two ways that women could work underground in South Africa. The first was if you were a nurse or had to support some event that required some health assistance underground. And the second way of getting underground was as a geologist, because you worked a part shift underground. So women couldn't study mining engineering because that would have meant a whole shift underground. But as a geologist, we would map underground and then come to the surface. And so instead of studying mining engineering, I studied geology, and that gave me a pathway to working on South African gold mines. And yes, I was the first technical woman to work on all the mines that I've worked on, and then I also pursued and got a underground blasting certificate as well. So definitely grew up, took that challenge that I had in the outdoors, in the real mountains, and I put that back underground.


### Passage: The thirty-year journey to the Everest summit [10:41–13:48, 564 words]

Note (AI): The full arc from tearing up a 1995 expedition advert, through progressive altitude goals and two failed attempts, to owning the goal and summiting in 2025.

Jeannette McGill, guest [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=641):
> You know, a picture of my Everest journey has been really sort of an interesting one for me, and I guess I call it my my Steve Jobs journey insofar as we all know that Steve Jobs said you cannot, you know, look at the dots going forward, and, you can only connect them looking backwards. And my Everest journey is one of those things. Insofar as back in 1995 when I was studying at Rhodes, this competition came out in the Sunday Times newspaper, and it was asking for women to apply to be part of a competition that would select a woman to join already pre-selected men as climbers to be the first South African expedition to Everest. And, needless to say, that became the 1996 season, which has been well represented in the the press and the public sphere, and people can go look at that. And it was during that process that I really had to ask myself, is this something that I wanted to do? And I thought it was People had said you well experienced in the outdoors, but I also knew of the people that probably were more connected than me at the time and probably stood there for just through their connections, had a better chance of being successful. And I was studying, I was doing my honors at the time, and it was this decision. I remember tearing up the newspaper in my, my res room and saying, no, you know, I'm just going to follow my career. But actually my dream had sort of, the seed had been planted back then, but I just buried it. And then I continued with this corporate career and my mountaineering, you know, I used it recreationally very much so. And, and then, you know, as, as one develops in the mountaineering space, I'd done the Kilimanjaros and then I wanted to see if I can get to 6,000 meters. And when you get to 6,000 meters, you want to see if you can get to 7,000 meters. And naturally we decide, you know, I wanted to know if my body can work up at 8,000 meters because funny enough, In people's bodies, there's a natural ceiling. Not everybody can get to these exceptionally extreme altitudes. And it was only when I'd had some of this pre-existing experience climbing 8,000 meter mountains. I'm the first South African woman to do some mountains and the first South African in totality to climb some mountains. It was only then that it almost went full circle where I went, you know what? I actually wouldn't mind trying Everest. I kept the goal quite quiet from people because I find Everest can be quite polarizing in the public space. And I did have two attempts at Everest and for various reasons they didn't work out. And eventually I had to be quite outspoken and I had to own that goal. I found it was really easy to encourage others to lead through their goals, but I had to take this, you know, this path to be able to really be standing up about my own personal Everest goal, and, I was very happy to summit this year in 2025, which basically means my Everest journey has been a path of resilience and self-belief that's taken a good 30 years to reach fruition.


### Passage: Three misconceptions about climbing Everest [16:07–17:22, 217 words]

Note (AI): Jeannette sets Everest crowding and death figures against trail running and Ironman comparisons, challenging common public perceptions.

Jeannette McGill, guest [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=967):
> And there's probably three main, misnomers around Everest. The first one definitely is the lines. And I was very fortunate enough, based on my experience and based on my logistical setup, I was able to summit just myself and my Sherpa. And, but the interesting thing is people do, they condemn the lines on Everest, but if you go and you look at a race like trail running, the UTMB race in Mont Blanc, they have 10,000 people over one weekend. We have 700 climbers on Everest over six weeks, and so I think that Everest is often taken out of, you know, context there. The other big thing, of course, is people say there's bodies on Everest everywhere. And one of the interesting things that I look at as well is there's been about 354 deaths on Everest. But if you look at a sport like the Ironman, the full Ironman, since the inception of Ironman, 250 people have died running the Ironman. But It's not really well known, and so I do believe that things like lions, things like deaths are the, the challenge that we have to be able to create a positive perception around climbing Everest, but obviously some of the real challenges do talk to things like climate change at the moment.


### Passage: Age, experience and the oldest South African woman [17:42–19:28, 323 words]

Note (AI): Jeannette argues that age and experience strengthened her climb, naming ageism in mountaineering and the endurance of older women.

Jeannette McGill, guest [17:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1062):
> It really helped me own my experience. I didn't realize that I would be that, but I do enjoy studying. I like numbers, I like data, and so having been somebody who does have access to the Himalayan database, it was out of curiosity to check back from a South African perspective to see who had done what when. I'd learned that the oldest South African so far to summit Everest is is a guy who's 55 years old when he summited. the previous oldest, South African woman, she summited when she was 49. So, the reality is is that whilst, you know, it's a it's a nice thing to say about it, from a actual climbing perspective, it meant that I had to own the age. The ageism is quite rife in the mountaineering space and, really being able to own why I'm there in my experience. But at the flip side, I do believe that older women in particular are really strong when it comes to an endurance perspective. When we're able to put our heads down and just keep going and keep going. You can see this in sports like marathon mountain biking as well as, you know, the trail running races and things like that. And so for me, being an older climber meant that one, I could really own the experience that I had. It's blatant when you can look at the ice wall on Everest. You can see who's got the experience and who hasn't. And then just being able to keep that experience in my pocket such that I could manage my logistics, my health, my mental health, all of those things as well. So it actually really differently supported my summit. I think that younger people, they summit, they might summit first time out of the gates, but I think sometimes it's by a bit of luck and obviously a supportive The, the Sherpa community.


### Passage: Commitment, consistency and courage for your personal Everest [27:23–29:07, 344 words]

Note (AI): Jeannette's three-step approach to reaching a big personal goal, illustrated with her own Everest attempts and the host's trek training.

Jeannette McGill, guest [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1643):
> Yeah, I really sort of break this path down into three main points, and I agree. It Everests can be very personal, they can be public, and could be a challenge that you're taking on for one moment in time, or it can be something that you're going to take a couple of years to achieve. And for me, I'd break this leadership path and getting to your personal Everest down into three distinct steps. And for me, the first one is commitment. You actually have to commit to yourself, let alone others, that this is what you're going to do. It happened on my Everest journey. I played it safe, I played it quiet for the first attempts, and then I had to commit to myself, and then I was able to have the freedom to set up my entire lifestyle around what I wanted to do. So if you have a goal, you've got to commit to it, because then you can lead yourself through to that point. But once you've committed to that goal, you do have to put in the work, and that work comes around consistency. And so the same way we might fill in a dot on a calendar to do whatever you want to do, you've got to do it. And I firmly believe in the little things actually add up to the big things. And I know that when you joined me last year, the training that you did was part of that consistency. You saw the big elephant of a, you know, a 25-day odd trekking trip and broke it down and was just tackling it on a consistent basis. And then the final aspect That I would share after the commitment, the consistency is then courage. You do have to just simply have that courage to be able to back yourself, to stand up against naysayers, to share it with family, to share it with friends, and that courage will then support the self-belief to be able to take on your own personal Everest.


### Passage: Stretching the fear muscle as women age [29:37–31:18, 302 words]

Note (AI): Jeannette frames self-leadership and fear as a muscle, and urges older women leaders to keep taking on new challenges.

Jeannette McGill, guest [29:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1777):
> I'd probably want to share from a, a leadership perspective, especially, you know, we'd spoken earlier that I've been on the forefront of some of the, the gender challenges that we defined in the female space as leaders. And because we are now women that were often at the forefront of leadership when we were younger, and we are able to pull people along behind us means that, that's been great. And I've been able to watch those full circle moments. But at the same time, we're still pushing barriers and boundaries. And one of those things comes to women being older in the leadership space without having ageism push against us, as well as some of the, you know, the challenges that we have as we enter our later lives. And for me, what I would share then is around that fear and the self-leadership is a muscle. And it's a muscle, like any muscle which you've got to take to the gym, it's a muscle that needs to get stretched. If you haven't run or walked around the block for a while, you've got to go and start slow. And I think as women, especially we get older, we stop to stretch our fear muscle and how we talk and how we do things the older we get. And so probably the last thing is just to encourage everybody to keep stretching your fear muscle. It doesn't have to be going all the way to 8,000 meters in the top of the world. It doesn't have to be four kilometers beneath the surface of the earth either. But whatever it is, you know, go out there, go and experience new things, do new things, read new books, see new people, and keep stretching your fear muscle as we get older.


### Quotes

> "So it's just sort of been my, my gym, physical and mental."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=202)

> "I do have some formative wiring that predisposes me to needing to be validated, and that's enough I'll say about that. And I really sort of understand then why I went and, you know, I've got five degrees, and I had this sort of tick list that I worked through, and I thought that that was important."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [08:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=516)

> "my Everest journey has been a path of resilience and self-belief that's taken a good 30 years to reach fruition."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=821)

> "but true mountaineers definitely don't take the opportunity to reach these unique places, you know, we don't, we definitely look to them as a special moment."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [15:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=924)

> "It's blatant when you can look at the ice wall on Everest. You can see who's got the experience and who hasn't."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1140)

> "I'm so much lighter. You know, I did feel that the monkey had got off my back."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [19:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1173)

> "the advice that I would have given my younger self is to do more of what I wanted and less of what I thought was expected of me."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1367)

> "But In all honesty, there was still of a year of having to be the quintessential good girl and doing what was expected, even though I was pushing boundaries in the mining space or from a gender perspective in the outdoors. But I think I would have actually liked to have even done more of what I wanted to do."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [23:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1386)

> "Being able to be simply successful is, is a real privilege."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1448)

> "I'm definitely somebody who, who tried her best. Always tried her best and, had an immense amount of fun whilst doing it."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1512)

> "And so whilst, you know, people are concerned about safety, I'm somebody that has been in Nepal for a long time and, I've really taken the opportunity to look at this more strategically, holistically, and what does it mean from a leadership lens, both for people as well as for self-leadership."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1597)

> "And I firmly believe in the little things actually add up to the big things."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1705)

> "If you keep it quiet, then you sort of give yourself an out."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1755)

> "just to encourage everybody to keep stretching your fear muscle. It doesn't have to be going all the way to 8,000 meters in the top of the world. It doesn't have to be four kilometers beneath the surface of the earth either."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · [30:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1854)


### Claims

> "I've known Jeannette for over twenty-five years, maybe longer, and we also walked the Three Passes Trek together last year. She was one of my guides."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [00:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=19)

> "and then I was also leading for Outward Bound. It used to be Veld and Vlei in South Africa, and that was really where working with people in the outdoors and leading in the outdoors really took root inside of me, too."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Outdoor leadership · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=101)

> "The rule was you could only be 14 years old when you joined, but, because I had spent the preceding years doing these things, yeah, I don't think they realized that I was that young,"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [02:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=155)

> "I've been able to have clarity, clarity of focus. I think walking can be sometimes slightly meditative, and I've been able to solve all kinds of problems and challenges by just giving myself a bit of space through the outdoors,"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Outdoor leadership · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=180)

> "And this was in the, the late 1990s where it was still actually illegal for women to work underground full-time. There were two ways that women could work underground in South Africa."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Women in mining leadership · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=242)

> "So women couldn't study mining engineering because that would have meant a whole shift underground. But as a geologist, we would map underground and then come to the surface."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Women in mining leadership · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=269)

> "And yes, I was the first technical woman to work on all the mines that I've worked on, and then I also pursued and got a underground blasting certificate as well."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Women in mining leadership · [04:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=286)

> "the second phase was then into the very much the application of this in the various, executive roles that I've had in technology leadership, both in South Africa, for producers, as well as overseas for some of the supply companies into that executive space."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Career path · [05:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=339)

> "So for me, there's no pivotal moment per se, but it's this willingness to take on challenges and to see things differently and then go and test and trial those."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Career path · [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=386)

> "I remember once being in Mali, in Bamako, and it was very new for that culture to be dealing with a woman in charge. And definitely Being able to lead into those spaces and to come with the empathy, understanding where they're coming from, but at the same time, knowing that I've got my own stakeholders that are expecting me to deliver as well."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Women in mining leadership · [07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=462)

> "Yeah, I think we've walked a very similar path. You know, we were just in different mining houses or different places in the world, but we were sort of fighting the similar battles in the places that we were employed in."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women in mining leadership · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=492)

> "And I really sort of understand then why I went and, you know, I've got five degrees, and I had this sort of tick list that I worked through, and I thought that that was important. But then, funnily enough, it's been my journey in the outdoors that has shown me that that tick list, whilst it was valid, it was also not necessarily as needed."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Resilience and self-belief · [08:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=525)

> "I did have a short stint when I was studying my PhD in Colorado that whilst it was an amazing outdoor environment, I didn't do as much mountaineering as I possibly could have or should have,"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Career path · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=584)

> "I feel that I can think through things and strategize and show up as a much better leader in the executive space when I've also spent my weekends challenging myself. And so yes, you know, in all my corporate roles, all my leave has been used to go on mountaineering expeditions."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Outdoor leadership · [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=607)

> "Insofar as back in 1995 when I was studying at Rhodes, this competition came out in the Sunday Times newspaper, and it was asking for women to apply to be part of a competition that would select a woman to join already pre-selected men as climbers to be the first South African expedition to Everest."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=661)

> "I remember tearing up the newspaper in my, my res room and saying, no, you know, I'm just going to follow my career. But actually my dream had sort of, the seed had been planted back then, but I just buried it."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=720)

> "In people's bodies, there's a natural ceiling. Not everybody can get to these exceptionally extreme altitudes."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=761)

> "I'm the first South African woman to do some mountains and the first South African in totality to climb some mountains."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=773)

> "I kept the goal quite quiet from people because I find Everest can be quite polarizing in the public space. And I did have two attempts at Everest and for various reasons they didn't work out. And eventually I had to be quite outspoken and I had to own that goal."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Resilience and self-belief · [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=785)

> "I was very happy to summit this year in 2025, which basically means my Everest journey has been a path of resilience and self-belief that's taken a good 30 years to reach fruition."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [13:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=815)

> "For me, the mountaineering space is about preparation, it's about witnessing yourself as well as others out there, and it's a true privilege to be allowed to, to summit these mountains,"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest mountaineering journey · [14:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=896)

> "I was able to summit just myself and my Sherpa. And, but the interesting thing is people do, they condemn the lines on Everest, but if you go and you look at a race like trail running, the UTMB race in Mont Blanc, they have 10,000 people over one weekend. We have 700 climbers on Everest over six weeks,"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest misconceptions · [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=982)

> "there's been about 354 deaths on Everest. But if you look at a sport like the Ironman, the full Ironman, since the inception of Ironman, 250 people have died running the Ironman."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Everest misconceptions · [16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1012)

> "So you were 52 years old when you summited Everest, which makes you officially the oldest South African woman to summit Everest."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Ageism and older women · [17:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1044)

> "I'd learned that the oldest South African so far to summit Everest is is a guy who's 55 years old when he summited. the previous oldest, South African woman, she summited when she was 49."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Ageism and older women · [18:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1084)

> "The ageism is quite rife in the mountaineering space and, really being able to own why I'm there in my experience. But at the flip side, I do believe that older women in particular are really strong when it comes to an endurance perspective."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Ageism and older women · [18:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1109)

> "I think that younger people, they summit, they might summit first time out of the gates, but I think sometimes it's by a bit of luck and obviously a supportive The, the Sherpa community."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Ageism and older women · [19:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1157)

> "I do believe that by spending time and figuring out what your own personal set of values are becomes such a strong North Star."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Values as North Star · [21:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1271)

> "I really spent some time on the sabbatical that I've taken to work with that even more and I've distilled myself down into five core values which resonates with me and they are absolutely my North Stars right now"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Values as North Star · [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1299)

> "I think, I think it's valuable at any time in your life just to take a short break and just to really get back to what's really important to you and you've been doing that."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Values as North Star · [22:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1329)

> "But I think the advice that I would have given my younger self is to do more of what I wanted and less of what I thought was expected of me."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Resilience and self-belief · [22:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1366)

> "Success means being able to follow my own goals in my own time, with space, with empathy, and with care."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Resilience and self-belief · [23:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1435)

> "I fund a scholarship specifically allocated to African women, which I really felt is really important because female mountaineers across the African continent are so underserved and I've been able to, through that process, support people from countries like Kenya and Ethiopia and South Africa as well."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Legacy and giving back · [24:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1473)

> "last week there was, I guess one could call it, a real life revolution here in Nepal, where the Gen Z community really took it upon themselves to protest against the absolute abject corruption that is in place in the country of Nepal."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Nepal revolution · [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1542)

> "Democracy is fairly young in Nepal, similar to South Africa as well, and to just be able to take a step back and compare and contrast and look at the challenges people and life and countries go through has actually been a privilege."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Nepal revolution · [26:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1584)

> "And for me, the first one is commitment. You actually have to commit to yourself, let alone others, that this is what you're going to do."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Commitment, consistency, courage · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1664)

> "But once you've committed to that goal, you do have to put in the work, and that work comes around consistency. And so the same way we might fill in a dot on a calendar to do whatever you want to do, you've got to do it."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Commitment, consistency, courage · [28:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1692)

> "And then the final aspect That I would share after the commitment, the consistency is then courage. You do have to just simply have that courage to be able to back yourself, to stand up against naysayers, to share it with family, to share it with friends,"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Commitment, consistency, courage · [28:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1725)

> "believer that you have to courageously work towards your goals and tell everybody about it. If you keep it quiet, then you sort of give yourself an out."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Commitment, consistency, courage · [29:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1749)

> "And for me, what I would share then is around that fear and the self-leadership is a muscle. And it's a muscle, like any muscle which you've got to take to the gym, it's a muscle that needs to get stretched."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Ageism and older women · [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1823)

> "And I think as women, especially we get older, we stop to stretch our fear muscle and how we talk and how we do things the older we get."
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Ageism and older women · [30:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1840)

> "So I'm absolutely not giving up my mountaineering trajectory, but it's about having a portfolio of responsibilities, leadership opportunities, both in the corporate space, in the outdoor space, and being able to lead with my values"
> — Jeannette McGill, guest · topic: Values as North Star · [31:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1615890_high.mp3#t=1894)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

From the deepest mine to the highest mountain in the world. This is the third episode of the Powerful Women series of On Change, where we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have shattered glass ceilings, defied expectations, and have chosen to lead on their own terms. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with Jeannette McGill, who in 2025 became the oldest South African woman to summit Mt. Everest. Having walked the Three Passes Trek with Jeannette in 2024, Petro had some insight into how Jeannette had been preparing herself physically, mentally, and emotionally for her summit. Jeannette shares how she went from being a geologist working in the world's deepest mine to standing on the summit of the highest mountain This conversation touches on building resilience and chasing goals both in the mountaineering and corporate world. Jeannette speaks about committing to goals, consistently putting the work in to achieve them, and then having the courage to follow through on your dreams. Connect with Jeannette � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #044 We need a new future | Carmen Murray

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/044-we-need-a-new-future/
- Date: 2025-10-31 (as at 2025-10-31)
- Guest: Carmen Murray
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Authentic Intelligence Framework, Conscious Leaders movement, Futurism and shaping the future, Women in leadership, AI as a mirror, Masking and authenticity, Fear versus hope, Redefining success
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1613281
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3

### About the guest: Carmen Murray

- CEO · Carmen Murray Communications
- A reformed marketer and futurist who designed the Authentic Intelligence Framework and founded the Conscious LeadHERs movement; studied a postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School and trained as a numerologist.

In their own words:

> "in the middle of all of this, Carmen is studying her postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School, her PG dip, and studying to become a numerologist. Two very different disciplines." [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539)

> "that's why I started Conscious Leaders. I started it with the intent of unity. I want change agents. I want people that think like me, do things like me. I'm not in competition with you." [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1144)

> "January, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, unintentionally, I didn't realize it at the moment, I started Conscious Leaders in 2024." [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296)

> "with my podcast, I decided I'm going to change it from the Carmen Murray show and I'm going to focus on conscious leaders. And we brought so many women onto the show." [22:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1375)

> "I'm a marketer, I'm a technographer, I'm a numerologist, I'm all of these amazing things, but I'm confusing people because boxy people wants boxy answers." [29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1745)

> "Faith said to me, you should definitely call yourself a futurist. I'm like, hell, I'm not a futurist, like not like that. And she says, you are, you are one." [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1822)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

In this episode of On Change's Powerful Women series, the host speaks with Carmen Murray, who describes herself as a marketer, technographer and numerologist moving into futurism. Carmen recounts how an autism and ADHD diagnosis, the launch of ChatGPT and her studies led her to create the Authentic Intelligence Framework, built on the idea that technology mirrors who we are. She tells how Conscious Leaders grew from a Women's Day post into a movement, and argues that women should negotiate for policy change, audit their circles for authenticity, resist fear-based decisions, and build a better future slowly and together.

**Key ideas**

- Carmen argues that AI mirrors humans, so working well with it requires people to become their best selves; she calls this authentic intelligence. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614) [34:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2085))
- Carmen holds that women and marketing are the two powerful forces in business because women shape culture and marketing mirrors it. ([04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=269))
- Carmen believes many decisions, including board decisions, are made from fear, and proposes protopia: building a better future slowly and together. ([07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=422) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=958) [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1000))
- Carmen says women must learn politics and negotiate for policy change, building courage from the inside out like an egg cracked from within. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1422) [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468))
- Carmen distinguishes conscious, rigid and adaptive authenticity and argues that in a deepfake world we must know who is real in our circles. ([24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1487) [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1554) [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1562) [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1642))
- Carmen redefines success around community, not titles, and around asking better questions rather than receiving answers. ([32:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1965) [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023) [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2038))
- Carmen is not anti-AI but objects to outsourcing our thinking and to an attention economy built to sell us things. ([35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106) [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2212) [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2383))

**Authentic Intelligence Framework: seven intelligences** ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629) [11:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=674))

1. Emotional intelligence
2. Foresight intelligence
3. Spiritual intelligence
4. Culture intelligence
5. Collective intelligence
6. Creative intelligence
7. Learning intelligence, which is all about curiosity

**Lessons**

- Carmen suggests auditing how your career, friendships, purchases and opinions participate in systems you disagree with. ([05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=334))
- Carmen and the host both recommend regular reflective breaks; Carmen suggests a sabbatical-type pause every five years, and the host suggests shorter daily or weekly pauses. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=764) [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=876) [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=902))
- Carmen advises questioning decisions made on autopilot and knowing your own values before choosing. ([36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2212) [37:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2239))
- Carmen recommends a beginner's mindset in uncertain times, and says Conscious Leaders succeeded because she learned as she went. ([20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1229) [32:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1965))
- Carmen urges women to negotiate beyond salary, for policy and the change they want to see. ([24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445))

**Who it's for:** Women leaders, marketers and change agents interested in conscious leadership, how to relate to AI without outsourcing their thinking, building women's communities, and a futurist's view of creating hopeful alternatives to fear-driven systems.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Carmen says she read How to Win Friends and Influence People 13 times by age 16. ([02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=127))
- Carmen says she started Conscious Leaders in January 2024, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday. ([21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296))
- Carmen says the Authentic Intelligence Framework comprises seven intelligences. ([10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629))
- Carmen says she meditated four hours a day during her sabbatical. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=764))
- Carmen states that 350 words, including women, female and race, have been removed from research. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1095))
- Carmen says she studied a postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is the Authentic Intelligence Framework?**
A: Carmen says it holds that to work in tandem with AI we must be our best selves, because technology mirrors who we are. It names seven intelligences: emotional, foresight, spiritual, culture, collective, creative and learning intelligence. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614) [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629))

**Q: How did Carmen Murray come up with authentic intelligence?**
A: Carmen says that during a midlife period, including an autism and ADHD diagnosis and studies at Henley and in numerology, ChatGPT disrupted her marketing work. She asked what the duality of artificial intelligence was and answered: authentic intelligence. ([07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=462) [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539) [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=565) [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584))

**Q: How did the Conscious Leaders movement start?**
A: Carmen says it began from a planned Women's Day 2023 post, grew as she followed her curiosity, and formally started in January 2024 on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, with the intent of unity among change agents. ([19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1144) [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1229) [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296))

**Q: Is Carmen Murray against AI?**
A: No. Carmen says she is not anti-AI and has no problem with the tool. Her problem is how we use it, especially outsourcing our thinking, and turning AI into a god when it is mirroring us. ([34:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2085) [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106))

**Q: What should women in positions of influence do to change systems?**
A: Carmen says they should get good at politics, negotiate for policy change and not just salary, build courage from the inside out, and audit the people in their circles. ([23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1422) [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445) [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468) [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1487))

**Q: What is protopia?**
A: Carmen describes protopia as building a future slowly, a better one, together in unity and in authentic intelligence, as an alternative to either utopia or dystopia. ([16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1000))

**Q: How should we define success in the future?**
A: Carmen argues that success will be about being okay without titles, asking better questions rather than getting answers, and building face-to-face community, because success will only be achieved when we come together. ([33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023) [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2038))

**Q: What does it mean to be a futurist, according to Carmen Murray?**
A: Carmen recounts being told that a futurist must be a seer and a sayer. She wants to alchemize trends into a better future rather than just predict it, while respecting the futurism rule not to shame the trend. ([06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=401) [29:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1780) [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1822))


### Passage: From self-audit to becoming a futurist [04:56–07:14, 450 words]

Note (AI): Traces Carmen's turn from inherited plans to a personal audit and her acceptance of the futurist role as a seer and sayer.

Carmen Murray, guest [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=296):
> The first 40 years of your life is research. The next 40 years of your life is implementation. And my first 40 years I I look at everything the map and the plan that I've inherited from my parents from culture and society and I was like hang on this needs to look different. This is not my values. I don't believe in this. I don't believe in the future I'm being sold. I sometimes feel like we're being herded Into a future, and guided into a future that we can see is not a good one. And just participating in the system that is perpetuating all of these, these atrocities that we are seeing in the world. And, and taking a step back and doing an audit of my own life. How am I participating in this? Where in my career am I participating in this? Where am I participating, in the conversations, in the friends that I have, in the products that I buy, in how I voice my opinions? Those self-reflections were so important for me to really realize how deep it goes and how, how every one of us are participating in, you know, what we are seeing playing out in the world. And we might not realize it, but you can't become conscious unless you go out to go and see and go and look and you're curious. And I think for me, that is when I started realizing all these things that we're seeing in the world, and it's almost like I don't know how to explain explain it to you. I see things and my my head starts hurting. Like I'll start seeing things and I think, can nobody else see what I'm seeing? You know, this is like crazy. And then I realized that it's such a outsider journey, and it's so difficult to sometimes say what you see. And then I started making friends with futurists, and I started realizing this is normal. Nobody believes us in any way. Just speak your truth. And Faith Popcorn said it to me so beautiful. You know what, Carmen? You're not just a seer, you're a sayer. To be a futurist, you need to be a seer and a sayer. And I think that was a pivotal stage for me where I realized, hang on, this is really where I'm meant to be because that's the change I can bring into the world, is to say this is what we are seeing in the world, but how can we alchemize these trends and build a better future? Because we're building a world with fear, not with trust. And trust builds bridges, fear builds walls.


### Passage: How the Authentic Intelligence Framework was born [08:59–11:30, 396 words]

Note (AI): Carmen explains the origin of her framework, its core premise that technology mirrors us, and names its seven intelligences.

Carmen Murray, guest [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539):
> And in the middle of all of this, Carmen is studying her postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School, her PG dip, and studying to become a numerologist. Two very different disciplines. But what I learned through all of this is duality, is nothing in life exists without duality. And in this time, in this moment of complete confusion of who I am, ChatGPT launches and my entire marketing world is disrupted. Because I'm like, huh, the way I'm doing marketing is, this is not looking good for me. I'm going to have to change direction and I just like thought of just like conquer my business and all of that. And I realized, hang on. The future doesn't happen to us, we happen to the future. And this is in that pivotal moment where I said, okay, what is the duality of artificial intelligence? It's authentic intelligence. So in the age of artificial intelligence, we need authentic intelligence. That's obvious. What is authenticity? And I went down this rabbit hole. I think that's the autism part of me, just going deep, deep, deep, deep, like a nerdy into this whole world. And that's how Authentic Intelligence Framework was born. It basically says, in order for us to work in tandem with artificial intelligence, we need to be our best versions of ourselves because technology is a reflection of who we are. It's a mirror to who we are. So you need to work on yourself. And there's seven intelligences that you need to work on in order for you to lead in these times. And it's emotional intelligence, foresight intelligence, it is spiritual intelligence. It is culture intelligence, collective intelligence, creative intelligence, and then learning intelligence, which is all about the curiosity. And in diving into this and just going deeper and deeper and deeper, it has just become very prevalent to me how it shows up in strategy, how it shows up in how I even find trends, and how I look at the future. It has completely shaped the way that I build things and how I build businesses and how I help with marketing initiatives, even conscious leaders. The whole community has, has, has been built on the authentic intelligence framework. Every masterclass, every podcast, every piece of curiosity, every way that we connect as women has all been because of authentic intelligence.


### Passage: The origin and growth of Conscious Leaders [20:29–23:30, 578 words]

Note (AI): Carmen tells how a Women's Day post grew into a movement of almost 7,000 and how her podcast created opportunities for women.

Carmen Murray, guest [20:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1229):
> Conscious Leaders is a movement. you don't need to have a membership or anything. Yeah, you just come. But anyway, I started it. I wanted to do a social media. It's actually how weird this actually worked. I wanted to do a social media post on Women's Day 2023 to say, let's be conscious leaders, happy Women's Day, something in that line. And I was like, there's a ring to this. This sounds great. But I've always in the back of my mind always wanted to start a women empowerment group. Because my industry, we have a lot of women in it, and I think it's a wonderful opportunity for us to network. And I thought, oh, you know what, let me just try and see if I can create a logo out of it, because I'm a creative. I start the other way around. And you know how they say ideas start shaping the moment, or, you know, as you start working on them, this great big idea starts being born. And I was just following the curiosity, and the more I started doing things, the more, and I started, and it was the weirdest thing. And then I get invited to this woman's event and that woman's event, and I haven't even done anything. And that whole energy and motion. Anyway, January, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, unintentionally, I didn't realize it at the moment, I started Conscious Leaders in 2024. And it just started like, and it just started growing and growing and growing. I was like, oh my word, this is amazing. But my whole thing was, I have no idea what I'm doing. I, I don't, I'm not in corporate. I don't work in those environments with all these big words, intersectionality, and all of these buzzwords that are being used. I just want to create a platform where we as women come together without the roles and the titles, where we can just be human beings and come authentically as we are. I'm building an arc and build the arc and they will come. And now we're almost 7,000. and we, you know, in our database and all of that, it's really incredible. but I think the big thing that I've realized in terms of building this communities, you can't do it alone. Like, I need your voice and your voice and everybody else's voices in order to keep the momentum going. People only have to come and listen to Carmen Murray. They'll be bored. I mean, you'll be very bored. So it's bringing all of our voices to the table. And I, what I've really loved and enjoyed is because I, you know, with my podcast, I decided I'm going to change it from the Carmen Murray show and I'm going to focus on conscious leaders. And we brought so many women onto the show. And then afterwards, they would say, oh my gosh, I've just been invited to my second podcast, or I have just been promoted, or I've just received this opportunity, or I've just met somebody incredible because I was on the podcast. And that made me realize, you know, this is really a movement and it's making an impact. And I think that was basically that is, that is gives me all the courage to go out and keep on going, because I can see the impact that it's making, in the, in the, in the women's lives.


### Passage: Women's responsibility: politics, negotiation, inside-out courage [23:42–25:21, 303 words]

Note (AI): Carmen's concrete view of what influential women should do: learn politics, negotiate for policy, and audit the people in their circles.

Carmen Murray, guest [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1422):
> We have a lot of work to do in terms of navigating politics. and be, becoming very good at politics and not under, not looking at politics as if it's what we're seeing in the world, but really knowing that we need to fight for something bigger than ourselves. I think the other thing that we really need to start working on is negotiation. Negotiation is not just about your salary. It is not just about, your own benefits, but it's how are you negotiating for policy change? How are you negotiating for the change that you want to see? and really being fearless, but audacious inside out. And I think that when you do it from that way, if it's audacious outside in, you are building something like, I like to call it, if you crack an egg from the outside, it means death. If you crack an egg from the inside, it means life. So if you build something with courage from the inside out, knowing what you're fighting for is so much easier and you have so much more, courage To see the change and be the change and actually negotiate for it. I think what we definitely need to start considering is doing audits on the people in our circles and know what they are all about, because you can't build this future with people that are all about themselves, only an individualistic. We need to start thinking bigger, because we don't have much time. I don't believe we have much time. We have a lot of work to do in a very short amount of time, and if we want to move the needle, we need to come together. And you can't build a future with people that are, that are only there to exploit, exclude, and extract.


### Passage: Types of authenticity in a post-truth world [25:54–27:37, 317 words]

Note (AI): Carmen distinguishes conscious, rigid and adaptive authenticity and ties them to trust amid deepfakes and instability.

Carmen Murray, guest [25:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1554):
> And I understand that we have to bring our mask and we have to wear them sometimes. But I, I want to go back with this word authenticity because there's different types of authenticity. There's authenticity where you consciously authentic, meaning that I know that I need to work on myself and who I am as a person. But then there is also rigid authenticity. That is, I am who I am and I will show up and be who I am. You just get out of my way. And that rigid authenticity is not the authenticity that we can build with because you have to take your layers of your mask down, not this masked up version. And that's what I was in when I realized I've been masking my entire life. It was when I found out I had autism. So I had to go and do the work. Then there is, the authenticity where you adapt, where you are in certain rooms and you know that you can only bring that part of your authentic self, but everybody must know that when they're in contact with you, you're still the same person. And that to me is important because we have a world that is now, we are in the post-truth era 2.0 society. We have corporate unrest. I mean, we're seeing this in our trends, corporate unrest, the boycotting that is happening, there's a lot of instability, the geopolitics, all of these things, the AI and, and the deepfake world that is exploding. There is a time not so far away from here where we're not going to be able to know what's real and what's not. And we must at least be able to tell who's real and who's not in our circles because we're going to need to have people around us that we can build a new world of trust.


### Passage: Redefining success and the risk of outsourcing thinking [33:43–35:54, 365 words]

Note (AI): Carmen sets out her view of success as community and better questions, and her concern about outsourcing our thinking to AI.

Carmen Murray, guest [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023):
> I think we're doomed if we think that we can be successful the way we've been taught. I think we're doomed, and I think we need to really get rid of that idea very quickly if we think it still exists. And just to go back, it's definitely about the beginner's mindset. I think success building in the future that we are going into is all about being okay not having titles. It's more about the questions you ask than the answers you receive. You see, we've, our systems are all about the answers now. We need to ask better questions. I think that it's the hierarchy, we need to build community. And offline community, face-to-face community, those are, those are the things that are important to create success because success will now only be achieved when we come together. There's a thing called joint up thinking, is when we become smarter when we actually join up our thinking. And we so underestimate how powerful the human mind is. And if you look at artificial intelligence, it's mirroring us. I mean, people keep on forgetting it. It comes from an authentic place. And it's, we're turning AI into a god. And so we're not even realizing how we're giving away our power. I mean, there's so many people out there that are using AI. And I'm not anti-AI. I don't have a problem with the tool. I have a problem how we use the tool. I have a problem with us outsourcing our thinking and not being able to tap into our own humanity and being willing and brave enough to go within. You know, there's a reason why not, we are 80% water, right? How much, we've only explored 5% of the ocean. That is exactly the message that the nature is giving us. You could only explore 5% of me, but you could, you're exploring space like crazy, but you can only take 5% of handling the oceans, the deepest of the oceans. So why are we not going deeper within? And so damn deep, because if you go so deep, it can only get better, and this world would be so different.


### Quotes

> "You're not just a seer, you're a sayer. To be a futurist, you need to be a seer and a sayer."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=405)

> "And trust builds bridges, fear builds walls."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=430)

> "The future doesn't happen to us, we happen to the future."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584)

> "So in the age of artificial intelligence, we need authentic intelligence. That's obvious."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [09:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=594)

> "I'm not in competition with you. You're not in competition with me. We're all on the same mission to drive a better way forward."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [19:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1156)

> "I'm building an arc and build the arc and they will come."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [22:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1337)

> "if you crack an egg from the outside, it means death. If you crack an egg from the inside, it means life."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468)

> "I'm confusing people because boxy people wants boxy answers."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [29:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1751)

> "I think we're doomed if we think that we can be successful the way we've been taught."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [33:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2023)

> "It's more about the questions you ask than the answers you receive."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [34:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2047)

> "I'm not anti-AI. I don't have a problem with the tool. I have a problem how we use the tool."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106)

> "Who's taking up rent space in your mind?"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [37:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2229)

> "There's studies being done on neuro-colonialism, and the work that is being done to invade our thoughts, brain invasion without penetration of putting a device into your head. So how do we know this attention economy, if it's really built with good intent? It's built to keep your eyeballs there and to sell you stuff that you don't need."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2383)


### Claims

> "when I was younger, I've always wanted to be Oprah Winfrey of Africa. That was like the thing, right? And I wanted to write books, I want to travel the world, and I wanted to be on stages."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Origin story · [01:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=115)

> "I read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People 13 times by the time I was 16. And I always looked at this book and I said, that will never be possible for me."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=127)

> "I then started becoming very interested in becoming a forensic auditor. And I wanted to be like finding all the bad guys and all the corrupt guys."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Origin story · [02:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=149)

> "I just woke up one day and I was like, I don't know if I like where marketing is going. I don't know if I like where this industry is going. It's so exploitative. It extracts and it excludes without even intentionally trying to, but it's the unintended consequences of marketing."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious marketing · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=211)

> "I believe that there's two powerful forces in in business and the first one is women because women shapes culture and the other one is marketing because marketing is the mirror of culture and when you use that force and to do good you can do amazing things."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=269)

> "The first 40 years of your life is research. The next 40 years of your life is implementation. And my first 40 years I I look at everything the map and the plan that I've inherited from my parents from culture and society and I was like hang on this needs to look different."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=296)

> "taking a step back and doing an audit of my own life. How am I participating in this? Where in my career am I participating in this? Where am I participating, in the conversations, in the friends that I have, in the products that I buy, in how I voice my opinions?"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Self-reflection · [05:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=334)

> "And Faith Popcorn said it to me so beautiful. You know what, Carmen? You're not just a seer, you're a sayer. To be a futurist, you need to be a seer and a sayer."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=401)

> "how can we alchemize these trends and build a better future? Because we're building a world with fear, not with trust. And trust builds bridges, fear builds walls."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Fear versus hope · [07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=422)

> "this midlife crisis that I was going through, one of them was being told that I've got autism and I've got ADHD. I knew I had ADHD. That was obvious."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [07:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=462)

> "I think the biggest conversation that I had when I was getting diagnosed was You've been wearing a mask all this time. You've been masking. It's a big thing with women, masking, and to fit in."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=524)

> "in the middle of all of this, Carmen is studying her postgraduate diploma at Henley Business School, her PG dip, and studying to become a numerologist. Two very different disciplines."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Background · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=539)

> "ChatGPT launches and my entire marketing world is disrupted. Because I'm like, huh, the way I'm doing marketing is, this is not looking good for me."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=565)

> "The future doesn't happen to us, we happen to the future. And this is in that pivotal moment where I said, okay, what is the duality of artificial intelligence? It's authentic intelligence."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Authentic Intelligence Framework · [09:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=584)

> "It basically says, in order for us to work in tandem with artificial intelligence, we need to be our best versions of ourselves because technology is a reflection of who we are. It's a mirror to who we are."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Authentic Intelligence Framework · [10:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=614)

> "there's seven intelligences that you need to work on in order for you to lead in these times. And it's emotional intelligence, foresight intelligence, it is spiritual intelligence. It is culture intelligence, collective intelligence, creative intelligence, and then learning intelligence, which is all about the curiosity."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Authentic Intelligence Framework · [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=629)

> "The whole community has, has, has been built on the authentic intelligence framework. Every masterclass, every podcast, every piece of curiosity, every way that we connect as women has all been because of authentic intelligence."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [11:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=674)

> "I think for me meditation is really important during my sabbatical. I know you're also big on, on these conscious moves that we need to take in our careers. I meditated for four hours a day."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Inner work · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=764)

> "I don't think it's a once-off you do in your, in your mid-forties. I think it's something you have to do every five years or, I don't know,"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Inner work · [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=876)

> "it's nice to have a bit of a, a longer break to reflect and do all of that, but then you have to try and sort of work shorter breaks into your actual life to make sure that you take time to pause and reflect."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Inner work · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=902)

> "we are all making a lot of decisions right now based on fear, because we are sold fear. And you need to get in the executive states of mind. You need to be grounded, and you can't be grounded if you don't find stillness."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Fear versus hope · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=958)

> "I think the, the, the, the big thing that we need to start thinking about is protopia. Which is building a future slowly, a better one, together in unity and in authentic intelligence."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1000)

> "there's 350 words that have been removed out of research, one of them being women, female, race, all of those, you know, biases, like crazy amounts of things have been removed."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1095)

> "I work in the tech world and, and experimenting and playing with it and seeing how women's voices are disappearing, on these algorithms is unbelievable."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [18:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1121)

> "that's why I started Conscious Leaders. I started it with the intent of unity. I want change agents. I want people that think like me, do things like me. I'm not in competition with you."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1144)

> "January, on Oprah Winfrey's birthday, unintentionally, I didn't realize it at the moment, I started Conscious Leaders in 2024."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [21:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1296)

> "I just want to create a platform where we as women come together without the roles and the titles, where we can just be human beings and come authentically as we are."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1328)

> "with my podcast, I decided I'm going to change it from the Carmen Murray show and I'm going to focus on conscious leaders. And we brought so many women onto the show."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [22:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1375)

> "Negotiation is not just about your salary. It is not just about, your own benefits, but it's how are you negotiating for policy change? How are you negotiating for the change that you want to see?"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1445)

> "if you crack an egg from the outside, it means death. If you crack an egg from the inside, it means life. So if you build something with courage from the inside out, knowing what you're fighting for is so much easier"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Women in leadership · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1468)

> "I think what we definitely need to start considering is doing audits on the people in our circles and know what they are all about, because you can't build this future with people that are all about themselves, only an individualistic."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1487)

> "there's different types of authenticity. There's authenticity where you consciously authentic, meaning that I know that I need to work on myself and who I am as a person. But then there is also rigid authenticity."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Masking and authenticity · [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1562)

> "There is a time not so far away from here where we're not going to be able to know what's real and what's not. And we must at least be able to tell who's real and who's not in our circles"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [27:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1642)

> "we don't like what we're seeing over there, but we can build something better here. Let's build a parallel system. And I'm busy building a parallel system."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [28:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1726)

> "I'm a marketer, I'm a technographer, I'm a numerologist, I'm all of these amazing things, but I'm confusing people because boxy people wants boxy answers."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Background · [29:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1745)

> "they say in futurism, don't shame the trend, which I totally agree with, but I think it's exceptionally hard to witness where you're seeing trends going."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [29:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1780)

> "It's my side hustle where I'm literally, I'm seeing the trends when I'm working with clients. And I know clients sometimes can't act on all of these things, but if they can't act on these things, then you know what? Then I'm going to build it in Conscious Leaders."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [29:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1797)

> "Faith said to me, you should definitely call yourself a futurist. I'm like, hell, I'm not a futurist, like not like that. And she says, you are, you are one."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [30:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1822)

> "I want to take Africa to the world. I want to take these women to the world."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious Leaders movement · [30:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1852)

> "Margaret Wheatley talks about islands of sanity. So creating islands of sanity around ourselves, like little islands of where the world is normal and in our zones of influence,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Futurism and shaping the future · [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1914)

> "I do believe that in this time of uncertainty, the best gift you can give yourself is to have the beginner's mindset."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Redefining success · [32:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=1965)

> "I think success building in the future that we are going into is all about being okay not having titles. It's more about the questions you ask than the answers you receive."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Redefining success · [33:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2038)

> "if you look at artificial intelligence, it's mirroring us. I mean, people keep on forgetting it. It comes from an authentic place. And it's, we're turning AI into a god."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [34:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2085)

> "I'm not anti-AI. I don't have a problem with the tool. I have a problem how we use the tool. I have a problem with us outsourcing our thinking"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: AI as a mirror · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2106)

> "if you are making any decisions on autopilot, I would implore you to, to reverse that. So if you're buying toothpaste on autopilot, just using an example, question why are you buying that specific toothpaste on autopilot?"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious decisions · [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2212)

> "If you don't know what your own values is and what you stand for and what you don't stand for, you're making decisions blindly."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Conscious decisions · [37:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2239)

> "There's studies being done on neuro-colonialism, and the work that is being done to invade our thoughts, brain invasion without penetration of putting a device into your head."
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Attention economy · [39:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2383)

> "a person like an architect that designed a bridge, millions of cars drive on this bridge every single day. It impacts millions of people. So it's looking at just becoming conscious as one person"
> — Carmen Murray, guest · topic: Legacy · [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1613281_high.mp3#t=2480)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

On shaping the future from the inside out. This is the second episode of the Powerful Women series of On Change, where we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have shattered glass ceilings, defied expectations, and have chosen to lead on their own terms. In this energetic and insightful episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Carmen Murray, CEO of Carmen Murray Communications and the Founder of the Conscious LeadHERs movement. Carmen Murray is a reformed marketer and a futurist who wants to not only predict the future but shape it. She shares how she designed the Authentic Intelligence Framework as a counterpoint to blindly believing in AI. Her take on AI is that it mirrors human beings and that we should be feeding it with more positive and constructive messages if we want to create a more hopeful future. The conversation explores how women can disrupt without losing themselves, the importance of building inner capacity before chasing external success, and Carmen's vision for a more inclusive future. Carmen shares how the Conscious LeadHers movement was born and how it is now helping women to step into visible and meaningful leadership. "...and that's how authentic intelligence framework was born. It basically says in order for us to work in tandem with artificial intelligence, we need to be our best versions of ourselves because technology is a reflection of who we are. It's a mirror to who we are." - Carmen Murray Connect with Carmen · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #043 We Need New Leaders | Charlotte Otter

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/043-we-need-new-leaders/
- Date: 2025-09-09 (as at 2025-09-09)
- Guest: Charlotte Otter
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Radical redesign of leadership, Reputation as leadership tool, Authenticity and vulnerability, Clear, credible, connected leaders, Inclusive leadership and meetings, Women in corporate leadership, Charlotte's career journey
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1595545
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3

### About the guest: Charlotte Otter

- speaker, leadership coach, and former journalist
- Author of We Need New Leaders and two novels set in South Africa; over twenty years leading executive communications in global tech and industrial firms; MSc in Change Leadership, for which she interviewed 40 diverse leaders.

In their own words:

> "So my first two were novels set in South Africa, and now I've published my first nonfiction book. So I'm, I am living the life of an author, and it feels pretty great." [01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=110)

> "So the next step was journalism, and after doing, English honors at UCT, I then did the, journalism post-grad course at Stellenbosch, and then moved into journalism as my first gig out of university." [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=148)

> "So when I left corporate in 2022, I went back to university after 30 years and did an MSc in Change Leadership. And the thesis that I wrote was on reputation, so how the CEO and the head of comms build trust to manage and mitigate reputational risk." [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=204)

> "So through the book and my own podcast, which is called Speech Bubbles, I have interviewed amazing leaders." [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1705)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani opens her Powerful Women series with Charlotte Otter, a former journalist and corporate communicator whose book We Need New Leaders grew out of an MSc thesis on reputation. Charlotte argues that the loud, confident leadership archetype is failing, and that leaders should be clear, credible and connected. She treats reputation as an underused power tool, urges people to keep and tell a record of success, including their mistakes, and makes the case for training people managers in inclusivity and psychological safety. She illustrates this with stories from the 40 leaders she interviewed and from her own corporate career.

**Key ideas**

- Charlotte argues that we privilege confidence over competence and hold an archetype of leadership that is not serving us. ([08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=493) [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=493) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=523))
- Charlotte proposes that new leaders be clear (transparent), credible (words matching behaviour) and connected (empathy from overcoming obstacles). ([09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=564) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=577) [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=586) [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=643))
- Charlotte says reputation equity is a power tool: doing a good job is only 50% of the job; you also have to talk about it. ([11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=680) [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=708) [11:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=717) [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=750))
- Charlotte, citing The Authority Gap, holds that a stellar record of success is a buffer against bias, and that the record must be told. ([13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=806) [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=810) [13:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=818))
- Charlotte argues that showing vulnerability and mistakes builds connection, and that choosing silence also chooses it for those who follow. ([14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=863) [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=927) [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=927))
- Charlotte contends that poorly trained managers drive burnout and that inclusivity plus psychological safety produce radical candor and innovation. ([22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1363) [23:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1387) [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1409) [24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1452))
- With DEI programmes being deprioritised, Charlotte says the onus falls on individuals, and that by showing up they build the system. ([29:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1783) [29:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1798) [30:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1811))

**Running an inclusive meeting** ([22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1363) [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1498) [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1517))

1. Send an agenda in advance so people know the topic.
2. Send it a week before, not five minutes before, so people have time to think.
3. A few days before, tell a typically silent team member they are the expert on the topic.
4. Ask them to plan five minutes so they have something to say.

**Lessons**

- Charlotte advises not relying on doing good work alone. Record your successes and show them through stages, podcasts, thought leadership and social media. ([11:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=717) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=806) [27:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1656))
- Charlotte says to lean on your expertise, credibility and passions when building a profile, including stories from outside work. ([16:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=976))
- Charlotte urges future women leaders to drop perfection and masking, and to be comfortable asking for feedback. ([26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1577) [29:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1761))
- Charlotte's interviews point to self-knowledge, empathy and thoughtful use of language as common traits of authentic leaders. ([18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1129) [20:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1231))
- Charlotte suggests that leaders letting teams see some of their messiness helps free others from pressure to be perfect. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1265) [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1328))

**Who it's for:** Women and people from underrepresented groups who want to advance in corporate leadership, people managers wanting to run more inclusive teams, and communications professionals interested in reputation as a leadership tool.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Charlotte left corporate in 2022 and returned to university after 30 years to do an MSc in Change Leadership. ([03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=204))
- We Need New Leaders is Charlotte's third book, after two novels set in South Africa. ([01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=110))
- Charlotte studied English honours at UCT and a journalism postgraduate course at Stellenbosch. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=148))
- Charlotte hosts her own podcast, called Speech Bubbles. ([28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1705))
- One senior leader Charlotte interviewed led a software organisation team of around three thousand people. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1265))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is wrong with the traditional model of leadership?**
A: Charlotte argues, drawing on Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic's work, that we privilege confidence over competence and instinctively recognise a loud, extrovert archetype that is not serving us. ([08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=493) [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=493) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=523))

**Q: What does it mean for a leader to be clear, credible and connected?**
A: Charlotte says clarity means transparency rather than hoarding information. Credibility means your words and behaviour match. Connection comes from empathy built by overcoming obstacles. ([09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=564) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=577) [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=586) [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=643))

**Q: Why does reputation matter for career advancement?**
A: Charlotte calls reputation equity a power tool. She says doing a good job is only half the job, and that if you don't talk about your work, no one else may. ([11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=708) [11:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=717) [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=750))

**Q: How can women counter bias in the workplace?**
A: Citing The Authority Gap, Charlotte says a stellar record of success buffers against bias. She stresses recording it and telling it through stages, podcasts, thought leadership and social media, mistakes included. ([13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=806) [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=810) [14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=863))

**Q: How do I make meetings more inclusive for quiet or neurodiverse people?**
A: Charlotte suggests sending the agenda a week ahead. A few days before, tell a quiet team member they are the expert and ask them to prepare five minutes. ([24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1498) [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1517))

**Q: Why is there a burnout epidemic at work?**
A: Charlotte says it is not because of CEOs but because managers are often not great and are unevenly trained. She would train them in people skills, starting with inclusivity. ([23:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1387) [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1409))

**Q: What is the difference between single-loop and double-loop leaders?**
A: Charlotte explains that single-loop leaders just fix a problem. Double-loop leaders fix it and then ask their teams what in their own behaviour contributed and how to avoid it recurring. ([04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=285))

**Q: What advice is there for a woman doubting whether she should lead?**
A: Charlotte's advice: stop doubting, you're there for a reason, believe your own PR and get on with it. ([29:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1761))


### Passage: How a thesis and apartheid childhood sparked the book [03:22–05:43, 389 words]

Note (AI): Explains the origins of We Need New Leaders and the single-loop versus double-loop leader distinction that frames Charlotte's argument.

Charlotte Otter, guest [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=202):
> Yeah, it came out of a thesis. So when I left corporate in 2022, I went back to university after 30 years and did an MSc in Change Leadership. And the thesis that I wrote was on reputation, so how the CEO and the head of comms build trust to manage and mitigate reputational risk. When that was finished, I spoke to my two professors and asked, you know, how should I take this forward? And the one said, well, you could do a PhD, and the other said you could write a business book. And I thought, well, a business book will be quicker, and it sounds more fun, so I think I'm going to do that. But really, the there are a couple of sort of genesis points of we need new leaders. And one is Having grown up in South Africa during apartheid, even as a, a, a white person who, who, who nomi, who benefited from apartheid, you know, we still switched on the TV and saw and heard those terrible leaders that we had in those days. So having been a child immersed in terrible leaders, but also having see, lived through the change in South Africa, as an adult, there was the sense of things can get better and they can be transformed. And then during my course, another thing that was a spark was, I learned about, double loop and single loop leaders. And single loop leaders are leaders who see a problem, fix the problem. Problem goes away. Double loop leaders are leaders who see the problem, throw the resources at the problem, fix the problem, and then say to their teams, what was it in my behavior That contributed to causing this problem, and what do I need to look out for in the future to make sure that I don't cause this problem again? And if I look back at my corporate career through the lens of single and double loop leaders, there's a very stark division. There's no gray area. So, people fall into one of the other categories. And so that really started to make me think that the extremely personal behavior of a leader has an incredibly intensive positive or negative effect on the people who report to them. And how could I explore that further?


### Passage: What clear, credible and connected leadership means [09:24–11:09, 238 words]

Note (AI): Defines each of the three qualities Charlotte proposes for new leaders and ties credibility to reputation and the trust gap.

Charlotte Otter, guest [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=564):
> Yeah, so clear, Brené Brown says clarity is kindness, and I do believe that the more clear leaders can be, the, the kinder and more helpful it is to their team. So transparency, instead of retaining information, keeping it to yourselves, using it for political gain. So I think clarity and transparency are really important. Credibility comes down to authenticity, and it, credibility also is closely tied into reputation, because you become not credible if your words and your behaviors don't match, and that is, what I often say is, you know, the trust gap or where reputation fails. So leaders who Who, tell a big story and, and use words and use narratives, but then behave in a completely different way, are actually actively making themselves not credible to their teams and to their audiences. And then what was the third C? It was connected. Connected, yeah. So, you know, that is about emotion. And what came up in my research is leaders from diverse backgrounds, diverse identities, underrepresented minorities have gone through obstacles to get where they are in corporates. Those obstacles help them to have empathy for themselves, first of all, and then for others as well. And that empathy makes them connected to their teams and the people that they're leading. And they have an understanding of inclusivity and how, it sounds weird, but how inclusivity actually builds candor. Debate and innovation in teams.


### Passage: Reputation equity and effective telling [11:20–12:52, 261 words]

Note (AI): Charlotte's core case that doing good work is only half the job and that people must talk about their work.

Charlotte Otter, guest [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=680):
> Yeah, reputation is really important to me, and it, and it wasn't something I knew was important to me. It just sort of grew over the years as I worked with executives on their profiles. I, I started to realize, oh, this is reputational. And then I did the thesis on how the CEO and the head of comms build trust to manage and mitigate reputational risk. And what I'm saying now to leaders with ambition to lead, but who may not be of the leadership norm, is Your reputation equity is a power tool that you can use to really rocket fuel your way in the corporation. And, you know, there's so many examples of people who believe that just doing a good job is enough. And I'm saying that's 50% of the job. You have to talk about it. You have to show to your audiences that your abilities, you have to be able to record and demonstrate. And it's about, what's known as effective telling. So, you know, people resist this talking about themselves because they're like, oh, it's self-promotion. Oh, it gives me the ick. Oh, I'm not comfortable with it. But if you don't talk about your own work, Who's going to? I mean, you might be lucky enough to have one sponsor in the organization. Not everybody does. Maybe your sponsor's talking about you. But you need to find ways to show the people who matter in your organization what you can do so that you're in the running for the next great leadership role.


### Passage: Record of success, vulnerability and building bridges [13:26–15:32, 364 words]

Note (AI): Gives practical channels for telling your story, argues mistakes are valid content, and links personal visibility to the next generation.

Charlotte Otter, guest [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=806):
> One of the things that women face in the workplace is this idea of the authority gap. This is another book that I lent on while writing mine, The Authority Gap by Mary Ann Seacott. And she says, having a stellar record of success is a buffer against bias. So that bias that's inherent in the authority gap. And for me, the emphasis is on the word record. How do you find the way to tell the story? So what are the stages you're showing up on? What are the podcasts you're appearing in? What is the thought leadership that you're writing? What are the social media platforms that you're using? The tools are all there. The tools are there. But the onus is on the individual to start to use them and tell the stories. And they don't all have to be stories of perfection. They don't all have to be magical stories of I took this step and then the next step and then the next step. It's equally valid to talk about the mistakes. You know, it's equally valid to be vulnerable. It's equally valid to go, you know, I've reached this point, but here are the errors that I made along the way. Because that is the way that you build connective tissue with your audiences and people who are listening to you is by being vulnerable and by being real and showing the errors that you've made along the way. So it's not about projecting perfectionism, but it's just showing up as a fully realized human being and saying, this is my experience. This is where I've got to. This is how I've done it. And by doing that, not only are you representing for the women who follow and creating a role model for them, but by actively building a reputation, you're actually building a bridge. It's an act of power that helps the next generation to follow you. So You know, women who choose silence are not only choosing it for themselves or people from underrepresented minorities, diverse identities. If you choose silence, you're choosing it for the people who follow you, and that's really not fair.


### Passage: Training managers and running inclusive meetings [22:43–25:50, 526 words]

Note (AI): Charlotte's answer on redesigning leadership, including concrete steps managers can use to make meetings inclusive.

Charlotte Otter, guest [22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1363):
> Yeah, so one of the things that became obvious to me when I became a leader, or a manager of a large global team, was nobody prepares you. So there may be some manager training, but it's uneven. It's uneven within organizations. It's uneven between organizations. It's uneven country to country. We're not very good at training our managers. And our managers are so important because they are the culture translators from the C-suite to employees. They are the technology innovators, and they are the people Who make the difference to individuals. I mean, you know, we have a burnout epidemic. We don't have a burnout epidemic because the CEO said a mean thing. We have a burnout epidemic because managers are often not great. So I would focus very much on people managers and training them with, with people skills, and I would start with inclusivity. I think inclusivity is absolutely critical in terms of giving a team the sense of freedom that every voice is valid. I mean, we've all been in team meetings where the two loud people do all the talking, everybody's silent, and then afterwards at the coffee corner or at the water cooler, everyone's going, well, that was a bit useless, wasn't it? And I didn't like the way they said that, but no one feels safe to speak up. So psychological safety, people feel safe to speak up, inclusivity, make sure all the voices are heard, and if you have those in place with trust, that is when you get radical candor. And you get creative abrasion and you actually start to innovate.

Petro du Pisani, host [24:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1470):
> Yeah, and I, I really think that leaders should be noticing who's not speaking at the table. Yes. And, and calling on those people to give them voices around any table that we have a meeting.

Charlotte Otter, guest [24:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1481):
> May I say something more about this? So something I've really thought about a lot is how do you actually make a meeting more inclusive? And I think that if somebody is neurodiverse and you call out of, on them out of the blue, you're going to scare that person. So one way to make a meeting more inclusive is to send an agenda in advance so people know what the topic is. And don't send it five minutes before. Send it a week before so people have got time to think. If you want to be sure that the introverts or the young people or the typically silent in your team aren't always silent, You call on somebody the, the day before and you say, or, or a few days before and you say, hey, this is the topic we're talking about in this meeting. You are the expert. I want you to plan five minutes and make sure that you, you've got something to say because the team really, really needs to hear from you. So managers actually have to learn how to actively run inclusive meetings that, that ensure that all voices are heard. Otherwise, meetings will always be dominated by, you know, the two to three loud voices and everyone's bored of hearing those guys talk.


### Quotes

> "I felt like I was wearing somebody else's coat."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=416)

> "And his thesis is that we privilege Confidence over competence."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=493)

> "Brené Brown says clarity is kindness, and I do believe that the more clear leaders can be, the, the kinder and more helpful it is to their team."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [09:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=566)

> "Your reputation equity is a power tool that you can use to really rocket fuel your way in the corporation."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=708)

> "But if you don't talk about your own work, Who's going to?"
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=750)

> "having a stellar record of success is a buffer against bias."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [13:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=818)

> "If you choose silence, you're choosing it for the people who follow you, and that's really not fair."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=927)

> "our reputations are built up of our expertise, our credibility, and our passions. So I think what I would say to people who are, who have a sense of resistance towards using social media to build their profiles You have years of expertise, lean on that. You have exceptional amounts of credibility, lean on that. And you have passion, lean on those. Tell your passion stories."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [16:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=961)

> "their name is David Nath. David grew up in India, had a very strong scientific bent, and is a data scientist, and also presents one hundred percent as non-binary. So, David is bearded, wears a dress, wears makeup, earrings, and their incredible courage of starting a new job in Ireland, showing up in the way they wanted to show up, which was wearing, dresses, without asking HR what the policies were on how people show up at work."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1029)

> "I was lucky enough to work with, one board member in particular, Adaire Fox-Martin, who was always calm, no matter how things looked. And if I look at Adair, she had incredibly deep self-knowledge. She has a great sense of humor, which really helps when there's a crisis, amazing empathy for others, and had no fear of asking for feedback, and also had no fear of asking the opinions of others."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1129)

> "We have a burnout epidemic because managers are often not great."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1413)

> "stop doubting. You're there for a reason. Believe your own PR and get on with it."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [29:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1761)

> "by showing up for yourself, owning your reputation, keeping a stellar record of success, doing the effective telling, you're telling the next generation how to do it."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · [30:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1811)


### Claims

> "So my first two were novels set in South Africa, and now I've published my first nonfiction book. So I'm, I am living the life of an author, and it feels pretty great."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Charlotte's career journey · [01:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=110)

> "So the next step was journalism, and after doing, English honors at UCT, I then did the, journalism post-grad course at Stellenbosch, and then moved into journalism as my first gig out of university."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Charlotte's career journey · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=148)

> "But it's also humans and what makes them tick. So I'm not a psychologist and I'm, I'm not a trained coach, but I'm so fascinated by indi, individual people and what makes them show up the way that they do."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Charlotte's career journey · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=169)

> "So when I left corporate in 2022, I went back to university after 30 years and did an MSc in Change Leadership. And the thesis that I wrote was on reputation, so how the CEO and the head of comms build trust to manage and mitigate reputational risk."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=204)

> "So having been a child immersed in terrible leaders, but also having see, lived through the change in South Africa, as an adult, there was the sense of things can get better and they can be transformed."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Radical redesign of leadership · [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=261)

> "And single loop leaders are leaders who see a problem, fix the problem. Problem goes away. Double loop leaders are leaders who see the problem, throw the resources at the problem, fix the problem, and then say to their teams, what was it in my behavior That contributed to causing this problem, and what do I need to look out for in the future to make sure that I don't cause this problem again?"
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Radical redesign of leadership · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=285)

> "And so that really started to make me think that the extremely personal behavior of a leader has an incredibly intensive positive or negative effect on the people who report to them."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Radical redesign of leadership · [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=326)

> "So I talk about when I became a leader, and I became a leader myself quite late in corporate, that I felt like leadership was a coat I was putting on, and it didn't feel comfortable at first. I felt like I was wearing somebody else's coat."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Women in corporate leadership · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=405)

> "So you almost feel like you have to lead like a man, to get anything done in that environment, but it's not necessary. You can just be your own authentic self, and it brings a completely different flavor and a different perspective to people who you are leading."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women in corporate leadership · [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=451)

> "And his thesis is that we privilege Confidence over competence. So we privilege what looks like leadership over competence, and we almost have an archetype."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Radical redesign of leadership · [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=493)

> "So my sense of urgency with we need new leaders is the archetype is not serving us. Just take a look at the world that we're in. It's not doing us any good at all."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Radical redesign of leadership · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=523)

> "So transparency, instead of retaining information, keeping it to yourselves, using it for political gain. So I think clarity and transparency are really important."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Clear, credible, connected leaders · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=577)

> "Credibility comes down to authenticity, and it, credibility also is closely tied into reputation, because you become not credible if your words and your behaviors don't match, and that is, what I often say is, you know, the trust gap or where reputation fails."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Clear, credible, connected leaders · [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=586)

> "Those obstacles help them to have empathy for themselves, first of all, and then for others as well. And that empathy makes them connected to their teams and the people that they're leading."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Clear, credible, connected leaders · [10:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=643)

> "Your reputation equity is a power tool that you can use to really rocket fuel your way in the corporation."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=708)

> "And, you know, there's so many examples of people who believe that just doing a good job is enough. And I'm saying that's 50% of the job. You have to talk about it."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [11:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=717)

> "But if you don't talk about your own work, Who's going to? I mean, you might be lucky enough to have one sponsor in the organization. Not everybody does."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=750)

> "This is another book that I lent on while writing mine, The Authority Gap by Mary Ann Seacott. And she says, having a stellar record of success is a buffer against bias."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Women in corporate leadership · [13:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=810)

> "It's equally valid to talk about the mistakes. You know, it's equally valid to be vulnerable. It's equally valid to go, you know, I've reached this point, but here are the errors that I made along the way."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=863)

> "If you choose silence, you're choosing it for the people who follow you, and that's really not fair."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=927)

> "You have years of expertise, lean on that. You have exceptional amounts of credibility, lean on that. And you have passion, lean on those. Tell your passion stories."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [16:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=976)

> "So, David is bearded, wears a dress, wears makeup, earrings, and their incredible courage of starting a new job in Ireland, showing up in the way they wanted to show up, which was wearing, dresses, without asking HR what the policies were on how people show up at work."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [17:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1044)

> "I was lucky enough to work with, one board member in particular, Adaire Fox-Martin, who was always calm, no matter how things looked. And if I look at Adair, she had incredibly deep self-knowledge."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1129)

> "the commonalities were the obstacles that they'd been through, the depth of self-knowledge, and that ongoing journey of self-knowledge, empathy for those around them, incredible thoughtfulness about how they showed up."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Clear, credible, connected leaders · [20:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1231)

> "So one very senior leader who I interviewed, she, was the president of a large part of a software organization. Her team was around three thousand people. She said she doesn't want to be seen as a leader's, as a persona of a leader,"
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1265)

> "one of our CEOs was talking about a fatality that they had to go through and having to speak to the, the parents of the person who, who died, and he was crying on stage,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1328)

> "We're not very good at training our managers. And our managers are so important because they are the culture translators from the C-suite to employees."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Inclusive leadership and meetings · [23:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1387)

> "We don't have a burnout epidemic because the CEO said a mean thing. We have a burnout epidemic because managers are often not great."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Inclusive leadership and meetings · [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1409)

> "So psychological safety, people feel safe to speak up, inclusivity, make sure all the voices are heard, and if you have those in place with trust, that is when you get radical candor."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Inclusive leadership and meetings · [24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1452)

> "So one way to make a meeting more inclusive is to send an agenda in advance so people know what the topic is. And don't send it five minutes before. Send it a week before so people have got time to think."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Inclusive leadership and meetings · [24:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1498)

> "You call on somebody the, the day before and you say, or, or a few days before and you say, hey, this is the topic we're talking about in this meeting. You are the expert."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Inclusive leadership and meetings · [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1517)

> "I think let's chuck out perfection. Let's get rid of trying to be something. Let's get rid of masking and let's practice showing up as you are and who you are"
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1577)

> "Make sure your work is seen. If you're getting other people to talk about it, or you're writing thought leadership on LinkedIn, or you're going on stages and doing speeches, or you start your own podcast,"
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [27:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1656)

> "I always used to say to, the women I was mentoring in the mining industry, get your boots on the ground. Go out there, go underground, show that you can do the work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women in corporate leadership · [28:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1681)

> "So through the book and my own podcast, which is called Speech Bubbles, I have interviewed amazing leaders."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Charlotte's career journey · [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1705)

> "I, the, the emerging leaders who I've interviewed are much more comfortable with showing up as who they are."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [28:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1716)

> "globally we're in a slightly weird time where diversity, equity, and inclusion programs are being deprioritized by companies or sidelined."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Inclusive leadership and meetings · [29:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1783)

> "But when it's not happening systemically, the onus is on individuals to make sure that they are showing up for, for themselves."
> — Charlotte Otter, guest · topic: Reputation as leadership tool · [29:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1595545_high.mp3#t=1798)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Reputation, Authenticity, and a Radical Redesign of Leadership. This is the first episode of a brand-new season of On Change. In this series about Powerful Women, we celebrate trail-blazing and visionary women who have shattered glass ceilings, defied expectations and have chosen to lead on their own terms. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with Charlotte Otter, author of We Need New Leaders, a book about what leadership should look like in a world that�s hungry for authenticity, clarity, and connection. Charlotte Otter is a speaker, leadership coach, and former journalist. She has over twenty years of experience in leading executive communications especially in global tech and industrial firms. She shares her personal journey from aspiring writer to corporate communicator to author, and how growing up in apartheid South Africa shaped her passion for better leadership. Drawing on her MSc in Change Leadership (HEC Paris, Oxford Sa�d), for which she interviewed 40 diverse leaders, she challenges the traditional archetype of leadership and advocates for a radical redesign of leadership rooted in empathy, credibility, and inclusivity. �By showing up for yourself, owning your reputation, keeping a stellar record of success, and doing the effective telling - you�re showing the next generation how to lead. In fact, by doing that, you�re building the system. It�s extremely important work.� � Charlotte Otter Read 'We Need New Leaders' � Connect with Solid Gold � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #042 Special Focus on Seasonality | Amy Martin

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/042-special-focus-on-seasonality/
- Date: 2025-02-26 (as at 2025-02-26)
- Guest: Amy Martin
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Seasonality and life cycles, Burnout and rest, Menstrual cycle awareness, Rest and renewal practices, Coaching with seasonal metaphors, Energy at work, Leadership and self-care, Books on rest
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1531189
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3

### About the guest: Amy Martin

- coach and organization development practitioner
- Has spent two decades in leadership, mainly in the veterinary sector. Doing a master's researching rest, renewal and seasonality, including menstrual, circadian and academic cycles, after experiencing burnout three times.

In their own words:

> "professionally, I'm a coach and organization development practitioner, and I have spent two decades in leadership, mainly in the veterinary sector." [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=39)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

In the last episode of Petro du Pisani's series on conscious breaks from work, she talks with Amy Martin, a coach and organization development practitioner with two decades of leadership in the veterinary sector. Amy describes how three burnouts led to master's research on rest and renewal. She maps her energy to her menstrual cycle and uses the metaphor of the seasons. The conversation covers other cycles such as circadian, job and academic cycles. It also covers the rest practices Amy adopted, how she uses a seasonal check-in in coaching, and how organisations and leaders could plan work around energy. It closes with the books that shaped her research.

**Key ideas**

- Amy argues rest should be built into the everyday by planning for predictable energy dips, as animals plan for winter, rather than pushing through until burnout forces a stop. ([03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=193) [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=376) [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=390) [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=399))
- Amy says permission to rest has to come from herself rather than from others, and that she now asks others directly for what she needs. ([02:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=164) [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=767) [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=782))
- Amy holds that cycles go beyond the menstrual cycle to circadian rhythm, stage of life, job cycles and academic cycles, and that talking about them helps people connect. ([03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=223) [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=489) [08:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=513) [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=563))
- Amy uses the seasons as a gentle, less threatening metaphor in coaching, with the check-in 'what season are you in today?'. She notes that winter can be nourishing, not only negative. ([15:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=951) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=995) [16:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1018) [19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1151))
- Amy suggests planning gentler deep work in low-energy seasons and more interactive work in high-energy ones. She says individuals and managers have more say over day-to-day interactions than over corporate narrative. ([19:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1199) [21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1261) [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1322) [23:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1407))
- Petro and Amy both argue that leaders need to notice their team's energy. Amy adds that a leader can only do this after looking after themselves first. ([27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1641) [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1682) [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1722) [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1736))
- Petro describes wintering as either passive rest or an active process of reflection. In her own year off, her body clicked into project mode after four or five months. ([10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=627) [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=659) [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=671))

**Seasonal check-in in coaching conversations** ([15:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=951) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=995) [16:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1018))

1. Explain a little about her own research and cycle awareness, noting it might not apply to the client.
2. Ask whether there are any cycles in the client's life.
3. Use a simple check-in: what season are you in today?
4. If the client is happy to share, ask a few more questions.
5. Be curious about what that season means to them, not assuming winter is negative.

**Lessons**

- Amy found that burning out is not proper rest and that she had to learn how to rest, through reading, journaling and Yoga Nidra. ([11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=711) [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=723) [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=746))
- Amy advises planning downtime after work that requires extroversion, instead of charging into the next thing. ([11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=711) [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=837))
- Amy says you need not disclose your cycle at work. Being aware of it lets you organise your calendar differently. ([23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1392) [23:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1407))
- Amy argues everyone can take periods of rest even if a sabbatical is a privilege, citing Tricia Hershey's Rest is Resistance. ([24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1477) [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1502))
- Petro observes that much busyness is self-imposed, pushed until the body refuses to continue. ([29:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1777))

**Who it's for:** Coaches, organisation development practitioners, managers and professionals prone to overwork who want ways to recognise energy cycles, plan rest into everyday work, and open gentle conversations about seasonality, including menstrual cycle awareness, with colleagues and clients.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Amy Martin has spent two decades in leadership, mainly in the veterinary sector. ([00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=39))
- Amy experienced burnout three times: chronic fatigue syndrome, a mental health breakdown, and stress-related thyroiditis. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=98))
- Amy's research uses autoethnography into listening to her body and taking periods of rest. ([02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=172))
- Petro planned a year off to rest and reflect but rested for one month of it. ([10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=627))
- Petro says her corporate days were sometimes packed with meetings from six in the morning to six at night. ([20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1203))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is seasonality in the context of rest and energy?**
A: Amy uses the seasons as a metaphor for where she is in her cycles, for example saying she is 'wintering' today. She says this lets people plan for low-energy periods as animals plan for winter. ([01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=98) [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=244) [04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=257) [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=376))

**Q: How can tracking the menstrual cycle help with work planning?**
A: Amy tracks her cycle to anticipate energy dips. She plans rest, earlier bedtimes, and gentler deep or reflective work, such as data analysis, on those days rather than back-to-back meetings. ([03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=193) [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=711) [21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1261))

**Q: Are there cycles other than the menstrual cycle that affect energy?**
A: Amy lists circadian rhythm (lark or owl), stage of life, job cycles, and academic cycles, where the rest period is often in summer. ([08:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=513) [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=563))

**Q: How can a coach use seasons with clients?**
A: Amy explains her cycle awareness, asks if clients have cycles, then uses the check-in 'what season are you in today?' and stays curious about what that season means to them. ([15:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=951) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=995) [16:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1018))

**Q: How do I rest if I've never learned how?**
A: Amy says she did not know how to rest. She turned to retreating with a book, journaling, Yoga Nidra, asking others for help, and restorative sleep. ([11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=711) [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=723) [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=746) [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=767))

**Q: Do I need to tell colleagues about my period to adjust my workload?**
A: Amy says no. There is stigma attached, but awareness lets you organise work differently and excuse yourself from certain things, and perhaps have the conversation in time. ([23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1392) [23:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1407))

**Q: What books are good on rest and cycles?**
A: Petro and Amy cite Wintering by Katherine May. Amy adds Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hershey, Wild Power on menstrual cycle awareness, and Quiet by Susan Cain. ([04:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=284) [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1469) [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1477) [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1557))

**Q: What can leaders do about team energy levels?**
A: Petro suggests leaders notice when people have less energy and ask what's going on. Amy adds that leaders must look after themselves first or they won't slow down enough to notice. ([27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1641) [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1682) [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1722))


### Passage: Three burnouts lead to research on cycles [01:38–04:27, 575 words]

Note (AI): Amy's origin story: three burnouts, the permission question, and how she built an autoethnographic study mapping energy to her menstrual cycle and the seasons metaphor.

Amy Martin, guest [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=98):
> I guess you could say I've been taking unconscious breaks from work in terms of burnout, and I've experienced that three times in my professional life. Once a period of chronic fatigue syndrome, and then a mental health breakdown, and finally a period of thyroiditis, which turned out to be stress-related. I sort of thought, well, why am I doing this? Why do I keep doing this? You know, is there a way to plan for this to kind of make sure that it doesn't take me by surprise again, really? Shame that I've done it three times and only come to that realization. But I started to look at, oh, why was I doing it? And I think some of that is down to kind of being a woman and never feeling like I can rest as a, as a mom, as a woman, there's always things to do, and I, and I work as well. And I guess I wasn't listening to my body. And I was working as a, as a veterinary professional, you know, putting my patients first all the time. And I think I, I was cut off at the neck, essentially, and not really listening to the signs and, and symptoms from my body that I was burning out, tending to sort of intellectualize it and brush it away in, instead. And, I guess looking around thinking, oh, who's going to tell me I can have a rest? But actually that had to come from me. And so what I've been doing through my research project is some autoethnography really into how, you know, how can I listen to my body better? How can I take periods of rest? And, and rather than a sort of sabbatical or an extended period of rests, like your other guests have been taking, I wanted to build it into the everyday. So what I've been doing is I've been looking at my hormonal cycle, my menstrual cycle, as a way to map my energy and realizing that as I go through that hormonal cycle, I definitely have dips in my energy where I can't do as much as I would, as I would normally do. And taking that as an opportunity each, each month to make sure that I, I get rest and, and knowing that that's coming up, being able to plan for it and plan my work around it. So that's been the first part of my research. And then I've been starting to think, well, okay, if these cycles apply to me, then do they apply to other people? And how, you know, what about us socially? And if you're in a different cycle to me and in a different season than me, what is it that our interactions might be like, our relationships might be like? And obviously then through my organization development lens, what does this mean for us at work? So that's it really in a nutshell and kind of using the metaphor of the seasons to talk about where I am in my cycle, because it's quite a taboo subject, so I don't want to kind of walk in and lead with that, but you know, leading, coming in and leading with, I'm a bit, I feel like I'm, I'm wintering today, you know, maybe that would be a good way of, of opening this conversation with people who may be experiencing their own seasonality.


### Passage: How Amy now practises rest [11:51–14:06, 457 words]

Note (AI): Concrete practices she adopted: retreating with books, journaling, Yoga Nidra, asking for help, cycle tracking, sleep, and planning recharge time after extroverted work.

Amy Martin, guest [11:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=711):
> Yeah, I, yeah, I have applied it, and, and it has to be a real conscious effort, doesn't it, really? You know, in the same way that eating healthily and, and, and exercising have to be a really conscious effort. And what I realized is that I didn't know how to rest either. So because I hadn't rested for so long, I'd just burnt out, which is not really proper rest. I didn't know what, I didn't know what to do. But actually as an introvert, I really, really love retreating with a book and being quiet and being on my own. So I've done quite a bit more of that. I've done journaling. and I've also taken up Yoga Nidra, which is essentially, I've done yoga for years, but actually I'd never thought about just lying on my back before and, and doing yoga that way. And that's been fantastic because when I've not been able to switch off, I can, there's a process I can harness to actually switch my mind off and, and rest properly. And asking others really for what, for what I need. So instead of looking to them to give me permission to rest, I've said, at this moment, I really need to retreat and, and rest. And would it be okay if you did X, Y, and Z so that I can achieve that? And that's been a huge help, you know, because people don't realize you need help unless you ask for it. But, you know, again, I had this, issue where I, you know, I didn't think that I should be asking for help. People needed to notice that I was struggling. And actually, you know, it, it comes from me. I have to be, you know, adult enough to ask if I need, if I need some help. So those are the principles that I've kind of taken forward with me from this, from this research project. And then obviously tracking my menstrual cycle. I know when I need to rest or when it is likely that I will need to rest. And also when I need to go to bed earlier and get more sleep and not stay up and watch the TV and, and that kind of thing, you know, like actually really planning for bedtime and having really, really restorative sleep, is something that's become really important. I have to extrovert for my job quite a bit and kind of knowing that as an introvert, I will need that recharge time. You know, making sure that if I've got something that I need to do where the extra version is required, planning in the downtime afterwards instead of just charging into the next thing.


### Passage: Using the seasons metaphor in coaching [15:51–17:30, 333 words]

Note (AI): Explains how she opens coaching conversations about cycles and the 'what season are you in today?' check-in, and why winter is not necessarily negative.

Amy Martin, guest [15:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=951):
> Yeah, I found the season, the concept of seasonality a really interesting one to kind of talk to my coaches about. You know, it's just a kind of opening conversation that I kind of explain a little bit about what I've been doing and, and my cycle awareness. To say, and that might, might not apply to you, but are there any cycles that you have in your life? And, and sometimes people are like, oh no, I definitely don't have any cycles. And then you see the kind of cogs whirring and they start thinking and they're like, oh yeah, there is that thing and this is where, you know, and, and then off they go. So yeah, it's been really interesting to kind of discuss different cycles with, with people. And then as, as I said, with the, the overlayer then of the metaphor of the seasons, it means that we can then have conversations, you know, just a, just a simple check-in. What season are you in today? Then you sort of get a sense of, of where people are. And then you can ask a few more questions about that and providing they're happy to. To share, then you can, you can be curious about what that season means to them, because the other thing is, that I've discovered is that, you know, someone says winter, it's not necessarily negative or that they, you know, dislike winter. There's lots of people that love rest and retreat and, and the sort of wintering, to use the Katherine May terminology, and it can be nourishing and wonderful. And yes, it can be hard as well, because Catherine talks about periods of grief and periods of illness and that kind of thing. So yes, it can be hard, but also winter can be very nourishing. So it's important to really be curious and inspect what people mean when they say that they're in winter or summer and, and use that seasonality metaphor.


### Passage: Aligning work with energy in busy organisations [19:59–22:28, 475 words]

Note (AI): Moves the idea into the workplace: scheduling gentle deep work in low-energy seasons, damage limitation, and the role of managers in day-to-day interactions.

Petro du Pisani, host [19:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1199):
> I, I'm just thinking back to my corporate life and how my days were jam-packed with meetings from sometimes six in the morning to six at night. And people would take a little fifteen minute sliver in my calendar and just put something in there. And there was absolutely no regard to what my energy levels might be for the day. So I'm wondering how, how you actually bring that into a conversation in, in your corporate life to say, you know, what, my energy levels are quite low today. Perhaps we can move some of this to tomorrow. I don't, for me, it's almost, I can't even think that I could have had that conversation. Yeah.

Amy Martin, guest [20:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1236):
> And that's, I guess that's what I'm hoping to do with my research and my organization development practice really is, is to start to have those types of conversations in busy organizations where it has to be done now. Does it really, or can we, can we plan a bit better around that? And I'm not suggesting that, you know, I'm going to say, oh, you know, today I'm premenstrual, so I can't do any work. I'm, I'm not suggesting that we, that we do that. What I'm suggesting is that I plan to do the more gentle work in that season rather than be, as I said before, extroverted and in all the meetings and back to back everything, you know, maybe I can do the deep work, the reflective work, the data analysis, that kind of thing on those days. Because I will feel that that's a little bit more gentle. And genuinely, I find interaction with other people difficult during that period. So it's, you know, it's more, it's harder for me to have really good conversations in that, in that time because I, you know, I'm, I'm kind of stressed and irritable and I don't sleep very well. And so actually damage limitation says that I'd be better off having that conversation in summer anyway, because, you know, maybe I'll have to repair some of the damage if I have that conversation at, at a different time. And, and I would hope that if we can open this conversation in organizations, that it will really help leaders and managers to kind of have those conversations with their, with their teams, because I don't think we're going to change the corporate narrative, you know, the directives that come from above, but actually the day-to-day interactions between ourselves, we do have more jurisdiction over that and we, and we can choose our work more kindly as long as our direct kind of leaders and managers Attention to us as individuals and, and help us with that. It'd go as far as to say what's stopping you from putting a yoga nidra in your calendar at lunchtime.


### Passage: Recommended books on rest and cycles [24:29–26:30, 370 words]

Note (AI): Amy names the resources behind her research: Rest is Resistance, Wild Power, and Quiet, with why each mattered to her.

Amy Martin, guest [24:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1469):
> I'll try not to go into a huge bibliography of all the things I've been reading. but yeah, in particular, related to our last point, Tricia Hershey's book, Rest is Resistance. I don't know if you've come across that one. but she, she talks about, you know, we, we have ownership over ourselves. And, and actually, you know, we need to take control of that. We need to take periods of rest because nobody is going to do that for us. So we have to take control of that. and she talks about, you know, even people from underprivileged backgrounds, you know, taking a sabbatical is a huge privilege, of course, but actually, we can all take periods of rest. And it doesn't have to be a sabbatical. It can be something, something different, something that looks different depending on, on each person. So, so that was a fantastic, read. And then, Wild Power by Sanjeev Woolitzer and, Alexandra Pope. Book about the menstrual cycle awareness. And you mentioned the menopause, and I think it's really important that this conversation needs to start earlier, I think, that the menopause. you know, why should we wait till then when it gets really bad to kind of, you know, start to talk about what women, women are experiencing in, in the workplace and, you know, maybe some menstrual cycle awareness for all of us from an earlier age would be, would be really useful and helpful. Certainly for people that, you know, suffer with menstrual related conditions as well and, and really have a, a difficult time. And then Quiet by Susan Cain was the third one that I came up with, which again, as an introvert made me feel seen that, you know, I'm not shy. I love relationships. I love being around people, but actually I need to go away and plug in and recharge. And, maybe if I'd known that about myself a bit earlier, maybe I could have avoided the periods of, of burnout. we'll never know, but, that's Kind of what I aspire to do now is that always think about recharging, a bit like an electric car, you know, think about where you're going to recharge.


### Passage: Call to action and leading from self-care [27:21–29:04, 314 words]

Note (AI): Closing argument that leaders must notice others' energy, and can only do so by looking after themselves first.

Amy Martin, guest [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1641):
> can we go out into our workplaces, into our homes, into our relationships and, and talk about the concept of, of seasonality and, and cycles and try and open up some conversations because I think we need to know each other individually in order to collectively do a good job at work. So I think it's really important to start having these conversations and, and really finding out, you know, what people's needs are and then taking responsibility for ourselves as well in order to, you know, take that rest that we deserve.

Petro du Pisani, host [27:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1674):
> It's almost like we have to become kinder and really notice what's happening to ourselves and the people who are around us, and especially if you're like a, a team manager or a team leader, is to really notice if people have periods of more energy and less energy, and maybe then ask the question, you know, what's going on today? I'm noticing that you might not be as energetic as you normally are, so is there anything I can help you as a leader to make your day easier or give you different work? So I think it's, it's almost like heralding in a new way of leadership as well, if you're in that sort of environment. Yeah.

Amy Martin, guest [28:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1712):
> And then what's really important as a leader is if we are not doing that ourselves and looking after ourselves, we can't slow down enough to notice. And I think what I noticed as a busy leader is that I didn't have time to notice my team and notice how others were, and therefore I wasn't as astute as I should have been at kind of supporting them, but it starts with you. Yeah. Support yourself first and look after yourself first, and then you can be more present for the other people in your life, whether that's colleagues or family members.


### Quotes

> "I'm a bit, I feel like I'm, I'm wintering today,"
> — Amy Martin, guest · [04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=257)

> "And animals don't fight the winter. They plan for it, and then they retreat, and then they emerge in spring as, you know, a new version of themselves."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=376)

> "the winter's going to grab you somehow. So let's plan for it instead."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=399)

> "because people don't realize you need help unless you ask for it."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=782)

> "It'd go as far as to say what's stopping you from putting a yoga nidra in your calendar at lunchtime."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1344)

> "those, those men in the room, they will have their own cycles, their own sort of seasonality. They'll be going through things themselves. And, you know, a bit of curiosity about what they might be experiencing would, would be helpful as well to open a conversation."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [23:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1422)

> "think about recharging, a bit like an electric car, you know, think about where you're going to recharge."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [26:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1585)

> "I think we need to know each other individually in order to collectively do a good job at work."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [27:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1652)

> "Support yourself first and look after yourself first, and then you can be more present for the other people in your life,"
> — Amy Martin, guest · [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1736)

> "you have to fill your own cup up first, and then when your cup is full, then you have enough to share with the others around you as well."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [29:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1749)

> "And at times I think my cup has been broken."
> — Amy Martin, guest · [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1758)


### Claims

> "professionally, I'm a coach and organization development practitioner, and I have spent two decades in leadership, mainly in the veterinary sector."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Guest background · [00:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=39)

> "I guess you could say I've been taking unconscious breaks from work in terms of burnout, and I've experienced that three times in my professional life. Once a period of chronic fatigue syndrome, and then a mental health breakdown, and finally a period of thyroiditis, which turned out to be stress-related."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Burnout and rest · [01:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=98)

> "And I think some of that is down to kind of being a woman and never feeling like I can rest as a, as a mom, as a woman, there's always things to do, and I, and I work as well. And I guess I wasn't listening to my body."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Burnout and rest · [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=134)

> "And, I guess looking around thinking, oh, who's going to tell me I can have a rest? But actually that had to come from me."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Permission to rest · [02:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=164)

> "what I've been doing through my research project is some autoethnography really into how, you know, how can I listen to my body better? How can I take periods of rest?"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Rest and renewal research · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=172)

> "I've been looking at my hormonal cycle, my menstrual cycle, as a way to map my energy and realizing that as I go through that hormonal cycle, I definitely have dips in my energy where I can't do as much as I would, as I would normally do."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Menstrual cycle awareness · [03:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=193)

> "if these cycles apply to me, then do they apply to other people? And how, you know, what about us socially? And if you're in a different cycle to me and in a different season than me, what is it that our interactions might be like, our relationships might be like?"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Seasonality and life cycles · [03:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=223)

> "using the metaphor of the seasons to talk about where I am in my cycle, because it's quite a taboo subject, so I don't want to kind of walk in and lead with that,"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Coaching with seasonal metaphors · [04:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=244)

> "one of my favorite books by Katherine May, which is called Wintering, where she talks about you go through seasons in your life, naturally up and down, and during your sort of winter cycles, you take a rest, you retreat like nature does,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books on rest · [04:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=284)

> "And animals don't fight the winter. They plan for it, and then they retreat, and then they emerge in spring as, you know, a new version of themselves."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Seasonality and life cycles · [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=376)

> "I think what I was doing before was I was, I was fighting my winters and trying to push through and, you know, and, and actually then you fall off a cliff instead because the winter's going to grab you somehow. So let's plan for it instead."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Burnout and rest · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=390)

> "I get to a point where I sort of go, okay, I know a lot about this now. I know how this works. I know how this is all going to play out for the next five years should I stay here. And then you go, but do I really want to do that?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Seasonality and life cycles · [07:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=428)

> "the menstrual cycle only applies to 50% of the population. Although I think everyone should know about it because if you don't, if you're not a uterus owner, you know someone who is."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Menstrual cycle awareness · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=489)

> "I spent a lot of time talking to people about things like, circadian rhythm. You know, are you a lark or an owl? When's your best time of day, time of life,"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Seasonality and life cycles · [08:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=513)

> "people in academia have an academic cycle, you know, a rest period, which, is often in summer, not in winter."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Seasonality and life cycles · [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=563)

> "In my case, I said I was going to take a year off to rest and to reflect, and yes, I did that for one month of the year."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Rest and renewal practices · [10:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=627)

> "what I, what I found naturally after about four or five months, your body clicks over into project mode. Okay, now what I want to do with this energy, you know, how do I want to spend it?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Rest and renewal practices · [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=659)

> "that period of wintering, it might be, it might be just rest and relaxation and sleep, but it might be a very active process of really reflecting, deeply reflecting on, on how you want to spend your time."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Rest and renewal practices · [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=671)

> "what I realized is that I didn't know how to rest either. So because I hadn't rested for so long, I'd just burnt out, which is not really proper rest."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Burnout and rest · [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=723)

> "I've also taken up Yoga Nidra, which is essentially, I've done yoga for years, but actually I'd never thought about just lying on my back before and, and doing yoga that way."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Rest and renewal practices · [12:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=746)

> "So instead of looking to them to give me permission to rest, I've said, at this moment, I really need to retreat and, and rest. And would it be okay if you did X, Y, and Z so that I can achieve that?"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Permission to rest · [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=767)

> "making sure that if I've got something that I need to do where the extra version is required, planning in the downtime afterwards instead of just charging into the next thing."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Energy at work · [13:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=837)

> "I did a yoga teacher training course earlier this year, and it was yin. It wasn't the normal vinyasa, heavy, you know, all of the breathing and all of that stuff."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Rest and renewal practices · [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=852)

> "it means that we can then have conversations, you know, just a, just a simple check-in. What season are you in today? Then you sort of get a sense of, of where people are."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Coaching with seasonal metaphors · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=995)

> "someone says winter, it's not necessarily negative or that they, you know, dislike winter. There's lots of people that love rest and retreat and, and the sort of wintering, to use the Katherine May terminology, and it can be nourishing and wonderful."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Coaching with seasonal metaphors · [16:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1018)

> "we all go through grief. Everybody goes through grief. And yet, it's not as if it's understood in the corporate environment that people will for long times be grieving."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Energy at work · [18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1086)

> "I've talked to people who are neurodiverse, I've talked to people who have chronic illness, I've talked to people who, you know, might be experiencing grief or, or difficulty, and it's just helped to really open up a conversation."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Coaching with seasonal metaphors · [18:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1135)

> "this sort of use of the metaphor. It makes it less threatening, I think. It makes it, you know, like not just sort of, how are you and tell me all about it."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Coaching with seasonal metaphors · [19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1151)

> "my days were jam-packed with meetings from sometimes six in the morning to six at night. And people would take a little fifteen minute sliver in my calendar and just put something in there."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Energy at work · [20:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1203)

> "What I'm suggesting is that I plan to do the more gentle work in that season rather than be, as I said before, extroverted and in all the meetings and back to back everything, you know, maybe I can do the deep work, the reflective work, the data analysis, that kind of thing on those days."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Energy at work · [21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1261)

> "I don't think we're going to change the corporate narrative, you know, the directives that come from above, but actually the day-to-day interactions between ourselves, we do have more jurisdiction over that and we, and we can choose our work more kindly"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Energy at work · [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1322)

> "You don't have to go as far as to say, it's my period, because actually, you know, there, there is a stigma attached to that as well, right?"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Menstrual cycle awareness · [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1392)

> "But if you're aware of it, you can organize your work in a different way and, and, you know, maybe excuse yourself from certain things and organize your calendar slightly differently."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Energy at work · [23:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1407)

> "Tricia Hershey's book, Rest is Resistance. I don't know if you've come across that one. but she, she talks about, you know, we, we have ownership over ourselves."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Books on rest · [24:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1477)

> "taking a sabbatical is a huge privilege, of course, but actually, we can all take periods of rest. And it doesn't have to be a sabbatical."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Burnout and rest · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1502)

> "I think it's really important that this conversation needs to start earlier, I think, that the menopause. you know, why should we wait till then when it gets really bad"
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Menstrual cycle awareness · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1527)

> "Quiet by Susan Cain was the third one that I came up with, which again, as an introvert made me feel seen that, you know, I'm not shy. I love relationships."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Books on rest · [25:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1557)

> "can we go out into our workplaces, into our homes, into our relationships and, and talk about the concept of, of seasonality and, and cycles and try and open up some conversations because I think we need to know each other individually in order to collectively do a good job at work."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Seasonality and life cycles · [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1641)

> "especially if you're like a, a team manager or a team leader, is to really notice if people have periods of more energy and less energy, and maybe then ask the question, you know, what's going on today?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leadership and self-care · [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1682)

> "what I noticed as a busy leader is that I didn't have time to notice my team and notice how others were, and therefore I wasn't as astute as I should have been at kind of supporting them, but it starts with you."
> — Amy Martin, guest · topic: Leadership and self-care · [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1722)

> "It's more like, it's a self-imposed busyness that you keep pushing yourself until there's this point where your body goes, no, I can't do this anymore."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Burnout and rest · [29:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1531189_high.mp3#t=1777)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

The Power of Rest: Embracing Cycles of Rest and Renewal. Episode 16 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this last episode of the sabbatical series, Petro du Pisani interviews Amy Martin about her research on rest, renewal, and life�s natural cycles. Amy shares how burnout led her to explore seasonality, and rhythms like menstrual, circadian, and academic cycles. She discusses integrating these insights into coaching and organisational development, emphasising the need to honour energy fluctuations. The conversation highlights how organisations can support different work rhythms, the importance of self-permission for rest, and key resources on rest and renewal. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #041 Special Focus on Burnout | Shannon Royden-Turner

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/041-special-focus-on-burnout/
- Date: 2025-02-17 (as at 2025-02-17)
- Guest: Shannon Royden-Turner
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Defining burnout, Warning signs of burnout, Root causes of burnout, Purpose and values alignment, Stress and adaptation, Returning to work, Guest's personal backstory
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1528239
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3

### About the guest: Shannon Royden-Turner

- burnout coach
- Burnout coach focused on building resilient leadership, mostly in the mining, energy, and development sector, working with CEOs and top executive teams; says she has been studying human behavior for 20 years.

In their own words:

> "work as a burnout coach and really focusing on building resilient leadership, so mostly in, the mining, energy, and development sector." [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=44)

> "So it's really working with CEOs and top executive teams, and it's about how do we deliver ambitious growth targets without getting burnout." [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=68)

> "And then Long journey through all kinds of, different, but basically working on mega projects and unlocking investment into, into mega projects." [28:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1728)

> "And through that, I started studying human behavior and then got into more leadership and executive coaching." [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1770)

> "And I've been studying human behavior for 20 years, and I know that that's not true." [30:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1810)

> "And then he started doing the, the more of the kind of rapid energy reset using the actuality methodology that I use." [31:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1879)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with burnout coach Shannon Royden-Turner, who works with CEOs and executive teams in mining, energy and development. Shannon describes burnout as a gradual progression that ends in crisis. She names three warning signs: scattered focus, depleted energy and withdrawn connection. She argues that burnout stems from an incomplete model of human behaviour and from misalignment with one's own values, not from workload alone. She explains her approach of realigning people with their purpose and getting them back to work quickly. She closes with her backstory: her father's death, her mother's burnout, and her husband's recovery from an autoimmune condition.

**Key ideas**

- Shannon argues that burnout is not just stress. It is a grading over time that moves from chronic stress to exhaustion, habitual burnout and finally a crisis of total shutdown. ([01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=134) [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=209))
- Shannon's three indicators of approaching burnout are scattered focus, depleted energy and withdrawn connection. ([03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=237) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295))
- Shannon contends that burnout is an overwhelm of uninspiring challenges, not of workload. It comes from living by other people's values instead of your own. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=565) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=649) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=668) [11:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=672))
- Shannon says aligning an individual's values, job tasks and company yields maximum performance, well-being and governance. ([12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=745) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059))
- Shannon defines stress as perceiving you are gaining what you don't want or losing what you want. Seeing positives and negatives in balance removes it. ([14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=861) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=908) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281))
- Shannon reframes burnout as a feedback loop signalling misalignment, not a weakness, and says realignment can take as little as two days. ([25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1545))
- Shannon traces burnout to an incomplete model of human behaviour that separated consciousness from science. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=335) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=416))

**Shannon's approach to burnout recovery and prevention** ([15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=941) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=958) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059) [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281))

1. Figure out the person's purpose, values and mission in life.
2. Determine whether their job is aligned with what they would love to do most.
3. If aligned, get them back to work as fast as possible as their pathway of healing.
4. Identify which root causes led to collapse, such as how tasks are delegated, and deal with them.
5. Keep the mind balanced by finding equal support for every challenge, and use feedback to stay on purpose.

**Lessons**

- Shannon suggests watching for scattered focus, depleted energy and withdrawal from others and yourself as early signs of burnout. ([04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295))
- Shannon advises finding the benefit in tasks you dislike, asking how they serve what most inspires you. ([13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=812))
- Shannon says delegating tasks in line with each person's unique mission can remove stress and lift organisational performance. ([16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059))
- Shannon recommends looking at where you spend money and what energises you as evidence of what you truly value. ([18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1106) [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138) [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1401))
- The host notes that every job will include some tasks you hate, even when it largely aligns with your values. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=764))

**Who it's for:** Executives, leaders and HR professionals in high-pressure sectors such as mining and energy. Also useful for anyone who suspects they are approaching burnout or is on leave from it and wants to return to work.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Shannon says that after directors aligned their job tasks with their missions, one organisation doubled its revenue in a year. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059))
- Shannon's father was killed in a car accident when she was ten. ([26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1601))
- Shannon says about eight hundred people lived on her family's farm. ([27:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1639))
- Shannon says she has been studying human behavior for 20 years. ([30:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1810))
- Shannon says her husband was back at work within one month and has had no symptoms a year and a half later. ([31:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1886))
- Shannon says only about 2% to 1% of people in a room report having financial independence. ([23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1401))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is the difference between stress and burnout?**
A: Shannon says burnout is not just stress but a grading over time. Chronic stress brings frustration and helplessness. Burnout brings emotional, physical and mental exhaustion and disengagement. A final crisis stage brings total shutdown. ([01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108) [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=134) [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=209))

**Q: What are the early warning signs of burnout?**
A: Shannon groups them into three: scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection from others and from yourself. ([03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=237) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281) [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295))

**Q: Is burnout caused by too much work?**
A: Shannon argues it isn't an overwhelm of workload but of challenges that don't inspire you. It comes from trying to live by other people's values instead of your own. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=565) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=649) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=668))

**Q: How can I deal with stress at its root?**
A: Shannon defines stress as perceiving you are gaining something unwanted or losing something wanted. She advises seeing positives and negatives, support and challenge, gain and loss in equal balance. ([14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=861) [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=908) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281))

**Q: Should someone who burned out take a long break before returning to work?**
A: Shannon says that if the job aligns with what the person loves, getting back to work is their pathway of healing. She says realignment can take as little as two days. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=958) [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1545))

**Q: How do I figure out what my purpose or values are?**
A: Shannon says your life demonstrates it. Look at where you spend money, what you always say yes to, and what leaves you energised versus exhausted. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1095) [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1106) [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138))

**Q: Is burnout a sign of weakness?**
A: Shannon says no. She calls it a feedback loop telling you that you're not aligned with your purpose. ([25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532))

**Q: Why did Shannon Royden-Turner become a burnout coach?**
A: Shannon cites her father's death when she was ten, watching her mother burn out and fall into depression, and her husband's autoimmune diagnosis and return to work. ([26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1575) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1601) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1649) [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1776) [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1782))


### Passage: The stages from stress to burnout crisis [01:48–03:42, 312 words]

Note (AI): Shannon lays out her progression from basic stress through chronic stress, burnout and habitual burnout to crisis, with the symptoms at each stage.

Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108):
> I mean, burnout is, you know, it's not just stress. It's, there's a kind of a, a grading that happens to somebody over time. You know, you can, we all live with the basic level of stress, which I have actually finally gotten rid of for myself. And then we get more chronic stress. It's more persistent and people start to have a, a greater sense of kind of frustration and helplessness. And then we get to burnout. And that's more where people actually just feel, you know, emotionally, physically, and mentally exhausted. And they start to kind of disengage from work and from life. So, so you can kind of be in a social situation, but you feel completely disconnected from everybody, even though, and isolated, even though you're with people, you know. And so that's more where you start to get quite severe fatigue, often feelings of inadequacy. You don't feel like you're actually performing in the way that you should, and you're constantly getting that feedback. And then you also start to get more physical symptoms, you know, a lot of tension, sleeping becomes more difficult. And then you move into the more chronic phases of that, and you get kind of habitual burnout, which is a much more chronic state of, burnout, where you just feel completely trapped in your situation, and, you know, things that you used to love doing, you just can't get yourself kind of in it anymore. And you start to numb down your feelings. And that's a critical piece where you just start to literally shut down, and then you start getting more health issues. And then finally you hit a crisis stage where it's just total shutdown, and that's more where you start to get severe anxiety, depression, and health complications. A lot of the autoimmune conditions come in at that point.


### Passage: Three warning signs: focus, energy, connection [03:57–05:02, 209 words]

Note (AI): A simple three-part checklist listeners can use to spot early burnout in themselves or their teams.

Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [03:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=237):
> Yeah, you know, to simplify it, I've put it into three key things that you need to look for, and it's you become very scattered in your focus. You know, you can, you can know there's moments in your life and in your work where you are super razor focused, and you're just like on a mission, and you're in it, and you can do it, and you, you know, and then there's times where it just becomes completely scattered. So, so looking for where your focus is completely scattered, you kind of don't really know where you're supposed to be looking or what you're supposed to be working on. It just feels like, and no matter what you touch, it just feels like you're wheel spinning. And then the second one is just depleted energy. Basically, you have no internal source of energy anymore. And then the final one is, you know, that you withdraw connection, and that's from other people, but also from yourself, like you lose your sense of self. Who am I? Like, what am I actually doing? You know, you start asking those kind of questions. So those are really the three kind of core categories. So scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection.


### Passage: Why living others' values scatters focus [09:25–11:07, 296 words]

Note (AI): Shannon argues that workload is not the real cause of burnout. She traces it to living by other people's values and outlines the implications for delegation.

Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=565):
> I mean, you've covered some of it, but I'll go a little bit more deeply into the, the kind of human behavior and the science of it, I guess. So often we think, you know, it's the workload, or it's the pressure on us, or it's our desire to be perfectionist, and there's an element of that, but that's not actually the thing that makes us burnout, right? One of the things, and why we scattered focus, and you said it perfectly, is we try to live up to other people, or what other people think we should be doing. And the truth is that every single individual has a unique purpose, mission, set of values, and priorities that they live their life by. And this happens regardless of whether they're conscious of it or not. So our unconscious decision-making will still drive towards our own personal purpose, whether we know it or not, because every single thing in our life, every decision we ever make is towards what's going to get us more benefits than drawbacks in what is most meaningful to us as an individual. So when we recognize that and understand it, we delegate differently, because then it's about trying to understand what each person's unique contribution is, and how do we match the challenges and the job tasks to that. So one of the causes of, we spoke about scattered focus, right? You're going to get a scattered focus when you're trying to live in other people's values rather than your own. That's the thing that's going to scatter you. So you're trying to please that one and please that one rather than being integral to what you are here to do, because that's the root of your highest level of performance.


### Passage: Getting burnt-out executives back to work [15:41–17:51, 378 words]

Note (AI): Explains her return-to-work approach and gives a client case in which realigning delegation was followed by the organisation doubling its revenue.

Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=941):
> So the reason that I focus on, I mean, is to, if you completely burnt out and you're on sabbatical, then a hundred percent it's, the first part of getting you back to work is really figuring out what your purpose is, what your values are, what your mission is in life. And if that job is actually aligned with what you would love to do most, then getting you back to work is your pathway of healing. Because as soon as we're doing what we love, we waken up the part of us that is wellness, right? That is performance. So the faster that somebody can be doing that, if you take that away from somebody, they will decay. Because when we, when we don't have purpose in our lives, we have disease, we have decay, we have, you know, we don't know what to do with ourselves. So the first step is really to determine, is this the pathway of your greatest mission in life? If it is, it's how do we get you back there as fast as possible and identify what of these root causes were playing out that had you collapse, and then deal with those. And often it's just, you know, like the one person who was completely, in chronic burnout and had a degenerative autoimmune condition. When we went in and looked, it was really just how tasks were being delegated from the, the director. And then there had been a whole lot of stresses that happened. His mother had dementia, he moved home, his wife's job, you know, got, lost. And so there were a whole lot of stresses that he was struggling to adapt to. So as soon as we could look at, you know, how do we delegate differently so that you can do what you love, because his, he loved his job, but he was just being pushed to do commercial business development when actually what he wanted to do and what he was really fricking amazing at was something completely different. And so as soon as we got all the directors to figure out what their individual mission was and align their job task with that, the whole organization literally doubled in revenue in a year.


### Passage: Father's death, the farm and mother's burnout [26:15–28:46, 487 words]

Note (AI): The formative story behind Shannon's focus on leadership under disruption and on burnout.

Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [26:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1575):
> Awesome. I've, I've had to dig through my entire life to try and figure out what, you know, all of the challenges are that happened to me and what's the reason, what was the purpose of all of those life events, because your life is the story of your purpose. Every trauma, every challenge that you've ever been through is something that is awakening in you a desire to make a difference. And so when I went back and looked at, you know, when I was ten, my father was killed in a car accident, and it was, because it was a car accident, it was obviously very sudden. And, it happened at Easter time. And at that beginning of the year, my older sister and my two younger brothers had all gone to boarding school. So we lived on a farm in Grayton, in the middle of nowhere. And literally one day we woke up and my mom and I, I was ten, my mom and I woke up and we were like on the farm on our own. And she's like, hello world, this is interesting. And it was a very complex operation because it was sugar, wattle, pine, gum, avos, oranges, nachis, and there were like eight hundred people living on the farm. And it was the two of us like, oh, hello. It had a huge impact on my mom and, and I watched her burn out. I watched her go into depression. And interestingly, I've done work with her over the last year, which has just been the most beautiful journey to help her make sense of her own life. And one of the things she said, cause she went into severe, depression and, and suicide. And it was so interesting because she said the reason that that happened was we got my uncle to come and live on the farm and we moved into town because everybody said it was too dangerous for us to be living there. And suddenly she had no purpose and she was like, well, what am I going to do? And that for her was like, I may as well not be living. So I guess that really woke in me two parts around how do we build leaders who are able to deal with that level of disruption. And be able to adapt to change without burning out, without going into depression, because the impact is huge. And I was bearing the impact. My little ten-year-old mind was like, the only way I'm out of here is if this woman keeps, basically keeps her shit together. Otherwise, I'm in trouble. And so, yeah, I guess that kind of awoke in me a, a massive drive to deal with leadership and to, you know, in high stakes environment, because the stakes were high, right? We had like 800 people that we had to feed every day.


### Passage: Husband's autoimmune diagnosis and return to work [29:36–31:38, 358 words]

Note (AI): The turning point that led Shannon to specialise in burnout. It includes her claims about recovery using her methodology.

Shannon Royden-Turner, guest [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1776):
> And then two years ago was another major shift in, in my journey where, my husband literally over the period of a week lost all the, all the feeling in his arms and legs and couldn't get up a flight of stairs. But I mean, the weekend before he was riding his mountain bike. So it was like, boom, what just happened? And that really took us kind of through a whole massive journey, but he was diagnosed with an autoimmune condition that's, degenerative and doesn't have a cure. And I've been studying human behavior for 20 years, and I know that that's not true. I know that there are limitations to the medical understanding because of what I was saying earlier, because we don't understand consciousness. So any medical condition that has that involved Is, they don't know what the cause of it is, so they don't even try and deal with the cause. They can deal with the symptoms. Oh, you have no feeling in your legs and arms. We can deal with that. And so the cure for it was literally a lifetime of going into hospital every, two weeks and getting a drip. And probably would, I mean, would never be able to work at his career capacity, again. So he's a director in an, in architecture practice that's on a rapid growth mission. So I started working with him and, you know, the first thing was to get him back to work because I know that he absolutely loves his work. And so getting him back to work, dealing with the delegation, so, you know, I've been working in his organization for the last year, just restructuring all of the, the kind of, higher level stuff. So within one month, he was back at work. And then he started doing the, the more of the kind of rapid energy reset using the actuality methodology that I use. And literally within one month, he was back at work, back on his mountain bike, completely cured a year and a half later still, has had no symptoms. And this was something that was completely incurable.


### Quotes

> "what we know now is that consciousness is fundamental to all reality, and everything that is material in our world emerges out of that consciousness. So everything we see is conscious. And that radically changes our model of human behavior."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=417)

> "It's an overwhelm of challenges that don't inspire you."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [11:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=672)

> "we don't need motivation. We don't need micromanagement. We're totally self-governed."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=731)

> "if you can find a job that aligns with your personal values and which excites you to get out of bed every morning, I mean, that's the golden ticket."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=772)

> "So I have to keep asking, how does it serve me? How does it benefit me to do those tasks that are not I don't wake up in the morning and go, oh my God, I can't wait to do that, you know, but I, I, I need to do it because otherwise I'm going to have a failed business and I'm not going to be able to deliver my purpose."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=812)

> "the whole organization literally doubled in revenue in a year."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1068)

> "Your life demonstrates what is most meaningful and purposeful."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1095)

> "It's not like, oh, cute, let's figure out your purpose. It's like, this is the most fundamental thing of being a human. And when we misalign, we burn out."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1168)

> "Basically, when we start to behave more like an animal than like an executive."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [22:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1347)

> "So burnout is not a weakness. It's a feedback loop to say you're not aligned."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "because your life is the story of your purpose."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · [26:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1588)


### Claims

> "I suspect that I might also have been approaching burnout before I took my conscious sabbatical, although I never really got there."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Defining burnout · [00:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=13)

> "work as a burnout coach and really focusing on building resilient leadership, so mostly in, the mining, energy, and development sector."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [00:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=44)

> "So it's really working with CEOs and top executive teams, and it's about how do we deliver ambitious growth targets without getting burnout."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=68)

> "I mean, burnout is, you know, it's not just stress. It's, there's a kind of a, a grading that happens to somebody over time."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [01:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=108)

> "And then we get to burnout. And that's more where people actually just feel, you know, emotionally, physically, and mentally exhausted. And they start to kind of disengage from work and from life."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=134)

> "And then finally you hit a crisis stage where it's just total shutdown, and that's more where you start to get severe anxiety, depression, and health complications. A lot of the autoimmune conditions come in at that point."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=209)

> "And then the final one is, you know, that you withdraw connection, and that's from other people, but also from yourself, like you lose your sense of self."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=281)

> "So those are really the three kind of core categories. So scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=295)

> "I think that we don't, we have a very incomplete model of human behavior. That has defined how we understand ourselves and how we build organizations. And because of that, we have burnout."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=335)

> "but actually what we know now is that consciousness is fundamental to all reality, and everything that is material in our world emerges out of that consciousness."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=416)

> "It doesn't require big restructurings or any of the kind of stuff that people do. It's like, it's really, really quick. It's really, really quick, you know, to, to wake someone up, to, to what's purposeful and meaningful to them, and then they don't burn out."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [07:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=463)

> "there's a huge amount of pressure on delivering increased production every year, even though the resource might be depleting, we still want more out of it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Root causes of burnout · [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=541)

> "You're going to get a scattered focus when you're trying to live in other people's values rather than your own. That's the thing that's going to scatter you."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=649)

> "And So it's not an overwhelm of workload. It's an overwhelm of challenges that don't inspire you."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=668)

> "that's about getting alignment between an individual's values, the job tasks that they're doing, and the company that they're working for. As soon as you have that alignment, you're going to get maximum performance, maximum well-being, and maximum governance from people."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=745)

> "You're always going to have little bits, maybe a big portion of it. Be aligning to your values, but there's always going to be stuff that you hate doing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=764)

> "So I have to keep asking, how does it serve me? How does it benefit me to do those tasks that are not I don't wake up in the morning and go, oh my God, I can't wait to do that,"
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=812)

> "So the definition of stress is you're going to get stressed when you perceive that you're gaining something that you don't want or you're losing something that you do want."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [14:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=861)

> "The ability to really cope with stress and, and adapt to change is the ability to see positives and negatives, support and challenge, gain and loss in equal balance, and then you get rid of stress."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [15:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=908)

> "And if that job is actually aligned with what you would love to do most, then getting you back to work is your pathway of healing."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=958)

> "And often it's just, you know, like the one person who was completely, in chronic burnout and had a degenerative autoimmune condition. When we went in and looked, it was really just how tasks were being delegated from the, the director."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1010)

> "And so as soon as we got all the directors to figure out what their individual mission was and align their job task with that, the whole organization literally doubled in revenue in a year."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1059)

> "It's like, where do you spend your money? That's always a good one, right? You can see what you always say yes to, you always have available money to, and there's other things that you just say no to,"
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [18:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1106)

> "These are all feedback mechanisms that are telling you where to focus, where you actually need to focus. And so slowly, as you learn to use those feedback mechanisms, you can start to direct your life more and more into doing what is most meaningful to you."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1138)

> "So literally being able to keep your mind balanced by seeing, if you're feeling highly challenged by somebody, you've got to find where the equal and opposite support is."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1281)

> "Bring your mind back into balance, you shift from being in your amygdala at the back here into your prefrontal cortex, which is your, it's called your executive center, right?"
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Stress and adaptation · [21:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1290)

> "So the truth is, you know, very few, you'll get like 2% to 1% to actually put up their hand and say, yeah, I have financial independence, right? So the truth is, they don't value financial wealth building."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Purpose and values alignment · [23:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1401)

> "So burnout is not a weakness. It's a feedback loop to say you're not aligned. And that alignment is really, really quick to get back."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "Like it can take two days, literally two days, you'll be back on your mission. And you can decide whether that job is something you want or don't want."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1545)

> "And so when I went back and looked at, you know, when I was ten, my father was killed in a car accident, and it was, because it was a car accident, it was obviously very sudden."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1601)

> "And it was a very complex operation because it was sugar, wattle, pine, gum, avos, oranges, nachis, and there were like eight hundred people living on the farm."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [27:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1639)

> "It had a huge impact on my mom and, and I watched her burn out. I watched her go into depression."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1649)

> "And suddenly she had no purpose and she was like, well, what am I going to do? And that for her was like, I may as well not be living."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [28:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1681)

> "And then Long journey through all kinds of, different, but basically working on mega projects and unlocking investment into, into mega projects."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [28:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1728)

> "And I realized that the reason we never get these projects off the ground is that people don't understand why they make decisions."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Root causes of burnout · [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1740)

> "And through that, I started studying human behavior and then got into more leadership and executive coaching."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1770)

> "my husband literally over the period of a week lost all the, all the feeling in his arms and legs and couldn't get up a flight of stairs."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [29:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1782)

> "And I've been studying human behavior for 20 years, and I know that that's not true."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Guest's personal backstory · [30:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1810)

> "And then he started doing the, the more of the kind of rapid energy reset using the actuality methodology that I use."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [31:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1879)

> "And literally within one month, he was back at work, back on his mountain bike, completely cured a year and a half later still, has had no symptoms."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [31:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1886)

> "and because of the, the stigma, people with this methodology, people don't even need to, no one even needs to know, because it can be solved so quickly that it's not, you have, don't have to deal with any of the stigma."
> — Shannon Royden-Turner, guest · topic: Returning to work · [32:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1528239_high.mp3#t=1945)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Burnout: A Warning Sign, Not a Weakness. Episode 15 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. This is a special focus episode on Burnout. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with burnout coach Shannon Royden-Turner about the causes, prevention, and recovery from burnout. Shannon explains that burnout isn’t just stress — it’s a gradual decline into exhaustion, often caused by disconnection from purpose. She shares her personal journey into burnout coaching and highlights three key indicators: scattered focus, depleted energy, and withdrawn connection. Shannon emphasises that burnout is not a weakness but a signal of misalignment with one’s values. This insightful conversation explores how to recognise burnout and realign with a more fulfilling path More about Petro du Pisani and On Change · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #040 Special Focus on Burnout | Laura-Jean Evens & Lurinda Maree

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/040-special-focus-on-burnout/
- Date: 2025-02-01 (as at 2025-02-01)
- Guest: Laura-Jean Evens, Lurinda Maree
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Defining burnout, Warning signs of burnout, Organisational culture and burnout, Personality and self-contribution, Recovery and professional help, Coping strategies, Boundaries and prevention, Books and resources
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1523463
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3

### About the guest: Laura-Jean Evens

- executive coach · Bryanston
- Industrial psychology background; worked 25 years in leadership development and organisational effectiveness before moving to coaching; has done change management; wellness ambassador for the Bryanston Country Club; has her own burnout story.

In their own words:

> "My background is industrial psychology, and I worked for 25 years in leadership development, organizational effectiveness, and then I moved across to coaching to come alongside businesses as opposed to being in the business itself, and also have done change management, and then I'm particularly passionate about wellbeing." [00:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=55)

> "I've, I've worked in financial services a lot, and it can get quite focused. And this was a motto in, one of the teams that I coached. Let's not just survive, let's thrive." [30:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1835)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### About the guest: Lurinda Maree

- industrial psychologist and applied theatre specialist · Randburg
- Industrial psychologist and applied theatre specialist who does individual and team consultations with a system psychodynamic approach; uses improv theatre with teams and works a lot with neurodiversity in adults.
- Links: https://lurindamaree.co.za/

In their own words:

> "Yes, I'm an industrial psychologist and applied theater specialist, and I do, individual and team consultations, with a system psychodynamic approach, and I'm based in Randburg," [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=88)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani, framing burnout as one reason people take conscious breaks from work, talks with two coaches. Executive coach Laura-Jean Evens brings statistics, Enneagram-based views on personality, her own burnout story and practical coping strategies such as nature, pottery, exercise and connection. Industrial psychologist Lurinda Maree brings a clinical lens. She sets out three warning signs, organisational red flags, the interplay between culture and personality, a client case, her informal phases of burnout, and book recommendations. Both stress boundaries, prevention and seeking professional help.

**Key ideas**

- Laura-Jean cites SADAC's figure that one in four people have burnout. She describes it as extreme exhaustion, loss of motivation and anxiety, with loneliness and menopause as overlooked contributors. ([01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=119) [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=152) [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=172))
- Lurinda looks for three signs: overwhelming exhaustion, detachment or cynicism about the job, and inefficacy. She probes them indirectly through body clues and the language people use about their work. ([03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=191) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=191) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=210) [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=240))
- Lurinda argues the onus is on employers. She flags fear of punishment, zero tolerance for mistakes and leadership without emotional integrity as cultural red flags. ([08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=534) [08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=534) [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=575) [10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=623))
- Lurinda holds that burnout is a dance between culture and personality: type A, traumatised or oppressed people can collude with command-and-control cultures. ([08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=534) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=645))
- Laura-Jean says burnout often starts with love of the work, where drive merges into overdrive. She calls for balancing contribution with restoration. ([06:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=379) [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=386) [07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=458))
- Laura-Jean recommends nature, creative outlets like pottery, exercise and connection. She frames these as balancing dopamine and endorphins with serotonin and oxytocin. ([24:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1461) [24:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1472) [24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1492) [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1666))
- Lurinda sees burnout as a massive trauma and doubts people can recover completely on their own without professional help or a steady, honest person. ([33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2039) [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2041) [39:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2368))

**Lurinda Maree's phases of burnout (her own, non-scientific observation)** ([17:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1037) [36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2211) [37:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2228) [38:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2308))

1. Pre-burnout: notice over-giving and poor boundaries; work on boundaries and re-evaluate goals and where you spend time.
2. In it: people usually don't know; deal with trauma signals and be very compassionate with yourself.
3. Aftermath: address the 'what now' stuckness and ambivalence through the journey back to the self.

**Lessons**

- Laura-Jean advises building intentional pauses into the day, not just relying on holidays, and blocking white space in the diary. ([07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=422) [34:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2099))
- Laura-Jean suggests that someone in burnout may need you to hold space and empathise rather than try to fix things. ([15:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=939))
- Lurinda recommends renegotiating boundaries as essential, and prescribes The Boundaries book by Townsend and Cloud. ([31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1912) [37:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2228))
- Lurinda suggests replacing self-criticism with Gabor Maté's 'impartial observer', who curiously asks why you did something. ([33:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2013))
- Laura-Jean's own story suggests that healthy systems such as sleep, nutrition and exercise speed up recovery once they are in place. ([21:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1268) [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1348) [22:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1378) [23:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1407))

**Who it's for:** Professionals who suspect they are overwhelmed or nearing burnout, coaches and HR or people practitioners working with burned-out clients, and leaders who want to understand how culture contributes to burnout.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Laura-Jean cites SADAC: one in four people have burnout. ([01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=119))
- Laura-Jean cites the SA Board for People Practices: sixty-six percent of South African employees experienced work-related stress and burnout. ([06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=365))
- Lurinda cites a study naming seven organisational risk factors for burnout, including command and control, rewards, fairness, values, workload and community. ([09:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=545))
- Laura-Jean worked 25 years in leadership development and organisational effectiveness before moving into coaching. ([00:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=55))
- Laura-Jean says her recovery took about two weeks mentally, followed by three months of slowing down. ([22:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1378))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How common is burnout in South Africa?**
A: Laura-Jean cites SADAC saying one in four people have burnout. She adds that the SA Board for People Practices reports sixty-six percent of South African employees have experienced stress and burnout from work pressures. ([01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=119) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=365))

**Q: What are the warning signs that I'm heading for burnout?**
A: Lurinda looks for overwhelming exhaustion (headaches, insomnia), detachment or cynicism about the job, and inefficacy: self-doubt and massive indecisiveness. A lack of self-compassion is another clue. ([03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=191) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=191) [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=210) [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=265))

**Q: Can company culture cause burnout?**
A: Lurinda says the onus is on the employer. She lists risk factors such as command and control, rewards, fairness, values, workload and community, and flags fear of punishment, zero tolerance for mistakes and a lack of leadership integrity. ([08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=534) [09:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=545) [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=575) [10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=623))

**Q: How do people contribute to their own burnout?**
A: Laura-Jean says intense love of the work turns into overdrive and frenzy. Lurinda says certain personalities collude with demanding cultures. The host lists traps like people pleasing and admits she never said no. ([05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=319) [06:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=379) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=645) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=728))

**Q: What coping strategies help with burnout?**
A: Laura-Jean suggests time outdoors, gardening, creative outlets like pottery, exercise, and connection and belonging. Lurinda adds play and improv, and finding pockets of joy every day. ([17:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1073) [24:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1461) [24:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1472) [24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1492) [29:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1759))

**Q: How long does it take to recover from burnout?**
A: Laura-Jean says some clients took two to four years. She needed about two weeks to get her mind right, then three months to slow down, helped by healthy systems already in place. ([22:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1378))

**Q: Should I get professional help for burnout?**
A: Laura-Jean says at some point therapy, not coaching, is necessary. Lurinda doubts people can recover completely alone and advises professional help or a steady, honest person. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=898) [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1005) [39:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2368))

**Q: What books help with burnout?**
A: Lurinda recommends The Boundaries book by Townsend and Cloud, plus Gabor Maté and Bessel van der Kolk's trauma books. Laura-Jean points to Juliet Funt's work on white space. ([31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1912) [33:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2013) [34:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2099))


### Passage: Three warning signs Lurinda looks for [03:11–05:17, 402 words]

Note (AI): Sets out exhaustion, cynicism and inefficacy, and how Lurinda probes each one indirectly through body clues, wording and self-talk.

Lurinda Maree, guest [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=191):
> I think in my practice, it's three things I look at. First of all, that overwhelming exhaustion that, Laura was referring to now, as well as like a detachment or a cynicism around, around your job. And then inefficacy is the third one. So inefficacy, when I, when I sit with someone in front of me, I don't really ask the direct questions, because in my opinion, they never give me truthful answers, so I ask around something to get with. And if I want to check with, with the person if they have that extreme exhaustion, I usually go into body clues. So I'll ask them about any patterns in any physical things like, headaches and insomnia, and so that'll be a clue to me. And then when, with regard to detachment and cynicism, just the wording they use when they speak about their jobs is a negative overall, do they have a positive regard for what they're doing and for the people they're working with or not, and do they still have the ability to make generous assumptions about things and people? Because I think when they lose that, that's a big clue as well. And then in terms of self-doubt, where you get to the inefficacy of not having a belief in your own abilities. this one for me, like Laura also mentioned, it's very complex because it, it coincides with other things, but especially the inefficacy, the self-doubt, and doubting your own decisions, so massive indecisiveness, that kind of stuff. Is very similar to organizational bullying and emotional abuse. So there you have to almost ask for me, I always look for whether it's connected to a personal situation or whether it's in general. So if there's a general, if it's in general, then we know that is more burnout than it is something else. So those are the three things I look for, and then also if the person is very self-critical, when the, when they have that feelings of inefficacy, how do they deal with themselves in terms of self-talk, and do they have self-compassion or not? And if they have no self-compassion, that is also something that I look for. Yeah, so those are the things I look for when I, when I try to determine if someone is on the edge of burnout, because I think a lot of the time people don't know.


### Passage: How organisational culture feeds burnout [08:54–11:42, 555 words]

Note (AI): Names seven organisational risk factors and three red flags: punishment, zero tolerance for mistakes and leadership integrity. It also explains how personality 'colludes' with culture.

Lurinda Maree, guest [08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=534):
> I think, definitely that culture is the onus is on the employer. To create a culture and environment where people will have the lowest risk of getting into burnout. And in one of the studies I read, there is, there's seven organizational risk factors, and if you read them for, for burnout, and that is command and control environments, rewards, fairness, values, workload, and community. And if you think about it, all of those are part of culture and how things are experienced at work. So obviously it is intertwined with it, but I, I think for me again, there are questions I ask when, or when I work with teams in organizations and I work within a system, I look for three, three flag things. The first is, how do they reward and punish? And how do people feel about punishment in specific? So are they scared of punishment? Is there fear around punishment? Because that drives something in the system to say that I need to not make mistakes. And that's my second one, zero tolerance for mistakes. In terms of the experience, not in terms of what they say. Because sometimes people say, no, we have an open door policy. here we learn from our mistakes as long as we learn from our mistakes. But actually on the ground, people are so scared that they're going to make a mistake that they are, they have so much anxiety to make mistakes that they start doing more and more and more to make sure that they can't make a mistake. You know the idea of meetings for meetings for meetings, so that we're prepared in the meeting and on the same page. Those are all signs that people are scared to make mistakes. And then the third one is how does the leadership react and do, do they have emotional integrity? Do they say what they mean, mean what they say, and does it filter through into the day-to-day operations? Can you see it on the ground? So those things to me is very important, but the reason I say it's loaded Is because for me, everything is in the dynamics. And to your point earlier, there are people, it's a dance between what is given to you and how you react to it, or how you collude with some things. So people with a type A personality, people who are traumatized, people who have been oppressed, and they live in that, like, inner world of oppression, it gives you a certain worldview and certain thoughts and certain approaches, and that makes you collude with certain things in how the culture is set up. So, do you think that, the type of culture that's high command control, very zero tolerance on mistakes, is like, it's like a breeding ground for type A personalities, because what you mentioned earlier is they want to go and do everything. They don't want to say no, and then the culture provides the rewards for that. So, do you think it's that dance, and it's in understanding how that dance work and what companies can adjust, which I call lever activities. What lever can you pull that can change a lot of things for the organization? And that is all for me, like you said, in the culture.


### Passage: A client's journey back to the self [16:40–19:03, 429 words]

Note (AI): A client case running from an unrecognised burnout, through referral and 'pockets of joy', to a job change.

Lurinda Maree, guest [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1000):
> Yes, I have, I have had a client who I've got, I've got two. The one that we figured out she is in burnout, and she didn't know, and it was quite a big realization for her, but then I referred her to a psychologist, a, a clinical psychologist, and, she just sent me a message later to say she's in therapy, and it's been, her biggest takeaway from that was that she wasn't aware how bad it was, and I think that is a common story. And then, I usually get people when they're either in the burnout or after the burnout, and for me, the biggest thing we do in therapy then is we work, I call it the journey back to the self. Because there's, there's so much disconnect in this that you, you can't locate yourself. And I feel like when we can start locating ourselves, we can start reevaluating how we relate to things, and then that becomes the journey. And the moment we know where we are and what we like and what we want out of life, then we can relocate, re, connect to others and to ideas and to jobs and to roles and to all those things. So that's the work we do together. but I think the biggest thing that, that I enjoy doing with people is just finding, finding pockets of joy in every day. because that's the other thing, you're so focused on all the negative stuff and what it does to you, and, that you kind of forget that there's still things we enjoy and that we love, and it's like looking forward to those things. And then at the end, it was really, at the end, it meant for that person transitioning to a different job and a different job role. And sometimes that's not what you think. I think the biggest lesson for me is that every individual case is completely different. And once you do start with the self and move from there outwards, that's when they start to realize, okay, but this environment isn't good for me. And I'm colluding with things in these kinds of systems. So let's start looking to put you up, like set, setting people up for success. that is then what, what happened. She had to transition to a different job and she really just phoned me afterwards and said she never knew that work can be such a pleasure.

Petro du Pisani, host [18:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1138):
> Yeah.

Lurinda Maree, guest [18:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1139):
> So it's as if when you're stuck in it, you don't know there's a way out.


### Passage: Laura-Jean's own burnout and recovery [21:08–23:45, 423 words]

Note (AI): A first-hand account of how letting sleep, nutrition and exercise slip during a restructuring led to hitting the wall, and why healthy systems sped up recovery.

Laura-Jean Evens, guest [21:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1268):
> those are so many stories and I went through my own story, so I just thought I'd tell that story. so yeah, Was loving what I was doing. I was actually in a change management role and, just thriving on the engagement, and what was really, happening is that it was stimulating and fun, but, I mean, it wasn't like fun enjoyment like I get when I go on an adventurous holiday, but, but it was, It, it was great. It felt good. What I wasn't paying attention to was my sleep. So I was working hard, putting a lot of effort in, and, not sleeping well. I wasn't paying attention to my nutrition, and what was going in. we, we were just working in a room and like it was go, go, go to get to a deadline. And it was for a very serious situation. This person who was the CEO had to tell not only his employees, but the market on a listed, it is a listed company, you know, what, what, the restructure would look like. And that can Caused a lot of angst for, for people and for employees. So there was a lot of strategizing and, yeah, I just didn't pay attention to myself in the process. My sleep, my nutrition, I let my exercise slip. I usually run about four times a week in nature and it's like, it's like an embedded strategy for me. It just, it, it works. It helps everything. It helps slow down. And, all of the, the, like the disciplines that are healthy in my life, I guess I let slip. And that is when I went and I hit the wall, and I just had to disengage. I know having worked with people, it can take years for people to recover from burnout, in some cases four years, two years, clients that I've worked with. For me, thankfully, it took Like two weeks for me to get my, my mind in the right space again, but then I took three months to slow down and just pay attention to these, the strategies, the rhythms, the rule of life that, that is in place. So I could, Brené Brown says, we don't always rise to the heights of our aspirations, we fall to the level of our systems. So what are those healthy strategies and systems in our lives? Thankfully, mine were in place, and I think that was part of my journey to recovery and why it was so fast.


### Passage: Nature, creativity and connection as coping strategies [24:21–27:00, 382 words]

Note (AI): Gives concrete strategies: gardening leave, pottery as 'clay therapy', switching focus outdoors, and belonging to a weekly community.

Laura-Jean Evens, guest [24:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1461):
> Yeah, and I think that's also from my story, but some of the, the things that are, are realized, and after hearing other people's stories, is that doctors do prescribe the outdoors and nature. In fact, a friend of mine who also work, walked through burnout, she, the doctor said to her, she was having severe panic attacks, and the doctor said, go and do gardening. And literally she took time out, a gardening leave. Gardening and creative outlets is something that they've, there's research to prove that you just get onto another, into another zone. It bypasses all, all the like problem solving and we get into much more of the limbic brain, not the neocortex. And yeah, you just become engrossed in something that you're doing and it, it really helps. So creative outlets, I chose pottery. my friend is, her husband is an incredible artist, so art and pottery, something creative, really helps. It does initiate your problem solving and your innovative approach to things. Certainly with pottery, there are lots of life lessons and you have to, you're going one direction and then shucks, it's not working out how you, you pictured and then you have to change. But it's a, it's always like being in the bush, you know, it's, you're focused on finding animals, but it's, it's not, like draining or stressful, but you, you've got a different focus. You switch focus. So being outdoors, doing something creative, and then connection is like so key. And that is I think, well, in pottery, oh, it's like I call it clay therapy, because you can, you can disconnect and withdraw from people and just do what you're doing, designing that piece, that masterpiece that you're working on. Or you can just, come away from that and engage in conversation with the people around the room. So there's both the connection, and then there's something to be said for, you know, if you're working on a piece, an artwork piece or a ceramic piece, that you come back again and you pick up from the stories that you left off telling in the last week. So there's this, weekly connection, so I think some sort of connection and belonging in a space that you really enjoy, is great.


### Passage: Lurinda's phases of burnout [36:51–39:14, 485 words]

Note (AI): Describes pre-burnout, being in it and the aftermath, with what to notice and do in each phase, so listeners can locate themselves.

Lurinda Maree, guest [36:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2211):
> I was thinking about, I call it the phases of burnout, but that's not scientific. That's just my, my observations in dealing with people, because I meet people along the way. And then for me, it's important if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, so many things resonate. I like to understand, am I pre-burnout? Like I can, I can feel I'm giving into too much, I'm not having good boundaries, that kind of stuff. And there for me, the essential thing is to get to the boundary stuff and reevaluate your goals. So that's kind of the work I'll do there if I see people are there and just start to create perspective on what is important and where you want to spend your time. I loved you saying forty thousand weekends or weeks. Four thousand weeks. Four thousand weeks. That's what you get. That is insane. But I think it creates perspective because you don't realize you wipe out your eyes and then it's two, twenty years later and you're like, what did I do with my life? So you don't want, you want to prevent that. And then I usually get people in the middle, like while they're doing, it, it started, they usually don't know they're in it. And then for that, it's also like there you start to deal with a lot of trauma, trauma signals. So to look out for that and then just it's very disillusioning to know. it's a bittersweet, like any other diagnosis. I work a lot with neurodiversity in adults, and like that diagnosis, it, it's relief because finally you have a reason for why you're doing stuff, but it is just so harsh because now I have this, I have this label, I have this thing, and I have to deal with it. So there's a lot of trauma involved in just being very compassionate with yourself in that phase specifically. And then the aftermath, Is where, okay, now all of this has happened, I've done all of these things, but what now? The what now part. And I think there's many ways to get out of that stuckness, because I feel between the two, there's this little, this little, I don't know what to call it, like a hole that you fall into, and you're stuck, and you feel ambivalent about everything, you feel like you don't care about anything, and I think that is important to get to, that's the journey back to the South where I usually work with people. But it's good to know that there's different phases and to kind of try and figure out where you are along this path, because for each part that you're in, there's different, different things to notice and different things to do. And I think that's important, just as you're listening and you're thinking, oh, maybe I am in it.


### Quotes

> "The loneliness pandemic says that we're in a, a society with social media and so much connectivity, and yet we find ourselves quite isolated and alone. And then the last point that I think is linked to burnout, which is often overlooked, is as women, the menopause, there's similar symptoms, anxiety, insomnia, and yeah, plays a role."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [02:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=159)

> "it looks quite positive with what you're doing, but then drive merges into overdrive."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=386)

> "Greg Anderson, his quote is, the pathway to wellness is about integrating the body, mind, and spirit, because it's about, in his quote, he says, it's about a realization that all we do and think and feel and believe affects our, our wellbeing."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [14:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=860)

> "to stop, you actually have to stop. You can't do anything else, having walked this journey myself."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=925)

> "the Jewish have a, a saying called shiva. Just sit there with you, just empathize, be with you, and hold the space, as opposed to feeling like we have to fix it, or as opposed to not knowing what to do with it and abandoning the, the situation or the person."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [15:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=944)

> "our job is to build the house, the scaffolding for the house, and then that person's job is to, to rebuild it one brick at a time"
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=979)

> "she really just phoned me afterwards and said she never knew that work can be such a pleasure."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · [18:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1131)

> "So it's as if when you're stuck in it, you don't know there's a way out."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · [18:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1139)

> "how are you complicit in a situation that you say you don't want?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [19:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1155)

> "Brené Brown says, we don't always rise to the heights of our aspirations, we fall to the level of our systems."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [23:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1407)

> "I must try to do improv for burnout, actually, because I think it does all this stuff. It's, it's the complete opposite of all that organizational factors and because it promotes curiosity, it promotes no mistakes, it promotes play and just having fun and just creating."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · [29:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1771)

> "it's almost like letting go of the addiction to work."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2003)

> "I do think burnout is a massive trauma."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2041)

> "So I think prevention is better than cure."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2107)

> "And the other thing is it's not a death sentence."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2355)


### Claims

> "My background is industrial psychology, and I worked for 25 years in leadership development, organizational effectiveness, and then I moved across to coaching to come alongside businesses as opposed to being in the business itself, and also have done change management, and then I'm particularly passionate about wellbeing."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Guest background · [00:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=55)

> "Yes, I'm an industrial psychologist and applied theater specialist, and I do, individual and team consultations, with a system psychodynamic approach, and I'm based in Randburg,"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=88)

> "So burnout is not a rare condition, but in fact, SADAC, the South African Depression and Anxiety Group, say that one in four people have burnout. So what it is, is extreme exhaustion, loss of motivation, anxiety,"
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=119)

> "And I think there's also a lot to be said for the disconnection or loneliness that contributes to burnout. The loneliness pandemic says that we're in a, a society with social media and so much connectivity, and yet we find ourselves quite isolated and alone."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=152)

> "And then the last point that I think is linked to burnout, which is often overlooked, is as women, the menopause, there's similar symptoms, anxiety, insomnia, and yeah, plays a role."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=172)

> "I think in my practice, it's three things I look at. First of all, that overwhelming exhaustion that, Laura was referring to now, as well as like a detachment or a cynicism around, around your job. And then inefficacy is the third one."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=191)

> "I don't really ask the direct questions, because in my opinion, they never give me truthful answers, so I ask around something to get with. And if I want to check with, with the person if they have that extreme exhaustion, I usually go into body clues."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [03:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=210)

> "do they have a positive regard for what they're doing and for the people they're working with or not, and do they still have the ability to make generous assumptions about things and people? Because I think when they lose that, that's a big clue as well."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [04:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=240)

> "but especially the inefficacy, the self-doubt, and doubting your own decisions, so massive indecisiveness, that kind of stuff. Is very similar to organizational bullying and emotional abuse."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Warning signs of burnout · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=265)

> "I can remember feeling very, very overwhelmed in my job at certain points in time, but then at the other side, I would also never say no to anything."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=319)

> "The SA board for people practices say that sixty-six percent of South African employees have actually experienced some sort of stress and burnout due to work-related pressures."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Defining burnout · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=365)

> "And I think it starts with, like a real intense love of what you're doing, and then, and a drive, and it looks quite positive with what you're doing, but then drive merges into overdrive."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [06:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=379)

> "it's about being intentional about taking a strategic pause within your day. it doesn't always have to be a holiday, although prioritizing holidays is, is like really important."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Boundaries and prevention · [07:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=422)

> "I coach someone who, who would just go work over December and just found that eventually, yeah, just he lost the motivation."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [07:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=436)

> "And I think the, the main thing is to balance our contribution, which we often very excited about, with restoration and have, have this really good ebb and flow so that we stay on top."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Boundaries and prevention · [07:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=458)

> "I think what actually drove my decision to take a sabbatical was more around the discussion of time. How do I want to spend my time?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Boundaries and prevention · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=490)

> "I think, definitely that culture is the onus is on the employer. To create a culture and environment where people will have the lowest risk of getting into burnout."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Organisational culture and burnout · [08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=534)

> "And in one of the studies I read, there is, there's seven organizational risk factors, and if you read them for, for burnout, and that is command and control environments, rewards, fairness, values, workload, and community."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Organisational culture and burnout · [09:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=545)

> "The first is, how do they reward and punish? And how do people feel about punishment in specific? So are they scared of punishment? Is there fear around punishment? Because that drives something in the system to say that I need to not make mistakes. And that's my second one, zero tolerance for mistakes."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Organisational culture and burnout · [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=575)

> "But actually on the ground, people are so scared that they're going to make a mistake that they are, they have so much anxiety to make mistakes that they start doing more and more and more to make sure that they can't make a mistake."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Organisational culture and burnout · [10:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=603)

> "And then the third one is how does the leadership react and do, do they have emotional integrity? Do they say what they mean, mean what they say, and does it filter through into the day-to-day operations?"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Organisational culture and burnout · [10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=623)

> "it's a dance between what is given to you and how you react to it, or how you collude with some things. So people with a type A personality, people who are traumatized, people who have been oppressed,"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=645)

> "So these are, there are seven traps that cause burnouts, okay? And the first one is people pleasing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=728)

> "cause I work with the Enneagram and, yeah, definitely there's certain personalities, enthusiastic visionary, seven, eight, the strategic direction, three, the competitive achiever, and you can hear the pace of all of those three, it's fast and it's driven, in an unhealthy space."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [13:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=804)

> "There is a point at which, it's not like coaching and positive psychology, it's, therapy that's very necessary. I did work with someone who, worked, went first through therapy and then got to the point that they could surface and, and actually begin to connect to hope."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=898)

> "In a state of burnout, that person really just needs us to, the Jewish have a, a saying called shiva. Just sit there with you, just empathize, be with you, and hold the space, as opposed to feeling like we have to fix it,"
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [15:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=939)

> "The one that we figured out she is in burnout, and she didn't know, and it was quite a big realization for her, but then I referred her to a psychologist, a, a clinical psychologist,"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1005)

> "for me, the biggest thing we do in therapy then is we work, I call it the journey back to the self. Because there's, there's so much disconnect in this that you, you can't locate yourself."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [17:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1037)

> "but I think the biggest thing that, that I enjoy doing with people is just finding, finding pockets of joy in every day."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [17:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1073)

> "She had to transition to a different job and she really just phoned me afterwards and said she never knew that work can be such a pleasure."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1129)

> "But one of his favorite questions in life is, how are you complicit in a situation that you say you don't want? Which is a quite interesting question."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personality and self-contribution · [19:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1153)

> "lots of the, in, in different cultures, work cultures, I think quite Driven, scorecard driven like banks and that, you know, there, there are a lot of, people who experience this drive and, and don't prioritize tapping out."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Organisational culture and burnout · [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1217)

> "What I wasn't paying attention to was my sleep. So I was working hard, putting a lot of effort in, and, not sleeping well. I wasn't paying attention to my nutrition, and what was going in."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [21:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1304)

> "My sleep, my nutrition, I let my exercise slip. I usually run about four times a week in nature and it's like, it's like an embedded strategy for me."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1348)

> "I know having worked with people, it can take years for people to recover from burnout, in some cases four years, two years, clients that I've worked with. For me, thankfully, it took Like two weeks for me to get my, my mind in the right space again, but then I took three months to slow down"
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [22:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1378)

> "doctors do prescribe the outdoors and nature. In fact, a friend of mine who also work, walked through burnout, she, the doctor said to her, she was having severe panic attacks, and the doctor said, go and do gardening."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Coping strategies · [24:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1472)

> "Gardening and creative outlets is something that they've, there's research to prove that you just get onto another, into another zone. It bypasses all, all the like problem solving and we get into much more of the limbic brain, not the neocortex."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Coping strategies · [24:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1492)

> "we need to find options that give us the dopamine and the happy endorphins. And then we also need to balance that with the, serotonin, so the slowing down, so stopping, resting, being quiet."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Coping strategies · [27:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1666)

> "And I think the, the improv, rules, improv rules, sets you free of everything that, that leads to burnout, actually, if you think about it,"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Coping strategies · [29:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1759)

> "I've, I've worked in financial services a lot, and it can get quite focused. And this was a motto in, one of the teams that I coached. Let's not just survive, let's thrive."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Guest background · [30:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1835)

> "The Boundaries book by Townsend and Cloud. It's quite a popular book in, you know, but that's something I prescribe a lot because I think boundaries is something you're going to have to do either way,"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Books and resources · [31:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=1912)

> "So he says the moment that you realize you've done something that you didn't want to do, instead of becoming self-critical, to say, where's my impartial observer? And that's the voice in your head that says, that's interesting that you did that."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Books and resources · [33:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2013)

> "And although that's more trauma-related, I do think burnout is a massive trauma. So the two, those two fields for me coincide completely."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2039)

> "She talks about white space. like literally being intentional about, blocking out some time in your diary. So I think prevention is better than cure."
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Boundaries and prevention · [34:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2099)

> "I like to understand, am I pre-burnout? Like I can, I can feel I'm giving into too much, I'm not having good boundaries, that kind of stuff. And there for me, the essential thing is to get to the boundary stuff and reevaluate your goals."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Boundaries and prevention · [37:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2228)

> "And then the aftermath, Is where, okay, now all of this has happened, I've done all of these things, but what now? The what now part."
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [38:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2308)

> "I highly doubt that people can do it completely on their own. I do think you need some form of either professional help or a really, really steady person in your life or network in your life who can be brutally honest with you"
> — Lurinda Maree, guest · topic: Recovery and professional help · [39:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2368)

> "What's the replacement picture for the next time you're faced with similar patterns, and how do you interrupt those patterns in a preventative way?"
> — Laura-Jean Evens, guest · topic: Boundaries and prevention · [40:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1523463_high.mp3#t=2455)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Burnout: Recognise, Recover and Rebalance. Episode 14 of s series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. This is a special focus episode on Burnout. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to fellow-coaches Laura-Jean Evens and Lurinda Maree. Laura-Jean, an executive coach with an industrial psychology background, and Lurinda, an industrial psychologist and applied theatre specialist, share their expertise on burnout. According to SADAC statistics mentioned by Laura-Jean, one in four people experience burnout. The conversation covers the definition of burnout, warning signs, contributing factors, and coping strategies. The experts discuss how both individual personality traits and organisational culture can contribute to burnout. They emphasize the importance of setting boundaries, maintaining work-life balance, and seeking professional help when needed. The discussion also includes practical coping strategies such as creative activities, exercise, and connection with others. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #039 The Sabbatical Mindset | Omri van Zyl

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/039-the-sabbatical-mindset/
- Date: 2025-01-30 (as at 2025-01-30)
- Guest: Omri van Zyl
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Career breaks and adventure, Leaving corporate life, Ambition versus freedom, Meditation and visualization, Energy and mentorship, Healthy habits and continuous improvement
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1522695
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3

### About the guest: Omri van Zyl

- CEO · RussellStone Capital
- Grew up in the agriculture sector; worked at Deloitte, then became CEO of Agri SA after walking the Camino; earlier a professional safari guide in Botswana; did two degrees, an LL.B. and an MBA, while working full-time.

In their own words:

> "I'm the CEO of RussellStone Capital. The RussellStone Group is quite a big player in the agriculture sector. My job is to, to look for expansion plans, corporate finance." [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=47)

> "When I did the Camino, I, I, just after that, I changed my career completely. So I went from a corporate, I worked at Deloitte, so I went from there to Agri SA," [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177)

> "And I, I actually got three job offers at the same time. And, and one of them was with Agri SA, and I decided to do that. So I became the CEO of Agri SA after Deloitte," [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355)

> "So I became a safari guide in Botswana. but not like a jeep jockey. I actually did a, I worked for Caribou Safaris. The first three months they put me under a Land Rover's, bonnet, and I worked in a mechanics workshop." [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=660)

> "So I got my professional guides license. I, started guiding. So that taught me a lot about nature, right? So I know the birds, I know the animals." [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=697)

> "So I did my two degrees while I worked full-time, and I always visualized how I would, how I would perform, writing a test, studying, and the more I visualized it, the more it actually happened. I'm a Golden Key scholar." [23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani, herself on a sabbatical after 25 years in corporate, talks to Omri van Zyl, CEO of RussellStone Capital. He describes a life of regular adventurous breaks, among them the Camino, India, a Nile road trip and two years as a Botswana safari guide. He links the Camino to his move from Deloitte to Agri SA. He argues for balancing ambition with an adventurous spirit, and for working from freedom rather than chasing money for freedom. He also covers the daily practices he credits: meditation, visualization with a vision board, exercise and mentorship.

**Key ideas**

- Omri says regular breaks kept him sane and reflective and let him reset, because being entwined in work expectations stops you seeing the wood from the trees. ([02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=152) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=207) [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=217))
- Omri argues that one must balance ambition with an innate adventurous spirit, otherwise the money-earning part eats you up. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=793) [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=814))
- Citing his boss Russell, Omri suggests that working from freedom, including saying no, can bring more power and money than chasing money to buy freedom. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=958) [32:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1967) [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977) [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977))
- Omri credits visualization and a daily vision board with outcomes in study and life, saying it reprograms the brain. ([23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405) [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526) [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1549))
- Omri says small daily habits, such as ten minutes of meditation and a twenty-minute walk, make a big difference, but only with discipline. ([21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316) [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1325))
- Omri advises working out what gives you energy and doing more of it, and taking a break and talking to a mentor when your work does not. ([33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2029) [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2106) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2121))
- The host observes that what people want more of on breaks, such as reading, walking and nature, costs little or no money. ([28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1737))

**Omri's visualization practice** ([23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526) [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1532) [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1549))

1. Ask what you would do if you could do anything and had enough money; at first you just fake belief.
2. Put that goal on a vision board and look at it every day.
3. Imagine and explore it before sleep and during meditation, looking at its different angles.
4. Over time this reprograms your brain and you attract different things.

**Lessons**

- Omri suggests treating breaks as ongoing rather than a once-a-year escape from work you hate. ([27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1702))
- Omri says he always budgeted for travel, which built the discipline to afford what he loves. ([18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1095))
- Omri says staying where you are not playing to your strengths can drain you, as heavy risk and compliance work did for him. ([06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=400) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=415) [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=427))
- Omri argues that mental health deserves the same attention as physical ailments: get help, test alternatives, try something different. ([36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2162) [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2177))
- Omri recommends applying kaizen to your own life: start imperfect and improve slowly. ([29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1776))

**Who it's for:** Corporate professionals thinking about a sabbatical or career change, people torn between ambition and a need for adventure, and anyone interested in meditation, visualization and habit-building as tools for reset and reinvention.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Omri walked 470 kilometres on the Camino in Spain, 32 km on the first day. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=228))
- After the Camino he received three job offers at once and became CEO of Agri SA. ([05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355))
- Omri says RussellStone started twenty years ago with nothing and is now a sixteen billion rand business. ([34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2053))
- Omri worked as a professional safari guide in Botswana for Caribou Safaris. ([11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=660) [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=697))
- Omri did two degrees while working full-time and is a Golden Key scholar. ([23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405))
- On a student trip, Omri's group drove from Stellenbosch to the source of the Nile in Uganda; the oldest member was 23. ([19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1151))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Can taking a sabbatical help you change careers?**
A: Omri says that after walking the Camino he changed careers completely, from Deloitte to Agri SA. He received three job offers at the same time and became CEO of Agri SA. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177) [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177) [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355))

**Q: Why do people burn out in corporate jobs?**
A: Omri says he spent half his time managing risks that impeded business. He was not playing to his strengths as an entrepreneur and pioneer, and he felt he was dying. ([06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=388) [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=400) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=415))

**Q: What is it like to walk the Camino with no training?**
A: Omri walked 470 km without preparation and could not move after the first 32 km day. By the end he could walk 30 to 40 km a day. He describes it as walking meditation. ([03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=228) [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=278))

**Q: How do I balance making money with wanting adventure?**
A: Omri argues you must find a balance between ambition and your adventurous spirit, or the money-earning part eats you up. He also says freedom can itself lead to more money. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=793) [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=814) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=958))

**Q: How can I make breaks part of everyday life?**
A: Omri recommends visualization with a vision board, daily exercise and healthy eating. He plans something nice every month and does four things he loves every year. ([23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526) [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678) [28:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1702))

**Q: Is meditation worth it if I'm busy?**
A: Omri meditates most days and says people underestimate it. He says even ten minutes of meditation or a twenty-minute walk a day makes a big difference, if you have the discipline. ([20:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1248) [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316) [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1325))

**Q: What should I do if my job drains my energy?**
A: Omri says to take a break, reflect on it and talk to people. He also advises having a mentor who has gone through what you are facing. ([35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2106) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2121))

**Q: How do you stay fit into old age?**
A: The host describes the 'centenarian Olympics': think about what you want to do in your nineties and start training for it now. Omri cites a golf partner whose yoga kept him supple. ([29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1776) [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1843))


### Passage: Walking the Camino before changing careers [02:57–06:08, 538 words]

Note (AI): Omri's full account of how a 470 km solo walk reset him and preceded his move from Deloitte to leading Agri SA.

Omri van Zyl, guest [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177):
> When I did the Camino, I, I, just after that, I changed my career completely. So I went from a corporate, I worked at Deloitte, so I went from there to Agri SA, and it was unsure where I was going to, you know, end up after that happened, or before, before I took the break. and it's kind of serendipitous because everything just kind of fell in place, I guess, after I took the break. And, the break helped me to reset. I mean, sometimes you're so kind of entwined in your environment and, and, you know, in the expectations you have in yourself and others of, have of you, that you don't really see the wood from the trees. So when I did that, I kind of reset it myself completely, and, I mean, literally, I, I walked 470 kilometers. I, I didn't exercise before that or practice. So, after the first 32 kilometers the first day, the next day I couldn't move. My muscles were so sore and places I didn't even know, you know. So, I took my backpack and I threw everything out. I had two, two underpants, two short pants, a long trouser, and two short ones, and the expensive hiking shoes I had I threw away as well. So, I did that with my Crocs, actually. And the next day I did like six kilometers. I was so, so sore. And then the next day I did, I think, 12, and then I went up, and after the Camino I could walk 30, 40 kilometers a day, no problem. So what that does, it's a, it's a walking and kind of meditating. So, it's extremely, meditative and, and kind of focuses your mind because of the rhythm of the walking. I went on my own, so I didn't know anybody there. I didn't even know how it worked. So I, I made a lot of friends along the way. And it's a bit of a spiritual experience because I used to go into all the little churches, meditate a bit. You know, you'd see people sitting under a tree meditating. So everybody goes there for various reasons. For me, it was just to switch off completely. No cell phone, everything was conversational. You would pitch up at a pension, book it in. Okay, the first couple of days I slept in a, in, in a, orbergue is what they call it, with like 15 other oaks snoring the crap out of me. So I was like, this is not going to work. So I, I put myself into my own rooms. And I met so many people from so many different cultures there, you know. So it was, you know, it was a very enlightening experience. But I had no real idea what I was going to do when I got back. And it's as if the universe kind of conspired to put me in a certain place. And I, I actually got three job offers at the same time. And, and one of them was with Agri SA, and I decided to do that. So I became the CEO of Agri SA after Deloitte, and yeah, that put me on that journey.


### Passage: Why corporate risk and compliance wore him down [06:28–07:54, 211 words]

Note (AI): Explains the tipping point for leaving corporate: time spent on risk management outside his strengths.

Omri van Zyl, guest [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=388):
> I was in a very, very heavy corporate structure. risk and compliance was becoming crazy. I hear it's even worse now. Thank goodness I don't have that at the moment. I think I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a pioneer. I don't like rules, regulations, risk requirements, you know, all of that stuff. And I'm not good at it. I'm not good at admin. So I realized that I spend half my time managing risks. That impede on clear business transactions, and I think that kind of weighed me down because I wasn't playing in my strengths spaces. I was dying, literally. And so I knew I had to do something, and I decided to do the Camino. I've done the Inca Trail before, so that was also a nice experience. I had a couple of camel safaris in my life, so I went into the Sahara Desert in Morocco. Did a camel safari there. I also did the same in the Thar Desert in India. But what that does is it takes your mind and your reality, and it alters it completely, especially if you're in a different country, because you don't really understand the culture, the customs. Promise you backpacking through India for a month was very interesting. I liked it.


### Passage: From London to Botswana safari guide [10:51–13:04, 403 words]

Note (AI): Shows an early two-year break as a safari guide and the skills and worldview he says it gave him.

Omri van Zyl, guest [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=651):
> I said to myself, I'm going to take two years off because I didn't completely know what I wanted to do. And then I said, okay, after that, I want to do something adventurous. So I became a safari guide in Botswana. but not like a jeep jockey. I actually did a, I worked for Caribou Safaris. The first three months they put me under a Land Rover's, bonnet, and I worked in a mechanics workshop. We ate baloney and white bread every day with tabasco sauce on it. I couldn't swing a spanner, spanner to begin with. But there it's an essential skill. I mean, if you can't fix a car when it breaks down on these type of safaris, you spend fourteen days in the bush, deep trouble. So I did the mechanic thing and everybody was laughing at me, but I think I outshined them on the academic front. So I got my professional guides license. I, started guiding. So that taught me a lot about nature, right? So I know the birds, I know the animals. I really know the birds and the animals, not like, you know, guessing is that a carp's a mossy or not. So I, I got my adventure outlet. It's extremely hard work to do that. You take fourteen guests into the bush, they don't know anything. You're surrounded by wild animals. There's no fencing, elephants, lions, leopards, et cetera, hippos, big threat. and it's just you and the guide. And I was like twenty-four years old. I was like, and, and you have these people's lives in your own, in your hands. So I love doing that, but I knew that was not where I wanted to end up. But that taught me a whole different skill set of It taught me nature, but really, I mean, I looked like an animal when I worked there. I mean, I only showered like once a week. It taught me about mechanics. It taught me about people, a lot about people, different nationalities, general, you know, how people are. People are not the same. They're not the same in, in, in Germany as in France or in Australia or in South Africa or in America. And that, that actually kind of internationalized my worldview a bit. yeah, and then I came back and I did my articles and then I ended up working at Deloitte.


### Passage: Travel, loyalty and money versus freedom [14:57–17:40, 459 words]

Note (AI): Sets out his central dilemma: chasing money for freedom versus working from freedom, with examples from his boss and a friend.

Omri van Zyl, guest [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=897):
> every time I travel, I realize my current reality is not defined in the world. If you go to China, there's 1.4 billion people. I mean, there's more people in China than all of Africa and America combined. That, that puts you on a completely different mind space. But it's actually so funny, the moment you get into back two weeks later, you, you back into that, I think it's a, maybe a form of classical, conditioning that all, you get back in the seat and you just roll on. And sometimes you have to alter position, and I think that's very scary. It was for me, always scary to change. I mean, we come from a, from a day where people are very loyal, they're very kind of, committed, and that sometimes is a good thing, but sometimes it's a bad thing. So my current job, when I, when I spoke to Russell about it, he said that he would never compromise his freedom, and that, that actually made me think a lot, because you always think that you want to make enough money to get freedom, but you don't think that if you have freedom, you can actually make a lot more money doing that, or if you do something in your sweet, you know, in your sweet spot, or you do something your talents are really acquired to. So that's always the, the dynamic, and I think everybody thinks that. Listen, I need to pay the bills, I need to pay my house, I need to, you know, pay for the kids to go to school. And then, and then when you do, at the end, you know, people talk about retirement and when I retire and whatever, then you've lived your life, right? So there's, it, that's that space in between. So I think, you know, living in that freedom, I mean, incidentally, the guy that studied with me, that was my roommate at, Stellenbosch, I was in Wilgenhof, he's like a flogger. He goes around the country, makes all these flogs. His name is Chris Waite. Makes all these flogs. It's actually, we, our careers couldn't have been more different. He plays the guitar, he makes art, cooks, he does all that type of stuff. So on the one hand, you know, he's got a lot of freedom, but he would never have fitted in in a corporate career, ever. I knew that when he cooked for me and my girlfriend at the time wearing a, a, a skirt, that was like his Really, he's always been a bit of an alternative guy. So yeah, I, I think that's probably the philosophical dilemma that I think most people have, or most all people have.


### Passage: Visualization and weaving breaks into daily life [25:26–28:43, 632 words]

Note (AI): His practical answer to the host's 'sabbatical mindset' question: vision board, habits and regular planned experiences.

Omri van Zyl, guest [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1526):
> The first thing is, I think for me, was the visualization aspect, thinking about it. In the beginning, you don't believe it, you just fake it. You say, this is what I really want to do. If the sky was blue and I could do anything, and I had so much money, what do I want to do? I want to do this. You put that thing, and you, on your board, and you start imagining it. You start looking at the different angles of it, and what later happens is you reprogram your brain, all right? And then when you reprogram your brain, you attract all kinds of different things. Sometimes you're forced to do it, like in the restructuring, you're forced to do it. I mean, you don't want to get restructured. You're forced to do it through COVID, lots of people got restructured. and then you're sitting there and you're like, what the hell am I going to do now? You know, where am I now? And I think the, for me, what has worked is actually going back to that visualization. I actually do it with golf as well, but it doesn't always come off. You know, I play the 18 holes in my mind before I go to sleep and then I just screw it up the next day. So that, that doesn't always work. But, I think so, so that daily, it's always good to exercise. I'm a healthy eater generally, so it's not like I'm a vegan or a vegetarian or, you know, any of that. But, you know, eating healthy and trying to have a healthy lifestyle. People are different. Everybody likes different things. But I always say, if you imagine yourself at the pinnacle of doing that, what would that look like? What does your environment look like? Where are you sitting? What are you doing? Who are you talking to? You know, all those, those kind of things. So from a daily life perspective, I also think it's important because now if I plan a trip, I mean, I sent a, a message to my wife earlier of a, a island holiday and I've been to Mauritius too many times, but let's say in Zanzibar or whatever, with a baby, of course, that gives you something to manifest, to focus on, to look forward to. Because let's be honest, I mean, in daily life, can I say if you're really, if you're really mindful, you know, every moment feels like nirvana, all that's nonsense. I mean, the Buddhist philosophy is life is suffering. That is the philosophy. So you take out the worst right there and everything that you get is a bonus. That I think is important to have that kind of stuff that you look forward to during the year and then planning events in between because you can't just once a year go and do something you like and then you go back and do something you hate and then you go. So you have to do it continuously. So I said to my wife every month, obviously before she became pregnant or I made her pregnant, every month we want to do something nice. If we go to the Machalisberg, we do something. If we go to the Bushveld, I mean we've got so much stuff to do up here in Cape Town and everywhere. So, so I, I do four things every year. I go and hunt because I love the bush. I go fly fishing. I go to Paternoster, which I love. And what's the fifth one? I wanna go to the ocean and swim in the ocean. So those are the four things that I kind of wanna do every year, and that stimulates me.


### Passage: Freedom, energy and having a mentor [32:47–35:30, 491 words]

Note (AI): Links saying no, knowing what gives you energy, employer philosophy and mentorship into one closing argument.

Omri van Zyl, guest [32:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1967):
> I think Russell made me think a lot about freedom. What does that mean? I mean, we all have insecurities, we're all different. But if you have the freedom to say no sometimes, you actually gain more power, right? Because we do so much to please and kind of commit to our careers and work in yourself to death and You know, having the, the blue kind of under your eyes or your eyes are really droopy and, but he's actually a bit of a role model to me because he, he works from a place of complete freedom. If he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't do it. If he was, doesn't want to do something, he does it. And if something doesn't sound right to him, he says no. And if something, his yes is his yes and his no is his no type of thing. But he's unique in the sense that he's, he's not trying to please the whole world, you know. He's trying to do something that, that's special for him. And that gives him energy. And I think that's the other thing is what, what actually gives you energy. You need to figure that out and do more of that. And what takes away your energy? Because we always ask that in job applications. I mean, today I've got two. That's why I almost didn't make it. It's that question about what gives you energy, because not, not every environment gives people the same energy, right? And, it comes from, from him and the, the owner and the company philosophy where they, they started twenty years ago with nothing. Today the business is a sixteen billion rand business. I mean, that's in agriculture, that's a serious business. So that's kind of the philosophy of the workplace that I'm now. It's completely different to corporate or, you know, reporting to boards and audit committees and social and ethics committees and transformation committees and, oh, so I did that for long enough. But it, it gives you a sense of freedom to actually do the things that you love more. And, and I think very few employers actually do that, you know. So listen, okay, what is it that you, normally when you get, go, they need to actually appoint people in positions that gives them energy. That's what we do. So, you know, I just wanted to add that, because I think it's important. And if you're doing something that's not giving you energy, you need to take a break, reflect on it, talk to people. I mean, Pranpretorius was my, was my mentor for a long time. He's an extremely, extremely wise guy, and he helped me through a lot of it. So it also helps to have a mentor, to have people you can talk to that have actually gone through what you want to go through or that you are going through.


### Quotes

> "that you don't really see the wood from the trees."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=217)

> "it's as if the universe kind of conspired to put me in a certain place."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [05:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=350)

> "I wasn't playing in my strengths spaces. I was dying, literally."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [07:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=427)

> "I'm Afrikaans speaking, so if someone beats you with a stick, normally, you know, they're looking for trouble."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=503)

> "So the guy turned out to be the, the manager of the Rolling Stones. And, I had so many interesting conversations with him, and with his family, actually. And that kind of gives you a completely different perspective on, on life."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [09:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=570)

> "So it's sort of like a, a little hamster wheel that you get trapped on."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [14:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=881)

> "So when you have the tools, you need the discipline, right?"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316)

> "I don't have children, and, but I've always visualized myself having children. My baby is coming the 15th of October. and at some point you were like, am I ever gonna get there?"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [24:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1457)

> "In the beginning, you don't believe it, you just fake it."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "the Buddhist philosophy is life is suffering. That is the philosophy. So you take out the worst right there and everything that you get is a bonus."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1657)

> "So I'm a big believer in kaizen, right? I've always been, big fan of it, and that's about the continuous improvement of Work environment, manufacturing environment, you probably know it as well. But you apply that to your own life, right? And it doesn't have to be perfect at the beginning. It's never perfect. But then you chip away at it, you chip away at it slowly"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [29:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1762)

> "if you have the freedom to say no sometimes, you actually gain more power, right?"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977)

> "his yes is his yes and his no is his no type of thing."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2015)

> "You only got maybe 80, 85 years here. Get that stuff fixed."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · [36:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2172)


### Claims

> "I'm the CEO of RussellStone Capital. The RussellStone Group is quite a big player in the agriculture sector. My job is to, to look for expansion plans, corporate finance."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=47)

> "So throughout my career, I would take a month to go somewhere exotic, do something really adventurous. So in and amongst was going to Brazil, going to the Amazon, going to Peru."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=104)

> "so, so I think throughout my career, that's kind of kept me sane, you know, kept me reflective all the time and maybe mindful of where I am and where I want to be and reset myself in certain ways."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=152)

> "When I did the Camino, I, I, just after that, I changed my career completely. So I went from a corporate, I worked at Deloitte, so I went from there to Agri SA,"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=177)

> "sometimes you're so kind of entwined in your environment and, and, you know, in the expectations you have in yourself and others of, have of you, that you don't really see the wood from the trees."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=207)

> "literally, I, I walked 470 kilometers. I, I didn't exercise before that or practice. So, after the first 32 kilometers the first day, the next day I couldn't move."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [03:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=228)

> "So what that does, it's a, it's a walking and kind of meditating. So, it's extremely, meditative and, and kind of focuses your mind because of the rhythm of the walking."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [04:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=278)

> "And I, I actually got three job offers at the same time. And, and one of them was with Agri SA, and I decided to do that. So I became the CEO of Agri SA after Deloitte,"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [05:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=355)

> "I think I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a pioneer. I don't like rules, regulations, risk requirements, you know, all of that stuff. And I'm not good at it. I'm not good at admin."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [06:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=400)

> "So I realized that I spend half my time managing risks. That impede on clear business transactions, and I think that kind of weighed me down because I wasn't playing in my strengths spaces. I was dying, literally."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Leaving corporate life · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=415)

> "But what that does is it takes your mind and your reality, and it alters it completely, especially if you're in a different country, because you don't really understand the culture, the customs."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [07:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=457)

> "I thought I was going to sit there and meditate with Buddhist monks for a week until I did it for one day. It was like, no one speaks English. I can't eat this food."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=489)

> "So I stayed there for three days. So the guy turned out to be the, the manager of the Rolling Stones. And, I had so many interesting conversations with him, and with his family, actually."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [09:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=567)

> "I spent a year in London, selling cooking pots to Nigerian and Ghanaian families and traveling."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [10:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=620)

> "So I became a safari guide in Botswana. but not like a jeep jockey. I actually did a, I worked for Caribou Safaris. The first three months they put me under a Land Rover's, bonnet, and I worked in a mechanics workshop."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=660)

> "So I got my professional guides license. I, started guiding. So that taught me a lot about nature, right? So I know the birds, I know the animals."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [11:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=697)

> "You take fourteen guests into the bush, they don't know anything. You're surrounded by wild animals. There's no fencing, elephants, lions, leopards, et cetera, hippos, big threat."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=716)

> "People are not the same. They're not the same in, in, in Germany as in France or in Australia or in South Africa or in America. And that, that actually kind of internationalized my worldview a bit."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=764)

> "on the one hand, you have this ambition driving you to do, to do something corporate or something You know, professionally important, and on the other hand, you, you have your, your innate adventurous spirit or your artistic spirit or whatever you want to call that."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=793)

> "I think in one's career, if you have to find a balance between the two. If you don't, one of them is gonna, not one of them, I think mostly it's the, the money earning part that eats you up."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=814)

> "then you get trapped in corporates because you earn money. Okay, so you earn money and the money helps you to have adventures, but then you never, don't, never have enough leave."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=869)

> "every time I travel, I realize my current reality is not defined in the world. If you go to China, there's 1.4 billion people."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=897)

> "the moment you get into back two weeks later, you, you back into that, I think it's a, maybe a form of classical, conditioning that all, you get back in the seat and you just roll on."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [15:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=919)

> "he said that he would never compromise his freedom, and that, that actually made me think a lot, because you always think that you want to make enough money to get freedom, but you don't think that if you have freedom, you can actually make a lot more money doing that,"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=958)

> "and I think I've always made budgeting a priority in terms of my travel. It's not something I would just do willy-nilly. You know, especially in the beginning, if you don't have a lot of money, When you just start a family, you know, you have to kind of really budget to do that."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1095)

> "we left Stellenbosch and we went up to the source of the Nile in Uganda and came all the way back. At the time, no cell phone, oldest guy in the group was like 23."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1151)

> "So it's important to be true to yourself and for people to give you that freedom to be true to yourself. Otherwise, you'll always be unhappy."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1211)

> "So, I meditate, every day, most days. So, it's important to bring that mindfulness into the, into play, and I think people often underestimate the value of meditation."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [20:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1248)

> "So when you have the tools, you need the discipline, right? So if you don't have the discipline, you have the best tools, but you can't apply it."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1316)

> "This is not difficult. I mean, it's like meditating ten minutes a day, makes a big difference. Taking a walk for twenty minutes a day makes a big difference."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1325)

> "So I did my two degrees while I worked full-time, and I always visualized how I would, how I would perform, writing a test, studying, and the more I visualized it, the more it actually happened. I'm a Golden Key scholar."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [23:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1405)

> "I have a vision board. I look at that vision board every day, and when I go to sleep, I imagine that and explore that, when I meditate in my mind, and even it's the same vision."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1436)

> "In the beginning, you don't believe it, you just fake it. You say, this is what I really want to do. If the sky was blue and I could do anything, and I had so much money, what do I want to do?"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "and what later happens is you reprogram your brain, all right? And then when you reprogram your brain, you attract all kinds of different things."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Meditation and visualization · [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1549)

> "you can't just once a year go and do something you like and then you go back and do something you hate and then you go. So you have to do it continuously."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [27:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1678)

> "So, so I, I do four things every year. I go and hunt because I love the bush. I go fly fishing. I go to Paternoster, which I love."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career breaks and adventure · [28:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1702)

> "the things that we actually wanna do more of, which is meditating, reading, walking, spending time in nature, spending time with family, all of those things don't actually cost you any money, okay?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1737)

> "But you apply that to your own life, right? And it doesn't have to be perfect at the beginning. It's never perfect. But then you chip away at it, you chip away at it slowly, you make it better, you get better, you work on something else."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [29:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1776)

> "And in the centenary Olympics is you think about all the things you want to do in your nineties, and you start practicing for them now already."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Healthy habits and continuous improvement · [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1843)

> "But if you have the freedom to say no sometimes, you actually gain more power, right? Because we do so much to please and kind of commit to our careers"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Ambition versus freedom · [32:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=1977)

> "And I think that's the other thing is what, what actually gives you energy. You need to figure that out and do more of that. And what takes away your energy?"
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [33:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2029)

> "they, they started twenty years ago with nothing. Today the business is a sixteen billion rand business. I mean, that's in agriculture, that's a serious business."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Career · [34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2053)

> "And if you're doing something that's not giving you energy, you need to take a break, reflect on it, talk to people. I mean, Pranpretorius was my, was my mentor for a long time."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [35:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2106)

> "So it also helps to have a mentor, to have people you can talk to that have actually gone through what you want to go through or that you are going through."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2121)

> "But if you're solely sick, many people don't do anything about it. I'm like, what the hell? That's almost more important than knee surgery, you know, in a lot of respects, because you only have one life."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [36:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2162)

> "Get that stuff fixed. Understand. Test, test the universe. Test alternatives. Do something completely different, you know. See how that works for you."
> — Omri van Zyl, guest · topic: Energy and mentorship · [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1522695_high.mp3#t=2177)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Thriving Through Breaks: Balance & Success Episode 13 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Omri van Zyl (CEO of RussellStone Capital) about taking career breaks and sabbaticals for adventure and self-reflection. Omri discusses how these breaks helped him reset, gain new perspectives, and eventually led him to change careers from corporate to the agriculture sector. Omri emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between ambition and one's adventurous spirit, and how visualization, meditation, and healthy habits have been instrumental in his journey. He also highlights the value of having mentors and coaches to guide personal growth. The conversation touches on themes of freedom, energy, and living a deliberate life aligned with one's values and aspirations. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Solid Gold Podcasts · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #038 The Reinvention Pause | Mike Stopforth

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/038-the-reinvention-pause/
- Date: 2025-01-27 (as at 2025-01-27)
- Guest: Mike Stopforth
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Sabbatical after business exit, Identity beyond job title, Execution over perfect ideas, Asking for help, Skills versus environment, Re-entry into work, Supporting others' breaks
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1521500
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3

### About the guest: Mike Stopforth

- managing director · Flume
- Serial entrepreneur and seasoned marketing and communications professional. Former CEO of digital marketing business Cerebra, which he sold in 2013 and exited in 2018. Completed a master's degree in 2019, then started Beyond Binary and 48 Hours.

In their own words:

> "I'm the managing director of a fast-growing digital marketing business called Flume. In a previous life, I was the CEO of another digital marketing business called Cerebra, and I sold that business in 2013, and I exited the business in 2018," [00:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=51)

> "I had failed to get my undergrad degree I'd actually dropped out of university before starting a business I dropped out of university twice much to the eternal chagrin of my parents" [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=137)

> "And then in, in 2021, I was like, I better get my act into gear. And so I started a business called Beyond Binary, which continued to grow through 2021. And then in 2022, I think I launched another business called 48 Hours," [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=642)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani interviews Mike Stopforth, managing director of Flume and former CEO of Cerebra, about a break he earmarked for one year of study in 2019 that became a roughly four-year reinvention period. Mike describes completing an LSE master's, the stall caused by COVID, losing the identity of ex-CEO around age 40, and small businesses he built in between. He draws lessons about executing imperfect ideas, writing to think, asking for help, and separating skills from the environment they were used in, and he reflects on returning to an agency with partners and stakeholders.

**Key ideas**

- Mike argues a bad version of something in reality beats a perfect idea never executed; obsessing over a perfect next chapter left him doing nothing and fed his anxiety. ([11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=703) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=743) [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=775) [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=775))
- Mike says he had been framing his experiences through other people's opinions of him rather than what mattered to him. ([07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=448) [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=489) [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=541))
- Mike argues skills should be separated from the environment they were applied in; a toxic workplace can make you disown things you are good at. ([20:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1218) [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1230) [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1344) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1360))
- Mike found he was good at agency work after all, and that the right environment let him pursue leadership development and facilitation. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=250) [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=289))
- Mike says writing is his best way of turning ideas into reality and that he should have asked for help earlier. ([13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=822) [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=836) [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=886))
- Petro describes her sabbatical as experimenting and filtering what to keep, including discovering she does not want to become a yoga instructor. ([19:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1153) [24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1466) [24:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1496))
- Mike holds that any break, even doing nothing on a beach, returns lessons and perspective to work. ([25:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1540) [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1586) [27:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1621))

**Lessons**

- Mike's experience suggests getting imperfect ideas into the world quickly reveals where you are confident and capable, rather than waiting for a perfect plan. ([11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=703) [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=775))
- Mike says a job title can hide identity issues that surface once the role is removed; he worked on this with a therapist. ([08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=489) [15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=952))
- According to Mike, asking for support sooner would have helped; when he did ask, help was abundant. ([14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=886) [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=897))
- Mike advises separating acquired skills and experience from the environment you delivered them in before discarding a line of work. ([20:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1218) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1360))
- Mike sees no point in burning out talented people and encourages direct reports to take development-focused time off. ([27:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1662) [28:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1701))

**Who it's for:** Entrepreneurs and executives leaving a role they built, people planning or already on a sabbatical, anyone whose sense of self is tied to a title, and managers deciding how to respond when staff ask for time off.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Mike sold Cerebra in 2013 and exited the business in 2018. ([00:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=51))
- He announced his departure to the business in March 2018 with a six-month handover and succession plan. ([06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=380))
- He completed his master's degree at the end of 2019, from a London School of Economics social impact entrepreneurship programme. ([02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=178) [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=455))
- He started Beyond Binary in 2021 and launched 48 Hours in 2022. ([10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=642))
- He describes the whole period before joining Flume as essentially a four-year journey. ([11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=680))
- Mike dropped out of university twice before starting a business. ([02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=137))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What happens when a planned one-year sabbatical runs longer?**
A: Mike planned 2019 for a master's, but COVID put his next venture on hold; he started Beyond Binary in 2021 and 48 Hours in 2022, calling it essentially a four-year journey before joining Flume. ([07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=455) [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=642) [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=680))

**Q: How do you cope with losing your identity after leaving a CEO role?**
A: Mike says that at 40 he felt he could no longer trade on being ex-CEO of Cerebra, realised he was framing himself through others' opinions, and did hard work including therapy to reconnect with what mattered to him. ([07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=448) [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=489) [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=541) [15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=952))

**Q: How do I stop overthinking my next career move?**
A: Mike says chasing a perfect next chapter left him doing nothing and more anxious; starting things, writing or small businesses, got things moving. A bad version in reality beats a perfect unexecuted idea. ([11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=703) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=743) [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=775))

**Q: What would someone do differently on a career break in hindsight?**
A: Mike says he would have written a lot more, reflected with friends, and asked for help earlier when he felt bewildered. ([13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=822) [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=836) [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=886))

**Q: Should I abandon my industry if my last job burned me out?**
A: Mike argues you should separate your skills from the environment; he swore off advertising but found he was good at agency work, and uses a dental nurse in a toxic practice as an example. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=250) [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=289) [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1344) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1360))

**Q: Who can help you through a career transition?**
A: Petro advocates coaches for any goal. Mike used a therapist for identity issues and an entrepreneur who helped him articulate his value proposition, plus friends and fellow entrepreneurs. ([15:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=906) [15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=952) [16:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=997))

**Q: How should a manager respond when an employee asks for a break?**
A: Mike says he would encourage it, within reason, for people developing themselves, and sees no point burning out talented people. Petro notes breaks seem to make people more empathetic to others taking them. ([27:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1662) [28:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1701) [28:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1716))

**Q: What is it like returning to work after an extended break?**
A: Mike says moving from running his own business with sole accountability to working with partners and stakeholders has been a learning curve, and time away gave him perspective and objectivity. ([25:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1540) [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1552) [26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1563) [27:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1621))


### Passage: Why Mike left and chose an LSE master's [01:36–03:43, 357 words]

Note (AI): Explains the instinctive decision, the unfinished-degree motivation and the social-impact entrepreneurship programme behind his break.

Mike Stopforth, guest [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=96):
> I think it was largely an instinctive decision. I Had had such a great journey running Cerebra and I'd learned so many lessons through the process and like many people I think I'd fantasized about what I might do with my time if it was unencumbered by the responsibilities of the job or profession or whatever it is that we become used to you know kind of in our day to day lives and towards the latter part of my tenure at Cerebra I started thinking about going back to business school as it were to get a degree. I had failed to get my undergrad degree I'd actually dropped out of university before starting a business I dropped out of university twice much to the eternal chagrin of my parents and I'd be lying if I if I said that that didn't bug me a little bit that I hadn't actually got that Piece of paper that said that I was, qualified in inverted commas. I was legitimized by some tertiary institution. And so, I did some homework as to executive masters programs that looked like a good fit for me. I'd had several friends go through the MBA process, and that was obviously an exciting and challenging prospect. And then I found a, a program at the London School of Economics that was focused around entrepreneurship in the social impact realm. And I was actually really intrigued by that. I think partly because I've always been left-leaning in my politics and partly because I grew up in a country and ran a business in a country that has significant social, inequalities and social challenges to overcome. And also because I think business is a really interesting way to look at solving some problems in the, in the social sphere. So yes, I signed up for their program. That was what happened. There wasn't a hell of a lot of thought or planning in it though, Petro. I think most people, yourself included, do a much better job of planning things. I tend to fly by the seat of my pants a little bit. So yeah.


### Passage: COVID, turning 40 and losing the CEO identity [07:28–09:41, 415 words]

Note (AI): The turning point where plans stalled, identity loss surfaced, and he recognised he was framing himself through others' opinions.

Mike Stopforth, guest [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=448):
> It became a little bit harder. When things didn't go according to plan. And when I say things didn't go according to plan, I had earmarked 2019 to do the master's degree. I completed that degree at the end of 2019. I had some amazing ideas of things I wanted to do in the world. And I was looking at office space in Santon and I had lease agreements in front of me in January 2020. And then these whispers of a, you know, a concerning trend around the world started to appear. And so I kind of put everything on hold for a little bit. And before I knew it, there we were in lockdown and the whole world had changed around me. And that year I turned 40 and I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't, or I felt didn't feel comfortable trading on being the ex-CEO of Cerebra anymore. I felt like there was a statute of limitations and how long I could take credit for my legacy. And all of a sudden I was kind of identityless. I didn't have That moniker to go by anymore. And I was getting really tired of going to social events once we were out of lockdown and back to a level of normality and people asking me, well, you know, what are you doing now? And me not being able to answer that with any real, really interesting or compelling answer. I'm working on stuff, you know, which felt terrible. I hated saying that. I just wanted to be able to tell them I've created this new thing and it's amazing and you've read about it in the press and blah, blah, blah. and I suppose, you know, the lesson in that was that I was framing all of my experiences through other people's opinions of me rather than what I wanted and what was important to me and what I really cared about. And, and, I'd gotten so hung up on creating a next chapter that was amazing and incredible in the minds of everybody else that I'd lost touch with what was really important and true for me. And it, yeah, took some really hard work and some proper Therapy and, some, yeah, painful experiences, I think, to come around to that. So yeah, it went according to plan initially, and then over the next kind of two or three years went much less according to plan.


### Passage: Perfectionism, anxiety and the value of executing [11:43–13:26, 268 words]

Note (AI): His central lesson: waiting for a perfect next chapter fed anxiety, while putting imperfect work into the world broke the cycle.

Mike Stopforth, guest [11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=703):
> I learned I can be flippant and arrogant in the assessment of my own capability. I think the biggest lesson I learned, Petro, was that I spent an overwhelming amount of time being really, really hard on myself about the version of things That existed through the lens of everybody else's opinions. I was at the ripe old age of 40, way too concerned with what my fellow entrepreneurs thought I was, or thought of what I was doing, what my mentors and teachers thought of what I was doing. And yeah, I got, I think I got way too, too preoccupied with that. And so I got so obsessed with trying to come up with a perfect version or idea of my next chapter that I landed up just not doing anything. And the longer I didn't do anything, the worse the anxiety became. And so this kind of negative cycle perpetuated on itself. The moment I started doing things, whether it was writing or coming up with, with new concepts or starting a little business, then, then things started happening around that. So I think my most valuable lesson was a A really bad version of something in reality is always going to be better than a perfect idea that is, you know, never executed or lives only in, in, in concept. And so getting a lot of bad ideas or bad execution into the world, very quickly helped me realize where I was confident, capable, and, and, and happy versus all of the highfaluted ideas that didn't necessarily have any value or meaning to them.


### Passage: What he would do differently: writing and help [13:42–15:05, 261 words]

Note (AI): Concrete hindsight for anyone on a break: write more, reflect with others, and ask for support sooner.

Mike Stopforth, guest [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=822):
> I think I would have written a lot more and, and not necessarily, cause what I did want to do is try and write something. I was, I kept trying to write a manuscript or come up with, again, come up with an idea, something meaningful and powerful and impactful. And actually just writing is my very best way of turning ideas into reality, figuring out ways of thinking and ways of solving problems. So I would have written a lot more. I should have written a lot more. I probably should have asked for help earlier. And I don't mean I'm down in the dumps. I need help. Just reflecting with friends, doing exactly what you're doing. You're, you're going through the exercise of refining your ideas through a sieve, through a, through the lens of other people's experiences and stories, which is extraordinarily powerful, and I think you should be credited for it. But that, just that exercise I think is very useful as a way of sort of articulating, defining one's next, steps. And then also, I suppose, asking for help when I really did need it. It took me a very long time to go, I'm not okay, and I need support, and actually I'm feeling pretty bewildered and uncoordinated here, and it would be great to have somebody. And the moment I did ask for help, it was abundant. And yeah, I probably took a little, little, little too long to do that. Yeah, those are some of the things I think I would do differently.


### Passage: Separating your skills from a toxic environment [20:18–23:06, 518 words]

Note (AI): A worked argument that disliking a past workplace should not lead you to discount the skills you built there.

Mike Stopforth, guest [20:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1218):
> Yeah, I, I think you're onto something really interesting there, Petro, because I think I was avoiding a lot of the things I associated with my professional experience thus far because I had conflated the worst parts of my kind of corporate experience with those parts of me that kind of enjoyed that kind of work, if that makes sense, right? The, the reality is if any of us have achieved any level of success in our, in our professional lives, it's because we're good at something. Or a set of things that we find a kind of a groove, either as an entrepreneur or an intrapreneur or as a corporate citizen or whatever it might be, or a public servant. We find a way to exercise those skills and gifts, and we very seldom take heed of how good we've gotten at them, how much progress we've actually made. You become a specialist. You do your 10,000, in some cases 30,000 hours of refining that work to a scalpel's edge of effectiveness. And then the downside is maybe we get to the end of a professional chapter and we go, I don't want to do that because that reminds me of the other stuff that wasn't great. But I think what I realized was I am good at those things. I'm really good at those things. And it was always surprising to me when I would speak to other people who are facing similar problems that I'd faced in the business, but at a different stage of their journey. And they would go, That makes so much sense. And I was like, yeah, but that makes, you know, that kind of, it was, it was a knee jerk thought for me. It was something that had been refined through years and years of, you know, kind of trials and tribulations in the industry. The, well, the point I'm getting to is that the things you're good at and what you did or what you experienced at work are two separate things because there's environment and then there's the skills in which you applied your trade. Sorry, there's the skills that you have in the environment in which you applied your trade. And those skills in the environment aren't always the same thing, right? Like you could have been a dental nurse, but in a very toxic environment and started hating what it is that you do. And then find that you go to a different practice, a different surgery, and all of a sudden you have an amazing experience because you're surrounded with good people who want to see you grow. And so I think trying to separate the skill set that you've acquired And the experience that you've acquired from the environment that you were expected to deliver it in is an important part of this journey because we are all incredibly skilled and we've gained wonderful experience and discounting that because maybe the environment didn't recognize it, it would be a shame, I think. There's something in that that I don't know how to articulate.


### Passage: Bringing reinvention lessons into a new role [25:40–27:17, 315 words]

Note (AI): Describes moving from sole accountability to working with partners and stakeholders, and why time away gives perspective.

Mike Stopforth, guest [25:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1540):
> Oh, yeah, I think tons, both on a personal and a professional level. I think, owing largely to the work that I did in the, in the middle on both levels. It's also a different environment. you know, I ran a business where essentially I could make decisions with impunity. The downside of that was I had ultimate accountability as well. If things went pear-shaped, it was, it was my fault. Whereas in the environment I'm in now, there, there are more stakeholders and, there are more partners, and I'm getting used to getting, being married again, being married to professional, stakeholders and partners, and that's been a wonderful learning curve. There's parts where I think I've added a lot of value, there's parts where I think I've been quite bad at it because of either a set of assumptions that I made or, you know, me having to get used to being more consultative. I think even if you take a pure sabbatical and you sit on a Beach, for three months and do absolutely nothing whatsoever, you're going to be able to bring lessons back into, into the environment. I think that, you know, most of us that have achieved some level of professional success are geared towards that kind of way of being. And, you know, like I said, we all fantasize about doing nothing. And yet I think it would drive ninety nine point nine percent of us mad. I, I can barely do nothing for a half an hour at home and I've got to suddenly like get busy with something. And, you know, taking time away, I think, as you said, to refocus, I think also places a different lens on what it is that you do professionally and, and just offers you a level of perspective and objectivity that you might not have had before. So yes, certainly.


### Quotes

> "I think the fantasy is what we imagine we're capable of when we don't have to do all the shitty things we have to do in our daily work lives, right? So we imagine that there's some version of our lives, our professional existence that doesn't include all of those bits and pieces that we find so typically frustrating."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=232)

> "I think I was suffering a degree of post-traumatic advertising stress disorder."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=250)

> "when there is a, you know, an entrepreneurial character, often that character comes with certain maverick instincts and, and character traits and, and taking somebody like that out of the business creates an amazing vacuum for other talented people to grow."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=419)

> "I felt like there was a statute of limitations and how long I could take credit for my legacy."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [08:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=500)

> "Really, it was just glorified me, not necessarily anything of scale or impact or importance."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [11:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=694)

> "I learned I can be flippant and arrogant in the assessment of my own capability."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=703)

> "A really bad version of something in reality is always going to be better than a perfect idea that is, you know, never executed"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=775)

> "actually just writing is my very best way of turning ideas into reality,"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=836)

> "And the moment I did ask for help, it was abundant."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [14:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=897)

> "just kind of simple pursuits, focusing rather on being way more present with my kids, perfecting the morning pancake, trying to figure out how to play Steve Gadd's part on Paul Simon's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover on the drums, and just little pursuits that helped me challenge myself and, and grow and, and, and, and develop connection with family and with friends"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [18:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1089)

> "You do your 10,000, in some cases 30,000 hours of refining that work to a scalpel's edge of effectiveness."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1274)

> "I don't want my hobby to become a job that I then later start despising,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [24:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1496)

> "we all fantasize about doing nothing. And yet I think it would drive ninety nine point nine percent of us mad."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [26:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1609)

> "my next break would probably be focused around Really intentional check-ins with my family. you know, my son will be close on 25 at that stage. My middle daughter will be 21. They're at the kind of age where I think we could do some really cool stuff together as, as adults, that we wouldn't have been able to do, as kids."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1754)


### Claims

> "I'm the managing director of a fast-growing digital marketing business called Flume. In a previous life, I was the CEO of another digital marketing business called Cerebra, and I sold that business in 2013, and I exited the business in 2018,"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [00:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=51)

> "I had failed to get my undergrad degree I'd actually dropped out of university before starting a business I dropped out of university twice much to the eternal chagrin of my parents"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [02:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=137)

> "And then I found a, a program at the London School of Economics that was focused around entrepreneurship in the social impact realm. And I was actually really intrigued by that."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=178)

> "And also because I think business is a really interesting way to look at solving some problems in the, in the social sphere."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [03:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=204)

> "And I think I was suffering a degree of post-traumatic advertising stress disorder. The advertising industry, like many, has its own downsides. And I think I'd seen a lot of that and I'd become quite like jaded and cynical about the marketing world."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Skills versus environment · [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=250)

> "But what I would come to discover was that, I was actually really good at the agency stuff and that the right environment provided me with a platform to do all those things that I cared about, leadership development and facilitation"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Skills versus environment · [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=289)

> "I announced that resignation early in 2018 to my, to the people who'd bought my business. I announced it to the business in March with a six month plan for Handover and for succession and for all of the other elements that we thought were really important to consider."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=380)

> "often that character comes with certain maverick instincts and, and character traits and, and taking somebody like that out of the business creates an amazing vacuum for other talented people to grow."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [07:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=423)

> "I had earmarked 2019 to do the master's degree. I completed that degree at the end of 2019. I had some amazing ideas of things I wanted to do in the world. And I was looking at office space in Santon and I had lease agreements in front of me in January 2020."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=455)

> "And that year I turned 40 and I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't, or I felt didn't feel comfortable trading on being the ex-CEO of Cerebra anymore. I felt like there was a statute of limitations and how long I could take credit for my legacy."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=489)

> "the lesson in that was that I was framing all of my experiences through other people's opinions of me rather than what I wanted and what was important to me and what I really cared about."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=541)

> "And then in, in 2021, I was like, I better get my act into gear. And so I started a business called Beyond Binary, which continued to grow through 2021. And then in 2022, I think I launched another business called 48 Hours,"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Re-entry into work · [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=642)

> "essentially a four-year journey, building little businesses in between. But it would be generous to call them businesses because essentially I was just packaging and marketing my own time at a premium."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Re-entry into work · [11:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=680)

> "I got so obsessed with trying to come up with a perfect version or idea of my next chapter that I landed up just not doing anything. And the longer I didn't do anything, the worse the anxiety became."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Execution over perfect ideas · [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=743)

> "A really bad version of something in reality is always going to be better than a perfect idea that is, you know, never executed or lives only in, in, in concept."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Execution over perfect ideas · [12:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=775)

> "actually just writing is my very best way of turning ideas into reality, figuring out ways of thinking and ways of solving problems. So I would have written a lot more."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Execution over perfect ideas · [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=836)

> "It took me a very long time to go, I'm not okay, and I need support, and actually I'm feeling pretty bewildered and uncoordinated here, and it would be great to have somebody. And the moment I did ask for help, it was abundant."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Asking for help · [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=886)

> "I'm a great proponent of using coaches for whatever you want to do. If you want to climb a mountain, you'll get a coach to help you to do that."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Asking for help · [15:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=906)

> "One took the shape of a really incredible therapist that I worked with to deal with some of the personal identity stuff, because what I realized was some of what was surfacing was kind of always there, but I'd managed to hide it by being busy and connecting my identity to this idea of being the CEO of this thing."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Asking for help · [15:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=952)

> "her job was to help me articulate my Unique angle or value proposition, if you like, to the world, for the world, and then to kind of channel that into action and partnership and execution."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Asking for help · [16:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=997)

> "I've stopped seeing them as two mutually exclusive worlds and started thinking about how the work that I had to do personally impacted on my ability to define and grow and nurture a professional identity."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [17:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1057)

> "focusing rather on being way more present with my kids, perfecting the morning pancake, trying to figure out how to play Steve Gadd's part on Paul Simon's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover on the drums,"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [18:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1091)

> "Like I've always thought, because I've always done yoga, so I'm like, maybe I can become a yoga instructor. So I did a, did a yoga instructor's course. And then you discover through doing it that maybe this is not really what I want to do."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [19:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1153)

> "because I had conflated the worst parts of my kind of corporate experience with those parts of me that kind of enjoyed that kind of work, if that makes sense, right?"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Skills versus environment · [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1230)

> "Like you could have been a dental nurse, but in a very toxic environment and started hating what it is that you do. And then find that you go to a different practice, a different surgery, and all of a sudden you have an amazing experience"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Skills versus environment · [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1344)

> "trying to separate the skill set that you've acquired And the experience that you've acquired from the environment that you were expected to deliver it in is an important part of this journey"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Skills versus environment · [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1360)

> "So I think this process of a sabbatical has been sifting out what do I want to keep and take forward with me. And which are the things I want to let go of,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1466)

> "I don't want my hobby to become a job that I then later start despising,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [24:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1496)

> "I ran a business where essentially I could make decisions with impunity. The downside of that was I had ultimate accountability as well. If things went pear-shaped, it was, it was my fault."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Re-entry into work · [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1552)

> "there are more stakeholders and, there are more partners, and I'm getting used to getting, being married again, being married to professional, stakeholders and partners, and that's been a wonderful learning curve."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Re-entry into work · [26:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1563)

> "I think even if you take a pure sabbatical and you sit on a Beach, for three months and do absolutely nothing whatsoever, you're going to be able to bring lessons back into, into the environment."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Re-entry into work · [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1586)

> "taking time away, I think, as you said, to refocus, I think also places a different lens on what it is that you do professionally and, and just offers you a level of perspective and objectivity that you might not have had before."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Re-entry into work · [27:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1621)

> "I see no point to burning people out, especially really talented people, to the point where they can't contribute value to an organization anymore,"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Supporting others' breaks · [27:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1662)

> "I had a conversation with somebody yesterday about I was trying to encourage them to take time off, because I can kind of See that they are exerting themselves with the very best intentions,"
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Supporting others' breaks · [28:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1701)

> "What I've noticed, I think, with some of the people that I've interviewed is that it's made them more tolerant and empathetic towards others who might want to take breaks."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Supporting others' breaks · [28:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1716)

> "my next break would probably be focused around Really intentional check-ins with my family. you know, my son will be close on 25 at that stage. My middle daughter will be 21."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1754)

> "one of my big hobbies is, is jujitsu. And if I keep on the current trajectory that I'm on at the moment, I'll be close to getting my brown or black belt by the time I'm at that stage."
> — Mike Stopforth, guest · topic: Sabbatical after business exit · [29:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521500_high.mp3#t=1795)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Lessons from a longer-than-intended break. Episode 12 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani interviews Mike Stopforth, a serial entrepreneur and seasoned marketing and communications professional, who took an extended break after selling his digital marketing business in 2018. Mike shares his journey of pursuing a master�s degree, navigating challenges during the COVID-19 pandemic, and reflecting on personal growth, family connections, and lessons in entrepreneurship. He emphasises the value of executing ideas, refining thoughts through writing, and seeking help when needed. Mike has since started two new businesses and re-joined a digital marketing company, applying insights from his "reinvention period" to his new ventures. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Solid Gold Podcasts � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #037 Pausing to Pivot | Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/037-pausing-to-pivot/
- Date: 2025-01-25 (as at 2025-01-25)
- Guest: Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Burnout and sabbatical, Career pivot from mining, Self-reflection during a break, Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks, Mentoring and empathy
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1521193
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3

### About the guest: Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio

- executive leader and geoscientist · ANSTO · Australia
- Took a sabbatical in 2015 after nearly burning out, then pivoted her career from mining to the nuclear industry. Founded Women in Mining South Africa in 2010 and was recognised in the inaugural Top 100 Global Women in Mining in 2013.

In their own words:

> "Well, I am currently working in Australia's only nuclear reactor at an organization called ANSTO. It's been quite a change from working mining previously." [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=78)

> "Well, back in 2015, I'd been about 20 years into mining at that point, and I'd, pretty much reached many of the goals that I'd wanted to in mining. So I had been thinking about what would be next." [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=104)

> "I got the assignment done, which was fantastic, so I graduated from the company director's course, and that was step one in my grand plan of, of making a change in my career." [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=473)

> "I mentor a lot of PhDs in particular who are facing a change from being in a academic environment to potentially moving into the industry environment." [22:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1324)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks to Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio about the sabbatical she took in 2015. At the time she was about 20 years into mining, holding three roles after a takeover and close to burnout. Pamela describes her plan for the break and what actually happened: she finished a company director's course, travelled to Cairns, reflected and job hunted. She explains how the break led to a deliberate pivot to the nuclear industry at ANSTO. She also covers how she now spots burnout signs, uses mini breaks, and mentors PhDs through their own career changes.

**Key ideas**

- Pamela says that recognising she was close to burnout gave her permission to stop and make a change she had been too comfortable to make. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=188) [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=189))
- Pamela used the break deliberately to broaden beyond mining, build transferable skills and target a science-based organisation. ([08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=536) [10:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=646) [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=926))
- Pamela got the most out of asking trusted people about her strengths and areas of development and comparing their views with her own. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823) [14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=851))
- Pamela says the burnout eroded her self-esteem more deeply than she expected, and that nurturing herself was the main thing she took from the break. ([11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=682) [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=713))
- Pamela says careers are not a straight line; she uses the word pivot deliberately when advising her STEM mentees. ([15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=956) [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=958))
- The host's 'sabbatical mindset', which Pamela endorses: regular mini breaks and long weekends that disconnect you enough to make them count. ([17:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1052) [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1207))

**Pamela's self-reflection during her career break** ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823))

1. Answer quizzes about what your ideal job would be.
2. List pros and cons of the roles you come across.
3. Revisit personality analyses such as Myers-Briggs and past performance review feedback.
4. Ask people you are close to what they see as your strengths and areas of development.
5. Compare their feedback with your own view of yourself and the directions you could go.

**Lessons**

- Pamela advises learning the warning signs of burnout and taking time out to nurture yourself before you reach that point. ([11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=713) [17:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1054))
- Pamela's savings net, built after two earlier redundancies, made resigning during a mining downturn less frightening. ([02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=147) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415))
- Pamela wishes she had taken more holiday time and spent less time job hunting. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=744) [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=990))
- Pamela says short, deliberate breaks away from phone and computer can keep burnout at bay during intense periods such as COVID. ([17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1068) [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1150))
- Pamela says having made a deliberate change herself gives her empathy for mentees and makes her a better manager. ([22:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1336) [23:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1386))

**Who it's for:** Professionals near burnout who are weighing a break or resignation, people planning a career change between industries, and managers and mentors who support staff or early-career researchers through career transitions.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Pamela took her sabbatical in 2015, after about 20 years in mining. ([01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=104))
- She works at ANSTO, which runs Australia's only nuclear reactor. ([01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=78))
- She had been made redundant in mining twice before her 2015 resignation. ([06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415))
- She applied for 30-odd roles and had about three or four interviews. ([09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=565))
- She founded Women in Mining South Africa in 2010 and was named in the inaugural Top 100 Global Women in Mining in 2013. ([01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=61))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why do people wait until they are nearly burnt out before taking a break?**
A: Pamela puts it down to comfort: you settle into a comfort zone, build on past successes, and the next step feels scary. Recognising she was close to burnout gave her permission to stop. ([02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173) [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=188))

**Q: What triggered Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio's sabbatical?**
A: A takeover of the mine she worked on left her holding three roles without support and close to burnout. She also needed time to finish an assignment for her company director's course, so she resigned. ([01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=118) [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=269))

**Q: How did she plan financially for quitting without a job?**
A: She had always kept a savings net after being made redundant in mining twice before, and she budgeted about six months to find a new role. ([05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=336) [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415))

**Q: How long did her job search take after the break?**
A: She applied for 30-odd roles and had three or four interviews. The role she got came quickly and the employer wanted her to start soon, which cut her break short. ([07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=470) [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=565))

**Q: How can I reflect on what job I want next during a career break?**
A: Pamela used ideal-job quizzes, pros and cons lists, personality analyses and performance feedback. What helped most was asking trusted people about her strengths and development areas. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793) [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823))

**Q: How do you prevent burnout after coming back to work?**
A: Pamela reaches out earlier for help and takes deliberate mini breaks, such as weekends away from phone and computer. She follows a colleague who takes a mental health long weekend every couple of Fridays. ([17:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1054) [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1150))

**Q: What is a sabbatical mindset?**
A: The host's term for bringing the break feeling back into work through mini breaks. Pamela agrees: she has learned to disconnect enough in a long weekend that she no longer feels she is owed a longer break. ([19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1207))

**Q: What would Pamela do on another sabbatical?**
A: She would not pivot her career again. She would pursue her hobby of wild orchid hunting, write a book about it as a citizen scientist, and travel around Australia. ([21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1264))


### Passage: Why she resigned close to burnout in 2015 [01:43–03:22, 254 words]

Note (AI): Explains the takeover, the three roles and the burnout that triggered her resignation, and why people often wait until they are near burnout.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=103):
> Sure. Well, back in 2015, I'd been about 20 years into mining at that point, and I'd, pretty much reached many of the goals that I'd wanted to in mining. So I had been thinking about what would be next. The driver for actually taking a break, though, was I'd been through a takeover of the mine I was working on, another company. I was actually holding down three roles and getting close to burnout and realized I didn't have the support, needed to be able to continue and thought, well, this is it. I'll quit. I'll take time off to think about what I really want to do and how to get there. So that precipitated my resigning in what was the middle of one of the mining downturns, but I had sufficient confidence in myself to do it anyway. Yeah,

Petro du Pisani, host [02:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=160):
> it's amazing how, and I've heard this from many people, that you have to get so close to burnout before you decide you're going to take the break. So I'm wondering why that is.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173):
> I think it's, it's being comfortable. You know, you get into a comfort zone, you do what, you know, you can do, you build on past successes, and it's quite scary to take the next step in making the change. For me, recognizing that I was getting close to burnout meant that I could now give myself permission to make that, to stop and to make the change, which was an interesting observation for myself at the time.


### Passage: What actually happened during the break [07:50–09:46, 316 words]

Note (AI): Compares the plan with reality: the director's course, a solo trip, deliberate job hunting for broader roles, and a faster-than-expected job offer.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=470):
> It did turn out to be a little different, I must admit. I got the assignment done, which was fantastic, so I graduated from the company director's course, and that was step one in my grand plan of, of making a change in my career. I took some time out to reflect on things and journal a little, but I'm a very impatient person, so that didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I did go on that fantastic holiday to Cairns and the Great Barrier Reef off by myself on an adventure, and, that was awesome. just spent a week in I remember it was the middle of winter. It was snowing in New South Wales and I was in tropical Cairns in a sundress. It was just awesome. And it felt really good to get away from everything on my own. But when I got back, I realized, well, there was going to be quite a lot of work to do in terms of, job hunting. But it was very deliberate because I knew I was using this time to change what I wanted to do. And what I wanted was to work more broadly than in mining. I knew that I needed to diversify my skill set. And so I was looking for very different types of roles, which, you know, meant that it could take a very long time to find it, because I was not what people were looking for. I had to sell my skills. And It actually went a lot faster than I expected. I mean, I did apply for 30-odd roles and had about three or four interviews, but the role I actually got happened very quickly, and they wanted me to start rather soon as well, which meant that the other half of my holiday plans had to go awry, which was a pity.


### Passage: Lessons on self-esteem and warning signs [10:23–12:28, 297 words]

Note (AI): Describes transferable skills as the goal, how burnout eroded her self-esteem, and nurturing herself as the main lesson.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [10:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=623):
> exactly, because some of the things, well, okay, I knew that I didn't want to be purely technical, and I wanted to be much broader in my set of experiences that I built up, because the goal I was working towards was moving out of the mining industry into another industry. What that other was, was an unknown, but I knew that I had to develop transferable skills, and I was very interested in technology and science, so I knew it would be a science-based organization. I didn't really spend too much time on what I didn't want, apart from knowing that I didn't want to burn myself out again. What did you learn from that three months of taking a break? I suppose rely on my previous experience more. In the time leading up to, to taking the time off, I was actually, I suppose, mentally more anguished because I was suffering a lack of self-esteem and trying to keep on top of everything and not having the support to do so. And I think that erosion of self-esteem went deeper than I expected because the relief from not having to do that was fantastic. I could build myself up to my usual levels of, of self-confidence and self-reliance. And it made me realize that I should never get to that point again to un, you know, understand what the warning signs were and to, to take time out and nurture myself more. So I think the nurturing is mostly what I got out of it. And remembering That I have the ability to make changes and, be more adventurous. So what do you wish you'd done more of on your break? I do wish I'd taken more holiday time than spent more time job hunting.


### Passage: How she reflected and gathered feedback [13:13–14:26, 185 words]

Note (AI): A concrete set of reflection activities: quizzes, pros and cons, personality analyses, performance feedback and asking trusted people about her strengths.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793):
> So, for me, it, it looks like a lot of answering questions of what I like my ideal job to be, you know, there's quizzes out there. Pros and cons of looking at different roles that I come across, whether they interested me or not. Revisiting some of the personality analyses, I guess you would call them. Things like you had Myers-Briggs I'd done ages ago, and any feedback I got from performance reviews. But also, I spent a bit of time asking people whom I was close to, or whose opinion mattered to me, what they thought my strengths were, and my areas of development, and I think I got the most out of that, actually asking people what they thought, and sort of comparing that feedback to what I thought of myself, and Directions I can go. What was the most useful piece of advice you got? I guess throughout it all, what helped me a lot was how much those people I reached out to were prepared to take time out to talk to me and to support me in the process.


### Passage: Pivot to nuclear and lessons carried forward [15:05–16:38, 231 words]

Note (AI): Shows how the break fed a deliberate pivot to the nuclear industry and the three lessons she applies at work and with mentees.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [15:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=905):
> your current workspace? I guess to continue the story, I did eventually leave mining in a short period of time, and I moved into the nuclear industry, and that pivot from mining To a different industry was very deliberate, as I said. It's something that career break gave me time to think about and to chart out in terms of goals and possible steps and how I could build the skills to make that career pivot. And I use the word pivot very deliberately because it was something I, I now use when I chat to my mentees in STEM who are also looking at how they can chart their way through their careers. You know, be able to provide them some advice in that it's not necessarily a straight line. There are times you deviate, there are times you deliberately head off in a different direction. So, you know, that's one aspect that I take forward. The other is very much about taking care of myself and ensuring that when I'm doing too much that I start unpacking it and Focusing in on what I can do and, and what I can put off during that time. finally, oh yes, to take those holiday breaks when I can and go for it because you never know when something else is going to happen and you have to change plans again.


### Passage: Mini breaks during COVID and the sabbatical mindset [17:32–20:30, 430 words]

Note (AI): Shows how she spotted burnout signs returning during COVID and used deliberate mini breaks instead of waiting for a long sabbatical.

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [17:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1052):
> I have, yes. And it's, you know, it's taught me to, to reach out earlier to ask for help, and if help's not forthcoming, then to make some, you know, further decisions on what I do and don't do. It's interesting because during the COVID pandemic, it got to a point where it was starting to feel similar, where it was constant, constant work because, you know, running a nuclear reactor and nuclear medicine production for Australia meant we were constantly on as a, an essential service. And with not being able to get away, because there were also very strict restrictions as to where you could move, you know, within like five kilometers of your home and so on. that sense of being restricted also weighed me down. And I realized, like, I'm starting to feel like I did back then, around about the time when I thought I should take a break. So I started doing these mini breaks, you know, a, a weekend with not looking at the computer or the phone, and just very deliberately doing something different. Because I'd learned the importance of being mentally switched off and having a, a refresher that way. So, you know, that is something that, helped me through that timeframe, and which continues now. I actually have a very, good example that I follow in my workplace of a colleague who takes a, he calls it a, a mental health break every couple of Fridays. He takes the time off to have a long weekend. And I thought, that's actually a really sensible thing to do. And so that's been one of my learnings about taking care of myself to, be able to do what I need to do work-wise and support my teams and in the, what is quite a complex environment.

Petro du Pisani, host [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183):
> I have this concept which I call the sabbatical mindset. And it almost sounds like these mini breaks and mental health breaks are part of taking your sabbatical mindset back into the workplace with you and to maintain that break feeling

Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest [20:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1200):
> even in between work. Absolutely. You were saying earlier, I've owed myself three months, somewhere down the line. I actually don't feel I owe myself that anymore because I've been taking the time deliberately. You know, it may not be a long period of time, but I feel that even if I take a, a long weekend, that I am, I've learned how to disconnect enough to make it count. So, yes, I, I think, you know, I would call that a sabbatical mindset, certainly.


### Quotes

> "I think it's, it's being comfortable. You know, you get into a comfort zone,"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173)

> "recognizing that I was getting close to burnout meant that I could now give myself permission to make that, to stop and to make the change,"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=189)

> "I could rely on the fact that I've always had a savings net for situations like these, having previously been made redundant in mining twice before, so. You know, you learn from that."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=419)

> "It was snowing in New South Wales and I was in tropical Cairns in a sundress. It was just awesome."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=511)

> "What I wasn't prepared for was emotionally how much that could affect your way of thinking, but also how liberating that could be as well."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [12:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=777)

> "there's a lot of people out there who actually care about you. And you only really realize that once you look away from work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=867)

> "it's not necessarily a straight line. There are times you deviate, there are times you deliberately head off in a different direction."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=958)

> "to take those holiday breaks when I can and go for it because you never know when something else is going to happen"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=990)

> "I've learned how to disconnect enough to make it count."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [20:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1222)

> "to get to talk about what I call my career pivots more than my career break, because the break was far too short."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · [23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1410)


### Claims

> "She founded Women in Mining South Africa in 2010 and was recognized in the inaugural Top 100 Global Women in Mining in 2013."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career pivot from mining · [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=61)

> "Well, I am currently working in Australia's only nuclear reactor at an organization called ANSTO. It's been quite a change from working mining previously."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [01:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=78)

> "Well, back in 2015, I'd been about 20 years into mining at that point, and I'd, pretty much reached many of the goals that I'd wanted to in mining. So I had been thinking about what would be next."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [01:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=104)

> "The driver for actually taking a break, though, was I'd been through a takeover of the mine I was working on, another company. I was actually holding down three roles and getting close to burnout and realized I didn't have the support, needed to be able to continue and thought, well, this is it."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=118)

> "So that precipitated my resigning in what was the middle of one of the mining downturns, but I had sufficient confidence in myself to do it anyway."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [02:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=147)

> "I think it's, it's being comfortable. You know, you get into a comfort zone, you do what, you know, you can do, you build on past successes, and it's quite scary to take the next step in making the change."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [02:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=173)

> "For me, recognizing that I was getting close to burnout meant that I could now give myself permission to make that, to stop and to make the change, which was an interesting observation for myself at the time."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [03:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=188)

> "What precipitated stopping at the time, or resigning at the time, was I needed to complete an assignment for my company director's course. And with doing the three roles on the mind, I just did not have time to do so, so I'm okay."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=269)

> "So I thought it would take me about six months or so, and I planned out those six months in terms of getting my assignment done in the first couple of weeks, taking some time to plan how I wanted to approach job hunting and, and to apply for roles at the same time."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [05:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=336)

> "But from a time off perspective, I wanted to spend more time on some of my hobbies, which was photography at that time, and to explore Australia, having, I think we'd, we'd been in Australia for about three years then,"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=354)

> "But I guess from a planning perspective, I could rely on the fact that I've always had a savings net for situations like these, having previously been made redundant in mining twice before, so."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [06:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=415)

> "I got the assignment done, which was fantastic, so I graduated from the company director's course, and that was step one in my grand plan of, of making a change in my career."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=473)

> "I took some time out to reflect on things and journal a little, but I'm a very impatient person, so that didn't work out as well as I thought it would."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [08:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=486)

> "I did go on that fantastic holiday to Cairns and the Great Barrier Reef off by myself on an adventure, and, that was awesome."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [08:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=495)

> "And what I wanted was to work more broadly than in mining. I knew that I needed to diversify my skill set. And so I was looking for very different types of roles, which, you know, meant that it could take a very long time to find it, because I was not what people were looking for. I had to sell my skills."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [08:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=536)

> "I mean, I did apply for 30-odd roles and had about three or four interviews, but the role I actually got happened very quickly, and they wanted me to start rather soon as well,"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [09:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=565)

> "Yes. Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny how, when you go through a, a very, very brutal restructure or a, you know, very inhumane way of working, you have this long list of things that you don't want anymore."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=591)

> "but I knew that I had to develop transferable skills, and I was very interested in technology and science, so I knew it would be a science-based organization. I didn't really spend too much time on what I didn't want, apart from knowing that I didn't want to burn myself out again."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [10:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=646)

> "I was actually, I suppose, mentally more anguished because I was suffering a lack of self-esteem and trying to keep on top of everything and not having the support to do so. And I think that erosion of self-esteem went deeper than I expected because the relief from not having to do that was fantastic."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=682)

> "And it made me realize that I should never get to that point again to un, you know, understand what the warning signs were and to, to take time out and nurture myself more. So I think the nurturing is mostly what I got out of it."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=713)

> "I do wish I'd taken more holiday time than spent more time job hunting."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=744)

> "I'd say the depth of not knowing. You know, intellectually, I knew that there was going to be a level of uncertainty. What I wasn't prepared for was emotionally how much that could affect your way of thinking, but also how liberating that could be as well."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [12:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=768)

> "So, for me, it, it looks like a lot of answering questions of what I like my ideal job to be, you know, there's quizzes out there. Pros and cons of looking at different roles that I come across, whether they interested me or not."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=793)

> "But also, I spent a bit of time asking people whom I was close to, or whose opinion mattered to me, what they thought my strengths were, and my areas of development, and I think I got the most out of that, actually asking people what they thought, and sort of comparing that feedback to what I thought of myself,"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=823)

> "I guess throughout it all, what helped me a lot was how much those people I reached out to were prepared to take time out to talk to me and to support me in the process."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=851)

> "there's a lot of people out there who actually care about you. And you only really realize that once you look away from work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-reflection during a break · [14:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=867)

> "It's something that career break gave me time to think about and to chart out in terms of goals and possible steps and how I could build the skills to make that career pivot."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Career pivot from mining · [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=926)

> "You know, be able to provide them some advice in that it's not necessarily a straight line. There are times you deviate, there are times you deliberately head off in a different direction."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=956)

> "The other is very much about taking care of myself and ensuring that when I'm doing too much that I start unpacking it and Focusing in on what I can do and, and what I can put off during that time."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=972)

> "to take those holiday breaks when I can and go for it because you never know when something else is going to happen and you have to change plans again."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [16:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=990)

> "And it's, you know, it's taught me to, to reach out earlier to ask for help, and if help's not forthcoming, then to make some, you know, further decisions on what I do and don't do."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [17:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1054)

> "It's interesting because during the COVID pandemic, it got to a point where it was starting to feel similar, where it was constant, constant work because, you know, running a nuclear reactor and nuclear medicine production for Australia meant we were constantly on as a, an essential service."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [17:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1068)

> "So I started doing these mini breaks, you know, a, a weekend with not looking at the computer or the phone, and just very deliberately doing something different. Because I'd learned the importance of being mentally switched off and having a, a refresher that way."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1120)

> "I actually have a very, good example that I follow in my workplace of a colleague who takes a, he calls it a, a mental health break every couple of Fridays. He takes the time off to have a long weekend."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1150)

> "I have this concept which I call the sabbatical mindset. And it almost sounds like these mini breaks and mental health breaks are part of taking your sabbatical mindset back into the workplace with you and to maintain that break feeling"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1183)

> "I actually don't feel I owe myself that anymore because I've been taking the time deliberately. You know, it may not be a long period of time, but I feel that even if I take a, a long weekend, that I am, I've learned how to disconnect enough to make it count."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Sabbatical mindset and mini breaks · [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1207)

> "This time if I took a sabbatical, it would be more about doing a few things I've not had time for in the day-to-day, and this is to pursue one of my passions with my hobby, which is wild orchid hunting and writing a book about it."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Burnout and sabbatical · [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1264)

> "I mentor a lot of PhDs in particular who are facing a change from being in a academic environment to potentially moving into the industry environment."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [22:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1324)

> "And I feel that the time I've had when I deliberately made a change myself helps provide me with some empathy for what they're going through"
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [22:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1336)

> "Yes, most definitely. I think it makes you a better manager as well."
> — Pamela Naidoo-Ameglio, guest · topic: Mentoring and empathy · [23:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1521193_high.mp3#t=1386)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Burnout as a catalyst: Pamela's journey to a career pivot. Episode 11 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Pamela Naidoo-Amegio, an executive leader and geoscientist. Pamela shares her journey of taking a sabbatical in 2015 after nearly burning out. Pamela reflects on her reasons for the break, the gap between her expectations and reality, and the transformative lessons learned. Pamela used the time for self-reflection, pursuing hobbies, and ultimately pivoting her career from mining to the nuclear industry. She highlights the importance of self-care, recognising burnout, and working breaks into her work-life to maintain balance and foster personal growth. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #036 Rest, Reset, and Recharge | Sas Wessels

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/036-rest-reset-and-recharge/
- Date: 2024-10-30 (as at 2024-10-30)
- Guest: Sas Wessels
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Sabbatical after restructuring, Facing financial fears, Planning a career break, Corporate identity and social pressure, Fear to opportunity mindset, Family and work balance, Consulting and further study
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1497284
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3

### About the guest: Sas Wessels

- mechanical engineer and business improvement professional
- Mechanical engineer with an MBA and over twenty-five years of mining industry experience; worked in operations at De Beers and in business improvement and project management at AngloGold Ashanti and Kumba Iron Ore; registered professional engineer.

In their own words:

> "matriculated in Freiburg and then, got a bursary with, with Anglo American to go and study mechanical engineering." [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=95)

> "started with the beers at Cullinan, moved through the ranks, got a, the government certificate of competency, the ticket, moved to Venetia, spent a few years there," [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=121)

> "and then moved to Anglo Gold Ashanti, and firstly into procurement, and then later on in business improvement, and then on to, on to Kumba for the last ten years, mostly in business improvement and the last little bit in technology and, data analytics." [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=133)

> "So what I have done is I have registered the company and I am, you know, I have started a bit of consulting on, call it on the side, but because it's not permanent yet full-time, so doing a bit of consulting." [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=684)

> "I've also started the study, so I'm doing a master's in philosophy in business management, corporate strategy at Gibbs." [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=704)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with Sas Wessels, a mining-industry mechanical engineer and business improvement professional, about a sabbatical that followed repeated company restructures. Sas explains that the break began as something forced on him and became a choice after about a year of planning. He links his fear around money to his father losing farms to debt. He describes his planning model, the first months of the break, consulting and a master's, social pressure around identity, family dynamics, and his hope to replace a fear mindset with an opportunity mindset.

**Key ideas**

- Sas says the sabbatical started as something he was forced into through a restructure and ended as a deliberate choice. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=180) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=191) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=227))
- Sas traces his risk aversion to his father losing farms to debt, and calls the sabbatical an exercise in facing his fears. ([05:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=302) [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=356) [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=364) [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=401) [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=403))
- Sas compares corporate work to a drug and leaving to rehab, and says the hardest part is finding a different identity. ([19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1158) [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1177) [19:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1179) [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1266))
- Sas says much of the pressure he felt was social, because people define you by what you do. ([20:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1243) [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1250))
- Sas argues the main value of the break is changing how he operates, moving from a fear mindset to an opportunity mindset. ([23:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1403) [25:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1531) [25:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1531) [32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1963))
- Petro argues that deciding to leave removed her fear of losing her job and let her true self show up at work. ([25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1551) [26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1561) [26:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1581))
- Both say a break changes you, and Petro says you return with a different view of who you will work for. ([14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=899) [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=904) [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1870) [33:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1986))

**Sas's sabbatical options model** ([05:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=302) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=430) [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=451))

1. Explore starting his own small business and doing some consulting.
2. Consider starting something completely new, such as studying something new and changing direction.
3. Keep open the option of eventually going back into the formal industry.
4. Underneath these, work through a list of things he never had time for.

**Lessons**

- Sas's experience suggests a break forced by restructuring can become a chosen one after time spent thinking and planning. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=180) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=227))
- Petro chose not to fill her calendar back to back, leaving time to be bored and see what emerges. ([13:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=834) [14:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=850))
- Sas advises returning to work only for something that is right, not out of anxiety, social pressure or insecurity. ([29:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1761) [30:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1832))
- Sas suggests a sabbatical can serve as a rehearsal for retirement, helping you work out what you want to spend time on. ([16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1006))
- Sas notes a partner's stable income eased the financial pressure and gave him room to think. ([29:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1781) [31:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1886))

**Who it's for:** Mid-career corporate professionals, especially in mining or engineering, who face restructures or are weighing a career break and worry about financial security, identity or returning to work. Also useful for dual-career couples considering how a break shifts family roles.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Sas studied mechanical engineering on an Anglo American bursary and started at De Beers at Cullinan. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=95) [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=121))
- Sas spent his last ten years at Kumba, mostly in business improvement, finishing in technology and data analytics. ([02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=133))
- Sas is doing a master's in philosophy in business management, corporate strategy at GIBS, running until November next year. ([11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=704) [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=731))
- Sas says his father lost farms bought with debt when debt servicing became too big. ([05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=356))
- Sas broke two ribs on the first stage of Wines to Wales and did not finish it. ([13:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=795))
- Sas says he had been working for 25 years before the break. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=586))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why did Sas Wessels take a sabbatical?**
A: Sas says he went through restructures at every company he worked for. In the latest round he took the opportunity and left. It started as something he was forced into and became a choice after about a year of thinking and planning. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=180) [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=191) [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=227))

**Q: How did Sas plan how to spend his career break?**
A: He used a model with three directions: consulting through his own business, starting something completely new, or going back into formal industry. Underneath these sat a list of things he never had time for. He calls much of his planning defensive. ([04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=246) [05:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=302) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=430) [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=451))

**Q: Why was leaving his job so scary for Sas?**
A: His father lost farms when debt servicing became too big. Sas says that left him with an issue around financial security and made him risk averse, so he sees the sabbatical as facing his fears. ([05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=356) [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=364) [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=401))

**Q: What is it like in the first weeks after leaving corporate?**
A: Sas says he felt a bit lost in the first week after handing in his laptop and dealing with admin. A holiday soon after was the first in a long time without checking emails. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=586) [10:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=602) [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=647))

**Q: Why is it hard to let go of a corporate identity?**
A: Sas compares work to a drug and leaving to rehab. He describes social pressure because people ask what you do and that defines you, and says finding a comfortable new identity is the hardest part. ([19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1158) [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1177) [20:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1243) [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1266))

**Q: What is Sas doing during his sabbatical?**
A: He registered a company and started consulting on the side. He began a master's in philosophy in business management, corporate strategy at GIBS, running until November next year. He also spent time with his daughter and did a mountain bike stage race. ([11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=684) [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=704) [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=731) [22:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1342) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1355))

**Q: How does a sabbatical change the way you return to work?**
A: Sas says that if he returns to corporate he will go back as a different person, with an opportunity mindset rather than a fear mindset. Petro says you return with a different picture of who you will work for. ([23:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1403) [24:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1496) [25:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1531) [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1870))

**Q: How did Sas's family react to his career break?**
A: Parents were worried at first, but family were supportive. His daughter told people he got fired, yet does not want him to go back. He thinks his wife would want him to think carefully rather than jump back in. ([08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=538) [28:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1718) [29:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1761) [29:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1781) [30:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1832))


### Passage: Father losing the farms and the sabbatical model [05:02–07:28, 484 words]

Note (AI): Sas links his risk aversion to his father losing farms to debt, frames the sabbatical as facing fears, and lays out the options model he planned around.

Sas Wessels, guest [05:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=302):
> So, yeah, so I guess to take a step back, I'll get back to the model, but maybe to take a step back, you've got to understand, I guess one always has to understand yourself, to understand the journey that you go through. So in my life, so I said, you know, we lived on a farm and we moved to town when I was about 14 years old. So the context behind that is my dad farmed and did really well on the farm, and in the early, late 70s, early 80s, the farming was really good, and he went and bought two additional farms, so expanded the farming business. Then came the late eighties, early nineties, and you know, now that I'm, I'm bigger and I understand something about economics, I appreciate the predicament they were in, right? So the interest rate climbed to plus twenty percent in those years. Now you can imagine if the interest rates today go to over twenty percent, half the people in this town would lose their houses, right? Your, your mortgage payments would, double up, et cetera, et cetera. So, so he eventually also lost the farms because of the fact that he had bought those two farms with, with debt and the, and the debt servicing just became too big. So for me, that was quite a big event in my life, and, it left me, I guess, with a big Issue around financial security and security in general, and also made me quite risk averse, right? So you can imagine with that at my core, leaving my job would have been quite dramatic for me, right? And it was. So for me, this was not, you know, that's probably why it wasn't something I would have ever voluntarily just thought of doing and then gone ahead and done. So to a certain extent, that's probably a little bit of the context around my sabbatical, in a way, I would probably label it as an exercise in facing my fears, which is interesting, right? Because that's what it is for me. And I always knew it was going to be that because I know myself. So I had to think a little bit about what I was going to do during the sabbatical. And having spoken to a lot of people, they said, look, you've got to keep yourself busy, etc. So anyway, that brought me to the model. So I thought about, you know, three areas that I would investigate. One would be starting My own little business and, you know, doing a bit of consulting, so not necessarily just getting back into, into work. A second one I toyed with the idea, and I haven't done much further with it, is starting something completely new, right? Moving into a completely different direction. So starting, studying something new, becoming something new, you know.


### Passage: Leaving corporate: lost first week, then a real holiday [09:46–11:01, 275 words]

Note (AI): A concrete account of the practical and emotional first days after leaving a long corporate career.

Sas Wessels, guest [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=586):
> It was interesting. So I, for 25 years or ever since I can remember, I've not, not worked. And even when you're on holiday, you are working, you know, the, the emails are there, the phone goes with you. You never really switch off. It was quite dramatic, honestly. You know, I remember when I handed in the laptop and the email stopped working on the phone and suddenly I, I didn't have a laptop that was of good enough standard to just carry on. So, so I felt a bit lost, honestly, in the first week. The admin that you've got to go through, you've got to change all your email addresses at all of these places where you've used your company email address simply because you don't want to manage two inboxes all the time. So the admin was quite hectic. I felt a bit lost in the first week, to be honest, until I had gotten a laptop set up and, you know, gotten myself almost to a place where I felt a bit more comfortable with, with the structure. And then it became a bit easier. But we were fortunate. We went on holiday about a week after I left. And that made it a bit easier because, and in fact, that was a very Very nice experience because for the first time in a very long time, I took a holiday without worrying, without looking at emails in the evenings or what's happening back at work or, you know, is there something I need to manage, and you could just take a holiday, and that was, that was very nice.


### Passage: Work as addiction and losing a corporate identity [19:18–21:34, 441 words]

Note (AI): Sas and Petro discuss work as a drug, social pressure at a braai, and the difficulty of finding an identity beyond a job title.

Sas Wessels, guest [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1158):
> Yes, look, a lot of that resonates with me, right? A lot of that absolutely resonates with me. I guess one always misses the people, right? So I enjoyed that of my career, you know, enjoy working with people and enjoy, I guess, generally doing what I did. But you do get into a groove. I think that it's almost a little bit, I mean, I've used the analogy, work becomes a little bit like a drug. So leaving it was almost going on a rehab from it, because it sort of keeps you busy and it fills up your calendar. There's always things to do, you know, there's always more things to do than the time that you have. And you don't really get to ask these questions around what do you really want to do and You know, what would life be without this corporate job? So to a certain extent, it's almost like breaking with an addiction. So to a certain extent, it felt like that's what I had to do, is completely break the cycle so that you can just have different experience, think differently about things. So yeah, a lot of what you've said resonates with me as well.

Petro du Pisani, host [20:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1221):
> Yeah, I mean, I felt like my whole identity was entangled with the company because I'm head of this department of this big company. It somehow made me a different person or a better person. And it's not actually. You know, you have to try and find out who you are without that title.

Sas Wessels, guest [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1240):
> But it is interesting, you know, further to that, I find that a lot of the pressure that I felt as I started the sabbatical was actually social pressure. Because if you go to a braai, people normally ask you two things, what's your name and then what you do, right? And what you do defines you. So it is breaking with an identity because you Become who you are in that corporate, you know, corporate environment and in that identity. And I think the most difficult part to get over is, is, is finding a different identity and being comfortable with that different identity. And I think it's more me as the person that feels the discomfort. I'm not too sure it's a big issue for the rest of the people, but it does feel like it is, right? For me, it feels like it is, you know, who am I if I'm not, you know, this person that works and, you know, and I'm busy, et cetera, et cetera, and I'm the head of, exactly as you said, of a department.


### Passage: Next steps and shifting from fear to opportunity [23:23–25:51, 544 words]

Note (AI): Sas sets out his plans for consulting, studies and the list, and names the main gain: returning without operating out of fear.

Sas Wessels, guest [23:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1403):
> So I think what I want to do a bit more of is, you know, I'll follow through with the studies and that'll come in almost like spells of being very busy and then spells of not being that busy. And in the spells that I'm not that busy, probably take the consulting a little bit more serious and, you know, do a bit more aggressive, call it marketing, although, you know, it's more me that I'm marketing, but reach out to more people and get that done a little bit because I've got a lot of experience and, you know, you don't want to let that go to waste either. I think I can make a big difference. So probably do a little bit more of that and then be a little bit more deliberate also in filling up with those things that I haven't gotten to. You know, all those little things that I said I was going to do more of, I think I do need to do more of those, even if it's just sorting out the garage, getting them sorted out, right? It's something I have to get done, but you've got to sit down and do it. So it's on the list, but it never gets done. It always gets bumped down. The pecking order because of all the studies and all the other things. So in the time left, I think I'll, I'll start being a bit more deliberate in planning more time for the consulting to, to, to really take off, you know, plan a bit more time for those, those other things, and starting to think about whether I want to enter, you know, business again. Because I've also said this to one of, one of the guys that finished off with me, to a certain extent, we also are who we are, right? So, you know, some people will, will, will, you know, completely change their careers and, and, and probably like you are, you know, and go into a different direction completely. In my case, you know, I, I may or I may not, I, I may actually just go back to a corporate, but I think if I do go back, I will go back as a different person. So I may go back to, to, to corporate because I, I also appreciate that because of my background, I think I operated out of fear a lot. Right, fear of losing your job or fear of not being good enough as a manager or as a head of a department or not doing enough or not impressing your boss enough, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That's just, I, I grew up in corporate and I think if I do go back, it will be with less of that fear, which I think is a really good thing, right? More of an opportunity mindset rather than a fear mindset. And if that is what I got out of this sabbatical, then I think I would have gotten a lot out of it. That pressure builds up to always want to do more and be more involved or improve on your performance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It ends up being negative.


### Passage: Deciding not to apply and bringing the true self [25:51–28:25, 505 words]

Note (AI): Petro describes how deciding to leave during a restructure removed her fear; Sas responds on insecure overachievers and mindset change.

Petro du Pisani, host [25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1551):
> Yeah, no, I can completely identify with that. It was actually quite liberating when I'd made the decision that I was going to leave. It was quite early on in the process, actually. I actually knew from the beginning I wasn't going to apply for any of the positions and it freaked a lot of people out that I wasn't applying for anything. But from that moment, That conscious moment decision that I wasn't going to go through all of the politics and, drama of the restructure, I already became a different person then. That fear of losing your job just disappeared because I wasn't going to stay. And then the true you actually shows up. it was quite interesting. I mean, I saw it in the clothes that I was wearing. Instead of wearing my very dark corporate clothes, I went I like colors. I'm going to be wearing colors now. This is where I am. I'm a person who likes to wear colors. So it, it just changed, already changed my mindset over there. I've, I already started not being the corporate person. And I already said no to stuff where people said, you should do this. I went, no, that's not the right thing to do. And I think for the company, that's not the right thing to do. And where in the past you would have been too scared to voice that opinion and say no, you know, and, and you would just say what the boss told you to do type of thing. Exactly. And I think I, I like what you're saying that you'll take that back into that whole mindset, you'll take that back into if you decide to go into a corporate Take you back into work, the true you, not the one that just follows instructions. Yes.

Sas Wessels, guest [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1643):
> Does that make sense? No, absolutely. And look what you've said now, you know, it resonates with me as well. And I think the interesting thing is you would probably have been way more successful if you had brought that mindset, you know, to work earlier, the mindset of, you know, the fear being gone and bringing the full you, et cetera, et cetera. So for me, that's probably the biggest piece that I think I'm going to get out of this, out of this sabbatical. I may end up actually following through with the consulting piece and not getting back into corporate, and that's also fine. But if I do, it has to be as a different person with a bit of a different mindset and not, in my case, as you've now rightly also said, not operating as much out of fear or my wife always says, our generation or we are, you know, insecure overachievers. And that's typically it, right? Always feel like you're not doing enough and probably doing way more. More than, than, than anybody else is. So I think changing that fear mindset into an opportunity mindset would be, would be something valuable.


### Passage: A spouse's view: flexibility, salary and returning right [29:21–30:56, 320 words]

Note (AI): Shows how a dual-career couple weighs flexibility against income, and the advice not to rush back out of anxiety.

Sas Wessels, guest [29:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1761):
> That's very interesting. So I think she would probably say, You know, me having more flexibility, helps her a lot because that just frees her up to be able to, you know, travel for work or, you know, without having a worry about who's going to take care of Nikki or how's this going to, going to work out. I think for us as a couple, this is more normal. This is healthier than it used to be. I mean, both parents, you know, pushing very hard at corporate careers and pushing the careers very hard is, is difficult. It, it has been difficult for us. we've managed it, but, you know, with, with the au pair and, grandmother and my grandma and grandpa and, and so on and so on helping out. But I think it has been difficult and I, and I think this, this has sort of made it easier. But at the same time, you know, there's the realities of, of, of life, you know, it is, it is nice to, to get the salary every month, right? So, you know, that allows you to have the elaborate holidays and all these other things that you can, that you can do then. So there is that pressure. But if I, if I honestly had to ask her, I think she, she would towards the side that I shouldn't be over eager to get back to it too quickly. And also if you go back, get back into something that is right, as opposed to just get back into something simply because you're getting anxious or you feel the social pressure or you feel insecure, not having a job or whatever those, you know, those things that you make up in your mind are, because they are there. I think she honestly would want me to think more about it rather than just jump back into it.


### Quotes

> "I come from a small town called Freiburg, used to be in the Northern Cape, about 200 kilometers north of Kimberley. It's now in the Northwest Province. So it was actually quite nice to, to go back there. I grew up on a farm. we lived on a farm until I was about 14 years old and then moved to town."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [01:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=72)

> "Married, to Karina, have one child, she's turning eleven now on the 29th of August, so that's also, also good and interesting, and, yeah, that's a, that's a short summary, I guess."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=148)

> "I would probably label it as an exercise in facing my fears,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=403)

> "So I find that our parents, or my mother and Karina's parents, they come out of a slightly different era, I guess. So they were very, generally very worried, I think, at first … But very interesting, people battle to get their heads around that, right? So, so, so I think our, my, our parents were slightly worried because it's not the norm. Generally, though, parents and family have been very supportive. my sister's especially been very supportive and understanding, and I think it's something that's a bit more common these days."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [08:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=497)

> "most guys just envy you. That's straight, that's the reality."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [09:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=576)

> "this experience leaves you as a different person, probably more than it leaves you with having done different things,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=904)

> "one of the things I thought about was that this would be a little bit of a, almost like call it a, a mini experience of what retirement would be like, because I've, I, I heard from a lot of people how dramatic a change that could be, because you've, you've spent this whole life working, working, working, working, and, you know, having calendars filled up and, and, and, and so on, and then suddenly, you know, it all stops, and, and you've almost got no purpose to a certain extent. So, so I always, you know, I was conscious that this would be, an opportunity to experience that to a certain extent, and think Through it and, and, you know, see what it feels like and, and, and, you know, work through it and, and learn from it and set yourself up so that eventually if that retirement does come at the end of your career, you are in a much better space mentally to, to deal with it."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1006)

> "for me to truly discover who I am and what I'm made of, I need to leave this comfortable cocoon of corporate life."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1150)

> "work becomes a little bit like a drug. So leaving it was almost going on a rehab from it,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [19:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1179)

> "You know, you have to try and find out who you are without that title."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1237)

> "if you go to a braai, people normally ask you two things, what's your name and then what you do, right? And what you do defines you."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1250)

> "More of an opportunity mindset rather than a fear mindset."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [25:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1531)

> "our generation or we are, you know, insecure overachievers."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1686)

> "It makes you a different human being at the end of it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [33:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1986)


### Claims

> "matriculated in Freiburg and then, got a bursary with, with Anglo American to go and study mechanical engineering."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Career background · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=95)

> "started with the beers at Cullinan, moved through the ranks, got a, the government certificate of competency, the ticket, moved to Venetia, spent a few years there,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Career background · [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=121)

> "and then moved to Anglo Gold Ashanti, and firstly into procurement, and then later on in business improvement, and then on to, on to Kumba for the last ten years, mostly in business improvement and the last little bit in technology and, data analytics."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Career background · [02:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=133)

> "And probably in my experience, it started off being forced into it a little bit and ended up being something I, I then chose to do."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Sabbatical after restructuring · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=180)

> "It, it sort of was one of those, as you say, company restructurings that I went through in all the companies I worked for. In De Beers, we went through more than one. Anglo Gold Ashanti, more than one. Kumba, more than one."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Sabbatical after restructuring · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=191)

> "It's probably about a, about a year of, of a lot of thinking and a lot of planning and a lot of decisions, and, and that's probably where I ended up making the choice then."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Planning a career break · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=227)

> "So, so I did a lot of planning, but a lot of it was almost, shall I say, defensive planning. So, so I was, I was very worried about, about this break, right?"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Planning a career break · [04:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=246)

> "So, so he eventually also lost the farms because of the fact that he had bought those two farms with, with debt and the, and the debt servicing just became too big."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Facing financial fears · [05:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=356)

> "So for me, that was quite a big event in my life, and, it left me, I guess, with a big Issue around financial security and security in general, and also made me quite risk averse, right?"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Facing financial fears · [06:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=364)

> "in a way, I would probably label it as an exercise in facing my fears, which is interesting, right? Because that's what it is for me."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Facing financial fears · [06:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=401)

> "One would be starting My own little business and, you know, doing a bit of consulting, so not necessarily just getting back into, into work. A second one I toyed with the idea, and I haven't done much further with it, is starting something completely new, right?"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Planning a career break · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=430)

> "And then the third one was, you know, eventually just going back into the formal industry. And at the bottom of it, those were the three sort of directional areas, and at the bottom of it is probably the more interesting piece, and that is the piece where I said, well, there's all these things that I want to do that I never had time for,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Planning a career break · [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=451)

> "So our family now is not that different from any family where one of the parents has got a career in working and the other one doesn't. Ours is just a little bit swapped around."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Family and work balance · [08:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=538)

> "And, and a lot of my friends would say, look, most guys just envy you. That's straight, that's the reality."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Corporate identity and social pressure · [09:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=574)

> "You know, I remember when I handed in the laptop and the email stopped working on the phone and suddenly I, I didn't have a laptop that was of good enough standard to just carry on. So, so I felt a bit lost, honestly, in the first week."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Leaving corporate · [10:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=602)

> "for the first time in a very long time, I took a holiday without worrying, without looking at emails in the evenings or what's happening back at work"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Leaving corporate · [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=647)

> "So what I have done is I have registered the company and I am, you know, I have started a bit of consulting on, call it on the side, but because it's not permanent yet full-time, so doing a bit of consulting."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Consulting and further study · [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=684)

> "I've also started the study, so I'm doing a master's in philosophy in business management, corporate strategy at Gibbs."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Consulting and further study · [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=704)

> "The studies are still until November next year, so there's a, I'm also cautious About, you know, overcooking it because, because I do want to finish that and do it."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Consulting and further study · [12:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=731)

> "So it was the first one that we had finished. We did, last year we did attempt the, wines to Wales, but on the first stage I fell and broke two ribs, so never finished it."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Personal passions · [13:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=795)

> "I was very deliberate about not filling up my Calendar back to back, because I'd come from an environment where my whole day was planned out for me, from five, six in the morning to five, six at night."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Planning a career break · [13:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=834)

> "I actually wanted to have time to just be and to be bored and to see what creatively evolves from not having a filled up calendar."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Planning a career break · [14:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=850)

> "I think a lot of the change actually happens in your head, I guess. It's probably this experience leaves you as a different person, probably more than it leaves you with having done different things, I think."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=899)

> "That has been there, but probably not as, as bad as I had thought it would be, you know? It's, I'd expected it to build up a lot more, I guess."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Facing financial fears · [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=942)

> "one of the things I thought about was that this would be a little bit of a, almost like call it a, a mini experience of what retirement would be like,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Planning a career break · [16:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1006)

> "And it takes an incredible amount of courage and bravery to go, okay, I don't want to do this, and I don't know what I'm going to do next, but I'm going to figure it out."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Corporate identity and social pressure · [18:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1115)

> "I've used the analogy, work becomes a little bit like a drug. So leaving it was almost going on a rehab from it, because it sort of keeps you busy and it fills up your calendar."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Corporate identity and social pressure · [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1177)

> "I find that a lot of the pressure that I felt as I started the sabbatical was actually social pressure. Because if you go to a braai, people normally ask you two things, what's your name and then what you do, right? And what you do defines you."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Corporate identity and social pressure · [20:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1243)

> "And I think the most difficult part to get over is, is, is finding a different identity and being comfortable with that different identity."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Corporate identity and social pressure · [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1266)

> "March was all about just taking a bit of a break, going on a nice holiday, almost decompressing, if you may. April was very nice because I got to spend the time with Nikki, and I was actually very, very busy with that."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Planning a career break · [22:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1342)

> "In May, I started to set up the company and, you know, started to get the, you know, the basics in place so that I could have a vehicle through which to do this consulting."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Consulting and further study · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1355)

> "I may actually just go back to a corporate, but I think if I do go back, I will go back as a different person."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [24:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1496)

> "Right, fear of losing your job or fear of not being good enough as a manager or as a head of a department or not doing enough or not impressing your boss enough, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [25:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1511)

> "More of an opportunity mindset rather than a fear mindset. And if that is what I got out of this sabbatical, then I think I would have gotten a lot out of it."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [25:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1531)

> "I actually knew from the beginning I wasn't going to apply for any of the positions and it freaked a lot of people out that I wasn't applying for anything."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical after restructuring · [26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1561)

> "That fear of losing your job just disappeared because I wasn't going to stay. And then the true you actually shows up."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [26:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1581)

> "I think the interesting thing is you would probably have been way more successful if you had brought that mindset, you know, to work earlier,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1649)

> "or my wife always says, our generation or we are, you know, insecure overachievers. And that's typically it, right? Always feel like you're not doing enough and probably doing way more."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1684)

> "at first she was pretty brutal because she would tell everybody that my dad got fired and he doesn't have a job anymore. So that doesn't help."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Family and work balance · [28:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1718)

> "I think for us as a couple, this is more normal. This is healthier than it used to be. I mean, both parents, you know, pushing very hard at corporate careers and pushing the careers very hard is, is difficult."
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Family and work balance · [29:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1781)

> "And also if you go back, get back into something that is right, as opposed to just get back into something simply because you're getting anxious or you feel the social pressure or you feel insecure, not having a job"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Returning to work · [30:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1832)

> "I think you go back with a very different picture in your mind of who you want to work for and what you are willing to take from them."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Returning to work · [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1870)

> "I've been very blessed and, and very fortunate to, to have Karina that's got a, a solid career and, and, you know, doing well. So, so it does take a little bit of that financial pressure off,"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Family and work balance · [31:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1886)

> "I've come to realize that the value it has in actually changing you and the way you, you, you view yourself and the way you operate"
> — Sas Wessels, guest · topic: Fear to opportunity mindset · [32:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1497284_high.mp3#t=1963)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Moving from a fear mindset to a world of opportunity. Episode 10 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Sas Wessels, a seasoned mechanical engineer and business improvement professional in the mining industry, about his recent sabbatical from corporate life. After years of facing numerous company restructures, Sas shares what led him to take this intentional break, including his initial fears around financial security and the planning that went into it. He describes how the sabbatical is allowing him to explore options like consulting, further studies, and personal passions, shifting his mindset from fear to opportunity. Sas reflects on the transformative impact the experience had on his work-life balance and priorities. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #035 The Re-ignition Pause | Briony Liber

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/035-the-re-ignition-pause/
- Date: 2024-10-28 (as at 2024-10-28)
- Guest: Briony Liber
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Burnout and boundaries, Sabbatical as experimentation, Identity beyond job title, Intentional time and reflection, Career reinvention into coaching, Putting yourself first
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1495830?v=1
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3

### About the guest: Briony Liber

- career and leadership coach
- Took a sabbatical after 25 years in the corporate world, following burnout. During her break she studied coaching. Afterwards she reinvented herself as a coach and business owner.

In their own words:

> "I have been working as a coach in executive leadership and career coaching for the last eight years." [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=71)

> "And I got to a point where I was responsible for a fairly large team. I was responsible for quite a high billing target. I was traveling all the time. I was trying to do too many things." [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=105)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Part of Petro du Pisani's series on conscious breaks from work. Career and leadership coach Briony Liber describes burning out after a career of overwork, weak boundaries and people-pleasing. She resigned in 2016 without a plan and spent eight or nine months baking, travelling, journaling and completing a coaching course. She then launched her own coaching business. Briony talks about identity beyond a job title, experimenting as a way to learn about yourself, and the habits she uses to avoid burning out again. Her closing message is 'First Love Yourself': take purposeful time out by choice rather than because of burnout.

**Key ideas**

- Briony attributes her burnout to a lifetime of not managing boundaries, people-pleasing and overworking, including training people to disrespect her time. ([01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=92) [01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=92) [02:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=139))
- Briony argues that experimenting through action, not thinking, is the only way to learn what really fits you, as her baking experiment showed. ([14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=887) [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=979) [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1125))
- Briony advises focusing on the life you want and letting work support it, rather than fixing on a specific profession. ([06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=388) [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=480) [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=485))
- Both Briony and Petro describe how their identity was tied to their corporate role and how hard it was to let go of it. ([11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=671) [22:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1346) [24:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1486) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1559))
- Briony believes people deflect and distract themselves with busyness to avoid facing themselves; Petro argues that leaving room for boredom lets creativity spring. ([23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1431) [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1619) [27:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1663))
- Briony observes that highly productive people are the ones most likely to burn out if they do not manage their boundaries. ([34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2041) [35:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2154))
- Briony says that moving towards something is completely different from moving away from something. ([30:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1839))

**Briony's keep-myself-out-of-burnout tactics** ([31:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1869) [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1974))

1. Exercise, sleep and eat healthily.
2. Tap into your support network.
3. Take time out for yourself and play, for example through crafts and painting.
4. Journal a lot.
5. Give yourself more breaks during the day and allow yourself not to finish everything.

**Lessons**

- Briony suggests taking a break by choice, before you reach burnout, rather than needing months just to recover. ([34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2041) [35:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2128) [35:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2139))
- Briony found that testing a fantasy career in practice, like working bakery hours, shows whether it should stay a hobby. ([16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=979) [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1125))
- Briony stresses preparing financially and taking stock of how you will afford time without work. ([12:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=758) [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=890))
- Briony recommends reflecting on what you tolerate in yourself and others that may not be good for you. ([02:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=139) [36:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2168))
- Briony found that being intentional with sabbatical time matters, because time goes quickly and is easily frittered away. ([23:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1381) [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1746))

**Who it's for:** Professionals who feel close to burnout or stuck in a corporate identity, people planning a sabbatical or career break, and anyone thinking about moving from a technical or corporate career into coaching or self-employment.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Briony handed in her resignation in 2016. ([04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=255))
- Briony's sabbatical lasted about eight or nine months. ([21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1301))
- Briony says she has worked as an executive leadership and career coach for eight years. ([01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=71))
- Briony got her first coaching client three hours after posting an advert on Facebook. ([22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1322))
- It took Briony at least a year to eighteen months to find the courage to leave. ([05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=300))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What are signs that I'm burning out at work?**
A: Briony describes going from calm and generous to resentful and quick to anger, having emotional outbursts, crying on the way to work, and seeing that she was tolerating very long hours and training people to disrespect her time. ([01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=92) [02:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=139) [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=176))

**Q: How long does it take to decide to leave a job and take a sabbatical?**
A: Briony says it took her at least a year to eighteen months between knowing she had to leave and actually leaving. She adds that the decision was the hard part and that leaving felt easy once she had made it. ([01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=92) [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=300))

**Q: What should you do during a career break if you have no plan?**
A: Briony had no structure beyond a coaching course. She baked, travelled, read, slept and journaled, and she found that experimenting through action showed her what she missed: working with people and being of service. ([14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=887) [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=890) [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1026) [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1125))

**Q: How do you cope with losing your job title identity on a sabbatical?**
A: Briony recalls calling herself unemployed and seeing the other person walk away. She wishes she had spent more time letting go of her identity and embracing the unknown. Petro says the break was about finding out who she was without the corporate role. ([22:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1346) [24:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1486) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1559))

**Q: How can I avoid burning out again after a break?**
A: Briony relies on exercise, sleep, healthy eating, her support network, time out, play, journaling and more breaks during the day. She admits she has partly burned out again but notices it faster now. ([31:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1869) [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1974))

**Q: What is it like to start a coaching business after corporate?**
A: Briony calls it exciting and terrifying. She got her first client three hours after a Facebook advert, but had to learn to run a business, market and sell herself, and realised how many people in corporate had done those things for her. ([22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1322) [31:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1869) [32:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1921))

**Q: Why do productive people burn out?**
A: Briony argues that most people who burn out are brilliantly productive, and that this productivity pushes them into burnout if they don't manage their boundaries well. ([35:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2154))

**Q: Does a vision board actually help with career change?**
A: Briony made one about six months before resigning, forgot about it, and five years later found she was living exactly what it showed. She uses this to advise clients to focus on the life they want. ([06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=388) [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=447) [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=480))


### Passage: How burnout led Briony to resign [01:32–04:14, 437 words]

Note (AI): Briony's first-hand account of the warning signs of burnout, the pattern of overwork she noticed, and how a friend's perspective helped her imagine leaving.

Briony Liber, guest [01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=92):
> The simple answer is I burnt out. And the reason I burnt out was that I've had a lifetime of not managing boundaries and people pleasing and overworking. And I got to a point where I was responsible for a fairly large team. I was responsible for quite a high billing target. I was traveling all the time. I was trying to do too many things. And I think the one thing that worked me up was the day I found myself working probably at about eight, nine o'clock in the office, reviewing a report that had been given to me at five o'clock with the request, please review this. It's due at the client by eight o'clock tomorrow morning. And after realizing that this was a pattern, I started to notice my behaviors and I started to notice that I was training people to disrespect my time, and I was tolerating working very long hours, and it really started to give me some insights into the fact that I was burning out quite badly. And that coincided with Probably about a year of me starting to feel like I wasn't who I wanted to be, that I was in quite a rut, that I was starting to lose a sense of my identity, and, and what I mean by that was I'd gone from being kind of calm, reasonable, kind, generous, to being quite resentful, getting angry very quickly, having very little capacity for patience and for people, and really starting to be a person that I didn't like. And at one stage, I went to see my doctor. She did some hormone tests. The results showed that my hormones were all in the wrong place. I was having emotional outbursts a lot, and when I started noticing that I was crying on the way to work most days, I realized that something was wrong. And it took a long time for me to get up the guts to actually make the decision, and it was mostly because I couldn't visualize myself doing anything but what I'd been doing for the twenty years that I was working. And I remember having a conversation with a friend about this, and I was telling her about my career and, and what I was doing, and she gave me her perspective of how, as I was talking, she could visualize me doing twenty different things. And it was that perspective that started this kind of journey towards being brave and starting to visualize myself as somebody different, working in a different way, living my life in a different way.


### Passage: The vision board that came true [06:28–08:10, 294 words]

Note (AI): Shows how Briony imagined her future life before leaving and the life-first advice she now gives her coaching clients.

Briony Liber, guest [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=388):
> So I did a vision board probably about six months before I resigned, and I was fantasizing there about having a really cool computer. So at the time, I thought a kind of Apple Air Mac or whatever they're called was a cool computer, and I fantasized about working in coffee shops and having lots of flexibility, not being at the end of anybody's bad planning and having complete control over my time, choosing who I worked with and what I did and when I did it and where I did it from. Not looking corporate at all to being able to kind of wear a relaxed shirt and jeans or whatever I wanted. It, it was the complete opposite of what I'd been in, and it's aligned a lot more with who I am as a creative person. and I put this vision board together and I had a whole suite of kind of pictures of these sorts of images and some quotes that went with it. And then I put it in a back cupboard, completely forgot about it, and five years later realized actually my vision board is exactly how I'm living my life. And that for me was quite a profound realization that when you start to imagine and you allow yourself to dream and you allow yourself to get out of kind of an emotional rut, how creative you can be and how deliberate you can be in creating the life that you want. and it's something that I say to my coaching clients all the time is stop focusing on the specific profession or career that you want to have. Focus on the life that you want and let your work support that, not the other way around.


### Passage: Baking, travel and discovering coaching [14:47–17:38, 522 words]

Note (AI): A worked example of testing a fantasy career through action, and how that revealed what she actually missed: being of service to people.

Briony Liber, guest [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=887):
> So I don't know that I really had a plan, to be honest. I had cashed out my shares, so I had some money, and my plan was to be on sabbatical until my money ran out. And I didn't have any structure. The only structure I actually had was completing this coaching course that I was doing. So a lot of my time I knew would be spent on the course and doing the course work in between and doing practice coaching sessions and so on. So that, that took up a fair amount of my time, which was great because it gave me a huge amount of opportunity to reflect on myself as well. But around that, I think the first thing I did, cause I'd booked it probably months ago, was do a four-day baking course. And loved that. And one of the things I thought I was going to do was change careers completely and start baking because I love to cook. I love to serve people. I love to be very generous with food. And so I spent the better part of six months baking every single day. And my kitchen kind of got completely taken over. I think at one stage I was baking about thirty chia butter a day. And I was starting to sell them and very quickly realized baking chia butter is not going to pay the bills in the long run. and I think the realization around the realities of baking really came when I was going to go and work in a bakery for a couple weeks to get a feel for it. And, the guy who was helping me with that phoned up and said, right, you'll need to be at the bakery at two o'clock in the morning. And I went, nope. This is gonna kill my love for baking. Let me keep this as a hobby. So that was one of the things I did. I traveled to the States for a couple weeks, spent a lot of time with family there, did some other travel that I'd been wanting to do for ages. Nothing kind of terribly kind of exciting, but just road trips and so on. And I read a lot, I slept a lot, a huge amount in fact, and I spent a lot of time journaling and thinking and noticing, and noticing that what I missed, and that's what I thought baking would fill, was being of service to people. I didn't miss the technical work at all, I didn't miss being a consultant, I didn't miss any part of how I lived, but I missed working with people and being of service. And And it was in that process that I came to the realization that what, what I really wanted to be doing was coaching and mentoring. And in the process of that, I've come to the realization that I don't particularly want to work in a team, but I love working with people. And that, and that's nothing that I'd ever had an insight into when I was working in corporate.


### Passage: Biggest takeaways and letting go of identity [22:26–25:31, 465 words]

Note (AI): Briony names her main lessons about living unconsciously and busyness, and tells how losing her job title unsettled others and herself.

Briony Liber, guest [22:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1346):
> How we all need time to think. How we all arrive, let me not speak for everybody, how unconsciously I was living my life. I remember doing a talk at one stage saying, well, entitled, I slept my way to the top. And And it was really because I felt like... I love that title. It's my title, don't steal it. And it, and it's really because I felt like I was living my life so unconsciously that I was actually asleep. And, and that was the realization for me is how, how we need to be intentional and purposeful in taking time for ourselves and giving ourselves time to think, to reflect, to struggle, to be with ourselves, to play, to potter around, to be bad at things. Because I think we spend so much of our lives trying to be perfect at things that we stop allowing ourselves to experiment. And so that, that really was my biggest takeaway. And I know your next question is going to be, do you still give yourself time? And, and I have to say I've not been great at that over the last couple years, but I'm better at noticing when I need to give myself time and, and then starting to slowly act on that. But I just don't believe any of us give ourselves enough time. We, we deflect, we distract, we get busy because it's easier than actually facing yourself and, and, and being conscious and with what you're struggling with.

Petro du Pisani, host [24:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1444):
> My next question is actually, what do you wish you had done more of in your sabbatical?

Briony Liber, guest [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1453):
> Maybe more playing. So one of the things that came up two days after I left officially, I was having a conversation with somebody, I was at an event, and as people do, the conversation goes to, oh, what do you do? AKA, what's your title? How important are you? And I was so kind of used to saying, oh, I'm a partner in a company, and on paper I'm this important, and I went, no, that's not my answer anymore. I can't use that answer. And so I turned around and said, I'm unemployed. And she looked at me with absolute horror and immediately turned around and went off to speak to somebody else. And, and the reason I'm sharing that is that I wish I'd spent more time letting go of my identity and embracing the unknown, because I, I spent a huge amount of time feeling like I should be doing something. This, this sitting around just being is not okay. I should be busy. And, and being uncomfortable with having time. And it was really only Probably six months in when I started to relax into and breathe into having time.


### Passage: Re-entering work and guarding against burnout [31:09–33:39, 396 words]

Note (AI): Covers the reality of starting a coaching business from scratch and the concrete habits Briony uses to keep herself out of burnout.

Briony Liber, guest [31:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1869):
> Exciting and terrifying. It's, it was one of the most magnificent things I've ever done because I got to create something from scratch, and it was the most terrifying thing I've ever done because I still hadn't quite developed my identity as a coach, as a Business owner as somebody who works on her own, I was still a bit attached to where I'd come from, and I think a lot of people still saw me in that space and that identity. So for me, it, it, it was very exciting to start defining myself, but it was terrifying in that it was, it was the first time I hadn't felt competent in decades, and And I was having to learn so many things. You, you think in corporate that you do so many things, and then you realize actually how many people you have around you who do all the things you think you are doing. And so having to learn how to run a business and how to market and how to sell myself and how to put myself out there was exciting and terrifying at the same time. I'll

Petro du Pisani, host [32:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1940):
> come for you to tip for tips, beginning of next year. Excellent. I'll send you my coaching rates. You can tell me exactly how to do all of this. Your reason for taking the sabbatical initially was because of burnout, so it was, probably a very, a, a very unhealthy place to be. Is there anything that you're doing now to make sure you don't ever end up there again?

Briony Liber, guest [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1962):
> Well, I've partially ended up there again over the last two years, so I'm getting better at noticing when I'm starting to burn out, but I'm not perfect at it yet. But I know that the things that keep me healthy and sane and bounded are exercise, sleep, eating healthily, tapping into my support network, taking time out for myself, playing. I do a hell of a lot of crafts and painting and, and things that I never defined as being part of myself, and so actually allowing myself to play now is, is part of my keep myself out of burnout tactic. And lots of journaling and more breaks. I, I think that's probably one of the big things, is giving myself more breaks during the day, allowing myself to not finish everything


### Passage: First Love Yourself and closing advice [34:01–36:36, 396 words]

Note (AI): Briony's central message: put yourself first and take a break by choice rather than after burnout, plus her view of why productive people burn out.

Briony Liber, guest [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2041):
> I think what got me into burnout and what keeps getting me back into burnout that I'm working on currently is putting myself first. So when I went into burnout, it was because I was putting myself last all the time, and I find that when I start to edge back into burnout, it's because I've stopped putting myself first. And I actually have tattooed myself with the words First Love Yourself, because it's, I, I find it challenging. To remember that I need to put myself first, fill my cup first, make sure that I am well capacitated first before I give of myself to anybody else. And so I think the one thing I'm doing better is that I'm noticing faster and I'm starting to act on that a little bit faster, but certainly not perfectly. Do you think you'll ever take a sabbatical again, and what would you do differently? Oh, I'd love to. Absolutely love to. I probably would do something quite similar to what you're doing right now. I have two or three books in me that I want to write. I have a whole bunch of conversations that I want to be having, and I think I'd probably spend at least six months talking and writing and playing.

Petro du Pisani, host [35:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2123):
> Is there anything else you'd like to mention that we didn't cover in the conversation?

Briony Liber, guest [35:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2128):
> I guess I'd like to encourage anybody who's listening to this to put themselves first and to, to take purposeful time out because you're choosing to, not because you've burnt out. And I, I think there are so many people who are going into burnout these days faster and faster without realizing it. And the one thing that I've really noticed is that most people who go into burnout are brilliantly productive and their brilliant product, productivity is what actually pushes them into burnout if they don't manage their boundaries well. So I just want to encourage people to start reflecting on what you're tolerating in yourself and in others that might not be as good for you as you think it is and start looking at how to be different. So that when it comes time to take your sabbatical, you do it because you're choosing to and not because you need six months to just lie down and recuperate before you start to enjoy it.


### Quotes

> "I started to notice that I was training people to disrespect my time,"
> — Briony Liber, guest · [02:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=142)

> "Focus on the life that you want and let your work support that, not the other way around."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=485)

> "you can't leave. You're the glue under the carpet. You're not even the furniture. You're the glue under the carpet."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=720)

> "This is gonna kill my love for baking. Let me keep this as a hobby."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [16:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=987)

> "I love being bad at it, and I love the fact that I'm allowing myself to be bad at something,"
> — Briony Liber, guest · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1187)

> "Pottering around, getting out of my head and using my hands, and I think for me it's quite a weird thing to recognize that actually doing gets me to think better than sitting down and intentionally thinking."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [21:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1267)

> "I remember doing a talk at one stage saying, well, entitled, I slept my way to the top."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1356)

> "Once you don't have a label, who are you actually, Petro?"
> — Briony Liber, guest · [26:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1570)

> "stop being a human doing and become a human being."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [27:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1644)

> "it involves allowing yourself to get bored. Because from boredom, creativity springs."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1664)

> "And the being and the doing of moving towards something rather than moving away from something is completely different."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [30:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1839)

> "I actually have tattooed myself with the words First Love Yourself,"
> — Briony Liber, guest · [34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2061)

> "take purposeful time out because you're choosing to, not because you've burnt out."
> — Briony Liber, guest · [35:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2139)


### Claims

> "I have been working as a coach in executive leadership and career coaching for the last eight years."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=71)

> "The simple answer is I burnt out. And the reason I burnt out was that I've had a lifetime of not managing boundaries and people pleasing and overworking."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [01:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=92)

> "And I got to a point where I was responsible for a fairly large team. I was responsible for quite a high billing target. I was traveling all the time. I was trying to do too many things."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=105)

> "I started to notice my behaviors and I started to notice that I was training people to disrespect my time, and I was tolerating working very long hours, and it really started to give me some insights into the fact that I was burning out quite badly."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [02:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=139)

> "I'd gone from being kind of calm, reasonable, kind, generous, to being quite resentful, getting angry very quickly, having very little capacity for patience and for people, and really starting to be a person that I didn't like."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [02:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=176)

> "she gave me her perspective of how, as I was talking, she could visualize me doing twenty different things. And it was that perspective that started this kind of journey towards being brave and starting to visualize myself as somebody different,"
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=235)

> "And yeah, so in 2016, I handed in my resignation. I had absolutely no idea what I was going to do."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=255)

> "the one thing I did know was that I'd signed up to do a coaching course just before I resigned, and so my sabbatical gave me time to really sink my teeth into that coaching course."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [04:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=277)

> "Oh, I would say it was at least a year to eighteen months. When I really started feeling like I was, I was just starting to get into an, a bad place emotionally, physically, intellectually."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=300)

> "The stuff that I love doing is mentoring and coaching the young professionals that I work with. And, and I can do that anywhere, and I want to do more of that."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=357)

> "And then I put it in a back cupboard, completely forgot about it, and five years later realized actually my vision board is exactly how I'm living my life."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=447)

> "stop focusing on the specific profession or career that you want to have. Focus on the life that you want and let your work support that, not the other way around."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [08:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=480)

> "You make the decision, you sort of put the intent out there, and then you forget about it, and then the universe conspires to make it happen for you because it's inside of you."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [09:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=543)

> "I think the only people who were really shocked by it were actually people at work who didn't believe that I could or would make a choice to do anything else, because all they'd ever seen me do was put work first, and work was my identity."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=671)

> "the biggest thing that I then needed to do was financially prepare myself and take stock of how I was going to afford to not be working for a while."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [12:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=758)

> "And I felt like I was letting a lot of women down by leaving. And that probably was emotionally the hardest part for me was this kind of tug of war between I've got to put myself first now, but now I'm abandoning people who have counted on me to be there for them."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Putting yourself first · [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=808)

> "But I couldn't continue to be a filter between top management and my team. I just couldn't continue to do that anymore. it just, it took too high a toll."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [14:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=854)

> "I had cashed out my shares, so I had some money, and my plan was to be on sabbatical until my money ran out. And I didn't have any structure."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [14:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=890)

> "the guy who was helping me with that phoned up and said, right, you'll need to be at the bakery at two o'clock in the morning. And I went, nope. This is gonna kill my love for baking. Let me keep this as a hobby."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=979)

> "I didn't miss the technical work at all, I didn't miss being a consultant, I didn't miss any part of how I lived, but I missed working with people and being of service."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1026)

> "I've come to the realization that I don't particularly want to work in a team, but I love working with people."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1047)

> "So how, why don't I experiment on myself and see, like try a whole bunch of different things. So the same that you mentioned earlier, try a whole bunch of different things and see which of those really make me happy and make my heart sing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [18:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1092)

> "I think experimenting is the only way to really get the truth out of yourself, because you can think yourself into any direction, but it's only when you start taking action that you really get a sense of, does this fit me well?"
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1125)

> "I love being bad at it, and I love the fact that I'm allowing myself to be bad at something, because my entire working career, I've had to be brilliant at everything that I do."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1187)

> "It's free-form writing and really just allowing myself to write whatever's coming up, whether it's a somatic experience or an intellectual experience or an emotional experience, just to write about that."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [20:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1225)

> "and I think for me it's quite a weird thing to recognize that actually doing gets me to think better than sitting down and intentionally thinking."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [21:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1271)

> "It was probably eight or nine months. I really hadn't planned how long it would be, but I was giving myself up to about nine months to, to really just take some time out."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1301)

> "registered my business and put an advert on Facebook and three hours later I had my first client, which was quite bizarre, and, and decided, right, my sabbatical's done."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1322)

> "how we need to be intentional and purposeful in taking time for ourselves and giving ourselves time to think, to reflect, to struggle, to be with ourselves, to play, to potter around, to be bad at things."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [23:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1381)

> "We, we deflect, we distract, we get busy because it's easier than actually facing yourself and, and, and being conscious and with what you're struggling with."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [23:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1431)

> "And so I turned around and said, I'm unemployed. And she looked at me with absolute horror and immediately turned around and went off to speak to somebody else."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [24:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1486)

> "I wish I'd spent more time letting go of my identity and embracing the unknown, because I, I spent a huge amount of time feeling like I should be doing something."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Identity beyond job title · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1499)

> "It was about disentangling myself or my identity from, from the company I used to work for, is to actually find out who I was without being that corporate person."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Identity beyond job title · [25:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1559)

> "I very easily distract myself with busyness to avoid having time to be with myself. And so, yeah, I really wish I'd been more intentional about just being and not doing."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [26:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1619)

> "stop being a human doing, stop being a human doing and become a human being."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [27:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1643)

> "I mean, to me, it, it involves allowing yourself to get bored. Because from boredom, creativity springs."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [27:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1663)

> "So maybe that's the other thing that surprised me is how quickly time goes. And if you're not intentional about how you use that time, how easily we fritter it away doing things that don't take us towards where we're trying to get to."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Intentional time and reflection · [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1746)

> "You, you think in corporate that you do so many things, and then you realize actually how many people you have around you who do all the things you think you are doing."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Career reinvention into coaching · [32:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1921)

> "But I know that the things that keep me healthy and sane and bounded are exercise, sleep, eating healthily, tapping into my support network, taking time out for myself, playing."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=1974)

> "I actually have tattooed myself with the words First Love Yourself, because it's, I, I find it challenging. To remember that I need to put myself first, fill my cup first,"
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Putting yourself first · [34:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2061)

> "I have two or three books in me that I want to write. I have a whole bunch of conversations that I want to be having, and I think I'd probably spend at least six months talking and writing and playing."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Sabbatical as experimentation · [35:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2104)

> "I guess I'd like to encourage anybody who's listening to this to put themselves first and to, to take purposeful time out because you're choosing to, not because you've burnt out."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Putting yourself first · [35:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2128)

> "most people who go into burnout are brilliantly productive and their brilliant product, productivity is what actually pushes them into burnout if they don't manage their boundaries well."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [35:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2154)

> "So I just want to encourage people to start reflecting on what you're tolerating in yourself and in others that might not be as good for you as you think it is and start looking at how to be different."
> — Briony Liber, guest · topic: Burnout and boundaries · [36:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495830_high.mp3#t=2168)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

First Love Yourself. Episode 9 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to career and leadership coach Briony Liber about her sabbatical after 25 years in the corporate world. She took a sabbatical after experiencing burnout due to a lifetime of not managing boundaries, overworking, and people-pleasing. Briony shares her journey of self-reflection through baking, traveling, journaling, and studying coaching. Briony highlights the importance of work-life balance, setting boundaries, and taking breaks before getting to the point of burnout. After her break, Briony reinvented herself as a coach and business owner. Her story underscores the value of purposeful time off for personal and professional growth. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #034 The Transformative Break | Zaheera Soomar

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/034-the-transformative-break/
- Date: 2024-10-24 (as at 2024-10-24)
- Guest: Zaheera Soomar
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Taking a sabbatical, Identity and self-worth, Corporate restructuring, Reflection and introspection, Re-entering the workplace, Privilege and choice, Solo adventures
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1495379
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3

### About the guest: Zaheera Soomar

- business leader, independent consultant, and academic scholar · Canada
- Originally South African; 20 years in the corporate world; has led large-scale transformational projects across multiple industries; completed her doctoral thesis during her sabbatical, with her doctorate through Haskayne Business School.

In their own words:

> "I am originally South African. I'm now based in Canada with my family for the past, I've been out of South Africa for the past ten years." [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=84)

> "I was also busy with my doctorate, and I had done around just over three and a half years. And I was busy with my thesis for about a year leading up to that decision last year." [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=153)

> "So, for example, one of the decisions I've made is I don't want to go back to corporate. I've worked in quite a number of corporates. I've also worked in mid-sized, smaller firms, and I've also worked in startup firms." [38:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2300)

> "the fact that I could do my MBA and my doctorate while being married and having kids, you fully supported that." [54:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3285)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with Zaheera Soomar, who took her first sabbatical after twenty years of work, following a corporate restructure. Zaheera describes needing a to-do list and her thesis to justify the break. She talks about feeling disposable when she left and about losing purpose in the first month. About two months in, she began giving herself permission to just be. She covers completing her doctorate, a solo Himalayan climb and humanitarian work in Egypt, and her method of introspection. She also explains how she is approaching re-entry to work differently and why she moved from sabbatical cynic to advocate. The host adds her own sabbatical rules and experiences.

**Key ideas**

- Zaheera says she needed a reason, such as her thesis and a to-do list, to give herself permission to take a sabbatical, and she links this to her self-worth. ([05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=315) [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=328))
- Zaheera describes feeling disposable at the end of the restructure and resolving to know her worth in her next commitment. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=705) [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767) [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=771))
- Both speakers say it takes about six to eight weeks to disentangle identity from an employer. Zaheera describes losing her sense of purpose in the first month. ([15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=934) [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=946) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1314))
- Zaheera says the sabbatical moved her from seeing breaks as weak to advocating them as probably a must. ([29:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1766) [30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1856) [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1905) [32:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1929))
- Zaheera argues that the ability to take a break is a privilege, but that self-respect and self-worth are available to anyone. ([42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566) [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2638) [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2642))
- Zaheera now screens organisations for alignment with her values, interviews them as much as they interview her, and negotiates for flexibility. ([45:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2735) [46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765) [46:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2796) [47:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2863))
- The host argues that solo adventures among strangers help you rediscover yourself. Zaheera found her answers to strangers on the mountain became more honest over time. ([27:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1634) [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1670) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1743))

**Zaheera's approach to introspection** ([34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [35:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2100) [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2124) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2158))

1. Sit with yourself without doing anything, not even reading or watching something.
2. Tune into your feelings by closing your eyes and noticing what each part of your body feels.
3. Go deeper to understand what is driving the feeling, such as fear or worry.
4. Identify the beliefs, stigmas and biases at the root, and decide whether to keep, change or let go of them.

**Lessons**

- Zaheera advises remembering how an exit felt so that, next time, you know your worth and what you give and get in return. ([12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767) [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=771))
- The host suggests setting sabbatical rules, such as no back-to-back meetings, to leave space to be bored, think and journal. ([21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1261))
- Zaheera suggests that returning to work after a break should mean treating the work and yourself differently. Otherwise the growth may not be there. ([39:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2380) [40:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2442))
- Zaheera plans financially for future breaks and proposes a two-month break every three years, which she says also lets the team step up. ([48:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2937) [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2994) [50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013))
- The host notes that promised sabbaticals can disappear once a restructure starts. ([50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3043))

**Who it's for:** Professionals, especially senior people and women in corporate roles, who are considering a career break or going through a restructure. It also suits managers deciding how to respond to staff who want sabbaticals.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Zaheera had worked for twenty years without taking a break before this sabbatical. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=100))
- Zaheera is originally South African, now based in Canada, and has been out of South Africa for ten years. ([01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=84))
- She had spent just over three and a half years on her doctorate when she decided to take the break. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=153))
- She planned to write her thesis in February and March, defend it in April, and graduate in June. She defended in April. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1102) [23:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1400))
- She booked a month-long trip to climb a Himalayan mountain and do humanitarian work with refugees in Egypt. ([24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1462) [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1474))
- Zaheera proposes a two-month break every three years. ([50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why do people feel they need to justify taking a sabbatical?**
A: Zaheera says her to-do list and thesis were ways to justify the break. She links this to her self-worth: she needed a reason in order to give herself permission. ([05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=315) [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=328))

**Q: How long does it take to settle into a sabbatical?**
A: The host says it takes about six to eight weeks to disentangle your identity from your employer. Zaheera says things changed for her around six to eight weeks in, in mid to late February. ([18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1125) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1195) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1314))

**Q: What does it feel like to leave during a corporate restructure?**
A: Zaheera says she felt disposable and like just a number. She describes the process as a harsh reality after giving the organisation her loyalty. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=705) [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767))

**Q: How can I do introspection during a career break?**
A: Zaheera describes sitting still, noticing what her body feels, asking what is driving the feeling, and then examining the beliefs and biases behind it before deciding whether to change them. ([34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077) [35:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2100) [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2124) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2158))

**Q: Should I hide a sabbatical in job interviews?**
A: Zaheera says she used to hide it but now talks about it openly as growth. She interviews employers as much as they interview her and asks about culture and fit. ([46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765) [46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2780) [46:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2796))

**Q: What should I negotiate for when returning to work after a break?**
A: Zaheera says she now negotiates on flexibility, such as where and how she works, thinking time, and working remotely, rather than mainly on salary. ([46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765) [47:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2863))

**Q: Is taking a sabbatical a privilege?**
A: Zaheera says being able to take a break and be financially okay is a huge privilege. She adds that how we treat and respect ourselves is something anybody can give themselves. ([42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566) [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2638))

**Q: How can a manager support employees who need a break?**
A: Zaheera says she would be more supportive and might even suggest a break to people showing signs of burnout. She suggests a two-month break every three years, which she says lets teams step up. ([48:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2937) [50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013) [52:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3121))


### Passage: Loss of purpose in the first month [15:34–17:28, 357 words]

Note (AI): Zaheera describes how tying her identity to work led to lost purpose and low self-worth, and how she filled her time to avoid the pain.

Zaheera Soomar, guest [15:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=934):
> When I came back, I struggled. So the first few weeks were about really getting comfortable with the idea that I'm not working. It's the first time in my life I'm not working. I almost felt like a loss of purpose. I think because I tied a lot of my identity and my purpose to my work, I was living out my passion and living out my purpose through my work. So when my work stopped, it almost felt like that stopped. And I was wondering, like, who am I? What am I even doing? What is my purpose here? What am I achieving on a daily basis, you know? And I felt a bit of loss of identity. My self-worth was extremely low. I started questioning myself and wondering, did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing for myself? Did I do the right thing for my family? I didn't yet start thinking about kind of next steps or what's, I was just living in the moment. So I would say that a big part of January was my first month was just struggling with the fact that my purpose and my passion were tied to my work and now it's kind of lost. My self-worth was low. My identity was being questioned. And I didn't know what I was getting up for every morning, apart from my family, but I didn't know what I was getting up every morning for. And I think that's where my to-do list started getting built. And I think part of the intention was to fill it so that I wouldn't sit in an idle state feeling and wondering all the things that I was feeling. So it was kind of a numb the pain type of thing. If I keep myself busy, I don't feel this pain. So I started filling my time with some of these remedial things on my to-do list, like paint my room, because it would fill my time. And I could feel some sense of self-worth and like that I was achieving something, I was doing something with my time.


### Passage: Job hunting leads to permission to just be [18:45–20:37, 358 words]

Note (AI): The turning point about two months in, when a scattered job search pushed her to stop justifying the break and reflect on what she wants.

Zaheera Soomar, guest [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1125):
> So in Feb, I started thinking, okay, I should start applying for jobs because at this level, when you're applying for senior roles, it does take a few months. And so, you know, you need to give yourself that few months. So I started applying for roles and I started realizing very quickly that the economy, even globally and specifically even in Canada, was quite changed. There were a lot of retrenchments taking place in a lot of different organizations. The types of roles that I was interested in, there weren't too many of them, and a lot of those roles were actually the ones being retrenched a lot of the times. And so I had a bit of this, I don't know if it was a reality of like, oh my God, this is not going to be as easy to get back into the workplace as I thought it would be. But also while I was applying for roles, I felt a bit scrambled. I took a moment and I realized, you're applying for these very different roles all over the show, and I felt a bit scrambled. And I told myself, no, you need to actually take the time to think about what it is that you want. And I had that realization probably six to eight weeks in. So in Feb, I would say mid to late Feb. And That's when things actually started to change for me, because that's when I started, I think, giving myself permission to just be, to just regroup, rethink, reset, and not have to have it all figured out. And that's when I just started to breathe more and stopped needing a justification as to why I'm on a sabbatical. And I was, and I started saying things like, I'm taking a break because I deserve one. And I don't know what I'm going to do in this time, and that's okay. And I don't know what comes next, but I'll figure it out, but that's okay. And it wasn't telling other people that, but it was my ability to tell myself that and feel okay with it.


### Passage: What surprised her about the sabbatical [29:26–32:13, 492 words]

Note (AI): She sets out her shifts: reclaiming self-worth from the organisation, dropping the need to achieve, and changing from sabbatical cynic to advocate.

Zaheera Soomar, guest [29:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1766):
> A few things. I think one is how much of my self-worth I attach to the organization and the role that I was in and kind of just trying to reclaim that back and attach it to myself and what I've experienced and done and achieved in my life as opposed to attaching it to an organization or role. So I've made that change and I, I feel more, my self-worth is back, back up. I feel more validated, but validated by myself and by the people that love me as opposed to being validated by an organization. so that's one. The second is I think I've calmed down, and I don't know how best to explain this, but I've always been someone that just needed to be doing something and getting something done and ticking off something. I don't have that need anymore. I don't have that need to be constantly chasing something or achieving something. I can go through a day now where I can say I was not productive and probably didn't achieve anything and feel absolutely okay. So I've given myself the permission to not be that constant overachiever that I've always been, and I've, and that's been great. And it's, it's refreshing, and it's, I feel I've lifted a burden off my shoulder by not expecting myself to be there. So that was a change. I think the other big change is my view of sabbaticals and breaks. I had a very cynical view of taking a break or sabbatical. I've gone through my career always feeling that it was weak. Even when women took mat leave for like 12 months, I would be like, what are you doing for 12 months, you know? It's a really long time, it's gonna impact your career. Why would you take 12 months for a maternity leave? I never took long maternity leaves, I always kind of needed to get back out there. I mean, I've always come across both men and women, and more women, that have taken breaks in their career because they wanted to be stay-at-home moms for a period of time, you know, it was a choice they made. And I, I always questioned it, and I always, I don't know that I supported or bought into it, or I didn't know that I saw it as positive. And my mind has shifted on that. I have a very different view on sabbaticals. I actually now feel it's probably a must. I think that's absolutely amazing and I advocate for people taking sabbaticals every now and so often in your life, if not for to just regroup, but it also serves a purpose of realigning what you're really interested and passionate about in. So I would say the third thing is my view on taking a break, taking a sabbatical has changed. I've gone from being a cynic to being a very big advocate of it.


### Passage: Her four-layer approach to introspection [34:37–36:59, 463 words]

Note (AI): A step-by-step description of how she reflects, from sitting still to examining the beliefs and biases behind her feelings.

Zaheera Soomar, guest [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077):
> One is just sitting with myself, so not having to, not having something to do, not even reading a book, not even watching something, not having, not being able to just tick off something, but it's just being able to sit, right? Calm my mind and just, number one, being able to sit. So that's, for me, part of introspection and reflection. It's just being in the moment. The second thing I think is being in tune with your feelings and what you're feeling. I've learned to kind of just Close my eyes and feel what my body's feeling. So be in touch with what are your feet, what is your feet feeling? What are your legs feeling? What is your gut feeling? You know, what is your, what are your shoulders feeling? Like where's your head space? Just really being able to dig deep and feel what is your body feeling. I think the third thing is going a bit deeper to understand why you're feeling that way. So what's driving this feeling? If you're feeling stressed or anxious, if you're feeling a bit of press on your shoulders, what in this moment is driving that feeling? Like, is it, what are you worried about? Is it fear of something? Is it a worry? Are you, you know, are you worried about finances? Are you worried about how people think of you? What you, how you're seen? Are you worried about being term unemployed? Because that was a worry about for me as well at one point in time. So just trying to understand what's causing that feeling. And then trying to go even deeper, which is what are your beliefs and your stigmas and your biases That's the root cause of those feelings. Why are you worried about being unemployed? Like, what assumptions do you have in your head that's driving a fear of being unemployed? Because if you are financially stable and you've decided to take a break, then what's wrong with that, you know? So just basically being able to just take, just in the moment, sit, take a step back, recognize beliefs, biases, assumptions that I have, and then making decisions of if I want to hold on to it or if I need to break it, if I need to let go of it, if I need to change that belief, if I need to prove it differently. So for me, that's a lot of my reflection and my introspection was just about that, really being in touch with myself, my belief system, why it exists. Do I actually believe it? What led me to that? And do I want to change it and challenge it? And do I want to have a different outlook on it?


### Passage: Interviewing and negotiating differently after the break [46:05–48:41, 503 words]

Note (AI): Concrete changes in how she approaches interviews and negotiation: openness about the sabbatical, questions about culture, and asking for flexibility.

Zaheera Soomar, guest [46:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2765):
> So now that I'm in the interview stage with a few organizations, I also find the way that I'm conducting the interviews different, how I talk about the sabbatical, why the sabbatical, what it, I actually talk about it very openly in my interviews. And I, I don't hide the fact. I think previously I probably would have tried to hide the fact that I'm on a sabbatical or not really kind of brought any attention to it. I'm very open about it now. And I'm like, this is great. It's been amazing growth for me. I talk very openly about it. That's the, that's the first change. The second change is I find I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. This needs to be a mutual benefit for both of us. You need to want me, but I also need to want you as an organization, and even the, the kind of the hiring manager, right? I find the questions that I'm asking in these interviews are different to the questions I've asked before. It's less about the, skill-based questions, but it's more about the culture, the fit, how you make decisions, what do you really intrinsically care about, you know, how do you see your employees, how do you see your people? I've been asking those types of questions. So, you know, just things that I've found in this past year that I actually deeply care about and deeply impact me, I started asking about those things. And I find when I negotiate, I'm negotiating on things that I never negotiated before. So I've never really had to negotiate on salary, but like most people have to negotiate on salary. That's usually the first negotiation point. Can we land on a good salary that we both agree with and benefits and bonuses, et cetera. I find I'm negotiating more on things like flexibility. Can I be flexible in where I work, how I work, when I give my thinking time, et cetera? Can I work remotely? If I wanted to go spend a month in this country and I'm happy to work there, could I do that, you know? I'm finding that I'm asking those types of questions, and part of it's because I really just, you know, I think similar to you, we've explored this year, right? We've gone abroad, we've lived, and I've just appreciated the beauty of that time, and I don't want to lose that, and I don't only want to get that when I go on a next sabbatical, take a break. I want to try and build some of these things that I've really loved in this time into my daily practice or into my normal routine. So, so yeah, I'm approaching things differently. I don't know where I'm gonna land, but I hope that my, because my approach is different, I hope that I'm gonna land a little bit closer to what's gonna serve me well than what I did before.


### Passage: Supporting others' breaks and planning the next [48:57–50:25, 311 words]

Note (AI): Shows how she would handle sabbaticals as a manager and how she plans financially for regular future breaks.

Zaheera Soomar, guest [48:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2937):
> Both. I think both. I think I'd definitely be a lot more supportive and encouraging for people who want to take it that are reporting to me. I think I would show up in that conversation very differently and very supportive. Even, things like maternity breaks and things. Not that I never supported that, but I think I, my view on it has all changed. When I see people burning out or potentially needing one, I might even suggest it and say, hey, have you ever thought of taking a break? Like, I've been through one, it's rejuvenating. Let's talk through it. Have you ever considered one? So I actually think I might advocate a little bit for it. For myself, absolutely. I am already dreaming about the day that I can take another one. And financially, it's being built in. And I, you know, I was talking to my husband the other day, and we were talking about Okay, you know, I'm looking for a role financially. What do we have to agree to in order to kind of, you know, let's agree on what number that looks like at a minimum so we pay our bills. And I said to him, and I want more because I'd like to save for the next time I want to take a break and I, we can financially cover that break because that's important to me. And I'm already thinking about, you know, at least a couple of years down the line, I, and I don't need, I don't feel like I need to leave work for it, but it's like, you know, every three years, take a two months break and it's a, it's a long leave essentially. Go and, you know, shut off it. I also feel it gives people the opportunity to step up, your team to step up.


### Quotes

> "My room was yellow, as in the paint, when I bought my house six years ago … on the 18th of January this year, I painted my room gray. It was the very first thing I did before I even did my thesis. It was the very first thing I did."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=263)

> "It's almost like I needed a reason to take a sabbatical in order to give myself permission to take a sabbatical."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=328)

> "My husband was very supportive … My broader family … were also supportive of this, but there was also this Concern of like, financially are you going to be okay? … And then friends, I would say mixed feelings … Do you think that this is going to be okay? What will it do to your career?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [06:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=376)

> "remember this feeling, because when you next commit to something, know your worth and know what you're giving and know what you're getting in return."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=771)

> "If I keep myself busy, I don't feel this pain."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [17:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1030)

> "I'm taking a break because I deserve one. And I don't know what I'm going to do in this time, and that's okay."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [20:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1222)

> "I always feel when I give back to my home, my home looks after me."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [22:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1359)

> "It's almost like freedom by talking to strangers, something like that."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1743)

> "I've gone from being a cynic to being a very big advocate of it."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [32:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1929)

> "I haven't spoken to a single person yet who has regretted taking the break."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [33:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2022)

> "It is a huge privilege to be able to take a break and take a sabbatical and be financially okay … even if you have less privilege, one can still make certain choices … how we treat ourselves, how we respect ourselves, the level of self-worth, I think anybody can give that to themselves."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566)

> "I think how we treat ourselves, how we respect ourselves, the level of self-worth, I think anybody can give that to themselves."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [44:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2642)

> "I find I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [46:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2798)

> "I do think that there might be a gender aspect to this that plays out in terms of I mean, I certainly can see how, you know, when women take maternity leave, leaves and potentially how it impacts one's trajectory or career because of how it's seen sometimes."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [51:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3074)

> "He's actually, you know, when we left South Africa … he said to me, I don't want to go back into the workplace. I want to try my own things … for the past nine, ten years, he's been doing a bit of this and that and running his own businesses … I would say he's had a ten-year sabbatical."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [53:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3188)

> "so I would say he's had a ten-year sabbatical."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · [53:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3236)


### Claims

> "I am originally South African. I'm now based in Canada with my family for the past, I've been out of South Africa for the past ten years."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Background · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=84)

> "And in twenty years, I've never taken a break. I've always been really scared to take a break, take a sabbatical, even take long leave when it was due."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=100)

> "I was also busy with my doctorate, and I had done around just over three and a half years. And I was busy with my thesis for about a year leading up to that decision last year."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=153)

> "Part of generating this to-do list or having a reason was also part of me justifying why I was taking a sabbatical. It was also linked to kind of my self-worth. I struggled a lot with that. It's almost like I needed a reason to take a sabbatical in order to give myself permission to take a sabbatical."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [05:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=315)

> "if you've been with a specific company or corporate for a long time, your identity just does get tangled up into the work that you're doing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Identity and self-worth · [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=342)

> "It's very hard for women to justify a break in their CV or in, you know, their, their career, even when it comes to mat leave, where, where it's a very obvious, you know, break that you should take. Even that sometimes can have an impact."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Gender and career breaks · [07:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=442)

> "I felt, if I can use the word, and maybe this is hard or harsh, I felt disposable through that process because when I got to the end of the process, I really felt you are just a number in an organization."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Corporate restructuring · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=705)

> "But it's also something I remind, I told myself, remember this feeling, because when you next commit to something, know your worth and know what you're giving and know what you're getting in return."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Corporate restructuring · [12:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=767)

> "good to remember the feelings so that you're ever in the position where you have to do the restructuring, that you can be more humane about it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Corporate restructuring · [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=784)

> "so the very first thing I decided was, I want to go on pilgrimage. I needed to just breathe. I needed to surrender. I needed to give into my faith. I needed to find inspiration."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=898)

> "I almost felt like a loss of purpose. I think because I tied a lot of my identity and my purpose to my work, I was living out my passion and living out my purpose through my work. So when my work stopped, it almost felt like that stopped."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [15:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=946)

> "And I think part of the intention was to fill it so that I wouldn't sit in an idle state feeling and wondering all the things that I was feeling. So it was kind of a numb the pain type of thing. If I keep myself busy, I don't feel this pain."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [16:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1018)

> "So I had been very strict with myself and I said, okay, I'm going to write my thesis the whole of Feb and March. In April, I'm defending because in June, I want to graduate."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1102)

> "So I started applying for roles and I started realizing very quickly that the economy, even globally and specifically even in Canada, was quite changed. There were a lot of retrenchments taking place in a lot of different organizations."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [18:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1136)

> "That's when things actually started to change for me, because that's when I started, I think, giving myself permission to just be, to just regroup, rethink, reset, and not have to have it all figured out."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1195)

> "I had a couple of rules for my sabbatical. It was firstly, no back-to-back meetings, keeping space open for me to be able to be bored and think and be creative again and journal and just figure out who I am and who I want to be."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [21:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1261)

> "It, it takes, yeah, like I, I think it takes six to eight weeks. For you to actually, disentangle your identity from your, from your employer and go, who am I without being attached to this big corporates?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Identity and self-worth · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1314)

> "In April, I defended my, my thesis, so that was over and that was done and I felt this huge sense of relief. That also in itself was a very big moment for me because I, I had set this goal for my sabbatical of completing my thesis."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [23:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1400)

> "So I decided I'm going to go and climb one of the mountains in the Himalaya. I'm going to take the time out. I wanted to do that. so I booked a trip. I started training for it."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Solo adventures · [24:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1462)

> "And I decided I wanted to do some humanitarian work in Egypt as well with all the refugees. So I added that onto the back end of the trip, and I basically booked a month-long trip."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Solo adventures · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1474)

> "I've, you know, for the, for most of my career, I've been I'm, I'm sad to say this, it's shameful, but I've been fitting my kids in, and this time I really could just dedicate time to what they wanted to do."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Family · [26:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1576)

> "It's, it's something sometimes very freeing to be, in a whole group of strangers, who don't know you. because you get to know yourself almost better by telling your story to them."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Solo adventures · [27:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1634)

> "in the beginning, I would give these answers of what I thought was right. And towards the end, it was really just a very honest answer as to why on earth am I here on this mountain and climbing this thing."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Solo adventures · [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1670)

> "I feel more validated, but validated by myself and by the people that love me as opposed to being validated by an organization."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1793)

> "I can go through a day now where I can say I was not productive and probably didn't achieve anything and feel absolutely okay."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1825)

> "I had a very cynical view of taking a break or sabbatical. I've gone through my career always feeling that it was weak."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1856)

> "I actually now feel it's probably a must. I think that's absolutely amazing and I advocate for people taking sabbaticals every now and so often in your life, if not for to just regroup, but it also serves a purpose of realigning what you're really interested and passionate about in."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [31:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1905)

> "These are expectations that I've placed on myself. And I've started asking myself, why? Why have you done this to yourself? Why on earth would you put yourself through this?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Identity and self-worth · [32:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=1955)

> "And then I haven't spoken to a single person yet who has regretted taking the break. And I'm just like, how do we normalize this?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [33:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2021)

> "One is just sitting with myself, so not having to, not having something to do, not even reading a book, not even watching something, not having, not being able to just tick off something, but it's just being able to sit, right?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [34:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2077)

> "The second thing I think is being in tune with your feelings and what you're feeling. I've learned to kind of just Close my eyes and feel what my body's feeling."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [35:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2100)

> "I think the third thing is going a bit deeper to understand why you're feeling that way. So what's driving this feeling?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [35:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2124)

> "And then trying to go even deeper, which is what are your beliefs and your stigmas and your biases That's the root cause of those feelings."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Reflection and introspection · [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2158)

> "So, for example, one of the decisions I've made is I don't want to go back to corporate. I've worked in quite a number of corporates. I've also worked in mid-sized, smaller firms, and I've also worked in startup firms."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [38:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2300)

> "I do genuinely now understand the link between where I work and what I do and how it ties to my happiness and then how I show up in every other aspect of my life."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [39:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2380)

> "I think people could go back to that same space, but the idea is to treat it differently, treat yourself differently, you would do it differently. If you're going to go back and do it all the same, I'm not sure if the growth is there."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [40:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2442)

> "But even if you go into a job, for whatever reason you're going into, at least you know what you stand for and, and what you will put up with and what you won't put up with."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [42:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2529)

> "It is a huge privilege to be able to take a break and take a sabbatical and be financially okay. It is a huge privilege to be able to put boundaries down and parameters down and say, I'm only going to type go after this type of role."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Privilege and choice · [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2566)

> "So I think there are certain things that fall on the side of privilege, but I think how we treat ourselves, how we respect ourselves, the level of self-worth, I think anybody can give that to themselves. I don't think that that's a, a privilege aspect."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Privilege and choice · [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2638)

> "I've actually gone through and made a list of really looking deeply into organizations, their values, their purpose. Does it align with my value and my purpose?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [45:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2735)

> "I think previously I probably would have tried to hide the fact that I'm on a sabbatical or not really kind of brought any attention to it. I'm very open about it now."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2780)

> "The second change is I find I'm interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. This needs to be a mutual benefit for both of us."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [46:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2796)

> "I find I'm negotiating more on things like flexibility. Can I be flexible in where I work, how I work, when I give my thinking time, et cetera? Can I work remotely?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [47:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2863)

> "And I said to him, and I want more because I'd like to save for the next time I want to take a break and I, we can financially cover that break because that's important to me."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=2994)

> "every three years, take a two months break and it's a, it's a long leave essentially. Go and, you know, shut off it. I also feel it gives people the opportunity to step up, your team to step up."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Taking a sabbatical · [50:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3013)

> "I had asked my manager when I started, whether in two or three years' time I could potentially take three months off, and he actually said yes. But then when a, but then when a restructure starts happening, then all of those things are off the table."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Corporate restructuring · [50:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3043)

> "I certainly would advocate for people taking a break when it's needed and maybe even fleshing out what are the signs of a sabbatical being, you know, what are the signs of a looming sabbatical that's needed?"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Gender and career breaks · [52:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3121)

> "And so for the past nine, ten years, he's been doing a bit of this and that and running his own businesses. And I don't want to say that that's a sabbatical, but it is, I've, I've taken the pressure off him financially to provide anything,"
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Family · [53:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3214)

> "the fact that I could do my MBA and my doctorate while being married and having kids, you fully supported that."
> — Zaheera Soomar, guest · topic: Doctorate · [54:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1495379_high.mp3#t=3285)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

From Doing to Being. Episode 8 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks with Dr Zaheera Soomar about her transformative sabbatical after 20 years in the corporate world. Zaheera shares her journey of overcoming self-doubt, regaining a sense of purpose, and finding balance through reflection, adventure, and completing her doctoral thesis. She reflects on the importance of breaks, work-life alignment, and prioritising values as she prepares to re-enter the workforce with a renewed perspective. This inspiring conversation emphasises the value of intentional pauses for self-discovery and long-term well-being. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #033 The Self-Discovery Pause | Louise Rapley

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/033-the-self-discovery-pause/
- Date: 2024-10-09 (as at 2024-10-09)
- Guest: Louise Rapley
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Sabbatical as life threshold, Overwork and numbing, Memoir writing as healing, Inner child work, Guilt and privilege, Boundaries and perfectionism, Reinventing a career
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1490278
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3

### About the guest: Louise Rapley

- freelance writer and editor · Cape Town
- Previously a high school French teacher for seventeen years and then a textbook editor for seventeen years; during her sabbatical she wrote a memoir, which remains unpublished.

In their own words:

> "first part of my professional life, I was a high school French teacher, so that was a seventeen-year period, and then this second seventeen-year period, I'd been a textbook editor," [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=271)

> "And then I thought, hang on, I'm actually a really good writer and editor. I have experience qualifications. They might be in the textbook industry, but pretty sure some of those can be translated into other areas." [44:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2643)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani, herself on a conscious break from work, talks with Louise Rapley, a former French teacher and textbook editor, about a sabbatical funded by her partner after a COVID-cancelled trip. Louise describes overwork and numbing, the slow emergence of a memoir about an abusive marriage and her healing, discovering 'little Louise', her inner child, and a publisher's rejection that ended the sabbatical. She explains why she could not return to textbook editing and how she now sets boundaries and harnesses her perfectionism as a freelance writer and editor.

**Key ideas**

- Louise says textbook editing let her live in her head and numb her feelings, leaving her overloaded and unable to stop working. ([04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=298) [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=303) [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=382))
- Louise's partner urged her not to run the sabbatical with the same rigidity as her working life; she values asking what would make her soul feel free. ([11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=664) [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=730) [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=744))
- Louise found freedom hard at first and felt guilt about wasting time and about the privilege of a sabbatical; Petro argues you must give yourself permission. ([15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=938) [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=941) [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1047) [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1159))
- For Louise, writing was the process of reflection; the memoir took her into dark material and vivid dreams. ([28:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1730) [29:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1773) [31:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1899))
- Louise identified 'little Louise', childhood coping patterns such as numbing and catastrophising, which still took over in crises. ([32:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1957) [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1971) [33:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2031) [35:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2114))
- Louise argues the transformation required headspace and the removal of work urgency, and could not have happened without the break. ([36:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2183) [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2185) [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2192) [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2223))
- After the sabbatical Louise could not return to exploitative terms, and now limits her perfectionism to what the client's brief requires. ([43:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2584) [49:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2995) [50:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3046) [51:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3082))

**Lessons**

- Louise treats the word 'just' as a warning sign that she is about to overwork, and stops. ([47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2828) [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2828))
- Petro suggests not rushing into activity at the start of a break; her body needed time to relax before creativity flowed. ([12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=764) [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=868))
- Louise learned that forcing a creative project produced writing she found boring; the manuscript had to emerge in its own way. ([13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=830))
- Louise now offers clients options with costs and delivers only what they choose, rather than over-working a manuscript for a falling hourly rate. ([50:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3046) [51:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3082))
- Louise withdrew from a project when her perfectionism made the brief impossible, seeing it as a lesson to harness perfectionism only when required. ([48:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2903) [48:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2939) [49:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2995))

**Who it's for:** People considering or on a sabbatical or career break, especially those with overwork habits, guilt about rest, or interest in using writing for self-reflection and healing, and editors or freelancers rethinking boundaries with clients.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Louise was a high school French teacher for seventeen years, then a textbook editor for seventeen years. ([04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=271))
- Louise's South America trip was planned for 2020 and cancelled because of COVID. ([02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=144))
- Louise's sabbatical was planned for nine months, at the end of which she had a first draft of her memoir. ([22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1353))
- Louise stayed in her marriage for more than 17 years. ([25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1528))
- About four fifths of Louise's memoir covered her healing in her current relationship. ([28:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1730))
- Petro's exit from her corporate job was ten years in the making, via a voluntary severance package in a commodity downturn. ([17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1063))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Louise Rapley end up taking a sabbatical?**
A: Her partner proposed using the refund from a cancelled 2020 South America trip to fund a sabbatical for her, which she initially resisted because her family considered being a kept woman one of the worst things to be. ([02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=134) [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=144) [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=196) [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=222))

**Q: How long should a sabbatical be?**
A: Louise first thought three or four months, then six; her partner insisted on a minimum of nine. In practice her sabbatical was extended well beyond nine months because her memoir draft did not yet feel right. ([09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=588) [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1353))

**Q: Is it normal to feel guilty about taking a sabbatical?**
A: Louise felt guilt about wasting time and about the privilege. Petro, despite ten years of planning, felt the same, and argues you must accept it, process it and give yourself permission, including to rest. ([17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1063) [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1159))

**Q: Can writing a memoir help with healing?**
A: Louise says writing was her process of reflection; the memoir made her confront why she stayed in an abusive marriage, and most of it covered her journey of healing in her current relationship. ([24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1452) [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1528) [28:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1730) [31:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1899))

**Q: What is inner child work in practice?**
A: Louise describes 'little Louise', whose childhood coping included numbing and over-dramatising. She now recognises when little Louise takes over in a conversation, asks for a minute, and moves back into adult behaviour. ([32:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1957) [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1971) [33:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2031) [35:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2114))

**Q: Could this kind of personal transformation happen without taking time off work?**
A: Louise says absolutely not: it needed headspace, reflective space and freedom from work urgency, such as being able to journal at 3am after a bad dream and nap the next day. ([36:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2183) [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2185) [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2223) [37:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2255))

**Q: What happened to Louise's memoir?**
A: She sent it to a publisher for a paid book report; the report was devastating and the publisher said it was not her cup of tea. Louise chose not to submit elsewhere. ([39:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2344) [40:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2418))

**Q: How do you avoid going back to old work habits after a sabbatical?**
A: Louise watches for numbing, forces herself to stop when she hears herself say 'just', and sets boundaries with clients, delivering only the brief they choose. ([47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2828) [51:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3082) [52:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3155))


### Passage: A cancelled holiday becomes a funded sabbatical [02:14–04:19, 323 words]

Note (AI): Shows how the sabbatical came about unplanned and the conditioned resistance Louise had to being supported.

Louise Rapley, guest [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=134):
> It wasn't something that I actually, that was on my radar at all. It was strange the way it happened. In 2020, my partner and I had the most amazing trip to South America planned, and we had booked everything, and everything was paid for, and then COVID happened. And so, of course, we had to cancel it, and we were sitting in the difficult place that everybody is so familiar with. Is this the end of our lives? Will everything, anything ever be normal again? What's going to happen? And so the first step was The holiday is, is off the table. And my partner said to me, you know, we're really disappointed. We'd been looking forward to this for a long time. It was something very special that we were promising ourselves, but I would like to see if we can turn this disappointment into something beautiful. And, what he said was that he wanted to take the money that had been refunded to us from the holiday and use it to create a space for me to take a sabbatical. And, that was quite a shock on so many levels because I'd never thought of taking a sabbatical before. And now he was offering to fund that for me. And I had a whole lot of resistance to that idea, just simply because I was brought up with this conditioned idea that I must always look after myself because if I didn't, nobody else would. One of the worst things one could be to the family I grew up in was a kept woman. It was even worse than being with mutton dressed as lamb, which is the other thing, the other mantra from my childhood. So this idea of being a kept woman was, very difficult for me to take on, but I got used to it progressively, and I accepted and thought, what a wonderful opportunity this was.


### Passage: Textbook editing, overload and numbing [04:31–06:53, 365 words]

Note (AI): Louise's career history and a detailed account of the work habits that led her to burnout.

Louise Rapley, guest [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=271):
> first part of my professional life, I was a high school French teacher, so that was a seventeen-year period, and then this second seventeen-year period, I'd been a textbook editor, and I had Become, you know, transitioned from being teacher to editor while I was in the middle of what turned out to be a very long and very unhappy marriage. And so textbook editing had seemed perfect for me because I could just dive into it. I could exist in my head instead of in my feelings. I could numb myself to what was going on in my life and I could just work and work and work. And so those habits had persisted, even though I'd left the marriage and was now in a very beautiful relationship, those habits of working, of seeing myself as only being worth something when I was productive, those still persisted. And I still had all the bad habits of taking on way too much work, of having absolutely no boundaries with my clients. You know, the world of textbook editing A publisher will say, right, we have this project we'd like to offer you. it's, history, grade ten, we want you to do this or this. And then they tell you the proposed fee and you either accept it or turn it down. And in my case, I never turned anything down because I just thought I had to take on everything that was given to me. So I was permanently in overload, and stressed with far too much work and very bad habits of working for very, very long hours without ever looking after myself. in fact, I had the really bad habit of not being able to stop because when I stopped working, I could actually feel how exhausted I was, and I didn't want to feel that. So it was easier to sit at my laptop and to keep going until I absolutely had to stop. Than to look after myself and listen to my body or feel whatever I might be feeling. Much better to just be in my head and, cut out all that, what I probably viewed as nonsense back then.


### Passage: Writing cycles, freedom and guilt [15:32–17:41, 364 words]

Note (AI): Describes the rhythm of creative work on sabbatical and the discomfort of unstructured freedom.

Louise Rapley, guest [15:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=932):
> Yeah, I'm just remembering one of the most difficult things for me about doing just that was that I had so much freedom, and I didn't know what to do with freedom. I didn't know what freedom was, and I found myself wishing that I could just have a boring old textbook to edit. Because then I would know what to do with my day, instead of having to start from scratch and, and find a way myself. So getting into the groove, yeah, long and slow, and it, it felt like I moved through cycles that kept on repeating themselves. So I would get an idea that I wanted to write about, and I would start writing, on the first day of a week, and it would go fantastically, and then on the second day, I would have an even better writing day, and the chapter, whatever it was that I was working on, would be really taking form. And then I would get to a point where I felt satisfied with it, but now I wanted to move on straight away to the next thing, because that was how I was used to functioning. And having to take the time instead to say, wow, I've accomplished an incredible amount this week. I'm really pleased with what I've written. Now I have a day to just be. So maybe I go back to Kirstenbosch or I go wandering off in the green belts, which is something else I love doing. Or I sit and do my jigsaw puzzle or I read or I watch three episodes of my show on Netflix because I can't actually bear being with myself for a moment longer. I had to learn to do that. And then the, the, the cycle would keep repeating itself, not necessarily neatly in weeks. Maybe I would not get another idea for a week or so. And then I would feel huge amount of guilt that I was wasting this time that I'd been gifted. I also, I don't know if you had this experience, but I felt a lot of guilt about the privilege of being able to take a sabbatical.


### Passage: Discovering little Louise, the inner child [32:37–35:57, 479 words]

Note (AI): The central insight of the episode: childhood coping patterns, how she recognises them now and steps back into adult behaviour.

Louise Rapley, guest [32:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1957):
> That piece of work that I did, the extended piece of work of looking at why I made some poor, very poor choices, that was, that was fundamental to my growth, because what I discovered Was a part of myself that I call little Louise, at the child me. So, as a kid, I had some stuff happening that was, that was really big to handle. The, the biggest issue was my brother. He was two years older than me. I was the youngest of five. And he was a blue baby, so he had learning problems and behavioral problems. And eventually when he was a teenager, it, it became schizophrenia. So, I was living with some very troubling, frightening behavior. And I didn't have the support that would have helped me to deal with it properly. I was really, I really felt lost and alone, even though I was one of a big family. My parents didn't have the time to give energy to me. I was the quiet little girl who behaved. All the energy went to my brother. And Little Louise sort of found her ways of coping. Number one, numbing, go into head, think, don't feel, catastrophize, over-dramatize to try and get attention. Because if I kept quiet, nobody paid me any attention. If there was an issue and I overreacted to it, maybe I would get a bit of attention, usually not terribly positive, but, any attention is better than nothing. and what I had to realize through writing my memoir was that Little Louise was actually the, the, the dominant aspect in my personality still. Of course, I was able to be adult Louise for long stretches of time, but when there was any kind of crisis, I defaulted to Little Louise behavior. And it wasn't helpful. It didn't work when I was a little girl, and it certainly didn't work in my twenties or thirties or forties or fifties. And really starting to pull that behavior apart, to understand what it created it, to understand what the payoffs were for it, to see it in action, to actually recognize it. I mean, I can now, I was in a conversation last week, and I could suddenly feel little Louise come over me. Adult Louise had disappeared. I could feel the panic and the, I just wanted to burst into tears. That was very much little Louise behavior. I could feel that happening, and I could say, just hang on a second, I need a minute to gather myself. And then I could move back into the adult person. But I only learned to do that through my writing, through, through my memoir. It took a hang of a lot of practice and it's taken huge self-awareness and, and developing an outer witness, but it is the most incredible gift to have today.


### Passage: Why the transformation needed a break [36:23–38:12, 270 words]

Note (AI): Louise's argument for why deep inner work required time away from work's urgency.

Louise Rapley, guest [36:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2183):
> Absolutely no way. I had been doing some, some serious inner work, for a few years, but this kind of transformation takes headspace. It takes reflective space. It takes being able to have a night where you barely sleep. And you sitting journaling, sorry, I'm going to change from you to I, where I barely slept and I was sitting journaling at three o'clock in the morning because I'd had such a horrible dream. You can't do that on a regular basis and then sit down to work the next morning. But having the urgency of work removed meant I wasn't panicking at two o'clock in the morning and saying, I'll have to go to sleep. how am I going to cope with tomorrow? I could say, I'll take a nap tomorrow afternoon. This is important processing that I'm doing. I'm going to honor it and do it. So no, there's no way I could have. I think, I think if I hadn't had my sabbatical, and perhaps this transformation would still have happened because it was happening already, but it was gradual. I needed, I needed a gap. I needed a space to let it all be. And to go into whatever place it took me, and to explore that place and to, and to come out at the end with a deep understanding of myself and a compassion for myself and for my family, for my parents, and for the possibility of a huge amount of healing of my relationships, not only my relationship with myself, but my, my family relationships. Could never have happened without a sabbatical.


### Passage: Publisher rejection and ending the sabbatical [39:04–41:51, 405 words]

Note (AI): How the memoir's rejection punctured her fantasy and marked the sabbatical's end.

Louise Rapley, guest [39:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2344):
> Well, what happened, the way my sabbatical came to an end was that this memoir really had taken on a life of its own, and it insisted on being in a particular format, and I got the idea that the story, particularly the way I've healed the, the, the issues with my sexuality, would be very helpful to other women specifically. And so I wanted to publish this book. And so I sent it off to a publisher, and I requested a book report. So this was a publisher, you know, one had to pay to submit a manuscript, and then for an extra fee, they would give a book report. And of course, you talked about the fantasy earlier. So here was my fantasy that the publisher would say, oh, this is amazing, I want to publish it. and next second, I'd be in demand as a podcast guest, and, feted all over the world by women who, who found answers in, in my wisdom. And of course, it didn't turn out anything like that. The reader's report was quite devastating to read. her feel, the publisher's feeling was, well, she summed it up, this is not my cup of tea. And she found the stuff, the part where I'd focused on the beautiful growth, she wasn't able to see that because she was getting so hung up on the, my introduction was a chapter contrasting two sexual acts of the same kind, but one from back then in my past and one from now. And I think that was just too shocking and too graphic for her, which I really get now. When I wrote it, I think I was quite naive in thinking that it would find an audience and that she was, would be a receptive audience because I'd got so comfortable with my sexuality that I was sort of assuming everyone was. And that was a very big mistake. So I was really grateful in the end for her, somewhat less than excited response to my manuscript. She certainly didn't To publish it. And I had to go away and say, well, now what? My dream, I'm at the end of my sabbatical, my dream's gone. I could, of course, have submitted to other publishers, and it's very possible I would have found someone to publish it, but it just felt that that would be the wrong thing to do.


### Passage: Walking away from a French proofread [48:23–50:08, 291 words]

Note (AI): A concrete example of applying post-sabbatical boundaries and managing perfectionism in client work.

Louise Rapley, guest [48:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2903):
> Very much so. You know, I found, for example, last year I was offered a project. It was a proofread of a French textbook. And I thought, so now I can use my skills, and, and I absolutely adore French and really miss, I, I used to love teaching French. I really miss using it in my life. So I thought, oh, fantastic, it's a textbook, but I can draw on a skill that I enjoy. Well, I, I, it actually didn't work out, and after a couple of days, I had to say, I'm sorry, I'm not able to do this. I'm not able to perform your brief. This is my very bad habit of perfectionism kicking in. Whenever I was working on a manuscript, I would take it as my responsibility to transform it into something magnificent, no matter how badly written it was in the beginning, or how not suited to purpose it was. And with this particular book, this French pre-free, they just wanted me to do a final check for errors before the book went off to be printed, and I couldn't. My, my teacher self was there, as well as my French self, and it was going, hang on, this exercise is at a far too higher level. The book's been at a kind of baby level, and then suddenly there's one chapter that is at high school level. This can't work. They weren't interested in hearing that. They just wanted me to find the mistake, the spelling mistakes. I couldn't do it. And I had to accept that, a, a very big, lesson for me, my perfectionism. I have to learn to harness it when it's required, and in this case, it wasn't required.


### Quotes

> "I'm a woman living in Cape Town in the second half of my life. And my sabbatical, which officially ended a couple of years ago, Probably the point that I can mark as the threshold between the first half of my life and what I now see as the second half."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=106)

> "I could exist in my head instead of in my feelings."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=303)

> "What would make your soul feel free?"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=744)

> "It just takes time, and it takes, it takes as long as it takes, unfortunately."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [15:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=910)

> "I didn't know what to do with freedom. I didn't know what freedom was,"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=941)

> "I didn't have the awareness of my own enoughness to do that."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [24:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1455)

> "I found my power through expressing my sexuality."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [30:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1853)

> "this kind of transformation takes headspace. It takes reflective space."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2192)

> "I needed, I needed a gap. I needed a space to let it all be."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [37:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2255)

> "I'd come alive, and I couldn't shove myself back into a box,"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [43:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2596)

> "Whenever I hear the word just, it usually means I'm about to make a big mistake."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2828)

> "I'd ruined so many projects for myself, edit, while I was doing textbooks, because I would get this megalomaniacal thing of, right, now I must make this into the best ever book. And my perfectionism would come out, and I would find myself Putting in far more time than I was supposed to be, which meant that my fee per hour was dropping to really pathetic rate."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [50:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3028)

> "Just to say that the trajectory of the first half of my life did not promise me this magnificence, this wondrous experience, and I am so grateful for that."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · [53:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3198)


### Claims

> "In 2020, my partner and I had the most amazing trip to South America planned, and we had booked everything, and everything was paid for, and then COVID happened."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=144)

> "what he said was that he wanted to take the money that had been refunded to us from the holiday and use it to create a space for me to take a sabbatical."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=196)

> "I was brought up with this conditioned idea that I must always look after myself because if I didn't, nobody else would. One of the worst things one could be to the family I grew up in was a kept woman."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Guilt and privilege · [03:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=222)

> "first part of my professional life, I was a high school French teacher, so that was a seventeen-year period, and then this second seventeen-year period, I'd been a textbook editor,"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Reinventing a career · [04:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=271)

> "textbook editing had seemed perfect for me because I could just dive into it. I could exist in my head instead of in my feelings. I could numb myself to what was going on in my life and I could just work and work and work."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Overwork and numbing · [04:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=298)

> "I had the really bad habit of not being able to stop because when I stopped working, I could actually feel how exhausted I was, and I didn't want to feel that."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Overwork and numbing · [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=382)

> "I posted some of those pieces on Facebook. I got very warm responses to them. People talked about how they appreciated my vulnerability and my honesty and my willingness to share very private experiences."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=514)

> "And I said, well, okay, six months, because I was still terrified of being this kept woman, wanted to minimize the time that I would, I would have somebody else paying for me to exist. And he said, no, minimum of nine months."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [09:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=588)

> "he said to me, no, no, don't try and, and do your sabbatical the way you've done your whole life. So for, eight o'clock tomorrow morning, I sit down my laptop and I, I start writing. He said, no, have some fun with this. What would you like to do on your first morning of sabbatical?"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=664)

> "I was so grateful for that, that way of moving into it, not you're replacing one set, one rigid construct that gives you no freedom with another rigid construct, but rather What would make your soul feel free?"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [12:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=730)

> "So I think you have to not immediately rush into something. I, I, I definitely found that, you know, that you shouldn't just come, rush into something else. first just, because your, because your body needs to, I think, relax first, and then your creativity will start flowing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=764)

> "Whenever I tried to be prescriptive, right, today I'm going to write about this, I would look at it, what I'd produced after a couple of hours and think, this is rubbish. This bores me."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [13:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=830)

> "And my partner said to me, for the first month, I was trying to relax. I was trying to, you could see I was trying to relax, but only by the second month that I actually looked like I was actually relaxed."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=868)

> "I had so much freedom, and I didn't know what to do with freedom. I didn't know what freedom was, and I found myself wishing that I could just have a boring old textbook to edit."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Overwork and numbing · [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=938)

> "And then I would feel huge amount of guilt that I was wasting this time that I'd been gifted. I also, I don't know if you had this experience, but I felt a lot of guilt about the privilege of being able to take a sabbatical."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Guilt and privilege · [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1047)

> "for me, it, it, it was ten years in the making for me to be able to leave my corporate job. So there was a lot of, so it was very deliberate. You know, I was going to, with the next, cycle of commodity downturn, I was going to take a, a voluntary severance package."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Guilt and privilege · [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1063)

> "I think that you have to give yourself permission. To be able to be on a sabbatical and use it for what you intended to use it for. And sometimes using, using it for rest is okay, because that's what a sabbatical for me is about. It's about curiosity."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Guilt and privilege · [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1159)

> "very conservative family that didn't talk about feelings or encourage creativity or difference. And so I was very set in that box, very earnest."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Inner child work · [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1240)

> "And I, I also got to a point where it's like, I don't actually have to live that life. I can, I can be in the world in a different way. And that's what this basketball is about, is to find a different way to be in the world."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [22:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1335)

> "so my sabbatical was supposed to be nine months long, and at the end of nine months, I had a rough framework of my memoir. Well, I had a first draft of it, I guess I could say, but it wasn't, it, it didn't feel right."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1353)

> "I didn't have the self-respect to do that. I didn't have the awareness of my own enoughness to do that. I, I was just desperate to be loved."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [24:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1452)

> "And, I stuck around in that marriage for more than 17 years."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [25:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1528)

> "For me, the really important part of my memoir was the, the bulk of it, say four fifths of it, which was my journey of healing in the relationship that I was now in."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [28:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1730)

> "during my sabbatical, I started dreaming intensely and vividly and, often in very, very disturbing ways. And so all of these experiences from the past came up again."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [29:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1773)

> "my experience in the last 10 years has been that I found my power through expressing my sexuality. And so when I was Brought up in a way that didn't permit that, it cut me off at the knees."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [30:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1849)

> "I'd found that from the, the smaller pieces of writing that I'd started doing the years before, that was how I expressed myself best in writing. That was how I processed my experiences."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [31:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1899)

> "because what I discovered Was a part of myself that I call little Louise, at the child me. So, as a kid, I had some stuff happening that was, that was really big to handle."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Inner child work · [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=1971)

> "And Little Louise sort of found her ways of coping. Number one, numbing, go into head, think, don't feel, catastrophize, over-dramatize to try and get attention."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Inner child work · [33:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2031)

> "I was in a conversation last week, and I could suddenly feel little Louise come over me. Adult Louise had disappeared. I could feel the panic and the, I just wanted to burst into tears."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Inner child work · [35:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2114)

> "I had been doing some, some serious inner work, for a few years, but this kind of transformation takes headspace. It takes reflective space. It takes being able to have a night where you barely sleep."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2185)

> "But having the urgency of work removed meant I wasn't panicking at two o'clock in the morning and saying, I'll have to go to sleep."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [37:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2223)

> "The reader's report was quite devastating to read. her feel, the publisher's feeling was, well, she summed it up, this is not my cup of tea."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Memoir writing as healing · [40:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2418)

> "in January of the following year, I sat down to go back into work, but I was a different person. There was no way I could go back to editing textbooks. I'd come alive, and I couldn't shove myself back into a box,"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Reinventing a career · [43:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2584)

> "And then I thought, hang on, I'm actually a really good writer and editor. I have experience qualifications. They might be in the textbook industry, but pretty sure some of those can be translated into other areas."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Reinventing a career · [44:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2643)

> "Whenever I hear the word just, it usually means I'm about to make a big mistake. You know, like I'll just do one more. And so I stop."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Overwork and numbing · [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2828)

> "This is my very bad habit of perfectionism kicking in. Whenever I was working on a manuscript, I would take it as my responsibility to transform it into something magnificent, no matter how badly written it was in the beginning,"
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Boundaries and perfectionism · [48:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2939)

> "I had to accept that, a, a very big, lesson for me, my perfectionism. I have to learn to harness it when it's required, and in this case, it wasn't required."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Boundaries and perfectionism · [49:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=2995)

> "Putting in far more time than I was supposed to be, which meant that my fee per hour was dropping to really pathetic rate. and then I would get angry and resentful that I wasn't being paid properly. It actually was my fault."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Boundaries and perfectionism · [50:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3046)

> "So that is the possibility and that is, this is what it would cost, or I could just do what you want, which is a straightforward copy edit. He went for the copy edit and that is what I'm doing."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Boundaries and perfectionism · [51:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3082)

> "Who I am has changed. How I set boundaries has changed. So it, it kind of feels Even though I'm now working again, kind of feels like I'm on holiday in so many senses."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Reinventing a career · [52:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3155)

> "the trajectory of the first half of my life did not promise me this magnificence, this wondrous experience, and I am so grateful for that."
> — Louise Rapley, guest · topic: Sabbatical as life threshold · [53:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1490278_high.mp3#t=3200)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A story of personal healing, self-discovery, and a bold new way of being. Episode 7 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, freelance writer and editor Louise Rapley opens up about her transformative sabbatical. During this time, Louise transitioned from a textbook editor to writing her memoir, confronting her past traumas, and embracing self-discovery. She shares how the sabbatical allowed her to heal, set boundaries, connect with, and understand her inner child. Though her memoir remains unpublished, the experience led to profound personal growth and a new perspective on work-life balance. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #032 The Thoughtful Time-Out | Gargi Mishra

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/032-the-thoughtful-time-out/
- Date: 2024-09-23 (as at 2024-09-23)
- Guest: Gargi Mishra
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Intentional career breaks, Burnout and overwork, Career pivots and reinvention, Foresight and futurism, Self-care habits, Women returning to work, Financial planning for breaks
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1484836
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3

### About the guest: Gargi Mishra

- foresight practitioner
- Trained geologist and Kimberlite petrologist who spent twenty-two years in mining, then pivoted into innovation and digital transformation and became a futurist. She was recently resident futurist or foresight manager for De Beers.

In their own words:

> "And that's what made me from a trained geologist, then I become a Kimberlite Petrologist, which is more, technical space, and then pivoting to the innovation and new technology space," [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=68)

> "I accidentally become more like a futurist, which is foresight practitioner, which I am now, where what I do is read the emerging signals, what's coming in space of technology, society, sustainability, and then forecast what does it mean for the future." [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=96)

> "And since I spent twenty-two years in mining, for me it's very natural to think of What does it mean for the mining?" [01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=112)

> "Recently, I finished working as a resident futurist or foresight manager for DBears. We are, I was tracking trend across economy, society, politics, technology, and thinking about what does it mean for the diamond as industry." [02:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=132)

> "One very much focused in mining as exploration geologist, working across operation Angola, DRC, Botswana, and then pivoted, to the innovation space." [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=202)

> "Even if you see my whole life, my career pivoted every two to three years, because if I, I keep doing, if I enjoy and I'm learning, but then I pivot to the next." [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1562)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani, who is on his own sabbatical after 25 years in corporate, talks with Gargi Mishra about career breaks. Gargi is a geologist turned futurist. She took an unplanned sabbatical early in COVID after months of 18-hour days, when her young son suggested buying her a bed. She describes using the break to reskill in sustainability and to become more selective about work, which led her into a foresight role at De Beers. She also covers family reactions, the self-care habits she kept, her current intentional mini break, and advice on planning finances before stepping away.

**Key ideas**

- Gargi describes her first sabbatical as triggered by overwork. She was up 18 hours a day for over nine months, and her son's remark about buying her a bed made her stop. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=177) [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=270))
- Gargi says the break taught her patience and the ability to say no to opportunities that do not connect to her direction. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=511) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554))
- Gargi argues that a new career after a break may not carry the same path or recognition. You start rebuilding yourself as a brand, like an intern. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=772) [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=778) [13:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=799))
- The host frames the choice as deciding whose race you are running. Rejoining the same race means losing ground. ([12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=726) [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=744))
- Gargi observes that women in mining used to vanish after breaks. Companies such as BHP, Rio Tinto and Google are now welcoming them back. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=572) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=645) [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=671))
- Gargi keeps self-care habits after the break: exercise at least four days a week, online yoga, long walks, and technology to track water and walking. ([18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1147))
- Gargi advises financial planning before any break or startup, with a six-month to one-year buffer. ([27:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1659) [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1696))

**Lessons**

- Gargi suggests using a break for deliberate upskilling and reflection, not only rest, and accepting only roles that speak to you. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=370) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437) [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=464))
- Gargi warns against saying yes to everything. Aligned opportunities are worth waiting for, even if a big offer appears. ([08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=511) [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554))
- The host and Gargi both stress protecting health and personal time after returning, for example by keeping healthy time in the calendar. ([17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1026) [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1217))
- Gargi recommends a financial buffer of six months to a year before leaving work. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1683))
- Gargi says that having done a break once made it easier and braver to take another. ([25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1502) [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1516))

**Who it's for:** Professionals, especially women in mining or corporate roles, who feel burnt out or stuck and are weighing a sabbatical, a career pivot or a return to work after time away.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Gargi spent twenty-two years in mining. ([01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=112))
- She was up for 18 hours a day for more than nine months before her first break. ([04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247))
- Her son was just turning three when he suggested buying her a bed. ([04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259))
- She spent seven to eight months upskilling in sustainability and decarbonization. ([07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437))
- She is writing two chapters on foresight for an upcoming textbook. ([02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=156))
- Her career pivoted every two to three years. ([26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1562))
- She recommends a six-month to one-year financial buffer before a break. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What made Gargi Mishra take a sabbatical?**
A: She had been up 18 hours a day for more than nine months during COVID. When her three-year-old son suggested buying her a bed because he never saw her sleep, she decided to stop. ([02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=177) [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247) [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259) [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=270))

**Q: Did she resign or get retrenched?**
A: She resigned. Her company was restructuring and offered a retrenchment instead, which gave her a financial cushion for the unplanned break. ([05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=333))

**Q: What did she do during her career break?**
A: She spent seven to eight months upskilling in sustainability and decarbonization through online courses, and deliberately accepted only roles that spoke to her. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=370) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437))

**Q: What books helped her during the break?**
A: She read Robin Sharma's Everyday Hero and an excerpt of Shelley Paxton's Soulbbatical. Everyday Hero showed her she did not need to be an executive leader to be a hero. ([09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=572) [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=589) [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=597))

**Q: Is it harder for women to return after a career break in mining?**
A: Gargi says women traditionally vanished after breaks. In the last five to six years, organisations such as BHP, Rio Tinto and Google have been welcoming them back. ([10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=645) [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=671))

**Q: How do you avoid slipping back into overwork after a sabbatical?**
A: Gargi exercises at least four days a week, does online yoga, takes long walks, and uses alarms and tracking for water and walking. The host suggests keeping healthy time in the calendar and designing work around it. ([18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113) [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1147) [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1217))

**Q: How much money should you save before taking a break?**
A: Gargi advises at least a six-month to one-year buffer. She adds that a startup will not pay you within three months. ([27:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1659) [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1696))

**Q: Why is she on a mini break now?**
A: Her organisation was restructuring. Rather than take a misaligned alternate role, she is seeking the right opportunity in strategy, foresight and academia while writing textbook chapters. ([02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=156) [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1323) [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1382) [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1465))


### Passage: The trigger for her first intentional sabbatical [02:57–05:12, 394 words]

Note (AI): Gargi's own account of working 18-hour days during lockdown and the moment her young son made her stop.

Gargi Mishra, guest [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=177):
> I did, actually the very first intentional break I took just when the COVID started, and that was the, like, deliberate sabbatical. And why did you take that break? So that's very interesting because when I took that break, just before that, I was not planning to take a break. I was in my flow because if you see my career is divi- can be divided into two decades. One very much focused in mining as exploration geologist, working across operation Angola, DRC, Botswana, and then pivoted, to the innovation space. So when I took the break, pretty much I was on my Like a full force flow. I was getting the traction, I was getting the work. So I was not thinking about the break that time because it was my time to shine in that space, which I just found my new niche, which was digital transformation. But then the COVID hit and I realized most of the companies and organization and as a whole, we were not prepared to understand what does it mean for a new world. And especially it took a lot of toll on women, especially working women with the family. And I realized I was working for 18 hour plus. When I say working, it's family work and professional work, but I was up for 18 hours for more than nine months. And then one day, just near my birthday time, my son, which was just turning three, he proposed that, we should buy a bed for me because he never saw me sleeping. And that was something like a trigger for me that I don't want to be a role model for my child who thinks that sleeping is That taking rest is bad. And he used to sometimes, say like that, that I don't want to sleep because mama never sleep. And that trigger just made me think this is not the way to pursue. And especially in lockdown, there was not much support system around. It made me to pause and say, okay, I'm going to take a break because we didn't know when the lockdown will over. So it's kind of a indefinite break and just pause. Okay, been there, done that. Now it's my time to just focus on my family and myself. And that was the reason I took a break.


### Passage: From rest to reskilling and finding the De Beers role [06:10–08:14, 387 words]

Note (AI): Shows how the break moved from rest to deliberate upskilling and selective job seeking, which led to her foresight role.

Gargi Mishra, guest [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=370):
> Initially, when I took the break, because it was just triggered with this conversation that you don't take a rest. And then when I look at myself at the mirror, I was looking tired, very old. And I realized I'm just like a robot, just ticking box things. So that time there was no so what moment for me. It was just, okay, I'm going to stop whatever I'm doing so that I can be with just 24 hour focusing on my family, my child, and remember what he's doing or saying. And then after few weeks and month, because if you are work colleague, you've been to work, you always start thinking. And then I, I start getting this itch that, okay, this work is good. I'm enjoying being full-time mom, but I need to do something else. So I start thinking about, was it really a good decision to take a break? But then I again, and that was my reflection moment. And then I sat down, I said, no, I needed this break. I don't want it to keep on doing what I was doing. Rather think about why I took this break. And it can't be just because I need to take care of the family and house. It has to be beyond that. And that's where I decided for seven, eight months, I'm going to focus Only on, upskilling myself into sustainability, decarbonization. So I did few course, online courses, but then also being very deliberate that I'm not going to accept any role coming my way or apply intentionally unless the role speak to me. And then start thinking about every day where as I was learning what I actually enjoy most. And I realized from last ten years, even though I was doing hands-on digital transformation roadmap, benchmarking, implementing, the part I enjoy most was looking into future trends and then bringing back them to life. So, but then I didn't have a word for it, what it really mean. And then I saw the advertisement by De Beers. It was pretty much the job which I was like enlisted, I want to do this. So it was very good alignment, and that was the reason I said, okay, this is the job, speak to me, so let's go back.


### Passage: Books, trends and women coming back after breaks [09:32–11:36, 386 words]

Note (AI): Covers the reading that sustained her and her view on how the industry now treats women who return after a break.

Gargi Mishra, guest [09:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=572):
> Yes. like, because my break was so sudden. And because I love to read, I love to research, so I start reading about who other people have done this, or what are the framework or things I can apply. So coincidentally, I came across two books. One was Robin Sharma, Everyday Hero, and that book was kind of give me strength and be the pillar that whatever I'm doing, I can be a hero. I don't have to be executive leader to be a hero. so that gave me kind of a comfort and strength and bravery to do what I do. And then also I read, not necessarily the full book, but I read a script of the book from the Shelley Paxton, Soulbbatical. And there were a lot of articles going around the same time. So that helped me to understand I'm not the only woman or only person taking this break. And because I love to track trends, I also start seeing there was this emerging trend in COVID work from anywhere, this no-bed lifestyle, and then millennial and Gen Z, how they work digitally, you know, they work few Instead they take a time off for their, what they want to do in life. So those things kind of inspired me that I'm not the only one doing it, and it's okay to take a break. Because traditionally as a woman, especially as Indian woman breaking into mine, it was always like that, if you go off, you're gone, you vanished. And I've seen some of the very successful women actually disappear, and one time in my life I used to actually say, we can put a billboard of the, you know, successful women who win top hundred women in mine, but where they are, and they take a break, and they somehow never bounce back. But in last five to six year, we see the different trend. Women are coming back, organization are welcoming, either it's BHP, Rio Tinto, even Google. This cross industry pollination, giving opportunity to you can take a break. So I knew that if I go off and I decide not to come back or back, it won't be a obstacle for me. I guess industry won't be stopping me. It will be my own decision.


### Passage: Self-care habits kept after the break [18:33–19:58, 257 words]

Note (AI): Practical habits (exercise minimums, alarms, tracking water and walking) she uses to avoid falling back into overwork.

Gargi Mishra, guest [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113):
> Making sure I exercise, whatever happen, so try to do all the seven days. I started, practicing yoga exercise, so joined the online classes. So because it's online, you have to show up, so being committed. So initially, like for example, in the break, I'm doing seven days. Now it can be four days, three days, but being committed that it's not going to go below four days, making sure I go for long walks. So those things which I picked up, and then also being very aware if I'm skipping meal, it's not suppo- like earlier when I used to work, sometime it will go hours without thinking about water, food, now being deliberate, putting those alarms, kind of using technology. So I track, how much I walk, how much I drink water. So using technology to keep me on track of what I was not doing. And it's interesting because these technologies were there, but it's just you were not aware of until you hit that rock bottom. So now being more aware of how I'm feeling, practicing mindfulness, and all those tools were around us. People talk about it, even, you know, if somebody say, will say, yes, be mindful of how you think, how you behave, how you eat, read, all those things. But now I think I've become more deliberate about it and being committed to myself that, yes, I'm going to do exercise, whatever. And, and funny enough, now I find the time because it's, I raise the awareness about it.


### Passage: Family push back to work and the current mini break [22:03–24:33, 467 words]

Note (AI): Explains why she returned to work, and why she chose a focused mini break over taking a misaligned role during a restructure.

Gargi Mishra, guest [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1323):
> I was pretty much into mindset that this is where I hang my boot, I'm not, never coming back. And the one reason I came back, of course, the time gave me thinking what I want to do, but then another push came again from the family in a different way. My mother-in-law, interestingly, she's, she and my husband were saying to me that they, I shouldn't fall into that trap that I want to work, but now because I made a decision not to work for family, I shouldn't go back, because then I will set a wrong example for my son. He will believe that this is the way women should be. So think carefully, trade carefully, do you really don't want to work, or you now want to settle? So don't go. Going to sacrifice mode, stay true to yourself, and I think that also helped me to rethink, and pivot me to this, space. Are you on another mini break right now? No, it's not a mini break in a, say, which I did for the health last time. It's more about the whole organization was going into restructuring, and I thought, do I, and, and as you know, when restructuring happen in any big organization, there are a lot of several mini alternate roles appear, which appeal on that time if you are in that space, but then I wanted to be Since I came this far, I built this thing, I wanted to be in the next space, which is a connecting dot to my career, rather than just opting for another job where, and because if I go for a job which is, I opt for it, but it was not aligned with what I built so far, it's very easy, I will fall into the trap where I was in, you know, five years, six years back. So I said, no, I'm, I'm taking a mini break, but it's not that I'm not actively seeking the opportunity. So in that way, it's different, but I'm very focused on what kind of opportunity I want, and then I also want to start Kind of pivot to the academic career. So in that way, seeking those opportunity, how to go and speak about foresight again. So I took a pause from public speaking. So I start doing some of that. Then I got the opportunity to contribute for two chapters for foresight for a upcoming textbook. So I thought it's a good time to start learning those skill, how to write better. So investing some time to learn writing a skill for academic writing and all. So it's intentional mini break, but it's not that I'm taking a six month or three months break. It's more about seeking the right opportunity.


### Passage: Advice before taking a break [27:39–29:23, 312 words]

Note (AI): Her direct advice to people considering a break or a startup: build a financial buffer, plan ahead and expect personal change.

Gargi Mishra, guest [27:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1659):
> So I do advise other people when they say, I'm go- it's not going well, it's toxic environment, or I'm not feeling good in this place, I want to break because you did it, or some other person did it. So especially for young, professionals when they say to me, or they just want to be entrepreneur because it's cool to be, then I always advise that before you commit, make sure you financially plan for it. So at least you should have a six month or a one year buffer. You can plan your, start thinking about the lifestyle and how you're going to sustain yourself in that environment. Because even if you're starting a startup, you need to understand it's not going to start giving you paycheck from next, like three months. So learning about where, what you're going into, but then also expecting that this will bring change, not just you and, financially, it will also will change you as a person. So how you understand that and go into it, but Think carefully. In my case, even though my sabbatical, the first, the, the one which I call official sabbatical was very, sudden, but I was pivoting myself every few years and few months. So somehow I was kind of used to going in and out of these cycles and going to the different career. But still, if I look back, I will say it's always good to plan ahead, like deep think. And I think it's everybody is different, so everybody will have a different point. Interesting part is when I was listening to you is that we all kind of arrive on the same point, which is what you want to be, what you want to do with your life, and, with whom you want to share maximum time. And that's everybody's arrived to that point.


### Quotes

> "he proposed that, we should buy a bed for me because he never saw me sleeping."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=265)

> "And I realized I'm just like a robot, just ticking box things."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=382)

> "Break taught me how to say no to the things which are not aligned,"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554)

> "I don't have to be executive leader to be a hero."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [09:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=597)

> "if you go off, you're gone, you vanished."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=651)

> "But it depends on whose race you're running."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=744)

> "we are intern in our, somewhere we are always intern, and I'd like to learn something new."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=778)

> "It's called that I don't have to opt for what being offered. I can just wait for the right time, right opportunity, or build my own opportunity"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1516)

> "your work is not your life, and it doesn't define you."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [26:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1583)

> "I think also being, becoming a mother helped me, because then you start recognizing your impact around, you know, others, because when you are just a professional, independent professional or single professional, the way you see society is different, but when you become parent, you start seeing your imprint differently"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [26:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1598)

> "make sure you financially plan for it. So at least you should have a six month or a one year buffer."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · [28:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1683)

> "you need to come out of it a different person than would, that went into the sabbatical."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1770)


### Claims

> "And that's what made me from a trained geologist, then I become a Kimberlite Petrologist, which is more, technical space, and then pivoting to the innovation and new technology space,"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=68)

> "I accidentally become more like a futurist, which is foresight practitioner, which I am now, where what I do is read the emerging signals, what's coming in space of technology, society, sustainability, and then forecast what does it mean for the future."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [01:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=96)

> "And since I spent twenty-two years in mining, for me it's very natural to think of What does it mean for the mining?"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [01:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=112)

> "Recently, I finished working as a resident futurist or foresight manager for DBears. We are, I was tracking trend across economy, society, politics, technology, and thinking about what does it mean for the diamond as industry."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [02:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=132)

> "So I'm writing two chapters on foresight for a textbook, upcoming textbook, where I am, writing and focusing on strategy and foresight, how they bridge together, and then also role of foresight in industry 5.0."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=156)

> "One very much focused in mining as exploration geologist, working across operation Angola, DRC, Botswana, and then pivoted, to the innovation space."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=202)

> "And I realized I was working for 18 hour plus. When I say working, it's family work and professional work, but I was up for 18 hours for more than nine months."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Burnout and overwork · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=247)

> "And then one day, just near my birthday time, my son, which was just turning three, he proposed that, we should buy a bed for me because he never saw me sleeping."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Burnout and overwork · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=259)

> "And that was something like a trigger for me that I don't want to be a role model for my child who thinks that sleeping is That taking rest is bad."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Burnout and overwork · [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=270)

> "rather than taking it as a resignation, they offer me, why not I take a retrenchment, which unwittingly helped me that time that because I didn't plan for this break, I didn't plan for my finances, but at least it gave me some cushion to prepare for what's coming and what's ahead."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Financial planning for breaks · [05:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=333)

> "And that's where I decided for seven, eight months, I'm going to focus Only on, upskilling myself into sustainability, decarbonization. So I did few course, online courses, but then also being very deliberate that I'm not going to accept any role coming my way or apply intentionally unless the role speak to me."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=437)

> "And I realized from last ten years, even though I was doing hands-on digital transformation roadmap, benchmarking, implementing, the part I enjoy most was looking into future trends and then bringing back them to life."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Foresight and futurism · [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=464)

> "gave me confident that what I'm thinking is there is a niche demand for it and not to get desperate and just, seek the work, rather wait for the right opportunity where I can fulfill what I enjoy, but then also I learn something new."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [08:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=511)

> "Break taught me how to say no to the things which are not aligned, not to jump even if it looks like a very big opportunity, but if it's not a connecting dot."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=554)

> "One was Robin Sharma, Everyday Hero, and that book was kind of give me strength and be the pillar that whatever I'm doing, I can be a hero. I don't have to be executive leader to be a hero."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=589)

> "Because traditionally as a woman, especially as Indian woman breaking into mine, it was always like that, if you go off, you're gone, you vanished."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Women returning to work · [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=645)

> "But in last five to six year, we see the different trend. Women are coming back, organization are welcoming, either it's BHP, Rio Tinto, even Google."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Women returning to work · [11:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=671)

> "somebody said it very, very nicely in one of the earlier episodes around whose race are you running, who are you competing against."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [12:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=726)

> "So even in interview when they asked me, sure you want to do this because of your years of experience, and I said, we are intern in our, somewhere we are always intern, and I'd like to learn something new."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=772)

> "and that's what also understanding that when you take a break, that your new, new career might not be, have a same path or same recognition which you have, because now you start building yourself again as a brand. So you will start from the beginning."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [13:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=799)

> "And that was very, very clear for me as I didn't want to spend my time in that way, and then decided that I need to redesign a different type of lifestyle for me, which aligns more with my heart."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [13:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=839)

> "I'm a big proponent of if you're going to take a break, you must use it for deep inner reflection work, deep self work, and understand really how you do want to spend the rest of your time."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional career breaks · [15:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=925)

> "So I was very deliberate about, and especially I think post COVID help because companies become more flexible. So it was easy for me to plan my work around and keep my personal time, family time."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Self-care habits · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1026)

> "So understanding why, even though I came back to corporate, I didn't come back for the same purpose. I came back more about introducing that future thinking."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [17:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1055)

> "Making sure I exercise, whatever happen, so try to do all the seven days. I started, practicing yoga exercise, so joined the online classes. So because it's online, you have to show up, so being committed."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Self-care habits · [18:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1113)

> "sometime it will go hours without thinking about water, food, now being deliberate, putting those alarms, kind of using technology. So I track, how much I walk, how much I drink water. So using technology to keep me on track of what I was not doing."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Self-care habits · [19:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1147)

> "And I think the trick is then to keep that time in the calendar and then design your work around it, you know, so that you still can be a, a healthy, highly functional human being."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-care habits · [20:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1217)

> "My family was very supportive because I'm working since I was like twelve, thirteen year old. I used to work for my dad for, he was in publication, so I used to run events and make money."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [21:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1269)

> "But my professional friends were bit shocked because for them it was like, how can you just take a break? You're just consulting this career started, you're getting a lot of recognition in that space."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [21:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1287)

> "My mother-in-law, interestingly, she's, she and my husband were saying to me that they, I shouldn't fall into that trap that I want to work, but now because I made a decision not to work for family, I shouldn't go back, because then I will set a wrong example for my son."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Women returning to work · [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1339)

> "It's more about the whole organization was going into restructuring, and I thought, do I, and, and as you know, when restructuring happen in any big organization, there are a lot of several mini alternate roles appear,"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1382)

> "So it's intentional mini break, but it's not that I'm taking a six month or three months break. It's more about seeking the right opportunity."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1465)

> "And I think it, it bravely came with the experience because I did it once. For me, it was easy. If it was my first time, I might not be as brave as you are."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Intentional career breaks · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1502)

> "Even if you see my whole life, my career pivoted every two to three years, because if I, I keep doing, if I enjoy and I'm learning, but then I pivot to the next."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [26:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1562)

> "your work is not your life, and it doesn't define you. It's, you, you should separate your own personal persona and your work persona, and it's not often easy when we start our career,"
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Career pivots and reinvention · [26:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1583)

> "then I always advise that before you commit, make sure you financially plan for it. So at least you should have a six month or a one year buffer."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Financial planning for breaks · [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1679)

> "Because even if you're starting a startup, you need to understand it's not going to start giving you paycheck from next, like three months."
> — Gargi Mishra, guest · topic: Financial planning for breaks · [28:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1696)

> "It needs, you need to come out of it a different person than would, that went into the sabbatical."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Intentional career breaks · [29:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1484836_high.mp3#t=1770)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

From overwork to self-care and career pivots. Episode 6 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Dr Gargi Mishra about taking career breaks or sabbaticals. Gargi shares her experience of taking an intentional break during the COVID-19 pandemic when she realized she was overworking and neglecting her health. During the break, she re-skilled herself and eventually pivoted to being a futurist. She discusses the importance of planning finances, being patient for the right opportunity, setting boundaries between work and personal life, and practicing self-care habits like exercise and mindfulness. When this episode was recorded, Gargi was on a mini-break seeking opportunities aligned with her interests in strategy, foresight, and academia. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #031 Intentional Interludes | Thea Weeks

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/031-intentional-interludes/
- Date: 2024-09-12 (as at 2024-09-12)
- Guest: Thea Weeks
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Career breaks and sabbaticals, Burnout and warning signs, Hearing loss and disability, Parenthood and work, NGO work and giving back, Hybrid work and flexibility, Planning finances and re-entry, Mentors and coaches
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1480257
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3

### About the guest: Thea Weeks

- environmental, social, and governance lead · MPI Mott Africa · Cape Town
- Took three career breaks: working for an NGO for 5 years, focusing on her new baby, and adapting to life and work after losing hearing in one ear. Started in the extractive industry; now focuses largely on renewable energy.

In their own words:

> "I'm the environmental, social, and governance lead for MPI Mott Africa. We are predominantly an engineering and development firm with a passion for development and infrastructure development in Africa." [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=71)

> "So although I started mostly in the extractive industry, oiling, mine, and gas, it's evolved over the years, and I focus largely on renewable energy at the moment." [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=102)

> "So I then, over a period of six months, ensured that I train people nationally, that we do training the trainer, that we build capacity skills, we set up a whole office, a whole division, we appointed the first ombudsman." [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=679)

> "So at the time, I received that award at this assembly of all government departments, so everybody saw this golden career, and here this woman comes three months later," [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1158)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani, on her own sabbatical after 25 years in corporate, talks to Thea Weeks, ESG lead at MPI Mott Africa, about her three career breaks: volunteering in the NGO space, time with her newborn son, and adjusting after losing hearing following an illness in Cameroon. Thea describes why she resigned rather than taking sabbaticals, how people reacted, what each break taught her, how she negotiated flexibility on return, how she reads burnout warning signs, and how to plan finances and a soft re-entry.

**Key ideas**

- Thea argues you cannot give to others from an empty cup; she says she saw her cup emptying before falling ill and did not respond. ([22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1353) [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1424) [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1448) [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1482))
- Thea chose to resign and return on her own terms for each break rather than take a formal sabbatical or maternity leave. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=335) [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=398) [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=447))
- Thea says her hearing loss led her to focus on communication and to view diversity, equity and inclusion through lived experience. ([30:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1817) [30:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1826))
- Thea describes negotiating more leave days and flexibility instead of remuneration, and running a hybrid team built on trust. ([33:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2035) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2060) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2121))
- Thea lists burnout warning signs such as living for weekends and taking longer on mundane tasks, and urges regular smaller breaks. ([37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2278) [38:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2291) [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2355) [41:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2463))
- Thea recommends saving ahead, allowing a real rest period, then realigning and staggering the return to work. ([43:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2608) [43:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2621) [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2676))
- Thea says both she and Petro benefit from mentors and coaches for different parts of life. ([45:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2727) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2761))

**Thea's approach to planning a sabbatical and re-entry** ([43:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2608) [43:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2621) [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2676))

1. Plan ahead financially: put aside savings, from three months' to a year's salary.
2. Take a rest period where you do not start performing or doing.
3. Slowly build recovery and realignment: decide who you want to be in the next phase.
4. Have a soft re-entry: stagger hours and build up to your sweet spot.

**Lessons**

- Thea's experience suggests acting on warning signs before your body forces a stop; she links her Cameroon illness to burnout. ([13:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=803) [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1448) [24:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1454))
- Thea advises spreading leave across the year, for example quarterly breaks or extending public-holiday weekends, rather than saving it all for year-end. ([39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2355) [41:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2463))
- Thea says to bring break lessons back into work deliberately, such as negotiating flexibility into contracts. ([34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2060) [36:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2208))
- Thea recommends asking specialists for help when you don't know something: phone a friend, even cold calling. ([15:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=944) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2761))
- Thea says trust your own judgement despite resistance from colleagues, family and friends. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=335) [20:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1235) [20:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1254))

**Who it's for:** Professionals considering a career break or sabbatical, parents weighing time out with a newborn, people adapting to a sudden disability mid-career, and managers designing flexible or hybrid work arrangements.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Thea took three career breaks: NGO work, time with her newborn son, and adjusting to hearing loss. ([02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=121))
- Thea lost hearing in her left ear after travelling back from Cameroon while severely ill. ([03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=230))
- Thea's employer called with work when her son was five days old. ([07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=468))
- On returning after her son, Thea limited herself to a 25 hours a week commitment. ([17:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1028))
- Thea says Marlene founded the first woman-owned engineering and development company in South Africa about 27 years ago. ([33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2007))
- Thea's team typically comes into the office two days a week. ([35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2121))
- Before her hearing loss, Thea engaged audiences of up to five thousand people. ([04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=257))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Should I resign or ask for a sabbatical to take a career break?**
A: Thea resigned for all three of her breaks so she could return on her own terms, including skipping maternity leave. Petro notes that in a restructure asking for time off signals you want to leave anyway. ([06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=398) [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=447) [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=558))

**Q: What are the warning signs of burnout?**
A: Thea lists dreading Monday, living for weekends, taking an hour to write a mundane letter, brain fog, tiredness and more frequent flu or sick days. ([37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2278) [38:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2291))

**Q: How can I avoid burnout without a long sabbatical?**
A: Thea suggests taking time off each quarter, changing your physical environment, taking Friday afternoons or half days, and using public holidays to create longer weekends. ([37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2278) [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2355) [41:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2463))

**Q: How do I prepare financially for a sabbatical?**
A: Thea advises planning ahead and saving anything from three months' to a year's salary. Petro worked with a financial advisor to check she could afford time off. ([43:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2621) [45:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2727))

**Q: How should I return to work after a long break?**
A: Thea recommends a soft re-entry: stagger your return, commit to a set number of hours for a year or two, and build up to your sweet spot rather than going straight to full-time. ([43:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2608) [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2676))

**Q: How did losing hearing affect Thea's career?**
A: She felt her career had ended and grieved, then rebuilt through document review and data work, and later focused more on communication and inclusion. ([04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=257) [17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1058) [30:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1817) [30:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1826))

**Q: How can you keep the benefits of a break once back at work?**
A: Thea negotiated more leave days and flexibility into her contract and runs a hybrid team with two core office days, trusting people to deliver. ([33:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2035) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2060) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2121) [36:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2208))

**Q: Would Thea take another sabbatical?**
A: Not immediately, she says, but she would do it again at a heartbeat because the breaks made her more authentic and empathetic. ([42:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2523) [42:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2527))


### Passage: Why Thea took three different career breaks [02:01–04:45, 436 words]

Note (AI): Thea lays out all three breaks: NGO volunteering, her son's birth, and sudden hearing loss after falling ill in Cameroon.

Thea Weeks, guest [02:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=121):
> I really believe, and, and I mean, I can only speak about my own lived experience. In my instance, it was different seasons. So at the start, I've always been, very driven, followed the standard path in terms of studies and career and being hugely committed, and I never took a gap year as a young student or just after I matriculated. So early in my career, I studied, I continued advanced studies, and then worked extensive hours, and within the first seven years, I thought, you know what, I actually want to plow back, and I want to do volunteer NGO type of work. I really want to give back what I've learned. I want to plow back and invest. so that was the one break, which ended up being a five-year break and an investment really in a different sphere. And then the second break was when I expected my son, and I decided that at the time I was spending extensive times, you know, visiting different sites, various areas in Africa, traveling extensively, which is really lovely if you're young and you have that flexibility, but when you have a child, I think I wanted to be able to just focus on this newborn baby and to be able to invest without the burden of feeling that I'm letting the team down because I can't travel extensively. And then the last opportunity came where I was traveling in Cameroon for a project. I really, really felt ill, and, at that time I thought, you know what, I'm not going to burden the client, the staff, I'm not even going to tell anybody I'm feeling horribly ill. I will travel back to South Africa and see a doctor here, not thinking that if you have such high levels of fever and inflammation and infection that you should actually not be traveling, and I lost hearing in my left ear and then also impacted hearing in my right ear. So I had to adjust to the fact that mid-career you're sort of at your peak, and suddenly you have a disability. I used to engage and have like a thousand people in one go, sometimes up to five thousand at different events or public participation meetings or conferences, et cetera, and suddenly you can't hear, and you just feel that your career has come to an absolute end. How can you be in stakeholder engagement or engage at that level if you can't even Such an board meeting and hear the conversation. So yes, I took three different breaks in my career for different reasons.


### Passage: Resigning rather than taking a sabbatical [06:38–09:18, 446 words]

Note (AI): Explains why she chose clean breaks on her own terms each time, including resigning instead of maternity leave.

Thea Weeks, guest [06:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=398):
> But to come back to your question, did I feel in any of those three instances that I should go the sabbatical route? I think number one, with government at that stage, I don't think that was an option. At the time, I think there was room for people that would study, you know, let's say I wanted to do my PhD, there would be room for that especially. But I wanted to have a clear break and be able to do this and come back on my own terms. The second was with my son. As I said, you know, I traveled extensively in Africa, but I did not want to leave a baby. Even after four months of maternity leave, I did not want to have that burden of having to travel or pause it for a year and then go back to that level of travel. I actually resigned and never took maternity leave, told them that I really value this time. It's a new season. I will always be committed. I will always be loyal, but I really need to take this space alone. And even if I work as an independent consultant, I would do so, but I really want to value and invest in this time. And what, you know, my son was five days old when they phoned and said, Batia, can you just review this or can you look at this? And in all honesty, I, when my son slept, I was looking at documents and reviewing documents and actually continuing, but in my terms, when it was convenient, when it fit around my personal circumstances. In the last instance, when I lost my hearing, I think of all three breaks suddenly being labeled with a disability, battling in the workplace, battling in meetings, battling in open plane, place settings, because you suddenly have a hearing aid that is picking up literally everything. If somebody is sitting next to you stirring their teacup, you know, that is elevated and nuanced rather than people having a conversation. So that was the most difficult break for me, and I know from a company perspective, they would have given me time to address, to work, you know, with the occupational therapist. But at the time, I was working on the trans-atlantic pipeline, working extensively with a team in Albania and in Europe, and I just felt that I would rather pause my career, adjust, Look at tools, resources, different ways of working, and they encircle back. But I do understand that a lot of people now actually just take a year or two sabbatical, and they encircle back to their careers.


### Passage: Surprises and the fill-your-cup lesson [22:33–24:50, 371 words]

Note (AI): Her central metaphor for self-care and her admission that she ignored warning signs before falling ill.

Thea Weeks, guest [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1353):
> Yes. I think, I think the surprises, especially for me, as I said, is I felt institutionalized in the NGO space after a period. I really missed the wider collaboration, the, let's say, multi-dimensional teams and the wider networks. So I think that for me was a big miss. The aha moment was the fact that I could really build and learn in capacity and also what you can do with less. You know, I really had to learn to work around financing, looking at blended financing, public-private partnerships. so, so that was a really, a great moment. And then I think in the other two instances, the aha moment is that You can actually come back a better person because of this experience. So if you allow yourself, I always refer to it as sort of a, well, everybody in, in that knows me know I'm a bit of a coffeeholic, but if I have a beautiful steaming mug of coffee and somebody says, Thea, I'm really thirsty, I will have enough to share. But if I don't take a moment to fill my cup and it becomes empty and emptier and emptier, and in the end there's nothing in it, I will not have anything to share. So for me, it was really important to know that, you know, I always say in your career, you can see times where your cup is becoming depleted or less and less and less, and we don't listen to those warning signs. The lesson I had to learn is you saw them, going emptier and emptier and emptier, and you did not respond. If I look at in Cameroon when I became ill, it was probably a combination of burnout and your immune system just crashing and you not being able to cope with everything and, you know, making you more susceptible, for a viral infection. But I think it's so important to, if my cup is empty, I really have nothing to share. Whether it's with well-meaning friends, with family, with colleagues, you will not have anything to share. So I need to pause, stop, fill my cup. And make sure I have enough to spill over into other people's lives.


### Passage: Disability reshaping her career focus on inclusion [30:17–32:47, 343 words]

Note (AI): Shows how lived experience of hearing loss redirected her advisory work towards communication and inclusion.

Thea Weeks, guest [30:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1817):
> And then lastly, even after the disability, I think that thread stayed with me, but I then, strangely enough, was somebody with a hearing disability, focused to a larger extent on communication because I realized how important as a person with a hearing disability, communication is, stakeholder engagement is, partnerships is, and how to evolve that. So the refined, refreshed me had a lived experience as a person with a disability, and I wanted to look at diversity, equity, and inclusion with a different lens. I weren't only advising clients on how you can enhance social impact. I had that lived experience of, but what are you doing in your workforce, within your own companies, and also then in your communities to enhance inclusion of women or vulnerable groups or youth or people with disabilities, and to what extent is it sort of a tick box checklist exercise versus authentically understanding the challenges they face and the accommodations you could do? I think I've, because of the research I did, with my second break and third break, I really understood far greater, you know, the role that human resources can play in providing accommodations, in providing a more Equitable workforce and how to really transform companies and communities within Africa. My heart and my passion is in Africa, and being able to plow that back and to advising clients and even looking, I mean, a lot of companies come to me and say, but here, you know, we've got a lovely balanced workforce, you know, this is our numbers, and then they would only focus on ethnicity or gender, for example, but they don't really understand the granularity or complexity, and they haven't really had authentic Discussions with their teams. So I think it's really important to look at that, and I personally feel that Thea of today is a completely different person than the Thea that took her first break late in her twenties, because I've evolved and grown, and each of these breaks have actually added great value to my life.


### Passage: Negotiating flexibility and hybrid work after breaks [33:55–37:08, 506 words]

Note (AI): Concrete example of carrying break lessons into a contract and a team's hybrid working practices.

Thea Weeks, guest [33:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2035):
> And from day one, we agreed that I do not want to give up The things I value. I value my time, I value flexibility, I value the fact that I can travel, I value the fact that I can do research, plow back, sharpen the sword. And even with that, I amended and were clear in the negotiations with my contract time. So I actually have adjusted remuneration and benefits and incentives around giving me more flexibility and time. So I would rather have more leave days, for example, in brackets, leave days to do research, to present, to speak, to be able to assist other companies to grow, to develop, than just Be restricted to X number of leave days because from a legal standpoint, that is required as a minimum requirement. So I adjusted my own contracts going forward, and also with clients, we build it in, even with my own team, we've got a hybrid working environment. You know, for me, it's about your end product. So if you are working on a research report, if you have to get something done, how you juggle your day and how you manage your day. Yes, we do have core days. We typically try to come into the office two days a week. for connectivity, for cohesion, for collaboration, it remains core to what we do, but you actually trust people to get on and do their work and do it well. So I think I've been able to instill a lot of those principles in our own company at the moment, and also helping other companies to have a more agile, hybrid working environment where you give flexibility. I mean, we've had a lot of the men come back to us post-COVID and saying, Tia, it's been remarkable. You know, I used to leave at five o'clock in the morning, come back late at night, basically kiss my child goodnight. That was the extent of my involvement during the week. Now I've been able to have breakfast with them, take them to school. Work, go and fetch them, have lunch with them, work, and then when they go to bed, I circle back to my computer, and it's not a problem, but I actually feel that I'm making, I'm more connected to my children, to their lives. I'm able to tell everybody, guys, I'm going to go and watch this soccer game now, and we all applaud you because you're involved, you're present, and I know that come Friday, if we need to give a deliverable into a client, it's going to be done exquisitely because you have the flexibility to have time for what you value as well. So I think it's really important that we, we don't lose that when we come back, that we don't take a sabbatical or have a break, and then we just go back, and we don't take those lessons into the, the, the day and week and month and year we want in the future.


### Passage: Burnout warning signs and taking smaller breaks [37:58–41:24, 581 words]

Note (AI): Practical list of burnout symptoms and tactics for spreading leave through the year.

Thea Weeks, guest [37:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2278):
> You know yourself, and you see the warning bells going on, you know, in the morning when you suddenly feel like, oh my goodness, do I have to get up? How do I get through this week? You start living for weekends. You really, where you typically would quickly pop something out, it suddenly takes you an hour to write the most mundane letter, or it takes you longer to finish a report or a design, or to complete tasks, or you're losing concentration, or you, you just realize that it takes you longer to complete the same things. You have more brain fog, you are tired. Often, when I speak to people, they say, oh, I've noticed, you know, now that I think about it, I've had flu more often, I've had sick days more often. It's difficult for me to get up on a Monday. It's difficult for me to finish a Friday. So please listen to your bodies. I think it's so, so important to listen to your gut, to see the warning signs, and to put systems in place and measures in place, and to take the time out, and to be honest with the people around you if you do need to take the time out. You know, a, a, a lot of the people I speak to save their leave until the end of the year to have a proper break, but to go the whole year without a break is actually not sustainable, you know, and we then encourage people to look at in each quarter to take a little bit of time out and to not just be at home. Sometimes people say, Tia, I'm so tired, I'm just gonna take two days to sleep, which is also fine, but sometimes changing your physical environment as well, go and visit a friend, go and visit family that stay in a different country or stay in a different province. Sometimes just getting out of your house as well, because we fall into habits in our own homes. We, we tend to go back to our laptops or our office space that we now sort of post-COVID made in our homes. So don't get into that habit of saying, I've got a break, but oops, I'm just quickly going to scroll through and answer twenty emails. If your body is tired, take the time out. Put in the leave days, have the rest periods, and if you need to take longer time, I've seen now where people have said, you know what, I may need to run out of leave, and I may have to actually take one or two days unpaid leave, and it's also okay. To juggle it, to move things around, to give yourself the freedom. We've also seen where people would say, you know what, I'm going to take half days of leave. I am going to take every Friday afternoon off this month, which is two days effectively, but just to allow myself to feel I've got a bit of a long weekend. Or we encourage our teams as well, if there's public holidays, to look at the annual calendar and to say, okay, but if I take this Friday or this Monday or this Tuesday, I actually make a longer long weekend for myself and give myself a solid break. So I think it's about planning as well and being honest with yourself if you see the warning signs.


### Passage: Planning finances, rest and a soft re-entry [43:28–45:24, 300 words]

Note (AI): Thea's step-by-step advice for anyone considering a sabbatical, from savings to a staggered return.

Thea Weeks, guest [43:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2608):
> Yes. I think it's really important to plan, to make sure that you put finances aside, you know, whether you're going to tap into savings or investments, but try to always plan ahead so that ideally you have put money aside, whether it's three-month salary, whether it's a year salary, you know, try to have savings, try to at least put a pocket aside. Should you want to take a month's sabbatical, a three-month sabbatical, a year's sabbatical, so plan for it already, and then make sure that you look at that rest period where you can just allow yourself not to start doing, not to start performing, where you just let your hair down, and whether it's sleeping or doing absolutely nothing but reading fifty books or binge-watching series, that's horrible, but that just goes into that, you know, no-brain zone, do that. But then also start slowly building and looking at your recovery and your realignment. Start looking at who do you want to be in the next phase, what should you do differently, and have a soft re-entry. A lot of people are saying, was the re-entry hard? I think people that go from sort of a zero phase to a suddenly a full-time, let's call it in brackets, a nine to five corporate career, will definitely battle. Try to see if you can stagger it. Try and see if you can shape it differently, that you commit a certain number of hours for a year or two, and then slowly build up to where you want to be or where you find that that is your sweet spot. This is the number of hours you comfortably want to work in a week. So I think it's important to just look at your return to work as


### Quotes

> "there was a state conference where all the government departments came together, and then at that event, they gave an award for the most likely to succeed, also the person with the most votes within a number of different departments, as somebody wanting, you know, colleagues wanted to work with this person and felt that this person is integral to the way and the department going forward. So at the time, I received that award at this assembly of all government departments"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [18:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1130)

> "You can actually come back a better person because of this experience."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [23:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1403)

> "But if I don't take a moment to fill my cup and it becomes empty and emptier and emptier, and in the end there's nothing in it, I will not have anything to share."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1424)

> "The lesson I had to learn is you saw them, going emptier and emptier and emptier, and you did not respond."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [24:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1448)

> "So I need to pause, stop, fill my cup. And make sure I have enough to spill over into other people's lives."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1482)

> "We don't always sharpen the sword."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [27:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1628)

> "I personally feel that Thea of today is a completely different person than the Thea that took her first break late in her twenties, because I've evolved and grown, and each of these breaks have actually added great value to my life."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [32:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1952)

> "So please listen to your bodies. I think it's so, so important to listen to your gut, to see the warning signs,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [38:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2336)

> "If your body is tired, take the time out. Put in the leave days, have the rest periods,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [40:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2417)

> "Do I think I'll do it again? Yes, at a heartbeat. It's made me the person I am today,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [42:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2523)

> "It was work first, family last, and we really grow, grew up in that space where you work."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [42:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2557)

> "what I really appreciate about intergenerational teams is they will just, I mean, our younger teams will just come to you upfront. And they want to work for companies that value wellness, that value balance. So I don't think it's sustainable, and you have to listen to your body."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · [42:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2575)


### Claims

> "I'm the environmental, social, and governance lead for MPI Mott Africa. We are predominantly an engineering and development firm with a passion for development and infrastructure development in Africa."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=71)

> "So although I started mostly in the extractive industry, oiling, mine, and gas, it's evolved over the years, and I focus largely on renewable energy at the moment."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=102)

> "within the first seven years, I thought, you know what, I actually want to plow back, and I want to do volunteer NGO type of work. I really want to give back what I've learned."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: NGO work and giving back · [02:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=156)

> "I will travel back to South Africa and see a doctor here, not thinking that if you have such high levels of fever and inflammation and infection that you should actually not be traveling, and I lost hearing in my left ear and then also impacted hearing in my right ear."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hearing loss and disability · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=230)

> "I used to engage and have like a thousand people in one go, sometimes up to five thousand at different events or public participation meetings or conferences, et cetera, and suddenly you can't hear, and you just feel that your career has come to an absolute end."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hearing loss and disability · [04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=257)

> "I think especially with COVID and hybrid working, more and more companies globally, especially multinationals, have policies in terms of sabbaticals."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Career breaks and sabbaticals · [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=311)

> "I did speak to the minister at that stage and the deputy director general, and they both felt I'm absolutely throwing this golden career away, but I really felt that I needed to take this time,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: NGO work and giving back · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=335)

> "I actually resigned and never took maternity leave, told them that I really value this time. It's a new season. I will always be committed. I will always be loyal, but I really need to take this space alone."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Parenthood and work · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=447)

> "my son was five days old when they phoned and said, Batia, can you just review this or can you look at this? And in all honesty, I, when my son slept, I was looking at documents and reviewing documents"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Parenthood and work · [07:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=468)

> "battling in open plane, place settings, because you suddenly have a hearing aid that is picking up literally everything. If somebody is sitting next to you stirring their teacup, you know, that is elevated and nuanced rather than people having a conversation."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hearing loss and disability · [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=503)

> "I didn't have the option of taking a sabbatical. It was, we were going through a massive restructure, so, if, if you're doing a restructure, ask to take time off, I think, I think you're sort of just telling them that you want to leave anyway,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career breaks and sabbaticals · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=558)

> "So I then, over a period of six months, ensured that I train people nationally, that we do training the trainer, that we build capacity skills, we set up a whole office, a whole division, we appointed the first ombudsman."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Preparing for a break · [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=679)

> "the ear, nose, and throat specialist sat me down and actually had a hard discussion with me and said, Tia, it's not going to come back. It's not flu that you get over with, with time or recover. This hearing loss is permanent, and we now need to give you tools and resources to adjust."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hearing loss and disability · [12:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=753)

> "I do think it's important that you value your health and your body and where you are in your career, and if you need to take a step away to allow yourself that time to take a step away."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Career breaks and sabbaticals · [13:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=803)

> "phone a friend, even if it's cold calling, knock on a door, there's somebody that is a specialist in this area. Go the extra mile, open the doors that's closed, and work with people that know what they are doing, and rely on the specialist to be there."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: NGO work and giving back · [15:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=944)

> "I was very clear that I could take a 25 hours a week commitment, but no more, because I know that if I commit to, let's say, five hours a day, if I work eight or ten, it's going to be lovely."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Parenthood and work · [17:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1028)

> "With the disability break, I had no expectations. I really felt as if my life has come to an end, and I really felt cut off, and I think that is also part of grieving."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hearing loss and disability · [17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1058)

> "So at the time, I received that award at this assembly of all government departments, so everybody saw this golden career, and here this woman comes three months later,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Reactions to taking a break · [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1158)

> "But I think I really valued, and I've learned to trust, my own feeling and in terms of who I want to be and who I need to be at that time."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Reactions to taking a break · [20:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1235)

> "You need to be able to listen to that still, small voice, that's directing you, because ultimately you're going to leave with the results and live with the results."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Reactions to taking a break · [20:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1254)

> "I think with the first experience, I learned resilience. And the fact that they are brilliant people, far more skilled, far more equipped, with far more experience than me out there."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Lessons from breaks · [21:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1285)

> "I felt institutionalized in the NGO space after a period. I really missed the wider collaboration, the, let's say, multi-dimensional teams and the wider networks."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: NGO work and giving back · [22:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1359)

> "If I look at in Cameroon when I became ill, it was probably a combination of burnout and your immune system just crashing and you not being able to cope with everything"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Burnout and warning signs · [24:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1454)

> "And it happens so quickly in a corporate environment where you work and you work and you work and you don't have time for conferences, you don't have time for training, you don't have time for reflection. You just keep working. I think it's so important to take the time out to research."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Reflection and research · [27:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1639)

> "I then, strangely enough, was somebody with a hearing disability, focused to a larger extent on communication because I realized how important as a person with a hearing disability, communication is, stakeholder engagement is, partnerships is, and how to evolve that."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hearing loss and disability · [30:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=1826)

> "Marlene started, I think it was 27 years ago now, the first woman-owned engineering and development company in South Africa."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Guest background · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2007)

> "So I actually have adjusted remuneration and benefits and incentives around giving me more flexibility and time. So I would rather have more leave days, for example, in brackets, leave days to do research, to present, to speak,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hybrid work and flexibility · [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2060)

> "Yes, we do have core days. We typically try to come into the office two days a week. for connectivity, for cohesion, for collaboration, it remains core to what we do, but you actually trust people to get on and do their work and do it well."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hybrid work and flexibility · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2121)

> "we've had a lot of the men come back to us post-COVID and saying, Tia, it's been remarkable. You know, I used to leave at five o'clock in the morning, come back late at night, basically kiss my child goodnight."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hybrid work and flexibility · [35:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2151)

> "So I think it's really important that we, we don't lose that when we come back, that we don't take a sabbatical or have a break, and then we just go back,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Lessons from breaks · [36:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2208)

> "It's almost as if people push themselves right to the limit before realizing I actually need to take a break. You know, you almost have to collapse completely, and your body has to give in"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Burnout and warning signs · [37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2236)

> "You start living for weekends. You really, where you typically would quickly pop something out, it suddenly takes you an hour to write the most mundane letter, or it takes you longer to finish a report or a design,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Burnout and warning signs · [38:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2291)

> "a lot of the people I speak to save their leave until the end of the year to have a proper break, but to go the whole year without a break is actually not sustainable, you know, and we then encourage people to look at in each quarter to take a little bit of time out"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Burnout and warning signs · [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2355)

> "if there's public holidays, to look at the annual calendar and to say, okay, but if I take this Friday or this Monday or this Tuesday, I actually make a longer long weekend for myself and give myself a solid break."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Burnout and warning signs · [41:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2463)

> "It's made me the person I am today, and it's really made me a well-rounded person. I'm far more authentic, far more honest. I have far more greater empathy for people that are going through struggles."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Lessons from breaks · [42:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2527)

> "our younger teams will just come to you upfront. And they want to work for companies that value wellness, that value balance."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Hybrid work and flexibility · [43:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2581)

> "try to always plan ahead so that ideally you have put money aside, whether it's three-month salary, whether it's a year salary, you know, try to have savings, try to at least put a pocket aside."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Planning finances and re-entry · [43:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2621)

> "Start looking at who do you want to be in the next phase, what should you do differently, and have a soft re-entry."
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Planning finances and re-entry · [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2676)

> "I had to work with a financial advisor to make sure that I could actually afford to take some time off, and I think I'm a big, big, big fan, fan of coaches."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mentors and coaches · [45:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2727)

> "one hundred percent, you need mentors and coaches in your life. You know, one person will help you with business and your career, others will look at your personal goals, others will look at fitness or spiritual goals,"
> — Thea Weeks, guest · topic: Mentors and coaches · [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1480257_high.mp3#t=2761)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Pausing with Purpose: Giving back, Parenthood, and Resilience. Episode 5 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Thea Weeks who shares her transformative journey of taking three significant career breaks. In her breaks, Thea worked for an NGO for 5 years, focused on her new baby, and had to adapt to life and work after losing hearing in one ear. Thea offers deep insights into the motivations behind each break, how she prepared, and the challenges she faced both personally and professionally. Throughout the conversation Thea highlights the importance of listening to your body's signals and knowing when to pause. She emphasizes the invaluable support from mentors and coaches and she shares the lessons learned on adaptability and maintaining a support network. Thea also emphasises the value of taking smaller breaks regularly to avoid burnout and incorporating work-life balance practices like hybrid work environments. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #030 The Healing Pause | Ntseiseng Lephole

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/030-the-healing-pause/
- Date: 2024-09-01 (as at 2024-09-01)
- Guest: Ntseiseng Lephole
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Career break for health, Stress and thyroid health, Reflection and self-care, Returning to work, Journaling and meditation routine, Preventive health checks
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1476380
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3

### About the guest: Ntseiseng Lephole

- Joburg
- Works with international NGOs. Took a career break in 2015 for health reasons after a hyperactive thyroid diagnosis, and studied a master's in development finance with UCT.

In their own words:

> "I work with international NGOs, and, the last NGO that I worked with, the project closed at the end of March." [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=63)

> "2015, I had also planned to study the master's in development finance with UCT. Once I started with my master's, I then realized that I actually do need a break." [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=191)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

In the fourth episode of a series on conscious breaks from work, host Petro du Pisani talks to Ntseiseng Lephole, who works with international NGOs. Ntseiseng describes taking a voluntary package in 2015 after a hyperactive thyroid, surgery and a cancer scare, using the break to study a master's in development finance. She explains how returning to a high-pressure job made her ill again, how she recovered through exercise, healthy eating and a regular routine, and how she now keeps up journaling and meditation. She closes by urging listeners to have holistic health checks during their breaks.

**Key ideas**

- Ntseiseng says her doctors warned that she had to manage stress for her thyroid medication to work, which drove her decision to take the package and a break. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=85) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=125) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=272))
- She observed that her medication dosage stayed stable while she was off work, but had to be changed repeatedly once work stress returned. ([11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=716) [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518))
- Ntseiseng argues that work is never finished, so people must deliberately rest, for example keeping one day a week as a rest day. ([20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1242) [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362))
- She found the break brought unplanned reflection, a return to things she used to enjoy, and fresh ideas when she went back to work. ([19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1171) [20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1213))
- The host argues that lessons from a sabbatical should be carried back into the workplace; Ntseiseng does this through journaling and meditation. ([31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1862) [31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015))
- Ntseiseng urges holistic health care and annual checkups, noting her thyroid was only found because a specialist ordered a full check. ([34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2053) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2060) [35:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2143) [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230))

**Ntseiseng's daily journaling routine** ([31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015) [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2033))

1. Keep separate journals, such as spiritual, work, daily and a colouring journal.
2. Journal in at least one of them once a day.
3. Stay conscious of what happens around you during the day.
4. In the evening, write each event into the matching journal.
5. When stuck at work, pause, look in the mirror and tell yourself you are still good enough.

**Lessons**

- Ntseiseng suggests trusting the inner sense that a decision is right, even for a risk-averse person. ([15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=954) [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=979))
- Having a structured activity, such as studying, can keep a break from feeling like idle recovery, according to Ntseiseng. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=557))
- Her experience shows that returning to long hours can undo the health gains of a break. ([24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478) [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1493) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518))
- Ntseiseng recommends taking short pauses and rest days rather than going months without rest. ([21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362))
- She advises fitting a full body check into a career break. ([37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230))

**Who it's for:** People considering a career break for health or burnout, professionals returning to work after a sabbatical, and anyone managing a chronic condition alongside a demanding job who wants practical ideas on rest, journaling and health checks.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Ntseiseng was diagnosed with a hyperactive thyroid from 2013 and it did not respond to medication through 2014. ([01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=99))
- She studied a master's in development finance with UCT in 2015. ([03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=191))
- After the break she left her first new job after six months because it was not busy enough. ([24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1463))
- She lost more than 20 kg and began running 3.5 to 5 km a day from 2019. ([26:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1591) [27:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1623))
- She once had to produce about 190 pages in less than a week on a project. ([14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=851))
- Ntseiseng plans for her next break to be the full Camino. ([30:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1839))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why would someone take a career break for health reasons?**
A: Ntseiseng took one after a hyperactive thyroid that would not respond to medication, surgery and a cancer scare, coinciding with a restructuring; her doctors said she had to manage her stress levels. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=85) [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=99) [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=125))

**Q: How do family and friends react when you take a break?**
A: Ntseiseng says she got many questions about the risk, the loss of medical aid and provident fund, and whether she would find a job again; she replied that her health was more important. ([04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=256) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=272))

**Q: What should I do during a career break?**
A: Ntseiseng studied, which kept her busy; she wishes she had read more and spent more time in nature, and she advises getting a full body health check. ([09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=557) [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1095) [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230))

**Q: What happens when you go back to a stressful job after a break?**
A: Ntseiseng's thyroid flared again when she worked late hours in Pretoria; her doctor said he could do nothing until she managed her stress. ([24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478) [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1493) [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518))

**Q: How can I keep the benefits of a sabbatical after returning to work?**
A: Ntseiseng keeps a routine of meditation and several journals, stays conscious of events during the day and pauses when stuck at work. ([31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015) [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2033))

**Q: Is it okay to rest before finishing a work project?**
A: Ntseiseng says work is never finished, so take a breather, reflect and return after resting, and keep a weekly rest day. ([21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362))

**Q: Why are annual health checks important?**
A: Ntseiseng's thyroid condition was discovered only because a neurologist ordered a full check by several specialists; she says she might otherwise have died. ([34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2053) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2060) [35:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2143))


### Passage: Thyroid illness, restructuring and the decision to leave [01:25–03:46, 316 words]

Note (AI): Ntseiseng's full account of why she took a voluntary package: illness, a cancer scare, doctor's warnings about stress and a planned master's.

Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=85):
> have taken a break before. That was way back in 2014, December 2014, so my break was in 2015. Why did you take that break? it was health reasons. So from 2013, I was diagnosed with a very hyperactive, thyroid. Between 2013 and 2014, it wouldn't respond to medication. I went through a lot in terms of, being hospitalized regularly, and then there was a, a scare of cancer as well on the thyroid, and around that time, there was also a brutal, restructuring, as you said earlier, at our organization, and, everyone literally had to apply for their jobs. And going into the operation, my doctors had already warned me that, after the operation, I need to manage my stress levels so that they can get me into the right dosage for my medication. so it was that, and also looking at the restructuring, I had about Five or six jobs that I could have applied for, but I imagined, going for one interview and being told you're not successful, and then another, and another, and another. So the, after the operation was in October, and the, the restructuring happened around that same time. So after the operation, then I decided to take the package, voluntary package, and, just take a break. Initially, I had thought that maybe after three months, I will start looking for a job, but 2015, I had also planned to study the master's in development finance with UCT. Once I started with my master's, I then realized that I actually do need a break. so I was on break for almost a year, ten, eleven months, while I was studying, and, I started looking for a job on the, I think the ninth month or so, and then I was lucky to get the first one that I went for an interview for. But yeah, that was the reason why.


### Passage: Facing a cancer scare and turning down an interview [05:45–08:10, 348 words]

Note (AI): Shows how a health crisis reset her priorities and how she withdrew from a job opportunity to protect her break.

Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=345):
> I think at first I had to deal with my operation and going into a major operation, not knowing whether I have cancer or not, that, took over. And for that period, I didn't think of anything else except is there going to be cancer or not. And, in 2013, I had lost my aunt to cancer. so it was still like the, the, the scale of cancer, the reality of cancer was still like very new, for me. And, I'd also lost my cousin, who was, in fact, my cousin I lost in 2014 in December, she had leukemia and had her treatment at the Donald Gordon, Hospital as well. So with her, I had a, a very rough experience of cancer cause I was at the hospital every single day. I saw what she went through. In November, my concern was just my health. And, years we went through meetings with my, my boss and the other leadership team, and, I remember the first meeting after I came back from my operation, they had already started with the initial meetings with all the other staff, and when I came back, then they had a meeting with me, and, from that meeting, I made it very clear to them that I'm gonna take the package for health reasons. I explained to them what my doctor said, and they did accept that. So when the results eventually came back and there was no cancer, reality hit, then on the other side, that your living work was gonna happen. I remember I actually had applied for one position, and I was called for an interview, and I went for that interview, and I was like, if I get this job, maybe I should just get, take it or not. But something just kept telling me that you need the break. So after the interview, even before they came back with the results, I actually wrote an email to them and I told them, you know, I am taking a break, so please, rule me out for, for this position.


### Passage: Why rest matters even when work is unfinished [20:42–22:59, 328 words]

Note (AI): Her core argument for regular rest, including the weekly rest-day idea she took from a priest.

Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [20:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1242):
> Like I say, it wasn't something that I really planned, but then as I look back, I realized that I did a lot of reflection. I came out of it saying, I need to take care of myself more. Work is work. You can do whatever you can do, what you're able to do. But I also came to the realization that you can never, ever at work say you have finished. Something. There is always, always something. It's important that you get time to rest. Even if you haven't finished a project at work, just take a breather, do an introspection, reflect, and get back to it, after you, you have rested. There is just no point in waking yourself to your death, and at the end of it, then you're feeling so fatigued, so tired, and you don't even have the time to do the things that you, you want to do that will make you come back refreshed, you are putting them aside. So having time for self, it's very important. In fact, last week, I was watching something on Instagram, and, the priest was saying, We put so much time on earthly things and wanting to do things and doing them right all the time, we never give ourselves time to rest. And, by the time we get time to rest, it's too late. Our bodies have taken the toll, and you may recover, but your body will never fully recover. And he said, you know, God, when he created earth, he worked for six days, and he rested for one day. Can we just practice that? If God could do that, why can we not do that? So tell yourself on Sundays, it's your rest day. You can work, even on Saturdays, yes, you do your personal stuff and everything, but Have time to rest. Do not go for a month, two months without resting, and then you're complaining how tired you are.


### Passage: Relapse under workload, then recovery through balance [24:38–27:21, 369 words]

Note (AI): A turning point: long hours made her ill again; a normal-hours job, exercise and healthy eating restored her health.

Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [24:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1478):
> And I moved to another organization. Oh my God, didn't I get busy? And, that's where then my thyroid started acting up again because it was in Pretoria. I live in Joburg. It was so busy that at times I would leave work at 10 PM, driving back to Joburg. What do you do when you get home at 11 PM? All you need to do is shower, get into bed, and go to work the following day. And that's where I understood what my doctors meant when they said I need to manage my stress levels because I started getting sick. And my doctor kept saying to me, there is absolutely nothing I can do for you until you start managing your stress levels. I can give you all the medication I can, but if you don't manage your stress levels, There's nothing that I can do for you. And the moment that I managed that stress, I got another job and moved back to Joburg. I was weighing over a hundred Ks. My feet were swollen all the time. My iron deficiency was bad. magnesium, calcium, every, every time I did bloods, everything was just low. And my thyroid was either hyper or hypo. When I moved back to Joburg, the job I got was, normal hours, hardly ever working overtime. And, I started finding time to go to the gym. I started going back to walking and hiking here and there. And by the end of, that was in 2019, by the end of that year, I had lost so much weight. overall, I lost more than 20 Ks from what I was weighing, and then I started to see my health improving again, and, I was also eating healthy. I've never been a diet person going on diets. I was just eating healthy, and everyone complimented me. I started glowing. My skin went back to the smooth skin that it used to be, and I've never turned back. I started running in 2019 for the first time ever in my life. I don't do marathons, but I run like 3.5 to 5 Ks every day, and I've gone back to hiking. it's It's just amazing.


### Passage: Keeping the sabbatical mindset through journaling [31:27–34:05, 393 words]

Note (AI): Describes her practical daily routine of multiple journals, mindfulness during the day and pausing when stuck at work.

Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [31:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1887):
> You know, I have created a routine on things like meditation, journaling, things that after our executive MBA program, I'm sure all of us, we thought this is how we're going to do our lives. But, along the way, they fall off. you get home in the evening, you're tired, and you're like, no, I can skip a day without journaling. And then it becomes two days before you know it, you have stopped. And I went through that. And, when I went to, so I did my Camino in Spain. When I went to Spain, I told myself, I'm going to spend that whole week journaling my everyday experience of my work every day. And, I created a theme for each day. And I did that, and I did meditation, and I came back, and I consciously told myself, I'm not gonna stop. I actually ended up buying so many journals. Yeah, I have a journal for my spiritual life, I have a journal for work, I have a journal for my normal day, and then I have a, a, a journal that has, mostly where you can color in and all of that. So either way, between the four or the five journals that I have, I have to at least once a day journal on any of them something that happens. And I realized that it becomes easier if you become conscious throughout the day on things that happen around you. Then in the evening, you're looking forward. To actually then say, I remember this happened, I'm going to write about it. Oh, it's spiritual because I felt God was talking to me. Then I go to my spiritual journal and I, I write about that. Oh, I met this very nice stranger and this person said this to me, you know, and then you go to your gratitude journal or whatever. So I have found that it's best or it's better to not just go through the day and just be swallowed up in the things that are happening, but become conscious of things that are happening. Taking a pause at times, and, if you are stuck at work, with a report that you are doing, just take a pause, go to the bathroom, look at yourself in the mirror, and just say to yourself, I'm still good enough.


### Passage: How a referral uncovered her thyroid condition [34:13–37:22, 452 words]

Note (AI): Her story of how a specialist's full check found the thyroid condition, and her advice to use breaks for health checks.

Ntseiseng Lephole, guest [34:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2053):
> You know, seeing that I took my break for health reasons, I would say it's very important for people that as you are taking care of all your other aspects of life, take care of your health aspect of life, as well. It's very important. Those annual checkups are important. I didn't know that I had a thyroid until my aunt that I said had a cancer passed on. She passed on in April 2013, and then around June, I went to my GP, and I said to my GP, I've told you about the history of cancer in my family. I've just lost my aunt to cancer, and, at that time, I was suffering from lots of migraines for years. I had even gone to the head clinic and I didn't get help. My gynae had suggested, that I put them in renal loop, and, I'm one person, I don't want anything foreign in my body, and I refused, but my migraines were hormonal. They will come at the end of my periods. And when my aunt passed on, her cancer was called R&B for short, I can't pronounce the full name, but it was, on the nerves next to the brain. And that's when I went to my GP and asked my GP to refer me to a specialist, and, he didn't hesitate. He referred me to a neurologist who then did the EEG, sent me for, MRI, and, they actually picked that I have lesions on my brain, that is my other risk cancer that I'm living with. And then This lady decided that she's gonna admit me in hospital to investigate those lesions further, but then she's also going to invite a whole lot of specialists so that they can have a full check on my body. And that's how my thyroid was discovered. had she not done that, had she ac- admitted me in hospital and just, invited a neurosurgeon, I wouldn't, probably I would be dead. The thyroid would have killed me. So it's very important to Manage your life holistically. Right now, even though, as I say, I'm at risk of cancer and cancers, I know which cancers I'm at risk of, and my doctors are on alert on those. They know the things that they need to check. I didn't know that, acid reflux, if it goes untreated, it can cause stomach cancer until I was under the hands of my doctors. So yeah, I would say it's important to take care of self and self holistically. So when you take those breaks, fit in a full body check during those breaks, that you are to make sure that health-wise you are still okay.


### Quotes

> "It's like you have a guardian whispering in your ear all the time that, remember, you need to do this."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=504)

> "I would wake up Monday morning, and I would already be looking forward to Saturday,"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [10:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=657)

> "It's amazing how it's almost like your body has to tell you that you need a break, and then you listen to it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=793)

> "I look back now, and I'm like, you know, it went to expenses, it's okay that it went to expenses. It didn't go to something big that I wanted to do, a holiday or buy a new car or whatever, which will still have been expenses."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [17:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1038)

> "There is just no point in waking yourself to your death,"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [21:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1294)

> "he worked for six days, and he rested for one day. Can we just practice that? If God could do that, why can we not do that?"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [22:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1353)

> "It's like you're not going to be on your deathbed and wish you'd done more meetings or more Teams calls."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [23:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1380)

> "I can give you all the medication I can, but if you don't manage your stress levels, There's nothing that I can do for you."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1526)

> "And I was like, so I can finish a cup of coffee without sugar."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [28:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1717)

> "I had, Just lost my mother. In fact, I was supposed to go in June, and I lost my mother at the end of, May, on the 31st of May, and, we buried her on the 10th of June. I was supposed to have traveled on the 9th of June, so I had to postpone, and I traveled in August. And that was the best decision that I made. One, I realized when I got, started doing the walk that I had not mourned my mother, and that week that I spent working, that was the week that I mourned my mother."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [29:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1797)

> "So my next break, it's going to be doing the full Camino."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [30:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1839)

> "look at yourself in the mirror, and just say to yourself, I'm still good enough."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2041)


### Claims

> "I work with international NGOs, and, the last NGO that I worked with, the project closed at the end of March."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [01:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=63)

> "So from 2013, I was diagnosed with a very hyperactive, thyroid. Between 2013 and 2014, it wouldn't respond to medication."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=99)

> "there was also a brutal, restructuring, as you said earlier, at our organization, and, everyone literally had to apply for their jobs. And going into the operation, my doctors had already warned me that, after the operation, I need to manage my stress levels so that they can get me into the right dosage for my medication."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=125)

> "2015, I had also planned to study the master's in development finance with UCT. Once I started with my master's, I then realized that I actually do need a break."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=191)

> "I got a lot of questions about, are you sure you want to do this? What are you going to do? It's risky, you know, are you sure you don't want to have a job? There won't be medical aid, there won't be provident fund, what are you going to do?"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=256)

> "my answer to them was, you know, I believe my health, it's more important, and, I'm just gonna take the advice from my doctors, and I'm going to study,"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=272)

> "When, when the restructuring started, I, I knew because I'd already decided ten years ago I was going to do this. so I had a bit of time to prepare and, and people were also very, very shocked when I left."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career break for health · [05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=320)

> "So after the interview, even before they came back with the results, I actually wrote an email to them and I told them, you know, I am taking a break, so please, rule me out for, for this position."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=475)

> "the studies helped a lot because then I was busy with something. I felt that way something keeping me busy, rather than now saying I'm recovering, what do I now do with my life while I'm recovering?"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [09:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=557)

> "It was so bad that at one point I begged my doctor to remove it. The thing had totally taken over my life, the fatigue, the headaches, I was just not in control of my body."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=628)

> "I saw from the beginning the benefit of just letting go and, managing the stress, because from the first dosage that my doctors put me on, it just stayed like that. they didn't have to change it after that."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=716)

> "there was a project that I was working on, and I had very tight, tight deadlines that, I had to do over nine, one hundred and ninety pages in less than a week. And I didn't sleep, and my body took that in."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [14:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=851)

> "You know, I am a risk-averse person, and, I was very proud of myself that I made that decision, and I took the risk of not having a regular income coming in every month."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Career break for health · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=954)

> "I actually learned that sometimes it's important to make decisions that are right for you. And, when those decisions are right for you, you will know, because there's a nagging thing within you that keeps telling you that you're making the right decision."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=979)

> "I wish I could have read more, and explored nature more. I love nature. I love being around nature, but I, I wish I could have taken more walks."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1095)

> "I went back to my youth years and the years that I started working and thought a lot about the things that I used to enjoy doing. After that, I actually just wanted to go back into those things, like hiking."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1171)

> "Going back into work as well, I realized how fresh I was, and how then I would come up with all these fresh ideas."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1213)

> "But I also came to the realization that you can never, ever at work say you have finished. Something. There is always, always something. It's important that you get time to rest."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1265)

> "Even if you haven't finished a project at work, just take a breather, do an introspection, reflect, and get back to it, after you, you have rested."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [21:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1280)

> "So tell yourself on Sundays, it's your rest day. You can work, even on Saturdays, yes, you do your personal stuff and everything, but Have time to rest. Do not go for a month, two months without resting, and then you're complaining how tired you are."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1362)

> "besides feeling that I was, being disskilled, I also felt I have too much time on my hands. And I actually stayed in that organization for six months. I left because I didn't feel busy enough."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1463)

> "It was so busy that at times I would leave work at 10 PM, driving back to Joburg. What do you do when you get home at 11 PM?"
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Returning to work · [24:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1493)

> "And my doctor kept saying to me, there is absolutely nothing I can do for you until you start managing your stress levels."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [25:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1518)

> "overall, I lost more than 20 Ks from what I was weighing, and then I started to see my health improving again, and, I was also eating healthy."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [26:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1591)

> "I started running in 2019 for the first time ever in my life. I don't do marathons, but I run like 3.5 to 5 Ks every day, and I've gone back to hiking."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [27:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1623)

> "So sometimes it's just things that will happen by mistake, but they are the right decisions you're making for your health."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Stress and thyroid health · [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1727)

> "One, I realized when I got, started doing the walk that I had not mourned my mother, and that week that I spent working, that was the week that I mourned my mother."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Reflection and self-care · [30:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1820)

> "I think it's important that you bring those lessons into, if you re-enter the workplace again afterwards, to bring those lessons with you."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Returning to work · [31:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1862)

> "Yeah, I have a journal for my spiritual life, I have a journal for work, I have a journal for my normal day, and then I have a, a, a journal that has, mostly where you can color in and all of that."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Journaling and meditation routine · [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=1951)

> "I have found that it's best or it's better to not just go through the day and just be swallowed up in the things that are happening, but become conscious of things that are happening."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Journaling and meditation routine · [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2015)

> "if you are stuck at work, with a report that you are doing, just take a pause, go to the bathroom, look at yourself in the mirror, and just say to yourself, I'm still good enough."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Journaling and meditation routine · [33:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2033)

> "it's very important for people that as you are taking care of all your other aspects of life, take care of your health aspect of life, as well. It's very important. Those annual checkups are important."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Preventive health checks · [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2060)

> "He referred me to a neurologist who then did the EEG, sent me for, MRI, and, they actually picked that I have lesions on my brain, that is my other risk cancer that I'm living with."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Preventive health checks · [35:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2143)

> "So when you take those breaks, fit in a full body check during those breaks, that you are to make sure that health-wise you are still okay."
> — Ntseiseng Lephole, guest · topic: Preventive health checks · [37:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1476380_high.mp3#t=2230)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Health First: The Power of taking a Career Break for Self-Care. Episode 4 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Ntseiseng Lephole about her experience of taking a career break to focus on health issues and to further her studies. Ntseiseng highlights the importance of self-care, reflection, and finding a work-life balance. She emphasizes the need to listen to one's body and prioritize health over work demands. After her break, Ntseiseng returned to the workforce but faced challenges in managing stress levels again. She eventually found a better balance by incorporating healthy habits like exercise, journaling, and meditation into her routine. The conversation underscores the value of taking breaks for personal growth, rejuvenation, and reassessing priorities. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #029 A Life-Changing Break | Hermien Uys

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/029-a-life-changing-break/
- Date: 2024-08-23 (as at 2024-08-23)
- Guest: Hermien Uys
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Why take a sabbatical, Leaving corporate on good terms, Adjusting to free time, Travel and personal enrichment, Volunteering and giving back, Self-worth beyond corporate, Mindfulness and meaningfulness, Re-entering the workplace
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1473685
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3

### About the guest: Hermien Uys

- corporate lawyer · Vedanta · Stellenbosch
- Corporate lawyer in the mining industry who worked on M&A transactions and started as a generalist attorney with a BCom law degree. She took a sabbatical in 2017-2018 after working for Rio Tinto.

In their own words:

> "I'd really, participated in quite a number of, M&A transactions at, at the first two companies that I worked for in mining." [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=172)

> "So I did that for a year, went on a weekly basis after school and sat with the little girl that, that I sort of took care of. So a wonderful enriching experience, and now I'm actually on the board of the mother company" [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1369)

> "I started off as a generalist attorney, as many of us do, you know, depending on what kind of articles you find. But I realized very soon, because I had a, a corporate degree, a BCom law, that, that I wanted to work more in corporate law," [31:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1889)

> "I started with public speaking, which I enjoy very much, and, and usually on these platforms, It's more about, you know, industry issues around sustainability, which is something I would never have done in the past." [43:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2583)

> "I've been a director on a number of subsidiary companies for the mining houses that I've worked for, but that is obviously in an executive capacity." [44:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2694)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

In the third episode of Petro du Pisani's series on conscious breaks from work, Hermien Uys, a corporate lawyer in the mining industry, describes her roughly year-long sabbatical in 2017-2018. She explains why she took it, including mid-career emptiness and a wish for meaning. She also covers how she left Rio Tinto on good terms and how she spent the time: touring India, tutoring children in Stellenbosch, studying wine, reading and consulting. Finally, she discusses re-entering corporate life at Vedanta. Petro shares parallel reflections from her own current sabbatical.

**Key ideas**

- Hermien argues the corporate world consumes both energy and mind space. Petro adds that it absorbs one's whole identity. ([04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=276) [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=276) [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=319))
- Hermien's motivation came from emptiness after career recognition and a wish to leave something beyond a corporate legacy. ([06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=392) [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=471))
- Hermien credits a long notice period and a thorough handover with starting her sabbatical well. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=100) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=668) [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=684))
- Hermien names 'new situation loneliness' as an early challenge, because friends kept working while she had free time. ([11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=709) [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=761))
- Hermien's husband observed that she found her worth in a corporate persona. She now believes there is more to her than that. ([36:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2217) [37:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2267) [37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2273) [38:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2325))
- Petro frames the decision as one of finite time: four thousand weeks, eight hundred of them at one company. ([26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1615) [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1615) [28:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1725))
- Hermien says the break shifted her towards connection with colleagues and advocacy on mining sustainability. ([33:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2001) [40:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2444) [43:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2583))

**Lessons**

- Hermien suggests planning the exit early and leaving on good terms, with a thorough handover. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=214) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=668) [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=684))
- Hermien regrets spending the end of her sabbatical job-hunting and suggests leaving that for later. ([29:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1784))
- Petro kept a routine with early rising and exercise, treating the break as reflection time rather than a holiday. ([14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=849))
- Hermien now protects annual travel and December breaks that she once sacrificed for transactions. ([45:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2732))
- Both speakers link the ability to take a break to savings and planning. Petro describes ten years of preparation. ([47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2828) [47:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2862))

**Who it's for:** Mid-career corporate professionals, especially in demanding sectors such as mining or law, who are considering a sabbatical or career break and want a first-hand account of motivations, exit planning, how to use the time and re-entry.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Hermien graduated in law from the University of Stellenbosch in 1994. ([01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=100))
- Hermien took her sabbatical around 2017-2018. It lasted more or less a year. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=214))
- Hermien took about 1,800 photographs on a two-week Wild Frontiers tour of India. ([19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1177))
- Hermien says only about twenty or thirty Cape Wine Masters exist in South Africa, and the full course has four modules. ([24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1465))
- Petro calculated she had spent eight hundred of her roughly four thousand weeks at one company. ([26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1615))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why would a successful lawyer take a sabbatical?**
A: Hermien describes emptiness after career recognition, long M&A hours, her mother's death and a wish to do something more meaningful and to travel. ([02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=172) [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=392) [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=471))

**Q: Do you have to resign to take a sabbatical?**
A: Hermien chose to leave Rio Tinto when her role reached a natural end. She worked a five or six month notice period and handed over thoroughly. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=214) [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=668) [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=684))

**Q: What is hard about the first weeks of a career break?**
A: Hermien says the loss of routine brought 'new situation loneliness' because friends were still working. Petro felt she should constantly be doing something. ([11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=709) [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=761) [13:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=802))

**Q: What can you do during a sabbatical?**
A: Hermien toured India's Golden Triangle and tutored a child weekly for a year. She also completed two Cape Wine Masters certificates, read about meaningfulness, did Pilates and did some consulting. ([17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1024) [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1125) [22:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1332) [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1465))

**Q: Is it hard to go back to work after a sabbatical?**
A: Hermien says re-entry was not easy. She could not find a role in a new industry in Cape Town and was headhunted by Vedanta for similar work. ([21:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1297) [40:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2444) [41:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2494))

**Q: Would you take another sabbatical?**
A: Hermien says she would likely take a shorter break of two or three months, possibly to complete a non-executive director certificate. ([44:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2678) [44:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2694))

**Q: How does a sabbatical affect self-worth?**
A: Hermien's husband told her she had found her worth in a corporate persona. She now believes she can add value beyond her intellect and project skills. ([36:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2217) [37:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2267) [38:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2325))


### Passage: How Hermien came to take a sabbatical [01:40–05:12, 587 words]

Note (AI): Traces the motivation from a student gap-year envy through M&A workload to negotiating an exit with Rio Tinto.

Hermien Uys, guest [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=100):
> I think it started with two of my friends. We were four close friends at University of Stellenbosch where we studied law. And, two of my friends after we graduated in 1994 took a gap year. And I thought this was so, romantic and, exhilarating to be able to go to London at the age of 22. so they worked for about, eight months, and then they traveled Europe for four months with the money that they earned whilst working, you know, in the first period of the break. my father, however, was much more strict, and he said, look, I paid for you. nowadays, I think that, you know, it, it, it is quite a, a thing if, if parents can pay for their children all the way through. So, so my dad paid for us. We went to hostel, and, it was a fantastic experience altogether. But once the five years was over, my dad said, look, you need to start working now, which was such a good lesson, must, I must say. But in retrospect, when I reached the age of, I think it was about 46, 47, I'm jumping ahead now, I'd really, participated in quite a number of, M&A transactions at, at the first two companies that I worked for in mining. and, and M&A is, is really sort of quite time driven. you work long hours to get these transactions completed. and I thought back about that period in time, and I, I also wanted to have that experience of, you know, time off and, travel, et cetera. So, it, it also started, a while before I actually embarked on the journey. So I think, I mentioned to you that, that I took my break in 2017, 2018 thereabouts, but it, it started earlier by having a conversation with my then employer, Rio Tinto, which I must say they were, they were, you know, willing to, to, to, to hear me out on this idea of taking a six-month break. in the end, what happened is that we moved to Cape Town after having stayed in Johannesburg for about thirteen years. My husband got a new role. I, I worked for a year, then they're still out of Cape Town. But, but the role sort of came to a natural end after we finished a last sort of sale transaction. And I thought, well, you know, I actually want to take more than just six months. So it, it, it all worked out very well. We parted on friendly terms. And, here I was also at the beginning of a very exciting journey, as, as you are now embarking on. yes, the main aim was to do travel, but also, I think, for me, to do things that I did not have time to do whilst working in the corporate world. So I think the corporate world is a beast of its own. It takes up A lot of your energy, but also a lot of your mind space. So once you, you have that freedom to really think what it is you want to do with your time, I filled up my diary quite quickly with other activities, which some of them might not sound that exhilarating, but it's stuff that you don't get around to while you're in the corporate world. So I'll pause there, before getting into the detail of what I did with my time. I'm not sure whether you want to, steer me in another direction.


### Passage: Expectations, emptiness and wanting a legacy [06:32–08:58, 413 words]

Note (AI): Shows the mid-career emptiness, a mentor's influence and a parent's death shaping the wish for meaning, and admits the plan did not fully materialise.

Hermien Uys, guest [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=392):
> I thought it would be an experience that would broaden my perspective, and, I, I was already at that point in time, I, I, I remember doing a short course at Gibbs about emotional intelligence. I think these subjects start becoming relevant in your middle forties, you know, once you've reached a certain, trajectory in your career, you start thinking about these topics, and, as I said, I did this course, and one of the senior leaders in Rio Tinto acted as a mentor to me. It was such a exhilarating Experience for me to do that, and he was a person that I worked with closely at Rossing in Namibia. He came out to work for a certain period of time in Africa and then went back to Australia, which I think is motherland for, or, home base for Rio Tinto. but it was a wonderful experience to interact with him, and he also told me that he started so early in his career, I think he, he mentioned something at the age of 16, and we had this conversation already at that stage about doing something more meaningful with your time. So I think, yes, I wanted to do the travel bit, as I mentioned to you at the beginning, but I also wanted to do something more meaningful with my life. I was experiencing an emptiness sometimes. Once you've completed certain transactions, you've received recognition in your career, it's all good and well, but then you also start realizing life is Not only about that, I think I might have mentioned to you that my mother also passed away during this period. So it was a time of reflection and, you know, my dad didn't cope too well at the beginning being on his own. So all of that just came together. So I think I realized that I would spend quite a bit of time trying to improve myself, trying to broaden my, vision as to what it is I want to leave behind almost as a legacy, not only this corporate person having, you know, excelled in the business world, but is there something else to add me? Did it turn out a hundred percent like that? No. As we're getting to, as we're getting to the detail, unfortunately not. It sounds very romantic, and I did do a lot of planning around it, but it did not pan out one hundred percent as I thought it would.


### Passage: New situation loneliness after leaving work [11:49–13:21, 255 words]

Note (AI): Names a concrete early-sabbatical challenge, isolation while friends keep working, that prospective sabbatical-takers can prepare for.

Hermien Uys, guest [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=709):
> It's quite an adjustment, can I say, in the sense that you and I just spoke about corporate life now. If you've worked your entire life, which I did up until that stage, it's difficult to adjust that quickly because you, you, in a routine, you know, you, you get up, you would know every day and, and you, you get to the office at a certain time and, and the day just passes by with meetings and all things to do. And now, I mean, my husband does the same thing, so he would leave for his work and I would be at home. And yes, it is an adjustment at the beginning because I followed Gretchen Rubin on LinkedIn and, and all kinds of social media and she's written a well-known book about the happiness project, but she's also written quite a bit about loneliness. Types of loneliness, and there's one, one type of loneliness that she describes as new situation loneliness. And, and this was what I was experiencing because the other people carried on, all my friends worked, other people carried on with their day jobs, and their normal routine, suddenly you had a lot of free time. Yes, you, you've got planned activities, but it does not necessarily fill up your entire day. So other people can't just take off at ten in the morning and, and go for coffee. So yeah, it was an adjustment, but I soon got into a routine as to how to fill my day.


### Passage: Volunteering in Stellenbosch and the Cape Wine course [22:08–24:55, 451 words]

Note (AI): Details how she filled the break with weekly tutoring, which led to a board seat, and structured wine study.

Hermien Uys, guest [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1328):
> And then, as I said, just a bit more detail, the volunteering bit is I joined a group of people in the hometown where I live, Stellenbosch, that do work with children after school that do not necessarily have support at home when they get home after school to help them with their homework. Reading is especially, a challenge. People do not, sit with young children and help them. They do not learn to read properly at an early stage. So, again, a wonderful experience for me. We Had a child dedicated, to us for, for care and, and development. So I did that for a year, went on a weekly basis after school and sat with the little girl that, that I sort of took care of. So a wonderful enriching experience, and now I'm actually on the board of the mother company that, that does all of these outreaches in the Stellenbosch community. So a different role from what I did in 2017, 2018, but also a wonderful experience For me to know that I think you get so caught up in what you do people have got this idea of Stellenbosch it's only rich people that live here and it's a very affluent town but there's a lot of communities in Stellenbosch that that do not reflect that and it just opened my eyes again to realize when I go to bed in the evenings not everybody has the same surroundings or food available to them so a wonderful opportunity to do that and then thirdly as I said I I did a Cape Wine Masters course also because grew up in Stellenbosch and I thought to myself yes I know a lot about wine my father was also in the wine industry But I did know a lot about, you know, grapes and wine making. and here I am in this beautiful town with all of these vineyards surrounding us when we drive around. I know the wine, but the end product, but I don't really know what happens from the, the vineyard to the wine, actually. And that was also so enriching. I learned such a lot of things. I completed the first two certificates, so if you want to do a, a full wine master's course, there's only a handful of them in South Africa, I think twenty or thirty, you have to do four modules, so maybe we don't know. I can do the other two when I've, when I've got time available later on, but also very enriching experience learning to taste wines blindly, which is also quite difficult. I thought I knew a lot, but I struggled, and, yeah, very enriching experience.


### Passage: Husband's view and self-worth beyond corporate [36:57–39:13, 347 words]

Note (AI): Captures the central insight that her worth had been tied to a corporate persona and how the break changed that.

Hermien Uys, guest [36:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2217):
> I think my husband, we've got, we, we actually met, and I'll just give you this background, during the MBA, and, we've got very different personalities. I'm, I'm a bit of, you know, OCD, as I said, very, very sort of perfectionist and everything has to be done right away, and my husband is a much more relaxed person, an engineer that turned into a, a asset manager. so he, he was very supportive of me doing this, because I think he, he, he saw me on my little treadmill every day at work, thinking that she needs to get a bit of a break. So very supportive, and because he's got a different kind of personality than I do, I think he was totally okay with the fact that I took time out. He also said to me something that, that, that I'm still, thinking about till today is that I seem to have found my worth in that corporate persona, and I was sometimes afraid that people would not see me as worthy when I did this, and, and that I, I, should have confidence in, in the fact that there's different values, hidden in my personality outside of only being a corporate person, and that to me was so, valuable because we also become that. We become the person that you said you've been in corporate world for twenty-five years. You are that person that people see every day. People don't see other aspects of you, and when you take time out and you do other stuff, people see you in a different light, and you yourself, see yourself in a different light, and Believe and I now firmly believe that there's more to me than that corporate person and I can contribute in the corporate world still different things, not not only my intellect and my project management skills and whatever else people might say about me on LinkedIn I'm good at, but there's much more to me as a person that can add value to other people's lives in a different way.


### Passage: Re-entering corporate and carrying the lessons [40:44–44:17, 559 words]

Note (AI): Covers the difficulty of re-entry, being headhunted by Vedanta and the lasting shift towards sustainability advocacy and connection.

Hermien Uys, guest [40:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2444):
> I actually tried to, as I mentioned earlier on, we moved to Cape Town because of a position that my husband obtained here in Cape Town, and at that stage I was working for Rio Tinto. They were very supportive of me working out of Cape Town because at that stage I'd worked for them for, I think, five, four, five years, so they knew my work ethic, totally fine with me, got a small office in Cape Town for me. But after a while, with the sabbatical, as I said, I, I wanted to re-enter the world of work and wanted to look for something in Cape Town. could not find something. it's amazing, you know, I've got quite a bit of business development experience, and I thought I could transition into a different industry, but with that sort of corporate commercial experience. Found very hard and, got headhunted then for this role at Vedanta, so ended up doing the same thing basically, but just at a different mining house. And it was quite a different experience in the sense that the work, the kind of legal work and, and, disputes that we were involved in were different from the kind of work that I've done before. So at least from that perspective, you know, it was something different, but, every company is obviously different and it's a different culture and a different environment, so I think I was Of to have taken the sabbatical well equipped to handle that kind of environment.

Petro du Pisani, host [42:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2535):
> Yeah. And, and the lessons that you learned during the sabbatical, I call it a sabbatical mindsets, are you carrying those with you and applying them now?

Hermien Uys, guest [42:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2545):
> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I, I, as I said, I, I've become more involved with this, Stalembomb organization in Stellenbosch, trying to obviously keep up my exercise and health routine, and also a bit about mindfulness, trying to be that person that speaks to colleagues more and, and making those real connections, which we sometimes neglect to do because we're so busy with work and emails and meetings, trying to be more mindful. I've also started to be more of a, a advocate for certain issues in the industry, if I might call it that. You know, I started with public speaking, which I enjoy very much, and, and usually on these platforms, It's more about, you know, industry issues around sustainability, which is something I would never have done in the past. I, I would have just focused on my M&A transaction or my refinancing transaction, all about banking law and mining law. Now I'm also interested in industry issues and is the industry really making a difference? I also looked at, starting a PhD, but, but that was put on hold because of, work pressure last year. Again, on a sustainability topic where I spoke to a professor at UCT who's at the, I think they call it the, the mining law chair, at, at UCT around the, yeah, as I said, around the sustainability topic. So that focus has changed, you know, only doing sort of the work that you're supposed to be responsible for, as opposed to leaning into more general but important topics. That is going to be a conversation point for people for many years to come now with the energy transition.


### Quotes

> "So I think the corporate world is a beast of its own."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=276)

> "the struggle is not found on the path, it is the path."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [25:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1555)

> "I'd read somewhere that you only get four thousand weeks to live."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1615)

> "I read a quote by Mia Angelou the other day that says at the age of fifty I became the person I was training to be"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [28:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1705)

> "because I think before, for me, it was blind ambition, if I might call it that,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1859)

> "you must take time to ask people about their day"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [33:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2012)

> "I seem to have found my worth in that corporate persona,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [37:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2273)

> "I think you have to be courageous to do this."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [46:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2773)

> "we're going to live longer. you can have a career way beyond sixty."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · [47:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2835)

> "otherwise you end up 80 years old and you've never really reflected on who you are and what you're doing here."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [48:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2890)


### Claims

> "I think it started with two of my friends. We were four close friends at University of Stellenbosch where we studied law. And, two of my friends after we graduated in 1994 took a gap year."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [01:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=100)

> "I'd really, participated in quite a number of, M&A transactions at, at the first two companies that I worked for in mining."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Career background · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=172)

> "it started earlier by having a conversation with my then employer, Rio Tinto, which I must say they were, they were, you know, willing to, to, to, to hear me out on this idea of taking a six-month break."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Leaving corporate on good terms · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=214)

> "So I think the corporate world is a beast of its own. It takes up A lot of your energy, but also a lot of your mind space."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Self-worth beyond corporate · [04:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=276)

> "It almost takes up your entire being. You actually become this corporate person, this complete corporate animal, and your whole life revolves around corporates and all of the deadlines that, that brings with it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-worth beyond corporate · [05:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=319)

> "I was experiencing an emptiness sometimes. Once you've completed certain transactions, you've received recognition in your career, it's all good and well, but then you also start realizing life is Not only about that,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=471)

> "It sounds very romantic, and I did do a lot of planning around it, but it did not pan out one hundred percent as I thought it would."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [08:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=530)

> "So for me to have taken a sabbatical and not having that work obligation, or thought in the back of my mind was the best thing for me to do."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=599)

> "I think I worked about a five or six month notice period, because they all knew long before I was going to go, this is what's going to happen."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Leaving corporate on good terms · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=668)

> "If you've got that sort of entry almost into your sabbatical of leaving the corporate world in such a organized fashion, and everybody wishes you well, you're off to a good start."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Leaving corporate on good terms · [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=684)

> "Types of loneliness, and there's one, one type of loneliness that she describes as new situation loneliness. And, and this was what I was experiencing because the other people carried on, all my friends worked,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Adjusting to free time · [12:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=761)

> "I remember the first, within the first two weeks that I'd left, I went to watch a movie at 10:45 in the morning, and then I went and ate carrot cake afterwards."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Adjusting to free time · [13:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=802)

> "I was very adamant that I would have a routine, okay? I wasn't going to, I was still going to get up at six o'clock in the morning. I was going to do my exercise, because it wasn't supposed to be a holiday."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Adjusting to free time · [14:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=849)

> "Volunteering was an important thing because I thought to myself, this discussion that I had with a colleague of Rio that I mentioned to you when I did the emotional intelligence course, it keeps already created that idea that it's not all about me."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Volunteering and giving back · [15:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=948)

> "I did a bit of consulting work, which was also good. I think that quick turn off of not doing any work at all is also good to keep your mind sort of practicing."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Adjusting to free time · [17:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1024)

> "So I booked a tour through a company called Wild Frontiers. They're quite well known. and went with a group of people. I think we were about eighteen, twenty thereabouts, mostly people from the UK."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Travel and personal enrichment · [18:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1125)

> "I think I took about 1,800 photographs during this two-week trip, and some of my photographs was posted on the Wild Frontiers, database"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Travel and personal enrichment · [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1177)

> "you get the 50%, you know, people falling into a category that will be like me, totally ecstatic, and you will have 50% of people saying, never again, because, because it's not, it's not easy travel."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Travel and personal enrichment · [19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1198)

> "I went back to corporate world and I joined the third company that I worked for in the mining world and Is an Indian company."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [21:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1297)

> "I joined a group of people in the hometown where I live, Stellenbosch, that do work with children after school that do not necessarily have support at home when they get home after school to help them with their homework."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Volunteering and giving back · [22:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1332)

> "So I did that for a year, went on a weekly basis after school and sat with the little girl that, that I sort of took care of. So a wonderful enriching experience, and now I'm actually on the board of the mother company"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Volunteering and giving back · [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1369)

> "I completed the first two certificates, so if you want to do a, a full wine master's course, there's only a handful of them in South Africa, I think twenty or thirty, you have to do four modules,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Travel and personal enrichment · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1465)

> "patience is not about waiting, it's the ability to keep a good attitude while working hard on your dreams, knowing that the work is worth it. And you will realize that the struggle is not found on the path, it is the path."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Mindfulness and meaningfulness · [25:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1545)

> "Dale Carnegie is one of the books that I read. He, he talks about daytight compartments. forget about the past, and, and do not focus so much on the future, but remember today what it is that you want to do today and achieve today."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Mindfulness and meaningfulness · [26:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1579)

> "I'd read somewhere that you only get four thousand weeks to live. And I realized towards the end of, Last year that I'd spent eight hundred of those weeks for the same company."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1615)

> "I found the books by James Hollis to be very, very worthwhile as well. He writes a lot about the second half of life."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindfulness and meaningfulness · [27:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1636)

> "I think you have to be very deliberate about how you want to spend that time And that that for me was the was the epiphany it was how how do I want to spend my time"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindfulness and meaningfulness · [28:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1725)

> "I spent quite a bit of time towards the end of the sabbatical to obviously find opportunities to re-enter the corporate world. Yes, that, that ate away at some of my time, and I think maybe I, I, I should have left that for a bit later,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [29:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1784)

> "I started off as a generalist attorney, as many of us do, you know, depending on what kind of articles you find. But I realized very soon, because I had a, a corporate degree, a BCom law, that, that I wanted to work more in corporate law,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Career background · [31:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=1889)

> "he would knock on my door and have a little chat about How my day was and just this very friendly, polite person. I always remember that he said to me, you must take time to ask people about their day and I thought at that point in my career, this is just a waste of time."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Mindfulness and meaningfulness · [33:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2001)

> "I think that, that is something that surprised me, being good at stuff that I thought only other people could do."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Self-worth beyond corporate · [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2192)

> "He also said to me something that, that, that I'm still, thinking about till today is that I seem to have found my worth in that corporate persona, and I was sometimes afraid that people would not see me as worthy when I did this,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Self-worth beyond corporate · [37:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2267)

> "Believe and I now firmly believe that there's more to me than that corporate person and I can contribute in the corporate world still different things,"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Self-worth beyond corporate · [38:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2325)

> "I wanted to leave that environment to see who I really was without being attached to a corporate and a job and a whatever."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-worth beyond corporate · [39:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2368)

> "I had this choice between like toughing it out in the corporate world for another ten years and then retiring at sixty and then doing my own thing, or do I do it now when I've got the energy,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [40:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2412)

> "Found very hard and, got headhunted then for this role at Vedanta, so ended up doing the same thing basically, but just at a different mining house."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [41:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2494)

> "I started with public speaking, which I enjoy very much, and, and usually on these platforms, It's more about, you know, industry issues around sustainability, which is something I would never have done in the past."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [43:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2583)

> "I also looked at, starting a PhD, but, but that was put on hold because of, work pressure last year. Again, on a sustainability topic"
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Re-entering the workplace · [43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2613)

> "I don't think I'll take a year. Maybe, as I said, a shorter break, two or three months."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Future breaks · [44:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2678)

> "I've been a director on a number of subsidiary companies for the mining houses that I've worked for, but that is obviously in an executive capacity."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Career background · [44:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2694)

> "I, I do sort of insist on doing that travel in June, July to Europe, taking your proper December break, whereas in the past I would have compromised on, in favor of completing some or other transaction at work."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Future breaks · [45:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2732)

> "If you have got the ability to do it, you have got a bit of corporate savings, I would encourage people to do that because we're going to live longer. you can have a career way beyond sixty."
> — Hermien Uys, guest · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [47:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2828)

> "it took a lot of, it took quite a lot of planning and saving and, and all of that to be able to eventually do this."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why take a sabbatical · [47:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1473685_high.mp3#t=2862)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

The transformative power of a sabbatical. Episode 3 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from work. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Hermien Uys, a corporate lawyer in the mining industry. Hermien took a sabbatical in 2017-2018. She discusses her motivations for taking the break which include a desire for travel and personal enrichment. During her sabbatical, Hermien traveled to India, volunteered with underprivileged children, took a wine course, and spent time reading and reflecting on mindfulness and meaningfulness. The key takeaway is the value of taking a career break for personal growth and finding fulfilment beyond professional success. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #028 The Realignment Pause | Lizette Spangenberg

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/028-the-realignment-pause/
- Date: 2024-08-08 (as at 2024-08-08)
- Guest: Lizette Spangenberg
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Sabbaticals and career breaks, Burnout and self-care, Career realignment and purpose, Climbing Kilimanjaro, Healthcare and UX design, Mental health support
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1469098
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3

### About the guest: Lizette Spangenberg

- South Africa
- Completed a PhD in healthcare design (2019 to 2022) while working, rose from junior designer to head of design, and took sabbaticals in 2017 to climb Mount Kilimanjaro and for three and a half months after her PhD.

In their own words:

> "The second one, I did my PhD from 2019 until end of 2022, and then I had my viva in January 2023." [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=304)

> "So I started as a junior designer, became intermediate, senior design lead. I then became a practice lead, and then I became the head of design. And in the same vein, I did my undergrad, I did my master's while I was working, and then I did my PhD while I was working." [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=505)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

In the second episode of Petro du Pisani's series on conscious breaks from work, Lizette Spangenberg describes two sabbaticals. The first was a goal-driven month in 2017 to climb Kilimanjaro. The second was an open-ended break of three and a half months after finishing her PhD, taken while she was burnt out from heading a design team. She covers her career path into healthcare design and the burnout that led to the second break. She also talks about seeing a psychologist, embracing ambiguity, and the balance and presence she has carried into her current job. The host adds her own experience of leaving corporate life and argues for coaching in every area of life.

**Key ideas**

- Lizette says she realised dreams only become real if you act on them, which led her to plan and save for Kilimanjaro. ([01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=103) [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=144) [02:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=151))
- Lizette describes reaching head of design and a PhD, then asking 'now what?' because she had planned nothing beyond those goals. ([06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=419) [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=505) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=523))
- Lizette argues that excellence at work need not cost you your soul or your life outside work. ([19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1165) [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1165) [21:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1282))
- Lizette links design's embrace of ambiguity to how she handled an unstructured sabbatical. ([22:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1330) [24:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1454) [24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1463))
- Lizette urges people to seek a psychologist or coach before they are in crisis. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=586) [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1093) [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1953) [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1953))
- The host questions why people must reach burnout before taking a break. ([30:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1802))
- Lizette admires the idea of taking years from retirement as periodic sabbaticals rather than waiting until old age. ([27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1625) [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1641) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1677))

**Lessons**

- Lizette's experience suggests that stepping deliberately out of a comfort zone, even when it is frightening, can open new possibilities. ([10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=642) [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=681))
- Lizette found that resting, even watching reality TV, was a necessary first phase after severe burnout. ([12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=771) [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=807))
- Lizette says she asks whether something matters in the bigger scheme before getting worked up, and lets it go if it does not. ([26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1580))
- Lizette credits a psychologist with giving her language for patterns like catastrophizing. ([30:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1841) [30:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1842))
- Lizette says conscious breaks built into her current work keep her from burning out. ([28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1708))

**Who it's for:** Professionals considering a sabbatical or career break, people feeling burnt out or stuck after reaching career milestones, designers interested in healthcare, and anyone weighing whether to seek a psychologist or coach before a crisis.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Lizette took her first sabbatical, a month, in 2017 to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. ([01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=116))
- Lizette did her PhD from 2019 to end of 2022, with her viva in January 2023. ([05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=304))
- Before her second sabbatical Lizette was managing fifty-four people in a management role. ([05:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=352))
- Lizette's second sabbatical lasted three and a half months. ([04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=280))
- Lizette describes a designer who closes his studio for a year every seven years to take a sabbatical. ([27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1641))
- The host went through a corporate restructure in 2014 and decided it would be her last. ([00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=2))
- Lizette has been with her current employer for a year. ([24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1497))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How do you prepare for a sabbatical to climb Kilimanjaro?**
A: Lizette decided at the start of 2016, then began exercising, saving and researching. She took a month off in 2017 to summit with her brother and travel through Kenya and Tanzania. ([01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=103) [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=116) [02:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=151))

**Q: Is it risky to take a sabbatical without a job to return to?**
A: Lizette resigned before her first sabbatical and was 'fun-employed' with no guaranteed job. She found it nerve-wracking, but a company she had interviewed with before the trip hired her when she returned. ([03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=215) [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=232) [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=235))

**Q: What happens in the first weeks of a sabbatical when you're burnt out?**
A: Lizette planned to write research papers. Instead she watched a lot of reality TV and has zero regrets, because she was very burnt out after doing a PhD during COVID. ([12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=771) [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=807))

**Q: Why do high achievers feel lost after reaching their goals?**
A: Lizette says that after becoming head of design and finishing a PhD she asked 'now what?' She had only focused on doing the expected things and had not planned beyond them. ([06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=419) [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=523) [08:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=526))

**Q: Should I see a psychologist even if I'm not in crisis?**
A: Lizette says everyone should see a psychologist earlier. It helps with stress, burnout and balance, and you don't need to be in crisis to reach out. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=586) [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1093) [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1953))

**Q: How can a sabbatical help you find the right next job?**
A: Lizette says it gave her time to research companies and embrace ambiguity. She found a healthcare design employer that fit her exactly, and says she would not have got there without the break. ([22:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1330) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1497) [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1506))

**Q: Is healthcare design a big field in South Africa?**
A: Lizette says it is very scarce in South Africa compared with Europe or America. She knows of about four companies and now works for one of them. ([14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=876))

**Q: What lessons from a sabbatical can you keep once back at work?**
A: Lizette says she keeps checking whether issues actually matter and letting go of those that don't. She also tries to stay present, and she builds conscious breaks into her work. ([26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1580) [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1625) [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1708))


### Passage: The Kilimanjaro sabbatical: turning a dream into a plan [01:43–02:55, 206 words]

Note (AI): Shows how Lizette moved from 'one day' thinking to a year of exercising, saving and researching for a month-long goal-driven break.

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=103):
> So I've taken two sabbaticals, and both of those were for very different reasons. Vastly differently structured and had very different outcomes, if I can call it that. So the first one I took in 2017 for a month, and I had a very specific goal. I wanted to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. So I was at a point in my life where I'd been working for a few years, I'd always loved traveling, and I started finding that a lot of people would always say, oh, one day I want to see the Northern Lights, and one day I want to do this. And I realized that I also have those, and I also have these ideas of things I'd love to do, and it just suddenly kind of dawned on me that you kind of have to do something to make those dreams a reality. So beginning of 2016, I decided I want to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. I started exercising, I started saving, started researching, and yeah, then eventually made that a reality. So I took a month off work and summited Kilimanjaro with my brother, and then took the rest of the month to travel through Kenya and Tanzania, and it was absolutely incredible.


### Passage: PhD, managing 54 people and losing touch with design [04:40–06:34, 306 words]

Note (AI): Sets out the conditions that led to her second, unstructured sabbatical: finishing a PhD, heavy management load and a disconnect from her passion.

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=280):
> So my second sabbatical was last year for three and a half months, and that also coincided with leaving an employer and then looking for something new, but that was very, very different. So the first one had a very specific goal. So I was going to climb Kilimanjaro, had the trek set, organized with a guide, tour, all of that. The second one, I did my PhD from 2019 until end of 2022, and then I had my viva in January 2023. So a viva, it used to be called a defense. It's essentially where you meet with your examiners, they have some questions, and they just want to talk about your ideas. But it's still extremely nerve-wracking because I had, international examiners who are experts in the field that I was working in, which is healthcare design, and it was simultaneously very exciting and very terrifying meeting these people. For the six months leading up to that point, which was the end of my PhD, I'd been starting to realize that I wasn't quite sure if I was in the right role. I was in a management position. I was managing fifty-four people, which no one should ever have to do, way more than anyone should ever have to do, and I was not doing any actual design work anymore. So I was purely in management. I was in charge of retrenching people, I was in charge of, discussing salaries and having performance reviews and talking to people, and reviews weren't good, and when we couldn't give them a fifteen percent raise and all sorts of things like that, and it really started to weigh on me, because my passion is in design, and with doing my PhD in healthcare design, I realized that that is actually where my passion lies, is Helping people.


### Passage: Climbing the ladder and asking 'now what?' [06:59–09:28, 425 words]

Note (AI): Describes the post-achievement crisis of reaching head of design and a PhD without a plan for what came next.

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=419):
> Yeah, definitely, because it was that whole idea of, because I found myself in management, I realized I'm spending my days telling people they can't have raises, we can't afford to keep them on, and it's a very important role in a company, but it was not something that I was passionate about. I wanted to be the person to actually help people, to either mentor designers, helping them grow as people, as designers, or to help people through my design work, which I know can be quite impactful. So Majority of my family are in medicine. My dad's a doctor, my brother's a doctor, both my grandfathers were doctors. So I've always had a lot of empathy for people within medicine. So that's how I ended up doing my PhD into that field. And then just slowly coming to that realization, like you said, that this area that I'm finding myself in, it's not quite where I want to go with my life. So taking that time to then realize, but is this what I should be doing? And really starting to doubt where I was. So having a bit of a crisis in that sense. So feeling very lost, very untethered. It's apparently something very common after finishing a PhD as well, because that was the other thing. I realized that you start a career and you have this idea, okay, I need to make it. So I started as a junior designer, became intermediate, senior design lead. I then became a practice lead, and then I became the head of design. And in the same vein, I did my undergrad, I did my master's while I was working, and then I did my PhD while I was working. So I got to this point, I'm like, okay, I'm the head of design, I now have a PhD, now what?

Petro du Pisani, host [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=531):
> And you've done everything that everybody's expecting from you. It's almost

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [08:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=534):
> like you're doing exactly what is expected. Yeah, and what I expected of myself. So I was like, I, I didn't think further than this. I, I didn't expect to ever get to this point, but, but now what? So, and it's this strange mindset that you always have to, you, you have to make it. And up until that point, I'd only been focused on, on doing the things. So I did the things, and I'm like, I didn't plan for anything after this. So it forced me to reevaluate, but what did I actually want to do with my life?


### Passage: What the sabbatical taught her about balance [17:53–20:21, 411 words]

Note (AI): Her main lessons: psychological support, the cost of working two jobs, and separating excellence from self-sacrifice.

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [17:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1073):
> Like I said, I started seeing a psychologist during that time, so I think that was really important for me to understand myself a lot better and to understand the way that I process things, to finally understand that my brain genuinely does work different from other people's, because of some of my diagnoses, and I would encourage anyone to go and speak to a psychologist. It can only help you, learn techniques in terms of how to handle stress, how to handle burnout, how to handle that work-life balance. Nice buzzword that everyone's always talking about since COVID, but it's true. I mean, I was doing my PhD after hours while working full-time, so I was working two jobs, essentially, and both were equally important to me. So I didn't have a balance. I was spending my weekends working on my thesis, and I wasn't seeing my friends, and I wasn't seeing my family. I only saw my fiance because he, we lived Together. So seeing him not necessarily spending quality time together, and I think the sabbatical forced me to just stop, take a step back, take a breath, and reevaluate what is actually important to my life. So as I said, a big part of my career up to then had been focused on, you know, I, I Want to be the best in my field. I, I still want to be, obviously, but just realizing that that doesn't have to come at the expense of everything else. You can still be amazing in what you do and not give up a little part of your soul in order to reach it. So learning a bit more about how to balance things and realizing that, you know, traveling, spending time with my friends and family and my fiance, those are things that are really important to me. And while I love my job and I, I really am very passionate about what I do, helping people, you know, get better access to healthcare or whether it's helping doctors who improve their working environments. I can't make that the be all and end all because I lose a little part of myself in the process. It's hard. I, I don't think that I necessarily would have learned that lesson unless I had gone to that extreme where I did burn out very badly and felt like I was starting to lose a little bit of myself in the process.


### Passage: Resilience on the mountain and embracing ambiguity [22:10–25:19, 557 words]

Note (AI): Links the design practice of asking 'why' under ambiguity to how she approached an open-ended sabbatical and found her current role.

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [22:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1330):
> Definitely. I think with the first one, There was a part of me that never actually thought I would, you know, conquer the mountain, because it always seems like this thing, you know, like I've climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, and to, to be able to say that I've done that, I'm still surprised by it. I spoke to someone last week who actually struggled to believe me, because it, it sounds so incredible. It sounds like that pipe dream that you have, and it, it's actually really not, okay, I'm not going to say it's not that hard. It is really hard, but, it is doable. You don't have to be the fittest person on earth, because it's not climbing with scaffolding and all sorts of weird and strange things. It's a walk. you just have to go slowly and pace yourself, and it made me realize that I'm a lot more resilient and stubborn than I might have thought previously, because it's just a matter of keeping going. And then with the second one, I think More and more just becoming comfortable with, I don't know if discomfort is really the word, but what we were talking about earlier, this idea that you throw yourself into something and you, you have to step out of that comfort zone. So you have to embrace the fact that you don't know. That's also a theme that kept coming up in my PhD and as a designer. I mean, when you start a new project, you don't know. The client comes to you with a request and they might say, okay, make the button on this page orange. And we're like, okay, why? No, because no one's clicking on it. Okay, but why is no one clicking on the button? And a series of these questions, you eventually find out, okay, a client wants people to click on the button because then they fill in a form and then their call center calls you back. But the main reason why people aren't clicking on the button is they don't want people to phone them back. They want to be able to send an email and have someone email them back. So getting to the core of what it actually is. So when you start a project or something like that, you don't know the answer. You just know there's a problem and it's a vague one and we have to embrace the ambiguity and figure it out. So I think a big part of my second sabbatical was that, like embracing the ambiguity and Taking the time to then, yeah, research new companies and going on interviews with different places and figuring out what, where would be the right fit for me. And I was lucky that I, I found a company who fit exactly what I wanted to do, and they were exactly at that point where they needed a designer. So I've been with them for a year now, and I'm very excited about the work that we're doing. And I feel like I've landed exactly where I wanted to go. So without taking that sabbatical, I don't think I would have been able to take the time to reflect and grow and learn enough about myself to understand where I needed to go next in my career.


### Passage: Stealing years from retirement: planning future sabbaticals [27:05–29:56, 484 words]

Note (AI): Introduces the seven-year sabbatical model she found inspiring and what she would change and keep for a future break.

Lizette Spangenberg, guest [27:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1625):
> Oh, I'd love to. so when I was researching sabbaticals initially, there's a, quite a well-known designer, Stefan Sagmeister. He does all these incredible campaigns for like Nike and Adidas and et cetera, et cetera. And he has this philosophy that every seven years, he closes his design studio for a year and then takes a sabbatical. And he's done this twice now. And I was reading up about, you know, his background and what he did in that time. For one of them, he lived in Bali for a year and like made furniture. Fascinating story. But, the idea of it was just so interesting to me that we shouldn't wait until you're retired, because his idea was he was stealing years from his retirement and then dispersing them every seven years. I just love this mindset that we shouldn't wait to live our lives until you actually have the time when you're retired. Because at that point, you'll probably be too old to be able to do a lot of the things you might want to, like hiking to Everest Base Camp, which is something that I still want to do. So I would love to take another sabbatical, not anytime soon, maybe in a few years' time. I'm not sure if there's necessarily something that I'd do differently. I, I, well, maybe having a bit more of a goal. Hopefully, with the conscious breaks that I am putting into my work at the moment, I don't feel nearly as burnt out now as I have at previous points in my career. Well, I don't feel burnt out at all, actually. Hopefully, if I do take another sabbatical, I won't be burnt out and I won't need a month of reality TV to recover before I can actually start, you know, vaguely functioning as a human again. Yeah, I, I, I think there's so much value that you can get from it, even just taking that time to spend on things that you're passionate about, whether it's traveling, whether it's hiking, whether it's playing with your pets in your yard, and just being fully present in the moment. Because I think for me, I have a lot of anxiety, so I tend to stress about things that are still going to happen. I tend to obsess about things that have already happened that I can't change, which there's no point in worrying about, but they do You still give me anxiety. So being a lot more focused in the now, really helps me with that. And I think that's definitely another thing that, yeah, I, I brought from my sabbatical mindset is trying to be present in where I am now. And that's definitely something I'd want to carry through to a next sabbatical as well, is just being present with what you're doing at that moment and really fully enjoying it.


### Quotes

> "I was, let's call it fun-employed,"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=235)

> "I was managing fifty-four people, which no one should ever have to do,"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=353)

> "okay, I'm the head of design, I now have a PhD, now what?"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [08:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=526)

> "And it was really powerful to start to understand myself better. So I was diagnosed with OCD and OCPD. So I really like rules and order and planning, and I really structured to deviate from that. And it dawned on me that the irony of having this actual Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, which really likes planning and structure, and I had just gone into a unknown, undetermined sabbatical, which I had a vague idea for what I wanted to do, but no specific structure, no job at the end of it, and it was terrifying."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [09:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=599)

> "I want To actually want to be uncomfortable because that's where growth happens."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=681)

> "And the reality that it came down to is I watched a lot of reality TV. Anything you'd like to know about, fine dining cuisine, home renovation, or, property in the Bahamas, somehow I can tell you a lot about. And I have zero regrets about that. I was very, very burnt out."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=771)

> "I mean, I, I did my PhD during COVID, and because my PhD, also a big part of it focused on interviewing radiologists, it was very hard to get a hold of them because, you know, COVID. they were very burnt out. So I actually had to file for an extension on my PhD for the last year, because I couldn't do it in three years, because I physically couldn't interview the people that were central to my thesis."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=792)

> "One of the first things we did is we traveled to the Drakensberg, went on some hikes, and then my fiance and I got engaged there. So we've been together for six and a half years now. I sort of knew it was coming sometime, but I didn't know when, so that was super exciting. That happened a few weeks after I started my sabbatical, so then a lot of wedding planning happened. So we're getting married at the end of this year, so congratulations. Thank you. So long engagement, lots of time to plan. So it's funny now when people ask me, oh, how's the wedding planning going? You know, how, how are things shaping up? Like, Yeah, I, I did most of that a year ago, like when I was on the sabbatical, so everything's pretty much sorted. It's fantastic."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=941)

> "You can still be amazing in what you do and not give up a little part of your soul in order to reach it."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1165)

> "your work doesn't define you and it's not all-encompassing and you can do great work while still having a life outside of that as well."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [21:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1285)

> "It's a walk. you just have to go slowly and pace yourself,"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1374)

> "we have to embrace the ambiguity and figure it out."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [24:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1463)

> "his idea was he was stealing years from his retirement and then dispersing them every seven years."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1671)

> "it can get very lonely in your own head, and you start reinforcing negative patterns,"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [30:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1842)

> "You don't have to be in crisis before you reach out and have someone to talk to."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1953)


### Claims

> "When I went through a particularly brutal corporate restructure in 2014 at the company I was working at, I decided that would be my last restructure."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=2)

> "So the first one I took in 2017 for a month, and I had a very specific goal. I wanted to climb Mount Kilimanjaro."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Climbing Kilimanjaro · [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=116)

> "it just suddenly kind of dawned on me that you kind of have to do something to make those dreams a reality."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [02:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=144)

> "So beginning of 2016, I decided I want to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. I started exercising, I started saving, started researching, and yeah, then eventually made that a reality."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Climbing Kilimanjaro · [02:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=151)

> "So I resigned my job, went on the trip, had one interview with a new company I was interested in before the trip, and they told me, cool, go and have your holiday."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=215)

> "So I didn't have a job while I was on this sabbatical. I was, let's call it fun-employed, and it was slightly nerve-wracking knowing that I didn't actually have a job to go back to,"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=232)

> "The second one, I did my PhD from 2019 until end of 2022, and then I had my viva in January 2023."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Healthcare and UX design · [05:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=304)

> "I was in a management position. I was managing fifty-four people, which no one should ever have to do, way more than anyone should ever have to do, and I was not doing any actual design work anymore."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [05:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=352)

> "because my passion is in design, and with doing my PhD in healthcare design, I realized that that is actually where my passion lies, is Helping people."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [06:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=384)

> "I had exactly that same aha moment looking around at what everybody in the open plan office was doing and going, I don't want to be here."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [06:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=402)

> "Majority of my family are in medicine. My dad's a doctor, my brother's a doctor, both my grandfathers were doctors. So I've always had a lot of empathy for people within medicine."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Healthcare and UX design · [07:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=453)

> "So I started as a junior designer, became intermediate, senior design lead. I then became a practice lead, and then I became the head of design. And in the same vein, I did my undergrad, I did my master's while I was working, and then I did my PhD while I was working."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=505)

> "So I got to this point, I'm like, okay, I'm the head of design, I now have a PhD, now what?"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=523)

> "So once I actually started this sabbatical, I did also start seeing a psychologist for the first time in my life, which was long overdue. Everyone should see a psychologist, I think, much earlier in their lives."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Mental health support · [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=586)

> "So I was diagnosed with OCD and OCPD. So I really like rules and order and planning, and I really structured to deviate from that."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Mental health support · [10:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=604)

> "But at the same time, I knew that before I started it, that this was going to be scary, but it was the only way to force myself out of that comfort zone, out of this cocoon that I've sort of created, and force myself to explore new possibilities."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [10:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=642)

> "You first have to have that uncomfortable feeling, that dissonance, because that dissonance pushes you towards, really, really delving deep into who you want to be and what you want to become"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [11:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=685)

> "And the reality that it came down to is I watched a lot of reality TV. Anything you'd like to know about, fine dining cuisine, home renovation, or, property in the Bahamas, somehow I can tell you a lot about. And I have zero regrets about that."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [12:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=771)

> "So I actually had to file for an extension on my PhD for the last year, because I couldn't do it in three years, because I physically couldn't interview the people that were central to my thesis."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=807)

> "I started looking at different employers and found that it is a very scarce field within South Africa. If you look at Europe or America, there are big companies that actually employ designers to help them."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Healthcare and UX design · [14:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=876)

> "One of the first things we did is we traveled to the Drakensberg, went on some hikes, and then my fiance and I got engaged there."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=941)

> "And during COVID, we all became a little bit housebound, and a lot of that was necessary for me to just break away from that and just get used to going out again"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [17:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1046)

> "and I would encourage anyone to go and speak to a psychologist. It can only help you, learn techniques in terms of how to handle stress, how to handle burnout, how to handle that work-life balance."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Mental health support · [18:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1093)

> "I mean, I was doing my PhD after hours while working full-time, so I was working two jobs, essentially, and both were equally important to me. So I didn't have a balance."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [18:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1111)

> "You can still be amazing in what you do and not give up a little part of your soul in order to reach it."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [19:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1165)

> "I, I don't think that I necessarily would have learned that lesson unless I had gone to that extreme where I did burn out very badly and felt like I was starting to lose a little bit of myself in the process."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1207)

> "the first couple of weeks as well, it's just disentangling yourself from your personality, you know, from the work that you were doing into just becoming yourself again."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [20:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1225)

> "just realizing that in the end your, your work doesn't define you and it's not all-encompassing and you can do great work while still having a life outside of that as well."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [21:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1282)

> "You don't have to be the fittest person on earth, because it's not climbing with scaffolding and all sorts of weird and strange things. It's a walk. you just have to go slowly and pace yourself,"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Climbing Kilimanjaro · [22:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1366)

> "it made me realize that I'm a lot more resilient and stubborn than I might have thought previously, because it's just a matter of keeping going."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Climbing Kilimanjaro · [22:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1379)

> "The client comes to you with a request and they might say, okay, make the button on this page orange. And we're like, okay, why? No, because no one's clicking on it."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Healthcare and UX design · [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1419)

> "So when you start a project or something like that, you don't know the answer. You just know there's a problem and it's a vague one and we have to embrace the ambiguity and figure it out."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Healthcare and UX design · [24:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1454)

> "So I've been with them for a year now, and I'm very excited about the work that we're doing. And I feel like I've landed exactly where I wanted to go."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Career realignment and purpose · [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1497)

> "So without taking that sabbatical, I don't think I would have been able to take the time to reflect and grow and learn enough about myself to understand where I needed to go next in my career."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [25:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1506)

> "So being able to just take a breath and say, okay, this thing that I'm getting worked up about, is this actually worth my time? No. Does it actually matter in the bigger scheme of things? No. So let it go."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1580)

> "And he has this philosophy that every seven years, he closes his design studio for a year and then takes a sabbatical. And he's done this twice now."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1641)

> "I just love this mindset that we shouldn't wait to live our lives until you actually have the time when you're retired."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Sabbaticals and career breaks · [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1677)

> "Hopefully, with the conscious breaks that I am putting into my work at the moment, I don't feel nearly as burnt out now as I have at previous points in my career."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Burnout and self-care · [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1708)

> "And I think there's so much more discussion and conversation that needs to be had around why do we have to get to that point? Why do you have to get to a point where you're so, you know, drained, to eventually take a break?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Burnout and self-care · [30:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1802)

> "because it can get very lonely in your own head, and you start reinforcing negative patterns, and I have a habit of catastrophizing things, which I never realized there was a word, an actual term for this."
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Mental health support · [30:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1841)

> "I believe you should have coaches for almost every area in your life. You know, you should have a financial coach, somebody who's helping you with your finances, or at least somebody who knows more than you do."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mental health support · [31:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1901)

> "You don't have to be in crisis before you reach out and have someone to talk to. I mean, if I'd had a career coach two years ago to actually speak to about where I was"
> — Lizette Spangenberg, guest · topic: Mental health support · [32:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1469098_high.mp3#t=1953)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Self-care, adventure, and realignment to purpose. Episode 2 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from the rat-race. In this episode, Dr. Lizette Spangenberg shares her experiences of taking two sabbaticals from work. The first sabbatical was for a month in 2017 to climb Mount Kilimanjaro and travel through Kenya and Tanzania. The second sabbatical was for three and a half months in 2022 after completing her PhD, during which she took a break from work, traveled, planned her wedding, and reflected on her career path. Lizette emphasises the importance of self-care and seeking professional help when needed. The interview also touches on her passion for design, healthcare, and helping others through her work. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #027 Purposeful Pauses | Fatima Collins

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/027-purposeful-pauses/
- Date: 2024-08-02 (as at 2024-08-02)
- Guest: Fatima Collins
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Taking conscious career breaks, Introspection and self-discovery, Finding meaningful work, Identity separate from job, Re-entering the workforce, Keeping a sabbatical mindset, Grief and recovery
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1467204
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3

### About the guest: Fatima Collins

- Women in Mining Project Manager · Sibanye-Stillwater
- Began as a microbiologist, worked in corporate banking in Bombay, did her MBA at UCT, then worked in the development sector; Hatha yoga practitioner who took four career breaks for travel, self-discovery, studying and grieving.

In their own words:

> "so I'm Fatima Collins. I currently work as the regional head for women in mining at a mining company. This is my fourth career change," [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=58)

> "I, I, I went back to university, studied part-time, moved to Bombay, worked in corporate banking for a while there. Still wasn't what I thought it would give me. Then I took the sabbatical and I studied full-time for one year. I did my MBA at UCT and things shifted for me." [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645)

> "I think that sabbatical was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because post that, I went into the development sector and I've done various things in development, so, socioeconomic development, local economic development, and I found work incredibly meaningful." [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661)

> "So I'm also, together with a, with my career, I'm also a yoga practitioner. I, I studied, Hatha yoga, and I teach from time to time. But I started the meditation, introspective journey about twenty odd years ago," [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

The first episode of an On Change series in which host Petro du Pisani, herself on a conscious break, talks with Fatima Collins about her four career breaks. Fatima's breaks were for travel, working out what meaningful work meant to her, full-time MBA study and grieving after COVID-19. She discusses introspection, separating identity from job, her relationship with money, and re-entering the workforce. She also describes how she designs her working day around a few meaningful touch points.

**Key ideas**

- Fatima says each of her four breaks had a different reason: travel, finding meaningful work, full-time study and grief. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95) [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=266) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=281))
- Fatima argues you must understand whose race you are running rather than comparing yourself with peers. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=93) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=239) [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=241))
- Fatima insists she is not her job and defines herself separately from her work. ([06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=387) [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=392) [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1512))
- Fatima credits one year of full-time MBA study with giving her job satisfaction for the rest of her career. ([09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=596) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=679))
- Fatima describes introspection as non-linear and lonely, and says working with a trusted person helps you stay on course. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737) [13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868))
- Petro argues that the rat race is hard to see from inside and that people sometimes need to retreat and recover, drawing on Wintering. ([17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1032) [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1587))
- Fatima keeps a sabbatical mindset by building daily touch points with prayer, meditation, people and exercise. ([20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1207) [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308))

**Designing the day around meaningful touch points** ([20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1207) [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308))

1. Through sabbaticals, identify four or five things that are meaningful for your existence.
2. Ensure each day has touch points with those things, such as prayer, meditation, people and exercise.
3. Notice derailment: two or more days of only work means it is time to reevaluate.
4. Pull it back, for example by excusing yourself from meetings or moving a deadline.

**Lessons**

- Fatima found that re-entry after a study break is easier because you can explain yourself better. Unexplained short breaks were harder to explain to others. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1102) [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1116) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1129))
- Fatima says the real learning on her first break came in unplanned moments rather than from the plan itself. ([15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=958) [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=982))
- Fatima learned that grief may have no end date, and that returning to work helped her balance keeping busy with healing. ([19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1176))
- Both speakers value working with a coach or guide who sees what you cannot see. ([13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826))
- Fatima says she did not plan for the internal turmoil that deep introspection brings. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=353))

**Who it's for:** Mid-career professionals considering a sabbatical or career break, people returning to work after study or grief, and anyone trying to separate their identity from their job while still working in a corporate setting.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Fatima's first break was around 1998 to 2000, using South Africa and the UK's two-year working visa option. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95))
- Fatima took a sabbatical in 2008 to study full-time and did her MBA at UCT. ([04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645))
- Fatima says her current role is her fourth career change. ([00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=58))
- Fatima started her meditation and introspective journey about twenty years ago and studied Hatha yoga. ([12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737))
- Petro went through a corporate restructure in 2014 and decided it would be her last. ([00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=2))
- Petro plans a one-year break from employer-type work. ([25:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1534))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why would someone take several career breaks?**
A: Fatima Collins took four: travelling on a UK working visa early in her career, a six-month break to understand meaningful work, a 2008 break to study full-time, and a break to grieve after losing people during COVID-19. ([01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95) [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249) [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=266) [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=281))

**Q: Will taking time off early in my career hurt it?**
A: People warned Fatima that her career would suffer, but twenty-five years later she calls it the best decision. She says the key is to understand whose race you're running and stay in your lane. ([01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=93) [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=143) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=239))

**Q: Is it harder to go back to work after a sabbatical?**
A: Fatima says returning after study was easy because she could explain it as a career shift. A short break was harder because nobody understands a break. After grieving she was nervous, but work helped her heal. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1102) [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1116) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1176))

**Q: How can I keep the benefits of a sabbatical once I'm back at work?**
A: Fatima identifies four or five meaningful things and touches them daily, such as prayer, meditation, people and exercise. When work crowds them out for two or more days, she reevaluates and pulls back. ([20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250) [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308))

**Q: Should I work with a coach while taking a break?**
A: Fatima has worked with one person for twenty years. She says introspection is not linear and a sabbatical is lonely, so a trusted person helps you stay on course. Petro says coaches see things you can't see. ([13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791) [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826) [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868))

**Q: What surprised people most about taking a sabbatical?**
A: Fatima says she did not plan for the internal turmoil of deep introspection. She also had to rethink her relationship with money, which she came to see as an energy rather than something that only comes from a job. ([05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=353) [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=365))

**Q: Can a career break lead to more meaningful work?**
A: Fatima says her MBA year at UCT led her into development work that she found incredibly meaningful. She says that one year gave her job satisfaction for the rest of her working career. ([10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=679))


### Passage: The first sabbatical: travelling instead of building a career [01:33–03:59, 452 words]

Note (AI): Fatima describes deciding to travel in her early twenties despite job and study offers, and the pressure of comparing herself with her peers.

Fatima Collins, guest [01:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=93):
> so I took breaks for various reasons, and I remember the first break I took was sort of '98, '99, just at the very, very beginning of my career. I just started off as a microbiologist. I was working in a laboratory in, in Johannesburg, and, and then I decided I wanted to travel, and South Africa, and UK had that two-year working visa option. So I worked and traveled, but I took a conscious break from building my career. It was at a stage where you sort of in your early twenties, all your friends are getting their dream jobs or doing their articles or getting into their careers, studying further. I, I felt it was a very brave thing to do, you know, to say, I'm going to take these two years and I'm going to do whatever work I get. and, and travel, the intent is not to further my career. So it was a break from actually growing my career. And it was nerve wracking because, universities were offering me positions for my masters and my honors degrees and companies were approaching me for long-term work. And, and people said, you know, you can take holidays, you can work and take holidays, but you don't need to take time off and go traveling. it, your, your career will suffer. I think it was the best decision, Petro. As, as much as, we're always pushing for time and, and rushing. Twenty-five years later, I can say it all works out, the way it does. And it's also your intent. Did I want to be a tourist in those countries, or did I want to be a traveler? And for me, it was about introspection, understanding this big world I'm entering into now, post-university, post working for a year or two. I'm going to be part of this world. Do I understand it? Do I just become another cog in the wheel? So that, that was my first sabbatical, ninety-eight to two thousand. And, I did work because I, I needed to fund these travels. So from time to time, I did work, in, in, in my professional capacity. However, I took a break from the rat race. I took a break from building a career. But, and even then, I, I needed to remind myself that it's my own race, you know, and I think you may know what that feels like because you look at your colleagues and they, you think, oh my God, they, they're doing so much better. I'm two years behind them, or my friends are, you know, they've got so much money now because they've saved up all this money and I've just traveled.


### Passage: From apartheid-era career limits to meaningful work [09:56–11:34, 279 words]

Note (AI): Traces her career path from microbiology through banking to an MBA sabbatical that she says led her into meaningful development work.

Fatima Collins, guest [09:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=596):
> I, I grew up in, south of Johannesburg, a place called Donatia, in the heart of apartheid. So as you know how, how apartheid South Africa was designed, all we knew was the communities in which we lived. So everybody in the Indian community became a lawyer, a doctor, a teacher, an accountant, or an engineer, and, or an entrepreneur. Except, except for that, we weren't really exposed to different careers. So when I finished school, I did a BSc degree, and I, I was, I was enjoying the sciences. It enabled me to work in South Africa, work abroad in laboratories, enabled my travel. Came back to South Africa and was still in, in that, filtration microbiology, biochemistry field, but it wasn't fulfilling. And, I, I, I didn't know what it is that I wanted to do. I, I, I went back to university, studied part-time, moved to Bombay, worked in corporate banking for a while there. Still wasn't what I thought it would give me. Then I took the sabbatical and I studied full-time for one year. I did my MBA at UCT and things shifted for me. I think that sabbatical was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because post that, I went into the development sector and I've done various things in development, so, socioeconomic development, local economic development, and I found work incredibly meaningful. It was like I came back to myself and I had a, a good twenty years ahead of me in terms of work, of my work life, twenty, thirty years ahead of me. So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career.


### Passage: What introspection looks like: yoga and a long-term guide [12:17–13:42, 237 words]

Note (AI): Explains her twenty-year practice of working with one person on self-understanding, and why she says introspection is not linear.

Fatima Collins, guest [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737):
> So I'm also, together with a, with my career, I'm also a yoga practitioner. I, I studied, Hatha yoga, and I teach from time to time. But I started the meditation, introspective journey about twenty odd years ago, and I find that for me, Working with somebody really closely on this journey has been very helpful. I worked with someone for the last twenty years, understanding myself, understanding my patterns, understanding my triggers, where am I now, where would I like to get to, what does contentment look like for me, what does, manifestation look like for me, how do I With the universe, co-create the life I'm looking to lead, instead of just stumbling upon it day after day. For me, I find it important working with someone on this journey, because, you know, often when we have these discussions, she'll come back and say, but remember how far you've come, because, because introspection and, and, and this journey to self-actualization is not linear. You know, it sort of goes up and down, and, and sometimes you feel like you're getting nowhere, but working with somebody helps you stay your course and helps you realign for those days that you, you falter. So for me, introspection looks like finding a path to a more peaceful life and, and creating, creating a life I want as, as, as opposed to living a life that I don't like.


### Passage: Returning to work after four different breaks [18:22–20:06, 307 words]

Note (AI): Compares how easy or hard re-entry was after study, a short break and grief, and how people received her.

Fatima Collins, guest [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1102):
> So I think, post MBA, it was easier because, I now understood what I'd like to do in terms of work, finding meaningful work. So the, the issue about doing what I love was exciting. Coming back to the workforce after taking a sabbatical from, from, for studying is always easy because you're almost able to explain yourself better. That was much easy. It was a career shift. It was a, it was an explanation. Post that, I had a short break, and, That was a bit harder. You know, it's almost like we're still stuck in that world where people just work, work, work, work, work, and nobody understands a break. But I, I, I think that when, you know, when you spend enough time introspecting and co-creating the life you want, you attract the circumstances that sort of, of fit into what you expect of life. So although it was a little harder, it was still easy enough to join. And because I'd had a break, I came back with a clear mind. I, I had the energy to take this on. So it was very, very exciting. What I found with my last sabbatical, I joined the workforce and I, I feel like I, I was so nervous. I wasn't sure, was I done with my grieving? I, I didn't understand that grieving might be a lifetime experience, you know. I was looking for some end date to it. But joining the workforce helped me find that balance between Keeping busy and appreciating what's just happened, through COVID. That was probably a little harder, you know, just, because there was a lot of talking about it. Oh, what were you doing? Why were you on a break? what happened? And so it was talking about it, but in that there was healing as well.


### Passage: Designing each day around meaningful touch points [20:07–22:01, 358 words]

Note (AI): Gives her concrete daily practice for keeping sabbatical lessons alive inside a corporate job.

Petro du Pisani, host [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1207):
> I read somewhere about somebody who took a sabbatical and they tried to, when they got back into work, tried to keep that sabbatical mindset still with them. Because for me, being in the sabbatical, I find, I'm finding that I'm getting curious about things again. My creativity is starting to come alive again, you know, I'm not a, I'm not this corporate person, or animal anymore. I'm a, a different type of person now, which is exactly what I wanted to get out of this sabbatical. And I was wondering, how do you keep that sabbatical mindset, the lessons that you've learned from the sabbatical still with you and keep going back to them? Is there a way that you try and keep that mindset?

Fatima Collins, guest [20:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1247):
> So, I try and design my day on, through, through all these various sabbaticals, I identified four or five things that are meaningful for my existence. So in a day, I try and ensure that I have some touch points with those things. Of course, there's days where, as you know, you just, corporate just runs away with you. If I have two or more of those kind of days, I then have to sit and reevaluate my life. So I, I try and make sure that in each day I touch bases with, so for example, my, my morning starts with my morning prayer and a morning meditation. And then I'm Muslim, we pray five times a day. So I, those are my touch points. I need to have some interaction with certain people, and so I make sure I have those, and then there's exercise. So, it's a blend of social, community, family, prayer, and exercise. I, I, I know I'm derailing when I have days where there's only work and, and none of that or very little of that, and then I pull it back. You know, I excuse myself from meetings if it's prayer time. I say I'll be a bit late on a deadline because I have another engagement. So I just pull it back and nobody, nobody's, ever suffered as a result of that, you know.


### Quotes

> "Did I want to be a tourist in those countries, or did I want to be a traveler?"
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=180)

> "understand whose race you're running, stay in your lane, and be clear about what expectations you want from this period."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=241)

> "money is in fact an energy, and, and you attract it or you repel it,"
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=377)

> "I needed to be very clear that I am not my job, I am not a job."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=392)

> "being versus doing, collecting memories versus collecting things."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=430)

> "I'm sort of seeing my break as a gap year for grown-ups,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=443)

> "So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [11:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=689)

> "Fortune favors the brave, as they say. So you just need to just do it, and everything will fall in place."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=705)

> "And so now, you know, every bit of work I do is meaningful. It doesn't even feel like work anymore."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [11:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=714)

> "The journey of introspection in itself is lonely. The journey of a sabbatical in itself is lonely."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868)

> "Why is it always about the doing? It's just about the being,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [22:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1369)

> "a lot of what I do is also about teaching people how to be, even in the workspace, to understand that, you, you can do your job and be true to yourself. And I think The more we have that in our workspaces, the more harmony we'll bring into our workspaces, because we'll be chasing less and, be more present."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [24:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1444)

> "friends, like until recently, but ex- what is it that you do? What exactly is it that you do at this company on- at work? And that for me was a win, because if people close to me didn't exactly know what I did, it meant that they weren't attached to what I do."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · [25:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1505)


### Claims

> "When I went through a particularly brutal corporate restructure in 2014, I decided that would be my last restructure. I didn't quite know how I was going to leave, but over the next ten years, that intent became a reality, and I am now on a conscious break from work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [00:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=2)

> "so I'm Fatima Collins. I currently work as the regional head for women in mining at a mining company. This is my fourth career change,"
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [00:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=58)

> "and I remember the first break I took was sort of '98, '99, just at the very, very beginning of my career. I just started off as a microbiologist. I was working in a laboratory in, in Johannesburg, and, and then I decided I wanted to travel, and South Africa, and UK had that two-year working visa option."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=95)

> "And it was nerve wracking because, universities were offering me positions for my masters and my honors degrees and companies were approaching me for long-term work. And, and people said, you know, you can take holidays, you can work and take holidays, but you don't need to take time off and go traveling. it, your, your career will suffer."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [02:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=143)

> "But I think what was key for me is to understand whose race you're running, stay in your lane, and be clear about what expectations you want from this period."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=239)

> "post that, I, I came back into the world of work, I had some clarity, and then I took another sabbatical in 2008, and that was to study full-time. And I would not have gotten there if I didn't understand who I am, what I want, where I'd like to position my life."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [04:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=249)

> "And then later in life, I, I took another about a six-month sabbatical trying to understand what sort of work I'd like to do. I found that the broader area, but I just needed to spend time understanding what does meaningful work mean to me."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [04:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=266)

> "And the last time I took a sabbatical was for unfortunate reasons, COVID-19 pandemic, I lost many people close to me. And so I just needed a time to grieve. I, I wasn't sure that I could offer the world of work anything when I was so broken."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Grief and recovery · [04:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=281)

> "I, I suppose I didn't plan for the internal turmoil from time to time. You know, because I was so deeply introspective, introspection's not easy, and I probably didn't think about that."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [05:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=353)

> "I also, over the time, learned to reevaluate and redevelop a relationship with money, because in my initial years, I believed money came from a job, whereas money is in fact an energy, and, and you attract it or you repel it,"
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [06:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=365)

> "A lot of people associate their purpose and their identity with what they do, and I needed to be very clear that I am not my job, I am not a job. So understanding that dynamic for myself and defining myself separate from the work that I do."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Identity separate from job · [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=387)

> "I think it's quite different taking a gap year or a time off when you're younger, although I think you totally should do it, when you're younger, because then you've got the energy to climb up the mountains and do everything you want to do, versus taking a, a break when you're a bit older."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=447)

> "I often use the Maslow's hierarchy of needs to describe where I am in life now, because, you know, at the bottom of the pyramid is your basic needs, your food, your shelter, your protection, et cetera, et cetera. And as you come to the peak of that pyramid, it's self-actualization."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [08:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=497)

> "I couldn't take a break when I was in my early career. There was just no way to do it. so directly from school to university to work, and then you've got all these expectations from others, you know, on how you should be succeeding and what you should be doing and how you're climbing the corporate ladder and all of that."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=535)

> "So everybody in the Indian community became a lawyer, a doctor, a teacher, an accountant, or an engineer, and, or an entrepreneur. Except, except for that, we weren't really exposed to different careers."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [10:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=609)

> "I, I, I went back to university, studied part-time, moved to Bombay, worked in corporate banking for a while there. Still wasn't what I thought it would give me. Then I took the sabbatical and I studied full-time for one year. I did my MBA at UCT and things shifted for me."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=645)

> "I think that sabbatical was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because post that, I went into the development sector and I've done various things in development, so, socioeconomic development, local economic development, and I found work incredibly meaningful."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=661)

> "It was like I came back to myself and I had a, a good twenty years ahead of me in terms of work, of my work life, twenty, thirty years ahead of me. So that one year gave me job satisfaction for the rest of my working career."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Finding meaningful work · [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=679)

> "So I'm also, together with a, with my career, I'm also a yoga practitioner. I, I studied, Hatha yoga, and I teach from time to time. But I started the meditation, introspective journey about twenty odd years ago,"
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [12:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=737)

> "because introspection and, and, and this journey to self-actualization is not linear. You know, it sort of goes up and down, and, and sometimes you feel like you're getting nowhere, but working with somebody helps you stay your course and helps you realign for those days that you, you falter."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [13:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=791)

> "because I've had a tremendous benefit from working with a series of coaches, you know, some from early career through to into executive and you, they see things that you can't see, you know, and they also help you to not believe your own stories you're telling yourself"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=826)

> "The journey of introspection in itself is lonely. The journey of a sabbatical in itself is lonely. Pre-COVID especially, you wake up, you go to an office, you are surrounded by colleagues. Now when you take a sabbatical, that, that immediately falls away."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [14:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=868)

> "And for most of it, the beauty came in those moments when I wasn't actually backpacking. You know, it was in the moments I met people that, that changed my life forever. It was in those moments where I was given a book that changed my perspective forever."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=958)

> "It taught me self-reliance, because you're now in a foreign country on your own. it, it taught me empathy. It, it accelerated my EQ."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Introspection and self-discovery · [16:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=982)

> "In nature, nature retreats for it to recover. While it looks like it's, it's winter outside, all the little buds are starting to grow anyway. And it was just such a beautiful analogy, for sometimes people need to winter as well."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Grief and recovery · [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1032)

> "Coming back to the workforce after taking a sabbatical from, from, for studying is always easy because you're almost able to explain yourself better. That was much easy. It was a career shift."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Re-entering the workforce · [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1116)

> "Post that, I had a short break, and, That was a bit harder. You know, it's almost like we're still stuck in that world where people just work, work, work, work, work, and nobody understands a break."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Re-entering the workforce · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1129)

> "I, I didn't understand that grieving might be a lifetime experience, you know. I was looking for some end date to it. But joining the workforce helped me find that balance between Keeping busy and appreciating what's just happened, through COVID."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Grief and recovery · [19:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1176)

> "through, through all these various sabbaticals, I identified four or five things that are meaningful for my existence. So in a day, I try and ensure that I have some touch points with those things. Of course, there's days where, as you know, you just, corporate just runs away with you. If I have two or more of those kind of days, I then have to sit and reevaluate my life."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [20:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1250)

> "So, it's a blend of social, community, family, prayer, and exercise. I, I, I know I'm derailing when I have days where there's only work and, and none of that or very little of that, and then I pull it back."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1293)

> "You know, I excuse myself from meetings if it's prayer time. I say I'll be a bit late on a deadline because I have another engagement. So I just pull it back and nobody, nobody's, ever suffered as a result of that, you know."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1308)

> "And I think with remote working, that, that is such a pleasure because you don't need to be in one place, to do the work you love and also have a kind of sabbatical mindset because you're not stuck in an office."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Keeping a sabbatical mindset · [23:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1399)

> "I've got so much to do where I am right now, but a lot of what I do is also about teaching people how to be, even in the workspace, to understand that, you, you can do your job and be true to yourself."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Identity separate from job · [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1440)

> "And that for me was a win, because if people close to me didn't exactly know what I did, it meant that they weren't attached to what I do."
> — Fatima Collins, guest · topic: Identity separate from job · [25:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1512)

> "my plan was to be off for a year, to give myself permission to not do any employer type work for a year, and to fill up the year with things that I've always wanted to do and things I'm curious about,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [25:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1534)

> "because people get so caught up in the busyness of life and climbing and the whole rat race, you know, the getting, and, and when you're in it, you can't actually see that you're trapped in it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Taking conscious career breaks · [26:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1467204_high.mp3#t=1587)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Rediscovering balance between meaningful work and personal fulfilment. Episode 1 of a series of podcasts on taking conscious breaks from the rat-race. Fatima Collins, Women in Mining Project Manager (Sibanye-Stillwater), shares her experiences of taking four different breaks throughout her career for different reasons, including travel, self-discovery, studying, and grieving. She emphasises the importance of introspection, finding meaningful work, and maintaining a balance between work and personal fulfilment. The conversation explores the motivations, challenges, and benefits of taking breaks, as well as strategies for reintegrating into the workforce afterwards. Key takeaways include the value of self-reflection, the pursuit of purpose, and the ability to design a life aligned with one's values. More about Petro du Pisani and On Change here · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #026 Thoughts on Innovation in the Mining Industry | Elaine Hattingh & Sandiso Sibisi

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/026-thoughts-on-innovation-in-the-mining/
- Date: 2024-01-14 (as at 2024-01-14)
- Guest: Elaine Hattingh, Sandiso Sibisi
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Why mining needs innovation, First versus second mover, Choosing technologies to invest in, Prototyping and proof of value, Data, AI and IoT, Robotics and remote operations, Open innovation and collaboration, Corporate venturing and startups
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1395923
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3

### About the guest: Elaine Hattingh

- manager of innovation · Exxaro Resources
- Academic background in geology and mining engineering; experience in the mining, agricultural, water and energy sectors, with responsibilities from operational through to strategic and some corporate venturing roles.

In their own words:

> "I'm the manager of innovation within a mining company, and my academic background is predominantly within the mining industry, so, geology and, and mining engineering." [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=70)

> "I spent some time in the mining sector as well as in the agricultural, water, and, and energy sectors, and my responsibilities range from, you know, operational through to strategic and a little bit of corporate venturing types of roles." [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=82)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### About the guest: Sandiso Sibisi

- startup founder · COOi Studios
- Background in IT; joined Accenture for about nine years; now runs his own innovation studio that helps companies deliver innovative solutions and build MVPs, like an incubator for large corporates.

In their own words:

> "I have a background in IT, that's my discipline in my studies, and thereafter, I joined Accenture for about nine years, and then today I'm running my own innovation studio, so what we do there is that we help companies deliver innovative solutions." [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=101)

> "We take them through a whole discover, describe, design, and also just build MVPs for them, and so that's pretty much my role. So think of me as an incubator, but for large corporates." [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=116)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Elaine Hattingh, an innovation manager in mining, and Sandiso Sibisi, who runs an innovation studio after nine years at Accenture. They discuss whether mining needs innovation, whether miners should lead or follow, how to choose and prototype technologies, which technologies (AI, IoT, robotics, remote operations, Wi-Fi, augmented reality) matter most, and how open innovation, startups and corporate venturing can work. Elaine brings a push-versus-pull decision approach and her team's open innovation experience; Sandiso brings a startup-studio view on prototyping, data consolidation and supporting small partners.

**Key ideas**

- Elaine distinguishes invention (creating something new) from innovation (applying and building on existing technology), and says mining is good at the latter. ([03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=226) [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=232) [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=264))
- Elaine names five reasons miners innovate: efficiency, productivity, sustainability, safety and expansion. ([03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=217) [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=341))
- Sandiso prefers second-mover advantage as cheaper and safer; Elaine says it depends on geography, commodity and company resources. ([07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=445) [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=494) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=544) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=606))
- Elaine proposes deciding technology investment by first asking whether it is an operational pull or a strategic push. ([11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=708) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=793) [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=809))
- Sandiso argues corporates should solve the highest-value problems and prove value with small prototypes, because innovation has been discredited by failures. ([14:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=888) [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=899) [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=972) [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1005))
- Sandiso says the winners with AI and IoT will be those that consolidate fragmented data into decisions. ([19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1149) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1172) [20:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1205))
- Elaine finds open innovation works best for cross-industry challenges, with industry associations better for mining-specific technical problems. ([24:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1458) [24:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1459) [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1508) [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1543) [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1577))
- Sandiso points to slow procurement and small startup teams as barriers, and suggests corporate venturing as a response. ([26:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1610) [27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1667) [28:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1707))

**Push or pull technology decision approach (Elaine Hattingh)** ([11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=708) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=793) [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=809))

1. Establish whether the need is an operational pull or a strategic push.
2. For a pull, use a business improvement approach such as Lean Six Sigma and ask whether it is worth doing.
3. Do a proper root cause analysis so you are solving the right problem.
4. For a push, take a foresight approach: where is the industry going and how can we prepare and act.

**Lessons**

- Sandiso advises proving value at small scale through prototypes before scaling, so a failed experiment does not alarm anyone. ([14:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=888) [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=972))
- Elaine suggests smaller miners in sunset commodities follow rather than invent, while well-resourced miners can afford blue-sky work. ([10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=606) [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=631))
- Petro argues new technology needs operational readiness work and a deployment team including current process people. ([30:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1803) [30:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1816))
- Elaine recommends matching the collaboration channel to the problem: industry associations for mining-specific issues, open challenges for cross-industry ones. ([25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1508) [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1543))
- Sandiso wants innovation products tied directly to organisational strategy so their value can be proven at Exco level. ([39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2355) [39:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2378))

**Who it's for:** Innovation, technology and business improvement people in mining companies, and startups or studios wanting to sell into or partner with miners, especially those deciding what to prototype, how to run open innovation, and how to deploy new technology on site.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Sandiso worked at Accenture for about nine years before running his own innovation studio. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=101))
- Elaine says collision avoidance systems on mining mobile equipment were developed by the aerospace industry. ([04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=264))
- Petro says the hydrogen haul truck work supports building a green hydrogen valley in South Africa's Mokopane region. ([14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=866))
- Elaine gives robots walking a twenty kilometre conveyor belt for inspections as an example of automating mundane tasks. ([21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1274))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Does the mining industry actually need to innovate?**
A: Sandiso says a mine can run without technology but innovation is a must to be competitive, efficient and grow. Elaine agrees, citing efficiency, productivity, sustainability, safety and expansion. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=180) [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=209) [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=341))

**Q: What's the difference between invention and innovation?**
A: Elaine says invention creates something completely new, while innovation is the practical application of technology and building on it, such as mining's use of GPS and aerospace collision avoidance. ([03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=232) [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=264))

**Q: Should mining companies be first movers with new technology?**
A: Sandiso favours second-mover advantage as cheaper and safer. Elaine says it depends: large miners of future minerals in Australia can invent, while sunset-commodity miners should follow. ([07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=445) [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=544) [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=606))

**Q: How should a mining company decide which technology to invest in?**
A: Elaine says first decide whether it is a pull or a push; for pulls use business improvement and root cause analysis, for pushes use foresight. Sandiso adds to focus on problems that give the most value. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=793) [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=809) [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=899))

**Q: Why do innovation initiatives in big companies get a bad name?**
A: Sandiso says people have been burned by failed initiatives that did not solve the right problem or prototype first, and that corporates are bad at testing at small scale. ([14:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=888) [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=972) [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1005))

**Q: Which technologies will change mining most over the next decades?**
A: Sandiso names AI and IoT, with data consolidation as the challenge; Elaine adds robotics and remote operations; Petro adds Wi-Fi everywhere and augmented reality for maintenance. ([19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1149) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1172) [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1274) [21:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1317) [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1370) [23:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1418))

**Q: Does open innovation work for mining companies?**
A: Elaine says yes within constraints: use industry associations and research institutions for mining-specific problems, and open challenges for cross-industry ones, which produced solutions she could not have found by searching. ([24:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1458) [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1508) [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1543) [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1577))

**Q: What gets in the way of working with startups in mining?**
A: Sandiso cites slow procurement that outlasts business priorities and startups too small to deploy at scale, and suggests corporate venturing by investing in startups that address business problems. ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1667) [28:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1707))


### Passage: Invention versus innovation and five reasons to innovate [03:37–06:17, 475 words]

Note (AI): Elaine defines innovation against invention, gives mining examples of borrowed technology, and lists her five reasons mining companies deploy innovations.

Elaine Hattingh, guest [03:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=217):
> Yeah, so I agree with Sandiso. The short answer is yes. But I also think it's important just to clarify what we mean with the word innovation, because I find that a lot of times we use the word invention and innovation interchangeably, and they're definitely not synonyms, right? So invention is a creation of something completely new. So that's the invention of electricity, light bulbs, the telephone. But innovation is about the practical application of this technology and then building on that technology to leverage all its potential benefits. So if we use the telephone as an example, it's the advent of the mobile phone and then smartphones, you know, leveraging that technology. So if you use that definition of innovation within the mining industry, we are definitely good at leveraging technologies. So I don't want to go too far back, but if you think of GPS, right, how we leveraged that technology, collision avoidance systems, so that was developed by the aerospace industry, and now it's deployed on all of our mobile Equipment, robotics. So, spot the robot dogs, there's the robot dog. there's a lot of, companies that use these robotics types of technologies, you know, to, to do their routine type inspections. And then ChatGPT, OpenAI, those types of technologies, I, I read an article, I think last week or, or maybe the week before, where Cecil was saying about how they're planning on integrating and leveraging these technologies, and that's, that's innovation, right? And then in terms of should we be innovative, I completely, agree with, with Sandiso. If we mind the way we did fifty years ago, right? Yes, we could, but we won't be as profitable, right? I don't think anyone would say, yes, sign me up for a two percent, you know, return on a high-risk business, you know? So there's these pressures, and, and there's, there's five reasons why we need to stay innovative and, and to stay ahead of this, this technology curve. And, I would say these are my five reasons that I've kind of put together, you know, based on my, my experience. It's not something that I read in an article or, The please don't go Google search, a B C thesis on this. so the, the first one is, efficiency, and the second one is productivity, right? So it's efficiency and, and productivity. then it's sustainability, safety, and the last one is expansion, right? So those are the five main reasons that mining companies, do or, or deploy, innovations. and expansion, this can be new business models, or it can be new, you know, new, new ore deposits, or, you know, there's, there's a wide range of, of this. So, you know, to answer your question, can we, can mining industry, be innovative? Yes. and then should they be? Most definitely.


### Passage: When to lead and when to follow [09:04–10:56, 338 words]

Note (AI): Elaine argues geography, commodity and company size determine whether a miner should invent or be a fast follower.

Elaine Hattingh, guest [09:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=544):
> Yeah, so I think the answer is it, it depends, right? because if you refer to mining, mining is not this big unit, right? It, it depends on which geography, in which commodity you're mining, which mining house is, you, you, you're working for. so if, if you look at, let's say, from a ge- geography point of view, Australia is known as the, as the leader in mining technology, right? So if you wanna, want innovation within the mining industry, Australia is, is the place to go. Then, like commodities, so lithium and the rare earth element type, commodity miners are, are often known to be more innovative just because, you know, it's minerals of the future and it's, more difficult to, to, to extract, so it needs more innovation and, and, and, technology. The three most innovative mining companies is BHP, Rio Tinto, and, and Volle, and Anglo American is, I know, they're on the top, top five, but they go- concurrently also the three largest, right? So they're the most innovative because they've got Resources to put behind this, these innovations. So if you are, mining a mineral of the future in Australia for one of the large mining houses, yes, be innovative, invent things, right? You've got the resources, you've got the, the backing. If you're mining a commodity in one of the sunset industries in a country, may, be outside of Australia, rather, you know, be a forced follower. so, and, and also to, to Sandiso, to, to, to your point, just because you, you can, don't, doesn't mean you should. So I'm not saying that the large miners in Australia should not, you know, look at, you know, learn from their mistakes, from, from others. I'm just, saying that they have the luxury, to be able to be more innovative and, and, you know, more blue sky thinking, better to, to what, what you were asking than what some of the, you know, sunset industry, you know, commodity miners, might, might be.


### Passage: Push versus pull in choosing technology [11:48–14:02, 402 words]

Note (AI): Elaine sets out a decision approach separating operational pull from strategic push, with the hydrogen haul truck as an example.

Elaine Hattingh, guest [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=708):
> So when it comes to what type of, of technology to invest in and, and to investigate, I think it, it also depends on, whether it's a, a pull or a push, right? So if it's, a, a need for the operations, right, let's, you know, if effectiveness, optimization, the, the business improvement approach is definitely the, the best way to go. You know, the, the Lean Six Sigma or, or any, you know, one of those type, types of, of processes. and then identifying, you know, all the technologies in this space that can adequately address this challenge opportunity, and, and if there's not looking at adjacent industries, and then, you know, following that, that whole, that whole process. but if it's a, a strategic push, right, so, in the mining industry, we're trying to be more, more, s-s-s-sustainable, we're trying to be more safety conscious, and, and then from a strategic point of view, we'll have a, a, a, a view of where technology is going. and I hate Using this, ChatGPT AI thing again, because I think it's, it's just a hype at this stage, but I think it, it just, you know, serves as a, as a good example. so we see the, the tech industry and, and, the, the, the digital space is going that, that direction. So how can we leverage that to address our, or to support our, strategic objectives? And I think that's, that's how the, the decision, sh-should be made. You know, it, if it, it should first be established, is the push or a pull? If it's a, if it's a, a pull, is it, you know, Afrikaans is saying is, is it worth doing, you know? and then, that you do a proper root cause analysis, always solving the right problem. And if it's a push, you know, is it, the, the, the foresight approach. So where is the industry going? You know, what is quantum computing gonna mean for, for mining and how can we prepare and, and, and act on that? And the, the hydrogen vehicle that, that you spoke about earlier, Petro, I think is a very good example because, It's, it's a, a strategic, objective of, of, of the company to be, you know, to reduce the carbon, carbon, footprint. There wasn't available technology, so it's that push. So let us as a company, let's do this.


### Passage: Solve the right problem and prototype small [14:48–17:36, 615 words]

Note (AI): Sandiso explains why innovation has been discredited in corporates and argues for value focus, small-scale proofs of concept and broad buy-in.

Sandiso Sibisi, guest [14:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=888):
> Yeah. So, I mean, for me, I think, and a little bit about Elaine said, I think it's important that we, I, there's, there's many problems to be solved for, right? There's like a lot of them. And I think it's quite important that we understand that which ones are the ones that will give us the most value if they're solved for. And I think that should probably be your, your, your starting point. I mean, that also just goes, marries to the, the overall business strategy where you go in as an organization. But I think it's quite pivotal that you be solving for the right things. I mean, the stuff that's going to give us the most value. I think many companies are living in a time of uncertainty, a time of, cost pressure, a time of just markets declines, inflation, et cetera. So I think we do need to be more careful about where we're spending our money on. And I think it's, it's, it's best to probably understand where to, you know, plant your seed, you know, as opposed to doing multiple things, but rather focus on the one, two things that are going to give you the Most value. And I think the second thing is that when we do try innovative solutions, it's quite important that we go through a prototype phase. So, and Petro just mentioned that now. I think a lot of companies, when you speak innovation, they're like, maybe not, you know, because there've been so many failed initiatives, right? But if, if, if, if the initiative maybe followed a, a, a, a process of purposely prototyping, the cost implications are, are, you know, not as drastic as going on full scale. I think as corporates, we, we've been, and I come from corporate, so I can say this, we're actually quite bad at just doing stuff in small scale, testing and seeing if there's value, then deciding if we can actually scale something. So I think if we're going to be deciding on what to innovate on, let's have a proof of concept, let's prove the value at a really minute, minute scale that even if the balance sheet, if you see that line of that failed, that, of that failed innovation, like no one is like panicking about it, because the, the problem we have as innovators and design thinkers and, you know, People that are trying to help organizations become innovative, we actually can't use the word innovation because people just think it's a luxury thing anymore. And that's because people have been burned so many times. And it's like, but if you go back to why they were burned, probably is that thing of, you know, not solving for the right problem, not prototyping, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that there, there, there needs to be a process. And I often find that c-companies that necessarily have a, a process, usually sometimes the CEO is, is dreams of this amazing thing. And then it's like, team, execute this. They're going to get value out of it. It doesn't actually work like that. In fact, I think CEOs are probably the least innovative people, actually. So really, I think that the magic is actually in the millennials and the younger generation to actually innovate. And I'm not saying that people that are older generation are not innovative, you know, by no means. But I'm just saying that there's an, there's really an opportunity to get your organization to buy into this thing by bringing them on the journey and helping them, helping you decide what to put your money on.


### Passage: Where open innovation works and where it does not [24:18–26:48, 402 words]

Note (AI): Elaine shares her team's experience: industry associations for mining-specific problems, open challenges for cross-industry ones, with unexpected solutions.

Elaine Hattingh, guest [24:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1458):
> So, I love open innovation and, you know, the, the ecosystem approach to, to innovation, because I think companies are naive to think that they have the smartest, most creative, most innovative people working for them, right? There's, a world full of people with, you know, the, the, the required skills just, just to, to add to the, the current body of knowledge that that organization has. And there would be no way of, of knowing, you know, what, technologies or, or what thoughts can, can stimulate, you know, new innovations within your industry if it not through the open innovation, approach. but to, to your point, some, there, there are I, I, I want to say specific areas in which it works and, and in which it doesn't. So, we have tried it, and the, the, the one area or, or the, the biggest learning is if it's very mining, technical, technically specific, it's better to approach the industry associations. So if, if you're looking for that collaborative type of, type of, approach to, to problem solving or, or to, to innovation, within this, you know, heavy technical, mining specific type, areas, the industry associations are, are, are very good for that. And then the, the research institutions. So, you know, the CSIRO, the universities, those, those types of, of, of, institutions. But if you're looking for cross-industry, types of challenges, so everyone wants to be more energy efficient. Everyone wants to be more sustainable. You know, it, it's not a mining specific challenge. There I found that Open Innovation works very well. There's, a few challenges that, that, that we've run that, because it's such a unilateral challenge, the, the interest and the, the number of individuals and people and companies that, pitch potential solutions was, was incredible. It was, it was overwhelming. And, the, the results we got was s-s-stuff that, that you couldn't Google, right? I, I wouldn't even have think, you know, I wouldn't even have thought to Google this type of technology for this challenge that we put out there. But, you know, someone through the Open Innovation, approach just came and suggested this, and it made complete sense, and, and, and we, we, we, we tested it, because we test innovation before we deploy it, and it, it, it works brilliantly. So, yes, it definitely works, but within, you know, as I say, certain, constraints.


### Passage: Procurement delays, small startups and corporate venturing [26:50–29:23, 536 words]

Note (AI): Sandiso names the practical barriers to open innovation and proposes corporate venturing to help startups scale inside mines.

Sandiso Sibisi, guest [26:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1610):
> I mean, I think open innovation works, in, in, in, in most cases, and I think you need to be selective, like Elaine has alluded. But I just want to talk about maybe the constraints that we have around it. I think most enterprises, and maybe you've gone through this, Elaine, where you've, you've thought of you had a problem, and then you put out a challenge, and then the, the procurement process took so long that by the time you actually landed, it was no longer a business focus. You know, the people had forgotten about, it was something bigger to go for, like load shedding, right? So, it's, it's, it's, it's, I think that, that does dampen the hearts of the, the innovation manager internally as well, and it also dampens the hearts of the startup as well. They just think like, oh, these corporates just want to waste our time, et cetera, et cetera. So I think there's, there's something to be said about just how, how we land things quickly when they're like hot, let's land them, let's get the success story out there, and then let's move on to the next issue. I think the sec, second thing is around, I mean, many, many startups are not built to Operate in large, you know, organizational structures. So you'd have like a three, five-man team. And then when it comes to like deploy, you're like, yo, you want us to deploy this thing? How? They're like only three of us, right? And one is doing R&D. In any case, and one is a CEO and there's like one tech person. So it's kind of like challenging for just like small businesses to actually scale up. And I think there's an opportunity to, to support them. And I'm not sure what that would look like. But one of the things that I think corporate needs to think about as well, I think this is quite a strategic and also very lucrative approach is really around financial corporate venturing. I think there's, there's something to be double-clicked on, you know, investing capital and buying equity in small startups that speak to your business problems and then growing with them. I mean, it's, and it's an unattractive thing, obviously, because it's not your core business, but I do think that there's an opportunity to maybe partner with other people. But I think if we were to get more corporate ventures out there, then we're able to build capacity on the startup from a funding capital investment perspective and help them actually become successful. Because if, if this solution, innovative products, is successful in the mine, people will then start buying into this innovation thing, and they'll be like, okay, let me give this innovation manager my ear because she's done something great in processing. Let me try something in, you know, health and safety. So I think it's important that we support the process as well and not just, let people, you know, be at their own accord and then watch them fail. Like, yeah, Told you we were going to fail. So yeah, I'd like to see more of that, creative collaboration, coming through.


### Quotes

> "So think of me as an incubator, but for large corporates."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · [02:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=123)

> "a lot of times we use the word invention and innovation interchangeably, and they're definitely not synonyms, right?"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=226)

> "I don't think anyone would say, yes, sign me up for a two percent, you know, return on a high-risk business, you know?"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=314)

> "I love the innovation field because nothing is ever a failure, right?"
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=509)

> "just because you, you can, don't, doesn't mean you should."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=631)

> "In fact, I think CEOs are probably the least innovative people, actually."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · [17:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1035)

> "the, the other one is remote operations. That's also another thing that, I know the, the first, you know, completely remotely, operated mine was back in, I just want to say, the 2010s, subway."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [21:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1291)

> "the first thing to solve is just to get Wi-Fi everywhere."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1351)

> "companies are naive to think that they have the smartest, most creative, most innovative people working for them, right?"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1465)

> "a book that I really enjoyed, I'm not allowed, if I'm, I don't know if I'm allowed to say, say that on, on a podcast, but, non-bullshit innovation. I promise that's a book's title."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [31:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1913)

> "I actually saw a LinkedIn post saying that it shouldn't be called soft skills, it should be called the real skill."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [33:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2001)

> "all we, all we need is problems because then, then we'll be sorted, yeah."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · [38:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2293)

> "the future of innovation is, is collaborative,"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · [38:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2335)

> "I do want to see less CEO pet projects."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · [39:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2378)

> "cause if, if they're happy, we ultimately become happy as well."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · [40:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2447)


### Claims

> "I'm the manager of innovation within a mining company, and my academic background is predominantly within the mining industry, so, geology and, and mining engineering."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=70)

> "I spent some time in the mining sector as well as in the agricultural, water, and, and energy sectors, and my responsibilities range from, you know, operational through to strategic and a little bit of corporate venturing types of roles."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=82)

> "I have a background in IT, that's my discipline in my studies, and thereafter, I joined Accenture for about nine years, and then today I'm running my own innovation studio, so what we do there is that we help companies deliver innovative solutions."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=101)

> "We take them through a whole discover, describe, design, and also just build MVPs for them, and so that's pretty much my role. So think of me as an incubator, but for large corporates."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Guest background · [01:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=116)

> "So technically you could run a mine without any technology innovation, but I think what we're trying to do with innovation and technology is really become more efficient and more effective in how we actually take the minerals out of the ground."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Why mining needs innovation · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=180)

> "So I think in short, I think if you want to be competitive, if you want to grow, if you want to be effective and efficient, I think innovation is a must."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Why mining needs innovation · [03:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=209)

> "So invention is a creation of something completely new. So that's the invention of electricity, light bulbs, the telephone. But innovation is about the practical application of this technology and then building on that technology to leverage all its potential benefits."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Why mining needs innovation · [03:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=232)

> "So I don't want to go too far back, but if you think of GPS, right, how we leveraged that technology, collision avoidance systems, so that was developed by the aerospace industry, and now it's deployed on all of our mobile Equipment, robotics."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Why mining needs innovation · [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=264)

> "so the, the first one is, efficiency, and the second one is productivity, right? So it's efficiency and, and productivity. then it's sustainability, safety, and the last one is expansion, right? So those are the five main reasons that mining companies, do or, or deploy, innovations."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Why mining needs innovation · [05:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=341)

> "If you think about the hydrogen track, they, none of the, the equipment manufacturers were willing to take that risk. So it had to be, it had to be done by the company itself."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: First versus second mover · [06:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=392)

> "I actually love second mover advantage because I think it's cheaper and it's safer, and you let the other guy take the risk."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: First versus second mover · [07:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=445)

> "enterprises are not built to be like startups who come up with the idea. They're basically Supposed to be adopters of a specific technology, and so I would rather hand it over to a, a smaller player to take the first move advantage, make the necessary mistakes, and then you just pick up from that, and then you build on that."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: First versus second mover · [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=494)

> "Australia is known as the, as the leader in mining technology, right? So if you wanna, want innovation within the mining industry, Australia is, is the place to go."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: First versus second mover · [09:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=564)

> "So if you are, mining a mineral of the future in Australia for one of the large mining houses, yes, be innovative, invent things, right? You've got the resources, you've got the, the backing. If you're mining a commodity in one of the sunset industries in a country, may, be outside of Australia, rather, you know, be a forced follower."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: First versus second mover · [10:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=606)

> "looking at where your constraints in your processes, if you take a business improvement approach, and then using that to prioritize what, where you might want to put your technology first might be an option, you know, using a Lean Six Sigma approach and going, where's my constraints?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Choosing technologies to invest in · [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=681)

> "You know, it, if it, it should first be established, is the push or a pull? If it's a, if it's a, a pull, is it, you know, Afrikaans is saying is, is it worth doing, you know? and then, that you do a proper root cause analysis, always solving the right problem."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Choosing technologies to invest in · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=793)

> "And if it's a push, you know, is it, the, the, the foresight approach. So where is the industry going? You know, what is quantum computing gonna mean for, for mining and how can we prepare and, and, and act on that?"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Choosing technologies to invest in · [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=809)

> "You win that you are putting zero emissions, absolutely nothing into the, into the, the, the, the atmosphere. and that also supports, building a green hydrogen valley in South Africa, in the Mokopane region."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Choosing technologies to invest in · [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=866)

> "And I think it's quite important that we understand that which ones are the ones that will give us the most value if they're solved for. And I think that should probably be your, your, your starting point."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Choosing technologies to invest in · [14:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=899)

> "I think as corporates, we, we've been, and I come from corporate, so I can say this, we're actually quite bad at just doing stuff in small scale, testing and seeing if there's value, then deciding if we can actually scale something."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Prototyping and proof of value · [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=972)

> "we actually can't use the word innovation because people just think it's a luxury thing anymore. And that's because people have been burned so many times."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Prototyping and proof of value · [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1005)

> "In fact, I think CEOs are probably the least innovative people, actually. So really, I think that the magic is actually in the millennials and the younger generation to actually innovate."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Prototyping and proof of value · [17:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1035)

> "if you look at any big mining companies set of values, innovation Will be one of them, okay? It will be in their innovation, okay? And then you go, okay, how innovative is this company, and how do you bring innovation to life for each and every person who's actually working in that company?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why mining needs innovation · [17:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1058)

> "So I think AI definitely, and I think AI is probably moving out of the brackets of emerging technologies to be more like mainstream in any case. I think the second one is IoT."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Data, AI and IoT · [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1149)

> "I think the winner in this race is the one that's going to be able to actually consolidate that data and make meaningful decisions out of it."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Data, AI and IoT · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1172)

> "I think that there's been enough spent on technologies. I think right now, I think we need to look for more of an aggregation or a consolidation approach to actually get the most value out of these solutions."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Data, AI and IoT · [20:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1205)

> "So it's these mundane tasks of, you know, walking the conveyor, a twenty kilometer conveyor belt to make sure that, you know, there's no spots burning, you know, all the rollers are working, and that can be easily done, you know, through, by, by, by, robots."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Robotics and remote operations · [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1274)

> "having, you know, removing people from dangerous situations, removing them from working, underground, removing them, you know, from, from working next to high, high, high, high walls with the potential, you know, of, of, of, of failures, that's all, you know, it speaks into the strategic direction,"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Robotics and remote operations · [21:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1317)

> "So that for me is the first challenge, is how do we get Wi-Fi everywhere to the furthest away mines, stopes, and, and faces, to be able to get that, that data, to be able to make quick decisions around safety and productivity."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Data, AI and IoT · [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1370)

> "Anything to do with that sort of virtual reality and augmented reality, I think it will, it will change the way in which people do maintenance, at the end of the day."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Data, AI and IoT · [23:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1418)

> "I love open innovation and, you know, the, the ecosystem approach to, to innovation, because I think companies are naive to think that they have the smartest, most creative, most innovative people working for them, right?"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [24:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1459)

> "the biggest learning is if it's very mining, technical, technically specific, it's better to approach the industry associations."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [25:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1508)

> "But if you're looking for cross-industry, types of challenges, so everyone wants to be more energy efficient. Everyone wants to be more sustainable. You know, it, it's not a mining specific challenge. There I found that Open Innovation works very well."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1543)

> "And, the, the results we got was s-s-stuff that, that you couldn't Google, right? I, I wouldn't even have think, you know, I wouldn't even have thought to Google this type of technology for this challenge that we put out there."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1577)

> "where you've, you've thought of you had a problem, and then you put out a challenge, and then the, the procurement process took so long that by the time you actually landed, it was no longer a business focus."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1626)

> "many, many startups are not built to Operate in large, you know, organizational structures. So you'd have like a three, five-man team."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Corporate venturing and startups · [27:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1667)

> "I think there's, there's something to be double-clicked on, you know, investing capital and buying equity in small startups that speak to your business problems and then growing with them."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Corporate venturing and startups · [28:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1707)

> "And I don't think we do enough around operational readiness and understanding what the impact of that technology is going to be on the rest, rest of the process."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [30:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1803)

> "you need people who are currently In the process to be part of that deployment team, as well as the people who've developed it, and to work together to make it actually work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [30:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1816)

> "Because as a mining organization, obviously for competitive advantage purposes, you can't divulge too much information, right? And then, you know, so it's this, this awkward, you know, who do you learn from if no one wants to share, right?"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Prototyping and proof of value · [31:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1861)

> "But the principles of, you know, failing, fast testing small, those principles, can be, you know, pulled through to, to mining type, innovations. So books like the, the, the Lean Startup and, and those types of books is books that, you know, my team and I have, have read and, and worked through"
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Prototyping and proof of value · [31:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=1889)

> "I do think that innovation is going to be much cheaper going forward. I think there's enough tools that are being built that are helping people become their own developers."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Data, AI and IoT · [37:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2260)

> "the future of innovation is, is collaborative, and I think that, that sort of boils down to. It's about, working together, seeing what's out in the ecosystem, whether it's from startups, individuals, other mining companies, other industry associations."
> — Elaine Hattingh, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [38:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2335)

> "I think for me, I wanted to see more of a direct link from the organizational strategy to the actual innovation products that we develop. I think in some cases it gets a bit fuzzy and it's not quite clear, and I think the issue with that is that you're going to struggle to prove your value if you're not speaking to what's being said at Exco level."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Choosing technologies to invest in · [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2355)

> "So I think I want, I would want to see, you know, us embracing non-traditional partners because I think there's lots of value to be added."
> — Sandiso Sibisi, guest · topic: Open innovation and collaboration · [40:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1395923_high.mp3#t=2427)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Three innovators talk about their experiences in mining innovation. In this episode, host Petro du Pisani speaks to Elaine Hattingh (Exxaro Resources) and Sandiso Sibisi (COOi Studios) about innovation and technology in the mining industry. This conversation follows on from a panel discussion at the 2023 Mining Indaba in Cape Town which explored models on how to deploy innovation in the mining industry. Key topics covered in this podcast include whether and why the mining industry needs innovation given its long history, how to decide which technologies to invest in, the potential of open innovation collaborations, and views on the most promising and exciting future technologies like AI, IoT, robotics, and remote operations. Elaine mentions that the main reasons for innovation in the mining industry are usually to improve efficiency, productivity, sustainability, safety, and business expansion. The discussion emphasizes the need for collaboration between companies, startups, research institutions, and local communities in developing and deploying new solutions. Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #025 Unleashing my superpowers | Patience Mpofu

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/025-unleashing-my-superpowers/
- Date: 2022-08-29 (as at 2022-08-29)
- Guest: Patience Mpofu
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Women in mining, Career journey in mining, Leadership and self-knowledge, Sponsorship and male champions, ESG and impact, Unleashing my Superpowers book
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1220971
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3

### About the guest: Patience Mpofu

- CEO · Peak Performance with Patience and Insights Mining Experts
- Born in Zimbabwe; studied applied chemistry and did a PhD in mineral processing in Australia; worked at Impala Platinum, Anglo American, Lonmin and South32, where she was vice president corporate affairs; wrote Unleashing my Superpowers, a No. 1 International best seller.

In their own words:

> "I actually studied applied chemistry. I worked for a chemical ind- chemical company called Hext, that time I think now it's called BASF." [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=77)

> "I then did a BSc in Applied Science, and thereafter I then did a PhD in Mineral Processing in Australia. I got a scholarship when I was working for Impala," [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=118)

> "So when I came back, I was sponsored by Anglo American. So I had to come back and work for Anglo American for two years. But guess what? I stayed for ten years. So I was employed as a project metallurgist." [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390)

> "I moved into strategy. I was a senior strategy analyst. Now that was a more senior role. We were engaging with the Exco, working on different options, fact-based insights, industry and competitor analysis." [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=587)

> "Then I joined Lonmin and became senior manager business development, at Lonmin. Exciting career. However, we had Marikana, of course, three months when I joined, but there are always lessons." [10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650)

> "I was headhunted by South32, and my last role was, vice president corporate affairs at South32." [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=682)

> "So I used to do pro bono at this business school for about five years, as a leadership coach. So we used to coach the MBA students, and I really enjoyed it." [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=744)

> "the third part was then the book, Unleashing my Superpowers, which I published last year in August, and fortunately I became number one bestseller on Amazon, on different categories," [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani interviews Dr Patience Mpofu, a former vice president corporate affairs at South32, about her path from applied chemistry in Zimbabwe and South Africa to a PhD in Australia and senior roles at Anglo American, Lonmin and South32. Mpofu describes the challenges she faced as a woman and single mother in a male-dominated industry. She explains how the IWF fellowship led to her survey of women, a 100-day interview campaign and her bestselling book, Unleashing my Superpowers. She sets out her advice on self-knowledge, cheerleaders and sponsorship, and discusses ESG and her drive for impact.

**Key ideas**

- Mpofu says mining chose her rather than the reverse, and that the industry offers both opportunity and the downside of being male-dominated. ([03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238) [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238) [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=280))
- She argues organisations must be structured so young women can be mothers at home and still deliver at work. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=378) [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=481) [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=519))
- Mpofu holds that careers are not straight lines and that leadership is tested in a crisis. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059) [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1096) [18:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1099) [18:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1130))
- Her first step to unleashing superpowers is knowing yourself, for example through a 360 review and ikigai. ([19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184) [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1746))
- She stresses having a cheerleader, a coach and a buddy, illustrated by being stuck on a pole during a retreat challenge. ([20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1306) [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361))
- Mpofu challenges male leaders in mining to sponsor women, noting her view that males mostly sponsor other males. ([23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1382) [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1413) [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430) [26:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1611))
- She says her highest value is impact, which links her ESG, sustainability and corporate affairs work. ([24:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1485) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1527) [26:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1578))

**Unleashing my Superpowers** ([19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361) [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1382) [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430))

1. Know yourself: your strengths, what challenges you, your values and biases; use a 360 review and ikigai.
2. Find your cheerleaders: a coach or mentor, and a buddy who encourages you when you face challenges.
3. Seek and become sponsors and champions, especially male leaders sponsoring women and standing against discrimination.
4. Step out of your comfort zone and use your voice to be the change you want to see.

**Lessons**

- Mpofu advises women in STEM in mining to get their hands dirty in operations. ([07:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=424) [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=431))
- She says that according to her survey grit alone does not get you to C-suite; relationships matter. ([28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1682))
- Mpofu suggests doing a 360 review to know yourself, even though the first one can be painful. ([19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184))
- She advises having both a coach and a buddy to encourage you through self-doubt. ([22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361) [22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1363))
- She notes that following your passion must be balanced against paying the bills. ([29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1746) [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1760))

**Who it's for:** Women in or considering STEM and mining careers, male leaders in mining who want to sponsor women, and anyone interested in leadership, ESG and navigating a male-dominated workplace.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Her PhD scholarship was funded by ten mining companies to solve tailings re-treatment problems. ([02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=145))
- She was sponsored to work for Anglo American for two years but stayed for ten. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390))
- She joined Lonmin about three months before Marikana. ([10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650))
- She was a pro bono leadership coach at a business school for about five years. ([12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=744))
- Her survey covered more than 150 to 200 women, about sixty percent in mining. ([14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=878))
- Unleashing my Superpowers was published in August and became a number one bestseller on Amazon. ([16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986))
- The host says she has over 25 years of senior leadership mining experience and over 10 peer-reviewed publications. ([00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=21))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Patience Mpofu get into the mining industry?**
A: She says mining chose her: she worked for a chemical company supplying mining, then Impala Platinum, then won a scholarship funded by ten mining companies to do a PhD in mineral processing in Australia. ([01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=77) [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=118) [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=145) [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238))

**Q: What roles did Patience Mpofu hold in mining?**
A: Project metallurgist at Anglo American, where she stayed ten years, then strategy roles, senior manager business development at Lonmin, and finally vice president corporate affairs at South32. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390) [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=587) [10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650) [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=682))

**Q: What is the book Unleashing my Superpowers about?**
A: It helps women navigate and succeed in male-dominated mining. It grew from an IWF legacy project including a survey of women and a 100-day interview campaign, and became an Amazon number one bestseller. ([14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=857) [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=878) [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=927) [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986))

**Q: How can I unleash my superpowers as a leader?**
A: Mpofu says first know yourself, using a 360 and ikigai; then find cheerleaders such as a coach and buddy; and seek sponsors and champions. ([17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059) [19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233) [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361))

**Q: Why does Patience Mpofu say women need sponsors in mining?**
A: She says studies show males mostly sponsor other males, and calls on leaders to become sponsors and champions for women and for diversity, equity and inclusion. ([23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1382) [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1413) [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430))

**Q: What did the IWF fellowship give her?**
A: She says the females-only programme felt psychologically safe, a sisterhood where women can be vulnerable and themselves, and it gave her confidence to write the book. ([13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=793))

**Q: Is grit enough to reach C-suite?**
A: Mpofu says her survey found you do not need only grit to get to C-suite; you need relationships. ([28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1682))

**Q: Why is Patience Mpofu excited about the mining industry's future?**
A: She says climate change is making people realise the importance of critical minerals like lithium, and that mining impacts daily life. ([31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1904))


### Passage: From PhD to Anglo American and single motherhood [06:18–08:50, 459 words]

Note (AI): Shows her early mining career path and how being a single mother shaped her role choices, raising the question of inclusive organisations.

Patience Mpofu, guest [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=378):
> So when I got my scholarship, went to Australia, studied my PhD. I did it for three and a half years. I published on how to recycle more water, as I mentioned, for particularly clay minerals. So when I came back, I was sponsored by Anglo American. So I had to come back and work for Anglo American for two years. But guess what? I stayed for ten years. So I was employed as a project metallurgist. I used to travel to all the operations, you know, Amanda Belt, Union Operations. I used to go there, wear the overalls. Sometimes that looked much bigger on the, on, on the waist. But that's the thing about the mining industry. It presents you with all those challenges, right? I learned quite a lot. I built a lot of relationships with people in the operations. And one of the things that I actually learned, and what I always coach most of the women in mining, is as a woman in STEM in mining, you need to get your hands dirty. And that's one of the things that I actually learned as I was going in the operations. I spent almost three years as a project metallurgist. Then I moved to Anglo American Research when the, when the merger actually happened, because before I was at Anglo Research, Anglo Research. Then Anglo American and Anglo Platinum Research merged. I was now looking after some of the operations in Chile, in Brazil, across all the Anglo American operations, doing benchmarking work on water optimization. So I spent another two and a half years, then I moved to the head office at Anglo Platinum. Why did I move into, head office, Anglo Platinum? It's all about the challenges that we face as young women. I had a son. It was very difficult for me to travel and leave my son. I didn't have, I'm a single mom. I didn't have anyone else to look after my son, and I had to make a decision. I remember one day I saw an advert that was looking for a planning analyst. And in my mind, I already know I want to look for a role that will help me to integrate my personal life and my work, which means I can have enough time to come home to my son and hug him and not rely on other people to take care of my son. So these are some of the things that we talk about, the challenges as a young woman in mining. The question is, how are organizations now structured to be more inclusive for young women, right? To allow them to still be mothers at home and still be able to deliver at work.


### Passage: The three-part IWF legacy project behind the book [14:17–17:17, 503 words]

Note (AI): Explains how the survey, the 100-day interview campaign and the book fit together, and how she measures the book's impact.

Patience Mpofu, guest [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=857):
> So I reflected on my journey and I said, you know what? As a strategist, there are three things that I want to do. Number one, I want to do a survey. I'm a researcher at heart. So the first part of the legacy project, which is part of the IWF Fellows Program, I did a research. I interviewed, well, not interviewed, I did a research survey of more than 150, 200 women. Mostly sixty percent were in mining. We were asking them questions. What made you succeed? What are the challenges that you're facing? Because I always believe in also data, because somebody's going to challenge you to say, why are you saying this in your book? Did you do anything? And as a researcher, I needed to then get data, and that's what I did. Through social media, connected with people, got a huge network, and it was really successful. People volunteered, and they provided. So we did it through Monkey Survey, and the results are available on my website, UnleashingMySuperPowers.com. Then the second part, we asked the question, I then wanted to do interviews, because I thought, I can put my leadership story, but I want to understand other women who have succeeded. Let me do a 100-day campaign. Let me interview women who have succeeded, people like Deshni Naidu, Raksha Naidu. So I invited a lot of women and I said, can you participate in this interview, 100-day campaign? I interviewed the women over a period of about three to four months across the globe, and mostly it was women in STEM, but I also included women leaders like Professor Shelley Zhen. I interviewed her because I wanted to get a perspective of leaders who are at C-suite board level to understand what does it really take to succeed in a male-dominated work environment to break the glass ceiling. It was phenomenal. The interview is available on YouTube. It was phenomenal because a lot of women, they kept asking me, oh my God, this is amazing. Oh my God. Because the interviews, like what you're doing right now, it will stay. The key messages are there. So we did that, and then the third part was then the book, Unleashing my Superpowers, which I published last year in August, and fortunately I became number one bestseller on Amazon, on different categories, but it's not just about being number one bestseller. It's about the message that you hear from the people who have read the book. For me, that is impact. That made me feel I have achieved what I wanted to achieve. When you hear women say, I read your book, I feel myself in this story. I wish I had this book. It's like a manual. I don't leave this book with me. This one lady will say to me, Patience, my daughter, I'm keeping this book for my daughter. This is an important book for my daughter. If she wants to pursue STEM, this is the book.


### Passage: Why the book is called Unleashing my Superpowers [17:39–19:12, 274 words]

Note (AI): Sets out her view that careers are not straight lines and that leadership is tested in crisis.

Patience Mpofu, guest [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1059):
> So I wrote the book. I used to journal. I mean, as a leader, you want to reflect and you want to journal. So I used to do that. I used to reflect and journal. So I took all the journals that I had, you know, put it together. And all of a sudden I asked myself, what is the title of the book? I don't even have the title of the book. Then I came with Unleashing my Superpowers. You know why? Because in each and every part of my story, there was an up and a down, an up and a down, an up and a down, but it was an upward moment. And what does it tell you? It tells you that life It's not a straight line. A career is not a straight line. You will face challenges. You will face adversity. It's about how you rise as a leader. How do you rise? It's much easier when you're rising, but when you fall, how do you rise again to become the leader that you're called to be? That's Unleashing my Superpowers. You need something extra to get you to that level. And this is where leadership is tested. What type of a leader are you in a crisis when everything's all fine? Everybody can be a good leader. But when there is a crisis, what type of a leader are you? Are you a compassionate leader? Are you a leader who stands and leads people? Are you a caring leader? Do you make decisions in crisis? And that is the reason why I call my book Unleashing my Superpowers.


### Passage: The pole climb: needing a cheerleader and coach [20:33–22:52, 398 words]

Note (AI): A personal story illustrating why a coach and a buddy matter when self-doubt and fear set in.

Patience Mpofu, guest [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233):
> Number two, as you rise, who is your cheerleader? Who is your cheerleader? Who is in your network? Who is that person who is going to help you to rise, right? Because you may be very good at what you do, but sometimes you may self-doubt yourself. As I said, there are challenges. And I'll give you an example. One day I went for a, a retreat, and I was climbing this pole, a Large pole, which is the size of a, of a plate, right? It was a challenge, Tony Robbins challenge. And I was, as I was rising, people were cheering me, oh, peak performance with patience, peak performance with patience. Everybody was cheering. They were so excited. There were about 60 people. We divided into two. So it was a challenge to challenge you to get out of your comfort zone, right? And as I was climbing, as I was reaching the top, I got stuck. I was stuck. I couldn't stand. The whole idea was to climb this 60 meter pole. When you get to the top, you stand, you grab a trapeze, and that shows that you have achieved. I couldn't do it. I think I was stuck for almost 15 minutes. Pedro, it was, it was embarrassing. I think people were thinking, what is this African woman doing up there? Because I was the only last one who was there. I was the last one to actually do the challenge. But anyway, the peak performance with patience, people were shouting, peak performance with patience. But when I was stuck, there was no one shouting, cheering me. Only two people, my coach, Dan, and Hayley. She was my buddy. Big performance with Patience. Patience, you can do this. You can do this. You're amazing. And Dan, Patience listened to me. This is what you can do. But I had fear when I was at the top. I was so scared. I wasn't even listening to him. The moment the fear disappeared and I listened to Dan, the coach, I could stand. But all of a sudden, everybody started cheering me. Big performance with Patience, right? So this is what I talk about. You need a Hayley and a Dan. A Dan is a coach. Do you have a coach? Do you have a mentor? Who's going to encourage you when you face challenges?


### Passage: Challenge to male leaders on sponsorship [23:02–24:29, 240 words]

Note (AI): Her direct call for the mining industry's male leaders to sponsor and champion women and to stand against discrimination.

Patience Mpofu, guest [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1382):
> In life, we don't live in isolation. We live with people. And even in organization, do you have buddies? Do you have supporters? Do you have sponsors? Do you have champions? We often overlook having champions. And the question for me, especially for mining industry, male leaders, who is your champion? Whom are you championing? Whom are you mentoring? Whom are you sponsoring? And I think in my book, I talk about sponsorship. How do we level the ground? Because studies have shown that males, they mostly sponsor other males. How about females? When they go for drinks, they sponsor the males. How about females? And I think that's the challenge for me that I'm giving to the mining industry. How do we unleash the superpowers of females? Become a sponsor to a female. Become a champion for female. Become a champion for diversity, equity, inclusion, right? Be the leader. That stands on your own. That's why I have this on my hardcover. You're standing here on your own. You're saying, you know what? I am standing against discrimination. I'm standing against sexual harassment, and this is what I stand for. We need those kind of leaders. That's Unleashing my Superpowers. You need to unleash something extra to be the change you want to see in the world. It's about getting out of your comfort zone, using your voice to be the change you want to see in the world.


### Passage: Impact as highest value and ESG passion [24:45–27:23, 474 words]

Note (AI): Connects her motivation, her ESG work across her career and her decision to speak openly in the book.

Patience Mpofu, guest [24:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1485):
> You know, when I get up in the morning and I feel I've transformed certain people's lives, for me, that's my highest value. When we did a value system when I was at NCR to say, what are your values? I realized my highest value is impact. And that is why the role of sustainability, the role of ESG, the role of communities, the role of impact, right? The role of corporate affairs when I was VP corporate affairs, I, I used to ask myself, why did I love this role? It is because my highest value is impact. When I know I have impacted somebody's life positively, that's what makes me get up in the morning. When I get up and I know I am making a difference, be it in an organization, I always found that I wasn't driven so much about financial return. I never used to negotiate too much on salary, right? But whenever I felt that my leader unleashing my superpowers, I'll do more because I'll be stretched. And when I felt that I'm impacting in an organization, it's not work for me. So for me, impacting and seeing that I'm making a difference in an organization. That's what gets me up in the morning. And I think we talk about ESG. I'm really passionate about ESG, environmental, social governance. I was already doing part of the ESG. I was already advancing ESG, PhD. It was environmental. I was solving sustainability issues. Social, when I was vice president corporate affairs, sustainability was my baby. That's what I used to do, working with communities, helping them. A shared value concept is one of the things that we need to really start thinking about as an industry. And of course, governance. You cannot succeed in a, as an organization. Repetition or risk, what do you do? Human rights, that's so important. So that gets me up in the morning, knowing that I'm impacting, knowing that I'm living life to my fullest, but most importantly, knowing that I've used my voice, you having the courage to use my voice. There hasn't been anyone who has been so honest in this book. And be vulnerable in my book and calling out to say, you know what? We don't want boys club. We want male champions. Not many people have done this, and I'm proud that I've done it because I thought to myself, if not me, then who? If not now, then when? Somebody has to do it. I remember one lady said to me, Patience, you know what? You're so courageous. You wrote a book about mining. It's an industry that not many people write about. And I said, you know what? If not me, then who? If not now, then when? And I did it, and I'm glad I did it.


### Quotes

> "Mining chose me, Petro. I didn't deliberately go out to look for the mining industry."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238)

> "as a woman in STEM in mining, you need to get your hands dirty."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [07:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=431)

> "I remember the first day when they asked us this question, what are you going to do to honor someone's dream? That stayed with me. What am I going to do to honor someone's dream?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=822)

> "A career is not a straight line. You will face challenges. You will face adversity. It's about how you rise as a leader."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [18:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1099)

> "Everybody can be a good leader. But when there is a crisis, what type of a leader are you?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [18:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1135)

> "You need a Hayley and a Dan. A Dan is a coach."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [22:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1363)

> "when I felt that I'm impacting in an organization, it's not work for me."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1543)

> "We don't want boys club. We want male champions."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1616)

> "if not me, then who? If not now, then when? Somebody has to do it."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1624)

> "I'm excited about my next step, which potentially will be, maybe going back into corporate. Maybe in the mining industry, underground, who knows?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [32:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1933)

> "Women have superpowers, and it is time we unleash them."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [33:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1996)

> "you strike a woman, you strike a rock, let us all shine our light and help others shine theirs."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · [33:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=2005)


### Claims

> "She has over 25 years of senior leadership mining experience and has authored and published over 10 international peer-reviewed journals on sustainability in the mining industry."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career journey in mining · [00:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=21)

> "I actually studied applied chemistry. I worked for a chemical ind- chemical company called Hext, that time I think now it's called BASF."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=77)

> "I then did a BSc in Applied Science, and thereafter I then did a PhD in Mineral Processing in Australia. I got a scholarship when I was working for Impala,"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [01:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=118)

> "This scholarship was, funded by ten mining companies. It was supposed to be a project, I was supposed to work on a project to solve tailings re-treatment problems."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [02:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=145)

> "Mining chose me, Petro. I didn't deliberately go out to look for the mining industry. The opportunity that I got was from the mining industry, as I mentioned before."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=238)

> "It's an industry that you can have a love-hate relationship. Love it for the amazing opportunity, the big packages. I mean, it well pays. The amazing challenges that you get working in a male-dominated industry. But it also has the downside. It's male-dominated in nature."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=280)

> "It's a challenging industry, it's got lots of opportunities, and I want to encourage every young girl to choose that industry."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=359)

> "So when I came back, I was sponsored by Anglo American. So I had to come back and work for Anglo American for two years. But guess what? I stayed for ten years. So I was employed as a project metallurgist."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=390)

> "And one of the things that I actually learned, and what I always coach most of the women in mining, is as a woman in STEM in mining, you need to get your hands dirty."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [07:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=424)

> "I had a son. It was very difficult for me to travel and leave my son. I didn't have, I'm a single mom. I didn't have anyone else to look after my son, and I had to make a decision."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=481)

> "The question is, how are organizations now structured to be more inclusive for young women, right? To allow them to still be mothers at home and still be able to deliver at work."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=519)

> "For the first time, We had a female CEO, Cynthia Carroll, for Anglo American. Everything just changed. The safety culture. When we talk about role models for women, for me, that was the most important epiphany moment for me, to say we can have a woman to be a leader in a male-dominated industry."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [09:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=554)

> "I moved into strategy. I was a senior strategy analyst. Now that was a more senior role. We were engaging with the Exco, working on different options, fact-based insights, industry and competitor analysis."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [09:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=587)

> "I wanted to be able to do majors and acquisition in mining, because I realized if I have not done any deals, would I actually be able to lead in a mining company? Would I get to a C-suite position?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [10:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=633)

> "Then I joined Lonmin and became senior manager business development, at Lonmin. Exciting career. However, we had Marikana, of course, three months when I joined, but there are always lessons."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [10:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=650)

> "I was headhunted by South32, and my last role was, vice president corporate affairs at South32."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [11:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=682)

> "So I used to do pro bono at this business school for about five years, as a leadership coach. So we used to coach the MBA students, and I really enjoyed it."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [12:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=744)

> "It's females only, yeah? You feel psychologically safe. Number two, you know, is sisters. That's sisterhood, where you can share, where you can become vulnerable, and you can be yourself."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Women in mining · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=793)

> "I did a research survey of more than 150, 200 women. Mostly sixty percent were in mining. We were asking them questions. What made you succeed? What are the challenges that you're facing?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Unleashing my Superpowers book · [14:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=878)

> "Let me do a 100-day campaign. Let me interview women who have succeeded, people like Deshni Naidu, Raksha Naidu."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Unleashing my Superpowers book · [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=927)

> "the third part was then the book, Unleashing my Superpowers, which I published last year in August, and fortunately I became number one bestseller on Amazon, on different categories,"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Unleashing my Superpowers book · [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=986)

> "It tells you that life It's not a straight line. A career is not a straight line. You will face challenges. You will face adversity. It's about how you rise as a leader."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1096)

> "What type of a leader are you in a crisis when everything's all fine? Everybody can be a good leader. But when there is a crisis, what type of a leader are you?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [18:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1130)

> "as a leader, number one, you need to know yourself. You need to know yourself. You need to know your strengths. You need to know what challenges you. If you don't know yourself, somebody can tell you who you are."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [19:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1164)

> "You need to do a 360. I'm sure you know the 360, especially in organizations. I mean, personally, the first time I hit my 360, Petro, it was painful,"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [19:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1184)

> "Number two, as you rise, who is your cheerleader? Who is your cheerleader? Who is in your network? Who is that person who is going to help you to rise, right?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1233)

> "I think I was stuck for almost 15 minutes. Pedro, it was, it was embarrassing. I think people were thinking, what is this African woman doing up there?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1306)

> "So this is what I talk about. You need a Hayley and a Dan. A Dan is a coach. Do you have a coach? Do you have a mentor? Who's going to encourage you when you face challenges?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [22:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1361)

> "Because studies have shown that males, they mostly sponsor other males. How about females? When they go for drinks, they sponsor the males."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [23:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1413)

> "Become a sponsor to a female. Become a champion for female. Become a champion for diversity, equity, inclusion, right?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [23:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1430)

> "I realized my highest value is impact. And that is why the role of sustainability, the role of ESG, the role of communities, the role of impact, right?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1499)

> "I always found that I wasn't driven so much about financial return. I never used to negotiate too much on salary, right?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1527)

> "A shared value concept is one of the things that we need to really start thinking about as an industry."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [26:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1578)

> "And be vulnerable in my book and calling out to say, you know what? We don't want boys club. We want male champions."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [26:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1611)

> "But you don't need only grit, because we did a survey to say, do you need grit to get to C-suite? No, you don't. You now need relationships."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1682)

> "The Ikigai is about what are you good at? What are you passionate about? What does the world need? And what gives you the financial returns?"
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Leadership and self-knowledge · [29:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1746)

> "Like with me right now, I followed my passion. Does it pay the bills? Not necessarily. That's why I'll be going back to corporate. I still need to pay the bills."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Career journey in mining · [29:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1760)

> "I'm excited about the industry, the mining industry, because now people are realizing when you talk about climate change, the importance of the critical minerals that we need."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: ESG and impact · [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1904)

> "I am today where I am because there were male champions, there were females that held my hand, and I want to honor those people, and I'm doing the same to hold other women."
> — Patience Mpofu, guest · topic: Sponsorship and male champions · [32:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220971_high.mp3#t=1960)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A lesson on how to navigate in a male-dominated mining work environment. In this episode, Petro du Pisani speaks to Dr. Patience Mpofu, who is a multi-award winner as one of the most influential women in Mining, and a former Vice President of an Australian listed company. She is a global mining sustainability thought leader (ESG) an IWF fellow alumni, executive leadership coach, and STEM advocate. In this episode Dr. Mpofu gives an overview of her personal history, a story of grit and determination... and how she ended up writing her No. 1 International best seller "Unleashing my Superpowers," which teaches women how to navigate and succeed in a male-dominated mining work environment. Find Dr. Patience Mpofu here · Peak Performance with Patience · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #024 A study on Open Banking | Karen Nadasen

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/024-a-study-on-open-banking/
- Date: 2022-08-29 (as at 2022-08-29)
- Guest: Karen Nadasen
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Open banking, EMBA learning journey, Design science research, South African payment system, Financial inclusion, Consumer data consent
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1220969
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3

### About the guest: Karen Nadasen

- CEO · PayU · South Africa
- Worked in technology for most of her life, including about nine years abroad. Became CEO of PayU when it was a startup. Her background is product and technology. Researched open banking for her UCT GSB EMBA.

In their own words:

> "So I'm the CEO of PayU South Africa. I have been in technology, I would say, for most of my life. I worked abroad for about nine years, and now I'm back in South Africa for ten years." [00:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=30)

> "I became the, the CEO of PayU at a very young age. I would say we were, we were both young because I was young, and PayU was also a, a startup when, when I took over," [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=41)

> "My background is product and technology, so this is something that I'm passionate about, and that PayU is a global company in fifty-five markets, so I have access to people and I have access to knowledge." [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=363)

> "Personally, I also had been on a project about seven, eight years ago, with the various banks on open APIs. It didn't land, but so these were all the pieces of, of knowledge that, you know, were, were coming together." [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=412)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani speaks with fellow UCT GSB EMBA student Karen Nadasen, CEO of PayU South Africa, about her research project, an open banking relevance and assessment model. Karen explains the design science method she used and gives her definition of open banking. She reports which of 23 market-condition drivers had evidence of support internationally and in South Africa. She sets out recommendations for South Africa, including a digital identity management system and simpler consumer consent. She closes by reflecting on persistence and on financial exclusion as a failure of the payment system.

**Key ideas**

- Karen defines open banking as a system promoting fairness, competition and innovation through secure, consent-based sharing of bank-held data with authorised third parties via open APIs. ([16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=994) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=995) [18:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1081))
- Karen argues that open banking emerged from market conditions linked to the global financial crisis, which led to PSD2. ([09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=548) [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=706))
- Karen's model has two parts: 23 drivers to assess whether a market needs open banking, and interventions to change those market conditions. ([12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=732) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=785) [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=808) [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1544))
- Karen found evidence internationally that open banking increased competition and reduced fraud. She found no evidence yet of improved economic conditions or of implementation costs falling over time. ([19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1198) [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1325) [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1406) [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1424))
- Applied to South Africa, Karen found support for 21 of the variables. High consumer trust in banks and resilience to the GFC were the conditions that did not match. ([25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1501) [25:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1515))
- Karen says South Africa needs a digital identity management system, citing India's Aadhaar and UPI as a use case. ([06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=390) [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635) [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635))
- Karen warns that consumer consent becomes burdensome as the number of apps grows. She argues consumers must share responsibility for their data. ([29:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1763) [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1843) [32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1930))

**Open banking relevance and assessment model** ([12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=732) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=785) [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=808) [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1544))

1. Assess a market's relevance for open banking against the 23 drivers, or market conditions, found in the research.
2. Apply interventions found in open banking implementations worldwide to change those market conditions.
3. Apply both parts to a specific market by interviewing national payment stakeholders to produce recommendations.

**Lessons**

- Karen credits self-discipline and following a consistent schedule for completing an EMBA alongside a demanding job and family. ([02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=161))
- Karen advises executives taking on study to pick a topic they are passionate about, because that kept her going. ([35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2156) [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2156))
- Karen argues that countries considering open banking will want evidence that it makes a difference, given its cost and coordination demands. ([15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=920) [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1406))
- Karen sees South Africa's late start as an advantage, because it can learn from earlier implementations. ([26:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1595))
- Karen expected few people to contribute to her research but found strong willingness to share, both globally and in South Africa. ([33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2007) [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2041))

**Who it's for:** Payments, banking and fintech professionals and policymakers interested in open banking, especially in South Africa. Also executives considering an EMBA or research project who want a first-hand account of the workload and the design science method.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Karen says PayU is a global company operating in fifty-five markets. ([06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=363))
- Karen's study identified 23 drivers of open banking and nineteen interventions. ([13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=785) [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1544))
- Karen interviewed thirteen practitioners involved in open banking implementation in global markets. ([09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=573))
- Karen's literature review covered banking from 600 BC to the 2007-2008 global financial crisis. ([09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=548))
- Karen cites one point six billion people who are still unbanked. ([18:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1117))
- Karen found support in South Africa for 21 of the variables. ([25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1501))
- The host says the EMBA involved 18 months of coursework followed by a research project. ([04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=280))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is open banking?**
A: Karen defines it as a system promoting fairness, competition and innovation by securely sharing bank-held individual and business data with authorised third parties, subject to consent, through open APIs. She says it moves away from the oligopolistic nature of banks. ([16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=994) [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=995) [18:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1081))

**Q: Why did open banking come about?**
A: Karen's practitioner interviews pointed to the global financial crisis as a major reason. Market conditions that led to the GFC in turn led to PSD2 and the open banking phenomenon. ([09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=573) [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=706))

**Q: Does open banking actually make a difference?**
A: Karen found evidence of more competition, more third parties, more products, better fees and reduced fraud in India. She found no quantitative evidence yet of improved economic conditions, and implementation costs did not fall over time. ([19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1198) [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1325) [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1406) [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1424))

**Q: Is open banking relevant for South Africa?**
A: Karen found support for 21 of the variables in South Africa. The exceptions were high consumer trust in banks and the market's resilience to the GFC. She recommends moving forward, saying it would help drive financial inclusion. ([25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1501) [25:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1515) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1807))

**Q: What does South Africa still need for open banking to work?**
A: Karen points to a digital identity management system, citing India's Aadhaar and UPI. She also calls for inclusion of fintechs and digital banks, and for centralising functions like fraud management and consumer consent. ([27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635) [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635) [28:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1680))

**Q: Why is consumer consent a challenge in open banking?**
A: Karen explains that consumers may need to consent for many banks per app and re-verify after 90 days. With 30 apps this becomes challenging, so she suggests centralising consent. ([27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635) [29:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1763))

**Q: What research method suits a practical study like this?**
A: Karen used design science, which combines theory with designing an artifact of practical utility. She reviewed literature on banking from 600 BC to the GFC and interviewed thirteen practitioners. ([07:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=457) [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=472) [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=548) [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=573))

**Q: How can a busy executive get through an EMBA?**
A: Karen credits self-discipline, a consistent schedule, mindfulness and a balanced routine. She advises choosing a research topic you are passionate about. ([02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=161) [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2156))


### Passage: Karen's career at PayU and choosing an EMBA [00:30–02:32, 391 words]

Note (AI): Karen describes her career, the demands of the CEO role and the criteria she used to choose an EMBA programme.

Karen Nadasen, guest [00:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=30):
> So I'm the CEO of PayU South Africa. I have been in technology, I would say, for most of my life. I worked abroad for about nine years, and now I'm back in South Africa for ten years. I became the, the CEO of PayU at a very young age. I would say we were, we were both young because I was young, and PayU was also a, a startup when, when I took over, and it, and needed to go, undergo a massive transformation to form part of this, this global company. So I, you know, I was quite aware that I also needed to transform myself, to be successful in this role. the process itself took a lot of self-study, so self-study, coaching, mentorship for the first few years. And I think that for at least two years, I don't think I, I, I had a decent night of sleep. I would say I probably averaged like maybe four hours, five hours if I was lucky. So in 2019, you know, I could, I could finally breathe a bit, and this was really the first time in a long time that I felt comfortable taking some dedicated, study. So this is, this is really where I started to look at, okay, so, you know, what programs were out there, what executive MBA programs were out there that I could, that I could undertake. A few things that were important to me, so I had hosted, a few London business school students, for a couple of years, and so I really started to value programs that had certain accreditation and that were benchmarked and globally recognized. I have very young children, which were even younger at the time. My, my youngest was under a year old when I applied, and, you know, still quite dependent on me and attached. So, so I also wanted something that I didn't, you know, I didn't have to travel excessively for, or be away from home for long periods of time. and then something that was value for money, I'm always conscious about that, and at the time I wasn't quite sure exactly how I would, I would fund this. So, so these are like the basic criteria that narrowed it, it down for me, and I ended up going with the, the GSB.


### Passage: How design science shaped the open banking study [07:37–10:09, 423 words]

Note (AI): Karen sets out her research design: literature review, nascent theory, practitioner interviews and modelling techniques.

Karen Nadasen, guest [07:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=457):
> So any research is focused on the, you know, just the theoretical aspects, and you, you have a list of hypotheses which you're either, either proving or disproving or taking that and applying it to a different area or a different region and so forth. So design science, the difference is that you still have that theoretical aspect, but there, there's a portion that allows you to design an artifact of practical utility. And so I, I wanted to deepen my knowledge, specifically around open banking, I wanted to learn how it came about, more about it, but I also wanted to design something, a practical solution that could be used, particularly in South Africa, to make an assessment, so relevance firstly, and then to make an assessment of, of our own open banking implementation, and could also be used in, in, in other regions. So what I didn't know at the time, I think, is that, you know, this would be quite a protracted study because There was two parts to this. So that was quite difficult to complete in this period of time. I also, I couldn't find a theory to explain open banking, which means I had to develop a nascent theory. And I did this by following something called a retroductive inquiry, which is also something that we didn't learn. So I just, you know, I felt like I lost a lot of time during the process trying to figure out what strategy it was going to employ to get this information, but I finally got there with the help of my supervisor. So I conducted a systematic review of literature about money, the, invention of banking and the evolution of banking from 600 BC up to the 2007-2008 global financial crisis. So that in itself was quite a hefty task. I then employed a critical realist ontology to develop this into explanatory knowledge, so essentially to develop the nascent theory. And conducted interviews with thirteen practitioners who'd been involved in open banking implementation in some capacity in global markets, so that I could link this, this theory, this theory of banking evolution to the open banking phenomena that we were, we were seeing. So I also had to use, I had to use grounded theory, causal loop diagrams, context mechanism outcome diagrams, and context intervention mechanism outcome diagrams in, you know, extracting information so that I could, I could develop some type of theory, and you're familiar with all these concepts because we studied them excessively, but, yeah.


### Passage: The study's main outcomes and two-part model [12:12–14:19, 386 words]

Note (AI): Karen summarises the theory, the relevance-and-intervention model and how she applied it to South Africa.

Karen Nadasen, guest [12:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=732):
> so there were quite a few, there were quite a few, outcomes, but I'll talk about just the main aspects. So the first part is the nascent theory, right? So that's the theoretical contributions to the theory of banking evolution, which was based on money, the establishment of, of a bank from 600 BC all the way to the, to the GFC. And then this gave me a significant amount of insight as to how banking evolved and what, transpired, before and after each change and the role, particularly of regulatory intervention, and also how we got to banking oligopolies of today. And the second part of the study was the artifact that I needed to produce. So I took, I took theory and I took the findings around open banking evolution and why it occurs and open banking implementation around the world, and then I developed it into a model that had two parts, and this is, is the title. So the one part was the drivers of, open banking in markets, and so this had, there were 23 of these drivers, and I'll cover this a little bit later. And this could be used to assess the relevance in a market. So does this market actually need, the banking system to evolve? Essentially, does it need to move towards open banking? So that was the first part. And once you assessed relevance, the second part was a number of interventions that I'd found through the implementation of open banking that could then be, applied to change these market conditions. So essentially, this is how you would evolve the system. So, so then you, yeah, so you ended up with a way to assess relevance and based on the, the assessment, you were then able to assess your country or region's implementation efforts based on where the world was heading. And then the, the third aspect of this was in any design science study, you need to be able to apply this model. So I took both the, the relevance and the intervention aspect, and I, I then applied it to the South African model, and I interviewed, a wide range of national payment stakeholders from fintechs, all the banks, so that I could, apply this model and get some good recommendations for the market.


### Passage: Karen's definition of open banking explained [16:34–19:00, 384 words]

Note (AI): Karen gives a formal definition of open banking and a plain-language explanation for a non-finance listener.

Karen Nadasen, guest [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=994):
> So, it goes, open banking is a system that promotes fairness, competition, and innovation by facilitating the secure exchange of data, and that could be individuals' data and business data, commonly held by banks, with authorized third parties subject to consent. By means of technology innovations, so open APIs, in order to facilitate secure payments, account switching, and other beneficial products and services that may result in cost saving, digitization, financial deepening, and improved financial health of the consumer, and could produce longer-term economic benefits. So it's quite a long, it's quite a long definition. I try to cover all angles, but essentially I wanted it to, you know, to do that. Let me explain it, to you, right? So you have these banking systems, and banks will develop a whole host of products, essentially. and over time, what has actually happened is that the whole banking structure has become quite oligopic, right? So they don't really share much. So you have all these fintechs that have become popular because they're able to innovate and they're more agile than a bank could be. And so you, you sometimes have these bilaterals where banks will open up certain APIs for third parties like fintechs to build applications. So PayU is a payment service provider, and we are essentially a fintech. We provide financial technology to allow payments. So all open banking is, it's saying that it's trying to move away from this oligopic nature of banks and saying that the banks should open their APIs, right? But obviously, it's a risky business, so there needs to be some standards in place so that Third parties, instead of these very specific third parties, numerous third parties can consume these APIs, and by doing that, it will create an environment, that is far more competitive and far more innovative, and will solve problems for consumers that the banks have not been able to solve, because we sit with a big problem right now that we've got one point six billion people that are still unbanked, and the whole point of a payment system, financial system, is, is financial inclusion to facilitate trade. So that's really what it is. It's opening these APIs to a broader base for competition innovation, and some of part of that is de-risking.


### Passage: Digital identity, competition and consent in South Africa [27:15–29:48, 417 words]

Note (AI): Karen gives recommendations for South Africa's open banking journey, including digital identity, inclusion of fintechs and centralising consent.

Karen Nadasen, guest [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635):
> The other thing that was, that really stood out, from looking at the implementations in, in other countries was the need for South Africa to have a digital identity management system. And how this ties to financial inclusion, and specifically a, a really good use case there is looking at, the Indian market, of the Aadhaar system and UPI, and what a fundamental difference that, that has made. And the great news here is that we already have our own projects, the RPP project that kind of borrows ideas from India. The one thing I would say that we, we need to still work on is a, is a digital identity management system. the other aspect here is the importance of competition and working together. So South Africa still has quite an oligopic, structure with regards to banking. However, with the whole PIB changes, this is supposed to change. We are supposed to be a lot more inclusive now and include, the fintechs, the digital banks, and a number of other third parties in the payment system, which is, which is really, really important, for us to move forward successfully. And the last aspect is really technology-focused, and this again I think is borrowing from the learnings of other models on how to do things differently as an open banking system evolves by using blockchain technology, decentralizing certain aspects of the model, and then centralizing, switching for instance, fraud management, and consumer consent, because if you think about this in like, layman's terms, if I am going to be sharing my data, and if I'm going to be asked to share my data, so say I have got an application, and for this application I am requested to share information from nine banks. You know, and then that's just one application, right? So I'm going to consent to these nine banks. And then in, say, that 90 days' time, I have to kind of re-verify that I want to continue to se- to share my information. That's quite simple because it's just one application. But as the system progresses, you might actually have 30 different applications that require you to consent to your data being shared. And so for a consumer, this would become quite challenging over time. So there, there is certainly a lot of thinking that can be borrowed in terms of certain, certain aspects that could be managed differently and centralized for our market. But yeah, in general, it's still early days, for SA.


### Passage: How the research changed Karen's thinking [32:52–35:12, 454 words]

Note (AI): Karen reflects on persistence, the collaboration she met from others and a new view of financial exclusion.

Karen Nadasen, guest [32:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1972):
> Yeah, I mean, this was really an exhausting paper for me. I mean, I just, it kind of stretched me and molded me in, in so many ways that I cannot even explain to you. And I, you know, you obviously went your own journey, so you'll, you'll know what I'm talking about. And I think it's like, there were many times there that I just almost threw in the towel and I was like, why am I doing this? You know? And I think there it's persistence, just really reminding myself of why this was important to me was really, really important and sticking, sticking to that plan and to that journey. I think I was pleasantly surprised. So at the beginning of the paper, I thought, there's nobody that's going to want to contribute or very few people that are going to want to contribute this. And at the end, I was really so surprised on, on two accounts. So firstly, all the, the global information and research, that I'd done, you know, the people that were willing to contribute, that was just incredible. The second is that I had to apply to apply this in South Africa, and so there was, there was quite a bit of, because Africa had not actually made strides in open banking, I felt there might be some reluctance, and initially there was, but here again I was quite pleasantly surprised on people sharing. And so I think this has just given me a very different perspective on, really positively, on that there is an appetite in South Africa to really, really work together, and we might have differences in the way we think, but there's this, this appetite to really work together, to improve, I would say, our system and to improve financial inclusion. The historical going through the history of money, the history of banking, and how this evolved over time coming to open banking, I think just has been an incredible journey for me, and I would, anybody who is in, in payments, in the payments field should undertake that, and I think that this has just given me a greater appreciation for why financial inclusion is so important. In fact, like I now look at it as financial exclusion as being a failure of the, the payment system. So this is essentially, I would say, igniting a passion even more than I'd already had, and making me believe more in it, making me want to do a lot more, and also just creating the sense of just not competing, anymore, which I see, like I see competition as being something that's quite negative, and really, really working together to drive, bigger change.


### Quotes

> "I was quite aware that I also needed to transform myself, to be successful in this role."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [01:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=61)

> "self, self-leadership. So some of the skills that we were, we were, we were taught, that we had to practice. So mind, mindfulness, having a balanced life, so exercise, following routine. I think that helped with my mindset and progress. And towards the end, specifically, you know, around the research project and things started to go a bit south, south. I think that this has made like a significant difference, for me."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=183)

> "Now, I mean, obviously you all know this, that, you know, we went into COVID and lockdown, so unfortunately that changed over time, and I, and I found that, quite challenging, but I think the dedicated group work and how the course was structured prior to COVID, had helped."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=215)

> "PayU is a global company in fifty-five markets, so I have access to people and I have access to knowledge. So I had knowledge around PSD2 and then our own implementation experience of open APIs in Europe."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=367)

> "we've got one point six billion people that are still unbanked, and the whole point of a payment system, financial system, is, is financial inclusion to facilitate trade."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1120)

> "I found support for 21 of those variables that I'd mentioned."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [25:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1503)

> "there were many times there that I just almost threw in the towel and I was like, why am I doing this?"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [33:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1988)

> "there is an appetite in South Africa to really, really work together, and we might have differences in the way we think,"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [34:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2047)

> "I now look at it as financial exclusion as being a failure of the, the payment system."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [34:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2084)

> "I see competition as being something that's quite negative, and really, really working together to drive, bigger change."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2107)

> "just having some time to, to do any dedicated study is really just a luxury."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [35:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2144)

> "Pick something that you are really, really, really passionate about, because that is what allowed me to stick the course."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2156)


### Claims

> "So I'm the CEO of PayU South Africa. I have been in technology, I would say, for most of my life. I worked abroad for about nine years, and now I'm back in South Africa for ten years."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Career background · [00:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=30)

> "I became the, the CEO of PayU at a very young age. I would say we were, we were both young because I was young, and PayU was also a, a startup when, when I took over,"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Career background · [00:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=41)

> "And I think that for at least two years, I don't think I, I, I had a decent night of sleep. I would say I probably averaged like maybe four hours, five hours if I was lucky."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Career background · [01:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=74)

> "A few things that were important to me, so I had hosted, a few London business school students, for a couple of years, and so I really started to value programs that had certain accreditation and that were benchmarked and globally recognized."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [01:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=105)

> "So the most helpful was self-discipline and, consistency. So just consistently, following a schedule for me, I think that that's what allowed me to be successful because I just, I have a very demanding life and I also have a family."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [02:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=161)

> "For me, that worked incredibly well because I, I'm one of those, I'm one of those mental people that talks to myself aloud. About everything. So, you know, that's how I learn."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=247)

> "And by the end of it, we did 18 months of, of, coursework, and then it all culminated in us doing a research project."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: EMBA learning journey · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=280)

> "So I wanted to contribute to something that was, was new, but was still in the sphere of payments. So that's how I ended up choosing open banking."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [05:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=316)

> "My background is product and technology, so this is something that I'm passionate about, and that PayU is a global company in fifty-five markets, so I have access to people and I have access to knowledge."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Career background · [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=363)

> "So there I had knowledge of, ADA, the digital identity system, and UPI, unified payments interface, which, you know, I knew that it had completely transformed, the payment system in India."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=390)

> "Personally, I also had been on a project about seven, eight years ago, with the various banks on open APIs. It didn't land, but so these were all the pieces of, of knowledge that, you know, were, were coming together."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=412)

> "So design science, the difference is that you still have that theoretical aspect, but there, there's a portion that allows you to design an artifact of practical utility."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Design science research · [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=472)

> "So I conducted a systematic review of literature about money, the, invention of banking and the evolution of banking from 600 BC up to the 2007-2008 global financial crisis."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Design science research · [09:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=548)

> "And conducted interviews with thirteen practitioners who'd been involved in open banking implementation in some capacity in global markets, so that I could link this, this theory, this theory of banking evolution to the open banking phenomena that we were, we were seeing."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Design science research · [09:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=573)

> "So one of the major reasons was the GFC. But there were certain market conditions, obviously, that led to the GFC, and that then led to PSD two and, and this whole open banking, phenomena."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [11:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=706)

> "So the one part was the drivers of, open banking in markets, and so this had, there were 23 of these drivers, and I'll cover this a little bit later. And this could be used to assess the relevance in a market."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=785)

> "And once you assessed relevance, the second part was a number of interventions that I'd found through the implementation of open banking that could then be, applied to change these market conditions. So essentially, this is how you would evolve the system."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [13:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=808)

> "I think that if you're trying to sell something to any country, they would really want to know, there's just a lot of effort, there's a lot of cost that goes into it, so much coordination, did it actually make a difference?"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=920)

> "open banking is a system that promotes fairness, competition, and innovation by facilitating the secure exchange of data, and that could be individuals' data and business data, commonly held by banks, with authorized third parties subject to consent."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=995)

> "So all open banking is, it's saying that it's trying to move away from this oligopic nature of banks and saying that the banks should open their APIs, right?"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [18:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1081)

> "because we sit with a big problem right now that we've got one point six billion people that are still unbanked, and the whole point of a payment system, financial system, is, is financial inclusion to facilitate trade."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Financial inclusion · [18:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1117)

> "So level of competition. So I needed to find evidence that, open banking improved the level of com-competition, and this I saw significant evidence there were a larger number, I think, yeah, a larger number of, of third parties that were now included and licensed to participate, with the various banks."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [19:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1198)

> "So the one was that open banking improved economic conditions, and because it was early days, I couldn't find any quantitative data that actually showed or illustrated that it improved economic conditions."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [22:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1325)

> "I didn't find, implementation cost reducing, over time. This was something that was quite important because, it's quite a costly project, I would say. It, it requires a lot of coordination of people, just a lot of resources."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1406)

> "Enhanced fraud management, that was something that I did find there was evidence of centralization, specifically in India where there was a reduction in fraud management, which is really, really important to the payment system."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [23:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1424)

> "And it was really interesting because I found support for 21 of those variables that I'd mentioned."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1501)

> "The, the, the two things that were quite positive in the South African market was that there was still a high degree of consumer trust, so consumers trusted banks in South Africa."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [25:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1515)

> "So these were, when I went through all the open banking implementations around the world, I found nineteen things that were, implemented in these, in the Markets to Change the Conditions of, of the market."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Open banking · [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1544)

> "It was really still very early days, for South Africa, and there was a positive part to this because earlier implementations couldn't benefit from foresight, you know,"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [26:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1595)

> "The other thing that was, that really stood out, from looking at the implementations in, in other countries was the need for South Africa to have a digital identity management system."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [27:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1635)

> "So South Africa still has quite an oligopic, structure with regards to banking. However, with the whole PIB changes, this is supposed to change."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [28:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1680)

> "But as the system progresses, you might actually have 30 different applications that require you to consent to your data being shared. And so for a consumer, this would become quite challenging over time."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Consumer data consent · [29:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1763)

> "I think we're making some really good moves, towards open banking, but there is considerable evidence for support of why it is important to actually move forward in this direction. So I think it's something that would be really beneficial and would help us to drive financial inclusion."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1807)

> "And given our population, I think that there's, there's even more consideration that needs to be given to the security aspects around this."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Consumer data consent · [30:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1843)

> "You know, the people who are, at the moment unbanked aren't necessarily close to big cities. They might be out in rural areas or those sort of things."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Financial inclusion · [31:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1864)

> "because urbanization isn't a massive problem for South Africa. you know, in other countries, it is even, is even bigger. However, we do struggle with education levels, to some degree, literacy levels."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Financial inclusion · [31:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1876)

> "now we're changing this model a little bit to say, actually, there's a number of parties involved here, and we should all be responsible, and one of those parties is the consumer."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Consumer data consent · [32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=1930)

> "So at the beginning of the paper, I thought, there's nobody that's going to want to contribute or very few people that are going to want to contribute this. And at the end, I was really so surprised on, on two accounts."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2007)

> "And so I think this has just given me a very different perspective on, really positively, on that there is an appetite in South Africa to really, really work together,"
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: South African payment system · [34:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2041)

> "In fact, like I now look at it as financial exclusion as being a failure of the, the payment system."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: Financial inclusion · [34:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2083)

> "Pick something that you are really, really, really passionate about, because that is what allowed me to stick the course. It was purposeful, and I was passionate about it and was in my field."
> — Karen Nadasen, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1220969_high.mp3#t=2156)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. I recently completed an Executive MBA through the University of Cape Town's Graduate School of Business. With classes moving on-line (in 2020 and 2021) due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. In this episode, I speak to Karen Nadasen, CEO of PayU. Her research project focused on the relevance of open bank and how to assess whether open banking should be used. Karen patiently explained open banking to me, a non-finance technical person. Her study resulted in her theory of open banking, whether open banking is useful (i.e. would it make a difference if this model is applied) and how this could be applied to the South African banking system. Learn more about the UCT GSB's EMBA programme here � Reach out to Karen Nadasen here � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #023 Harnessing shared leadership to improve strategic coherence | Jordan Ludlow

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/023-harnessing-shared-leadership-to-improve-strategic/
- Date: 2022-07-18 (as at 2022-07-18)
- Guest: Jordan Ludlow
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Shared leadership, Strategic coherence, Social constructs and culture, Human agency and autonomy, Complexity and uncertainty, EMBA research methodology, Strategy practice
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1206229
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3

### About the guest: Jordan Ludlow

- managing director · Tradereach · Durban
- Completed a BSc honors in biochemistry and a postgraduate diploma in business administration at UCT; worked ten years at British American Tobacco in consumer marketing, product development, blending and trade roles; now MD in FMCG logistics.

In their own words:

> "I studied a, a BSc, and I completed a BSc honors in biochemistry a long time ago. I've since gone on to study a postgraduate diploma in business administration at the UCT," [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=71)

> "I started with British American Tobacco, post studies. I've worked in, for them for ten years in consumer marketing, product development, and blending, and various trade roles." [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=85)

> "And I am now working for a retail, specialist retail asset management business operating in the FMCG logistics industry. I'm currently the MD at that business," [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=97)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro interviews fellow UCT EMBA graduate Jordan Ludlow, MD of a specialist retail asset management business in FMCG logistics, about his research on improving strategic coherence. Jordan describes how complexity theory shifted him from seeking a single truth to accepting he need not have all the answers, his two-stage action research with fourteen interviews and constructivist grounded theory, and three findings: shared leadership, the pull of social constructs such as culture and habitus, and human agency. He explains how he applied this by reshaping strategy practice with OKRs and regular meeting rhythms, and urges leaders to surface unwritten organisational rules.

**Key ideas**

- Jordan argues that complex, emergent challenges mean knowledge cannot sit only in the leader's head, which freed him to accept uncertainty and draw on others' perspectives. ([03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=191) [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=226) [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=239) [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=243))
- Drawing on Johan Strumpfer, Jordan describes moving from first-order (design the outcome) to second-order organisation (design the rules), allowing high control through alignment alongside high autonomy. ([08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=481) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504))
- Jordan's research found three antecedents of shared leadership: shared purpose, social support and voice. ([12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=776) [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=812) [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=833))
- Jordan found culture, habitus and power dynamics such as proximity to leaders led people to make decisions they did not think they should make. ([09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=592) [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=776) [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=904) [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=947))
- Jordan says shared, distributed leadership works best where work is interdependent, creative and complex, as strategic work is. ([17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1069) [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1119) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1150))
- Jordan holds that enabling individual agency through meaningful autonomy is crucial for high-performing organisations. ([17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1021) [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1025))
- The host adds that every person shapes culture, and that changing an organisation's story requires first understanding the stories it has told itself. ([24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1482) [24:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1491) [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1734))

**Jordan's reshaped strategy practice** ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1392) [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429))

1. Ensure alignment and access to information.
2. Create a space for debate.
3. Build shared understanding of the context and what the team is going after.
4. Empower individuals to take accountability, with clearly defined outcomes in granular OKRs.
5. Establish consistent quarterly, monthly and weekly strategic meeting rhythms with key stakeholders.

**Lessons**

- Jordan suggests leaders do not need all the answers; people least expected to contribute may add value by seeing the problem through a different lens. ([04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=245) [26:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1567) [26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1580))
- According to Jordan, leaders initiating change should make the unwritten rules and social constructs explicit rather than ignore their power. ([26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1618) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649))
- Jordan reports that moving strategy from ad hoc practice to set rhythms, OKRs and transparent information improved collaboration, ownership and sense of purpose. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429) [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1453))
- Jordan notes response speed to change is hard to achieve under a traditional hierarchical model. ([06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=409))
- The host argues command and control has a place in emergencies, but productive work needs everyone to have a voice. ([21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1308))

**Who it's for:** Managers and executives in operational or hierarchical businesses considering shared leadership, leaders trying to improve strategy execution, and EMBA or business research students interested in action research and constructivist grounded theory.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Jordan worked at British American Tobacco for ten years. ([01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=85))
- Jordan conducted fourteen interviews of about an hour and a half each. ([11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=695))
- Interviewees ranged from people with twenty years' tenure to two years, and saw the same things. ([28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1686))
- Jordan's research used two-stage action research and constructivist grounded theory. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=641) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=728))
- Jordan's research title concerned a theory for improved strategic coherence, exploring leadership practice and the social constructs of culture and habitus. ([07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=448))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is strategic coherence in an organisation?**
A: Jordan describes it as a mutual understanding of an organisation's direction across multiple levels, so people can make the right decisions in their daily work rather than just churning. ([17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1069) [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1150))

**Q: What are the building blocks of shared leadership?**
A: Jordan's research identified three antecedents: shared purpose around collective goals, social support where team members give each other emotional and psychological strength, and voice, meaning input into how the team carries out its purpose. ([13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=812) [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=833))

**Q: When does shared leadership work better than command and control?**
A: Jordan says it tends to have better outcomes where work is highly interdependent, requires creativity and is complex. The host adds that command and control still suits emergencies. ([18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1119) [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1308))

**Q: How can organisational culture hold people back?**
A: Jordan found culture, habitus and proximity to leaders pushed people into decisions they didn't think they should make, limiting their perceived capacity for action. ([15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=904) [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=947) [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1708))

**Q: How do you apply shared leadership to strategy in practice?**
A: Jordan focuses on alignment and access to information, space for debate, shared understanding, accountability via granular OKRs, and consistent quarterly, monthly and weekly meeting rhythms. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345) [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1392) [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429))

**Q: What research method did this EMBA project use?**
A: A mixed methodology: two-stage action research with fourteen interviews of about an hour and a half plus follow-ups with executive leadership, analysed using constructivist grounded theory. ([10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=641) [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=695) [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=728))

**Q: Can you have high control and high autonomy at the same time?**
A: Jordan argues yes, if control takes the form of alignment between parts rather than traditional control, with frameworks that help people understand how and why they make decisions. ([08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504) [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504))

**Q: What should a leader joining a new organisation watch for?**
A: Jordan advises recognising unwritten, embedded rules no one talks about and not negating the power of these social constructs when trying to initiate change. ([26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1618) [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649))


### Passage: From single-truth analyst to comfort with uncertainty [03:11–04:52, 270 words]

Note (AI): Jordan explains how complexity theory changed his view that a leader must hold all answers, the shift that underpins his later research.

Jordan Ludlow, guest [03:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=191):
> I think for me, coming from my traditional science background, I really was very heavily skewed towards an analytical, the pursuit of a single truth and a solutions-driven sort of determinist mindset where I really wanted to Have a high degree of certainty in my decisions. I wanted to be able to analyze data and make one single decision, which was that objective truth and that perfect way forward. And that for me was probably the greatest learning from the MBA journey. It really challenged that like fundamental worldview. Things like complexity theory, you know, really helped me to understand that there are such complex and emergent challenges for today's organizations that the, the knowledge can't simply be in the head of the leader. And that was quite liberating for me, understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers. And what that did for me, it paved the way to firstly be a lot more comfortable with that uncertainty and have a little bit more patience to allow patterns to emerge as I sort of probe things. It also allowed me to really embrace Multiple perspectives and really like leverage the diversity of the people around me and, you know, their own lived experiences and the lenses with which they viewed the same problems that I was seeing. And that really was probably my single biggest learning, really a fundamental change in the way that I viewed the world. You know, the relational elements and the dimension of, of organizations really also resonated strongly with me, and I, I, I really, really enjoyed the course.


### Passage: Why he chose meaningful autonomy as his research topic [05:38–07:23, 279 words]

Note (AI): Sets out the two principles behind the research: emergent organisational challenges and human-populated systems, linked to response speed under hierarchy.

Jordan Ludlow, guest [05:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=338):
> So, you know, since, since my, my first position paper, I've really been fascinated with this sort of idea of Of real meaningful autonomy and how you actually create the conditions for this meaningful autonomy, for people to actually really take accountability for their own decisions. You know, I work in a very operational environment. There's a lot of day-to-day operational noise. And for me, as a leader in that space, It was really around trying to understand how I can allow people to take some of that operational noise out of my day-to-day role so that I can focus on some of my key objectives, and, and really how do I empower them to actually do that. And that really was the starting point. And, and it really started in position paper one, and, and there was a, a very, very close thread through a lot of my position papers. And really it was on, on, on sort of two key principles. It was on, on the complexity, the emergent nature, and the challenges of organizations, and the fact that those organizations have to adapt to challenges that are only seen sometimes in the day-to-day work by employees. and, and often the success of those organizations is determined by the speed between when they detect an, an adjustment or a change, and the response that they take. And that response It's very difficult to get quickly if you are running an old traditional hierarchical model of working. And then the second element really was around the, the human populated systems as organizations, and how complex they are just because of all those worldviews and different ways of viewing.


### Passage: Three findings: shared leadership antecedents and social constructs [12:56–16:08, 464 words]

Note (AI): The core research findings: shared purpose, social support and voice, plus how culture, habitus and proximity to power shaped employees' decisions.

Jordan Ludlow, guest [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=776):
> My major learnings, and, obviously quite difficult to, to condense, this down into, into a short conversation, but there were three key ones for me. The first one was, was around shared leadership. In terms of how do you enable this, this new type of leadership, the shift from a traditional hierarchical, command and control leadership paradigm to this new way of leading in the world. And, and obviously that's Was very much linked to the complexity, the fact that I wanted to try and empower people. So shared leadership really, for me, the three key ways or antecedents to shared leadership, which came out of my research, was how do you create shared purpose? So team members having similar meanings of the team's primary objectives and focusing on collective goals. How do you enable social support where team members provide emotional and psychological strength to one another, which improves the cooperation and a shared sense of responsibility for those outcomes? And then the third one is voice, the degree to which a team's members have input into how the team carries out its purpose. And those three were really, really important, and they came out very, very strongly in the research. The shared leadership is also very much like a relational dimension, and through exercising it, myself as a leader, and we'll talk about it a little bit later, has seen significant improvements in levels of strategic coherence within the organization. So that was the, that was the first learning. The second one was around the social constructs, culture, habitus, power. What I found through the research, and I had some ideas of it coming into the research about how strongly ingrained, the culture of the organization was, but it really, it really came to the fore when I started interviewing people, when they, when there was such a great degree of synergy between the different interviews. People were talking around characteristics like high energy, entrepreneurial, and impulsive culture, a culture of subjective decision-making, a culture dominated by informal and unstructured communication networks, and then very strong power dynamics in what people term proximity, how close you were to leaders or how well you engaged with leaders. That proximity had a very, very different effect depending on where you were in the organization and how close you were to some of the leadership team. And the research showed how markedly those Socially acceptable ways of practicing were impacting what people felt was available to them, and they were making decisions which they didn't entirely think they should be making, but purely on the back of, of the pressure of these social constructs, which were sort of just un, un, underneath, sitting underneath their action, and just slowly sort of manipulating how people behaved.


### Passage: When shared leadership fits: interdependence, creativity, complexity [17:49–19:29, 220 words]

Note (AI): Gives the three work characteristics that favour distributed leadership and explains why strategy work was his focus.

Jordan Ludlow, guest [17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1069):
> So for me, that shared leadership concept really, really resonated with me. But, so I've really tried within my own sphere of influence to try and Make a concerted effort to shift from that traditional heroic hierarchical vertical leadership to a more shared leadership. But also, for me, there's like a pragmatic realization that the magnitude of the shift is really, really large. And there are certain areas that this type of shift to a more shared, distributed, collaborative leadership is more beneficial for an organization. And, you know, there's, there's three areas from the research that I did, which if those characteristics are present in the type of work you're doing, there's a significant chance that a more shared, distributed leadership will have much better outcomes. And that's really around the, the level of interdependence in the work that you're doing. The degree to which it requires creativity and the complexity of that work. And for me, strategic work exhibits each of those three characteristics. And that's really why our foundation for me was around how do you create strategic coherence, a mutual understanding of an organization's direction amongst multiple levels of an organization so that people can make the right decisions in their day-to-day work and progress the organization forward, as opposed to just keep moving and churning.


### Passage: Reshaping strategy practice with OKRs and meeting rhythms [22:25–24:27, 301 words]

Note (AI): A practical account of how the research was applied: alignment, debate, accountability, granular OKRs and fixed meeting cadences, with reported results.

Jordan Ludlow, guest [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1345):
> Very much so. And, and, and that's why I sort of found that the, the practical application for me has been very much in the strategy space. So I've reshaped the way that my organization, because I've got, I've got the ability to influence that quite heavily, I've reshaped sort of the way that we, we practice strategy. and I've really tried to harness this more collaborative, shared, distributed leadership to try and create alignments and try and get a structural framework of transition rules, which allow those people, that are, that are within that strategy space to exercise true and meaningful autonomy, when they go about their daily work. And, you know, for me, some of the key elements, and they're quite simple, really, is, is around just alignment and access to information, which we, we often forget about. It's, it's about creating a space for debate, building shared understanding of the context and what we're going after, you know, what really are we going after. It's, it's about empowering individuals to take accountability to deliver. We've got really, really clearly defined expected outcomes in granular OKRs now from a strategy perspective with the priorities that we're setting. And then another key thing for me has been establishing consistent strategic meeting rhythms. We had a very much a, a ad hoc way of practicing strategy, and we've, we've now got into quarterly, monthly, weekly meeting rhythms, key stakeholders, granular OKRs, absolute accountability, full access to transparent information. And we've been running it since Since late last year, so, we're now into the fourth quarter that we're running it, or third quarter that we're running it, and I think I am seeing some significant improvements just in terms of the collaboration, the ownership, and a sense of purpose amongst the team.


### Passage: Key message: unwritten rules beneath every organisation [26:58–28:40, 293 words]

Note (AI): Jordan's main advice for leaders entering or changing organisations: surface the embedded social constructs before trying to change behaviour.

Jordan Ludlow, guest [26:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1618):
> I think for me, the key take out from my research, and, and, and I've gone through the shared leadership and, and, and other elements, but for me, the key take out from my research was we need to understand that organizations have this history, this, this incredible memory that sits underneath them, and As leaders, we need to really understand, especially if you're moving between organizations or you go into a, a, a new organization, is that there are these unwritten rules which are firmly, firmly embedded, and no one talks about them. But when you come in and you want to try and initiate change or, or get people to perform their duties in a different way or think differently, that We mustn't negate the power of that underlying, those social constructs that sit underneath the organization, and only through really trying to make them explicit will we start to understand them, as I, as I did now. When I presented my research, no one really thought about, about these things when I presented them back, and they were so, there were such common threads between the fourteen interviewees, from the people that had been there for twenty years to the people that had been there for two years, were seeing exactly the same things, and they were seeing so many positives about them, but they were also seeing in what context there can be negatives about them, and that would really be, that, that was my key learning and the key take out from this is don't forget about those social constructs and their ability to actually influence what people perceive as what type of action they can take and their capacity for action, because they can be very limiting.


### Quotes

> "I come from a traditional science background. I studied a, a BSc, and I completed a BSc honors in biochemistry a long time ago."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=69)

> "the knowledge can't simply be in the head of the leader."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=239)

> "understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [04:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=245)

> "I had the privilege of working with Johan Strumpfer, and I was, throughout the course, I was really struck by a lot of the learning that came from, from his, his courses. I read a couple of his papers, and, and one that really resonated with me was when he spoke about, you know, organizational design"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [07:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=463)

> "it creates an environment where you are able to actually have both high control and high autonomy."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504)

> "people really are looking to make a meaningful impact in their daily work."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [17:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1021)

> "Chia and Holt talk about a concept which they call relational dwelling. Now, from my background, I was very much always focused on this, this building and planning, as opposed to the actual dwelling in a situation and the fact that you actually have to make decisions in the flow of practice, as opposed to take it away from a situation and then think about it and plan it and then go back and execute it."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [20:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1212)

> "the whole message we have at the moment is that we are culture. I am culture, okay?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [24:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1482)

> "someone that, that Might actually be the least likely to come up with an unbelievable answer and to give me a different perspective and to add value to a conversation, can add value to a conversation simply because they're looking at it from a completely different lens."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [26:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1580)

> "there are these unwritten rules which are firmly, firmly embedded, and no one talks about them."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649)

> "don't forget about those social constructs and their ability to actually influence what people perceive as what type of action they can take and their capacity for action, because they can be very limiting."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1708)


### Claims

> "I studied a, a BSc, and I completed a BSc honors in biochemistry a long time ago. I've since gone on to study a postgraduate diploma in business administration at the UCT,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Career background · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=71)

> "I started with British American Tobacco, post studies. I've worked in, for them for ten years in consumer marketing, product development, and blending, and various trade roles."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Career background · [01:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=85)

> "And I am now working for a retail, specialist retail asset management business operating in the FMCG logistics industry. I'm currently the MD at that business,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Career background · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=97)

> "I wasn't looking Or something that would enhance my own technical capabilities or competencies, I was looking for a far more holistic learning experience."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA journey · [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=119)

> "Things like complexity theory, you know, really helped me to understand that there are such complex and emergent challenges for today's organizations that the, the knowledge can't simply be in the head of the leader."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [03:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=226)

> "And that was quite liberating for me, understanding that as the leader, you don't have to have all the answers. And what that did for me, it paved the way to firstly be a lot more comfortable with that uncertainty and have a little bit more patience to allow patterns to emerge as I sort of probe things."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=243)

> "also did a BSc in, in geophysics and mathematics. And so I come from a very quantitative background in analyzing data and finding, patterns in the data and that sort of thing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: EMBA journey · [04:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=295)

> "It was really around trying to understand how I can allow people to take some of that operational noise out of my day-to-day role so that I can focus on some of my key objectives, and, and really how do I empower them to actually do that."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Human agency and autonomy · [06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=366)

> "and, and often the success of those organizations is determined by the speed between when they detect an, an adjustment or a change, and the response that they take. And that response It's very difficult to get quickly if you are running an old traditional hierarchical model of working."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [06:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=409)

> "So my title really was towards the, a theory of, for improved strategic coherence, and it, it was about exploring the role of leadership practice and the social constructs of organizational culture and habitus."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategic coherence · [07:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=448)

> "he spoke about how you can progress, how you want to try and move organizations from first-order organization, which is like a command and control where you design the outcome, to second-order organization where you rather design the rules of the transformation."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=481)

> "it creates an environment where you are able to actually have both high control and high autonomy. And that control is not in the, is not in the form of traditional control. It's really in the form of getting alignment between the parts,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Human agency and autonomy · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=504)

> "those social constructs, things like organizational culture and habitus, which is, which is from Bordeaux's theory of practice, is really around what type of socially acceptable ways of acting and doing things,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=592)

> "I followed a sort of a mixed methodology. The foundation of my research methodology was action research. I did a two-stage action research."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA research methodology · [10:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=641)

> "I did fourteen interviews of about hour and a half, and then I, I did a effectively a, a series of second interviews with, with the executive leadership."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA research methodology · [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=695)

> "the type of grounded theory that I used was constructivist grounded theory, because I really wanted to try and explore each of the individual's perspectives on the phenomenon that I was studying,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: EMBA research methodology · [12:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=728)

> "So shared leadership really, for me, the three key ways or antecedents to shared leadership, which came out of my research, was how do you create shared purpose? So team members having similar meanings of the team's primary objectives and focusing on collective goals."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=812)

> "How do you enable social support where team members provide emotional and psychological strength to one another, which improves the cooperation and a shared sense of responsibility for those outcomes? And then the third one is voice, the degree to which a team's members have input into how the team carries out its purpose."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [13:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=833)

> "People were talking around characteristics like high energy, entrepreneurial, and impulsive culture, a culture of subjective decision-making, a culture dominated by informal and unstructured communication networks, and then very strong power dynamics in what people term proximity, how close you were to leaders or how well you engaged with leaders."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [15:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=904)

> "and they were making decisions which they didn't entirely think they should be making, but purely on the back of, of the pressure of these social constructs, which were sort of just un, un, underneath, sitting underneath their action, and just slowly sort of manipulating how people behaved."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [15:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=947)

> "And enabling that individual agency is really around Creating meaningful autonomy. And it's a crucial element for high-performing organizations, where we, we rely on individuals or group of individuals to be able to take action on a day-to-day basis"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Human agency and autonomy · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1025)

> "there's a significant chance that a more shared, distributed leadership will have much better outcomes. And that's really around the, the level of interdependence in the work that you're doing. The degree to which it requires creativity and the complexity of that work."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [18:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1119)

> "how do you create strategic coherence, a mutual understanding of an organization's direction amongst multiple levels of an organization so that people can make the right decisions in their day-to-day work"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategic coherence · [19:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1150)

> "and Chia and Holt talk about a concept which they call relational dwelling. Now, from my background, I was very much always focused on this, this building and planning, as opposed to the actual dwelling in a situation and the fact that you actually have to make decisions in the flow of practice,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Shared leadership · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1211)

> "because in a, a, a emergency situation, everybody needs to know, you know, what to do and how to respond and, and who's the leader and, and who's going to take control. But I think to get productive, meaningful work done, everybody in the team needs to have a voice, and they have to be able to speak up,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Shared leadership · [21:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1308)

> "some of the key elements, and they're quite simple, really, is, is around just alignment and access to information, which we, we often forget about. It's, it's about creating a space for debate, building shared understanding of the context and what we're going after,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategy practice · [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1392)

> "We had a very much a, a ad hoc way of practicing strategy, and we've, we've now got into quarterly, monthly, weekly meeting rhythms, key stakeholders, granular OKRs, absolute accountability, full access to transparent information."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategy practice · [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1429)

> "we're now into the fourth quarter that we're running it, or third quarter that we're running it, and I think I am seeing some significant improvements just in terms of the collaboration, the ownership, and a sense of purpose amongst the team."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Strategy practice · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1453)

> "Every single person in the organization has a role to play in the culture of the organization. And you have to find a way to exhibit the culture that you want to see in the organization."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Social constructs and culture · [24:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1491)

> "coming from a place where I felt I wasn't doing my job, if someone asked me a question and I didn't quite know it, I'm now very, very comfortable with the fact that I don't need to have all the answers."
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Complexity and uncertainty · [26:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1567)

> "there are these unwritten rules which are firmly, firmly embedded, and no one talks about them. But when you come in and you want to try and initiate change or, or get people to perform their duties in a different way or think differently, that We mustn't negate the power of that underlying, those social constructs that sit underneath the organization,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [27:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1649)

> "there were such common threads between the fourteen interviewees, from the people that had been there for twenty years to the people that had been there for two years, were seeing exactly the same things,"
> — Jordan Ludlow, guest · topic: Social constructs and culture · [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1686)

> "If you want to change the story, you have to understand, firstly, the stories we've been telling to ourselves over the last couple of years and through the formation of the company to be able to change the story later on."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Social constructs and culture · [28:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1206229_high.mp3#t=1734)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. I recently completed an Executive MBA through the University of Cape Town's Graduate School of Business. With classes moving on-line (in 2020 and 2021) due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to learn about their research. In this podcast I speak to Jordan Ludlow, who is the managing director of Tradereach. In his research project Jordan explored the role of shared leadership to improve the flow of strategy development and execution. In enabling strategic coherence he had three major findings: 1. Shifting from command-and-control to shared leadership; 2. Understanding social constructs (i.e. the underlying story of an organisation); 3. The importance of human agency. Reach out to Jordan Ludlow on LinkedIn · Learn more about UCT's EMBA · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #022 Understanding my desire to be a biotech entrepreneur | Mauritz Venter

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/022-understanding-my-desire-to-be-a/
- Date: 2022-07-16 (as at 2022-07-16)
- Guest: Mauritz Venter
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Biotech entrepreneurship, Desire and resilience, Reflective practice, Practical rationality research, Executive MBA learning, Values and meaning
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1205820
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3

### About the guest: Mauritz Venter

- CEO and co-founder · AzarGen Biotechnologies
- A scientist by training who studied human genetics and started a biotech startup at the end of his post-grad studies. He completed the Executive MBA at UCT's Graduate School of Business, researching his desire to be a biotech entrepreneur.

In their own words:

> "I'm a, I'm a scientist, by training. I started studying human genetics pre-grad, and, I was always intrigued during those years when I studied, intrigued by the business of, of science, business of specifically biotechnology," [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=62)

> "at the end of my post-grad studies, I, I started a biotech venture, a biotech startup, and, during that time, You know, doing science as well in the lab and also writing business plans and pitching to investors and raising, money and all the entrepreneurial startup, stuff that you do during the valley of, that they call the startup valley of death." [01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=103)

> "I've done these business courses at various business schools, but, two courses I did at UCT GSB, Finance for Non-Financial Managers, and the other one was a Project Management course," [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=136)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani interviews fellow UCT GSB Executive MBA student Mauritz Venter, a scientist and biotech founder, about his research project on his desire to be a biotech entrepreneur. Mauritz explains how a strategy assignment prompted the question of why he stays in a high-risk venture despite oscillating passion and fear of failure. He describes the practical rationality methodology based on breakdowns and sense-making, the themes his auto-hermeneutic study produced, and how he unified them into 'the performative manifestation of being'. The host adds her own reflections on reflective practice, phenomenology and values as a filter for future choices.

**Key ideas**

- Mauritz frames his research around why an entrepreneur sustains action when passion and fear of failure keep oscillating, calling the constant thread 'desire'. ([04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=299) [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=378) [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=387))
- Mauritz explains practical rationality: while absorbed in practice, a breakdown, unintended or deliberate, triggers reflection through which sense-making happens. ([08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=499) [09:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=549) [09:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=560) [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=585))
- Mauritz found that love for science, rather than the entrepreneurial journey itself, underlies his desire, since academic and entrepreneurial projects produced the same feelings. ([13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=807) [13:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=816))
- Mauritz reports that telling stakeholders and family during a breakdown, rather than holding it in, relieved tension, which he names relational connectedness. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772) [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772))
- Mauritz argues the themes cannot be seen in isolation; their interrelatedness forms a global theme applicable to any practice seeking a desired outcome. ([16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=967) [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=985) [16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1012) [17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1040))
- Mauritz defines desire as actions taken in response to a projection of what is imagined, a purposeful, goal-directed way of being. ([20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1237) [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1289))
- The host argues that knowing your values acts as a filter for choosing direction; without knowing your purpose, choosing is very difficult. ([19:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1186) [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1187))

**Practical rationality (breakdown and sense-making)** ([08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=499) [09:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=549) [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=585) [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=621))

1. Be absorbed and immersed in the flow of a practice, taking tools and surroundings for granted.
2. Experience a temporary interruption or breakdown, either unintended or a deliberate intervention.
3. Stop for a moment and reflect on your entwinement with others and things.
4. Through that reflection sense-making happens and you grasp the logic of your practice.

**Lessons**

- Mauritz suggests that sharing a setback with stakeholders and family, rather than withdrawing, can relieve tension during a breakdown. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772))
- Mauritz advises continuous reflection and not taking things for granted, which he says brings appreciation and gratefulness. ([18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1133) [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1140))
- Mauritz argues that repeatedly reflecting on your actions through your own values confirms whether something is worthwhile and brings you close to truthfulness. ([22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1350) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1362))
- Mauritz's experience indicates that examining what drives you can reveal a different motivation than assumed, such as love for science over entrepreneurship. ([13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=807))
- Petro suggests clarifying your purpose so it can serve as a filter for deciding where to spend future time. ([19:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1186))

**Who it's for:** Science-trained founders, biotech entrepreneurs and professionals considering an Executive MBA, especially those interested in reflective practice, phenomenological research and understanding what sustains them through risk and uncertainty.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Petro says Mauritz won the class award for the research project that most embodied the spirit of the MBA philosophy. ([00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=40))
- Mauritz took Finance for Non-Financial Managers and a Project Management course at UCT GSB. ([02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=136))
- His research title includes 'Finding Orientation with Growth, Meaning, and Resilience'. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=366))
- The practical rationality framework draws on philosopher Martin Heidegger's concept of entwinement. ([10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=621))
- Mauritz used a modified autobiographical method called auto-hermeneutics. ([11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=665))
- His global theme was named 'The performative manifestation of being'. ([16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1012))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Why would a scientist choose to do an Executive MBA?**
A: Mauritz says he had specialised in science and needed business expertise; the UCT EMBA appealed because it is implemented in practice on real business data rather than memorised to get a mark. ([01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=62) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=166))

**Q: What keeps an entrepreneur going despite fear of failure?**
A: Mauritz calls it desire, a constant line through the oscillation between passion and fear of failure, which his study linked to love for science, relational connectedness, willingness and aesthetic appreciation. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=378) [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=738) [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=807) [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=822))

**Q: What is practical rationality as a research method?**
A: Mauritz describes it as grasping the logic of your practice through breakdowns: interruptions in the flow of work that prompt reflection and sense-making, drawing on Heidegger's idea of entwinement. ([08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=499) [08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=499) [09:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=549) [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=621))

**Q: What is auto-hermeneutics?**
A: Mauritz explains it as a modified autobiographical method: the study and interpretation of his own autobiographical narrative, used within phenomenology. ([11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=665))

**Q: How should you handle a setback in a startup?**
A: Mauritz found that telling his stakeholders and family during a breakdown, instead of holding it in, relieved the tension. ([12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772) [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772))

**Q: How does Mauritz define desire?**
A: As actions taken in response to a projection of what is imagined, the potentiality of what could be, and a purposeful, goal-directed way of being to act, think and feel towards something you want. ([20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1237) [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1289))

**Q: Do the findings apply beyond entrepreneurship?**
A: Mauritz says that after unifying his themes into 'the performative manifestation of being', he saw it applied to any practice where you seek a desired outcome. ([16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1012) [17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1040))

**Q: What did the EMBA change in how Mauritz thinks?**
A: He says he now reflects continuously, tries not to take things for granted, and infuses findings with his own values and character. ([18:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1080) [18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1133))


### Passage: From human genetics to biotech startup and EMBA [01:02–03:08, 333 words]

Note (AI): Mauritz's own account of his scientific training, founding a biotech startup, short business courses and why the practice-based EMBA appealed to him.

Mauritz Venter, guest [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=62):
> I'm a, I'm a scientist, by training. I started studying human genetics pre-grad, and, I was always intrigued during those years when I studied, intrigued by the business of, of science, business of specifically biotechnology, and its major in-influence from the, from the US, from activities in the US, mapping the human genome and companies like that. So I, I decided this is something that I want to pursue, that I want to be in and be involved with, especially with this almost love for science that I'm, that I, that I realize I, I have. And, and yeah, so I, after, at the end of my post-grad studies, I, I started a biotech venture, a biotech startup, and, during that time, You know, doing science as well in the lab and also writing business plans and pitching to investors and raising, money and all the entrepreneurial startup, stuff that you do during the valley of, that they call the startup valley of death. You know, I, I, I've done quite a few short business courses that I thought, look, I've, I've specialized in, in science, but I really need some business expertise, and I've done these business courses at various business schools, but, two courses I did at UCT GSB, Finance for Non-Financial Managers, and the other one was a Project Management course, and, it was during that time that, I heard about the, the Executive MBA course, and I thought, this is very intriguing, you know, something different, and it was only ten years later that, yeah, I, I went to an information session on this course, so when they highlighted the idea that this is not just Information that you memorize and regurgitate to get a mark, this is something that you implement in practice. This is something that, that you really, it's real life, real data that, that they evaluate you on, in your business. I thought this is fascinating and yeah, I decided let's, let's go for it.


### Passage: How the research topic on desire emerged [04:59–06:50, 335 words]

Note (AI): Explains how a strategy assignment led to studying desire and why resilience between passion and fear of failure mattered.

Mauritz Venter, guest [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=299):
> Yes, that actually, it came out of a, a concept or phenomenon that I was intrigued with during our strategy block. The topic came out of a, a strategy assignment, and within this assignment, I, I focused while I was developing the, this, this, while we developed a theory of strategy, this whole idea of actions that are, that need to be taken in, in, to achieve a desired outcome or maintain a desired state in business. And this word desire, it was sort of, you know, I, I was intrigued by that because it's something that you want to achieve, but what is this? What is this desire? And I was drawn to this, to, you know, to this concept. So my theme for my, you know, I decided to take that out of, out of the strategy paper and, and, and, yeah, go further with that. And that was the, I wanted to know what this, I called it the clarity of desire. And, and how do you gain clarity of this desire? What is this desire? And, Yeah, it started there, Petro. It started out of that, and that was... I took a chance actually with this topic, and luckily the, the lecturers and, you know, they accepted this. Obviously, I had to add my whole bioentrepreneurial practice to this topic, the... And I've, I've added to the title, Finding Orientation with Growth, Meaning, and Resilience. And the resilience part was actually the important part because that came out of real... my real life experience, is why do you still stay in the game? How can you sustain entrepreneurial action if this oscillation between passion and fear of, fear of failure is consistently there? You know, what, what is it? And I called it the desire. it's, it's as if it was this constant line going through these oscillations of passion and fear of failure. And yeah, that's the topic that I thought, okay, this is what I want to take forward.


### Passage: Practical rationality: breakdowns and sense-making explained [08:19–10:45, 401 words]

Note (AI): A step-by-step explanation of the research framework: immersion in practice, breakdown, reflection and sense-making, grounded in Heidegger.

Mauritz Venter, guest [08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=499):
> I, I used a research methodology that was proposed by my, my supervisor. it was, it's called practical rationality. And it's actually a great concept. The idea is, and it's, it's, the idea is while you are in the flow of practice, and, we've, we've done, we've done now the, the idea of what is a practice, and strategies practice, leadership as practice, but actually anything that you are involved with, any activity that you, while you are busy with others, other people or things you take for granted, you are absorbed in it, you are immersed in it, you don't focus too much on necessarily on, let's say, I'm working on the laptop or this, here's my desk, all of this, these things. You don't f- you know, this is taken almost for granted, but there might be a temporary disruption or interruption, and they, the theory for practical rationality is, you can grasp the logic of your practice. Once you experience this interruption, they call it a breakdown. And it's in response to this breakdown where sense-making happens. And all that is actually that is, is a reflection. You stop for a moment, it's temporary. You stop, reflect on it. And it happens in business, it happens in with a, with a project that you are busy with. it can happen with anything that you are busy in the flow of what you are doing, and suddenly it stops. There's an interruption. And this, this interruption can be, something unin- unintended, unexpected. It can be a massive thing in business that happened, or it can be deliberate. It can be a deliberate intervention, that you decided, oh, no, I, I'm busy with this project or busy with this activity, but I'm, I'm deliberately stopping this. And due to that small interruption and you reflecting on that, The idea, the, the logic of this theoretical framework is, or the, the idea of the theoretical framework is, it's there where you make now sense of your environment, and it's based on the philosopher Martin Heidegger of his philosophy of, we are always in, he calls it entwinement, we are always entwined with others and things, and you are absorbed in that, and once there's a breakdown, sense-making happens while you are reflecting on that entwinement, and that is how you then grasp the logic of your practice. That was the framework.


### Passage: The themes behind sustaining entrepreneurial desire [12:18–14:25, 336 words]

Note (AI): Lists the study's findings, including the surprise that love for science, not entrepreneurship, drives him, and the role of telling others during breakdowns.

Mauritz Venter, guest [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=738):
> So the, the major themes in response to, to the breakdowns using my theoretical framework were willingness, willingness to accept what unfolds, willingness to, to be rooted in reality, significance and credibility, that was a theme. I would call it, I called it strategic management and leadership potential, but actually that is skillful coping, that was a, a theme that came out. very, some of them were quite surprising to me, relational connectedness. I found that during a breakdown, instead of holding it, you know, and, and go, almost going into a depression and, and, you know, not telling anyone, I told everyone. I, I told my stakeholders, I told my family, I, so I found that, that, that relieved the tension. So that was relational connectedness. Another one was emotional sensory and bodily expression. I, I didn't realize how powerful, that, that theme was in, in, in sustaining bio, biological action. The other one was love, love for, for science. I thought when I started out was love for the bio-entrepreneurial journey, the action, the stress, the excitement, the com- the combination of all those things, but it wasn't. It was actually the love for science. I had the same feelings when doing an academic project versus an entrepreneurial project. And then the last one that was the most surprising one to, to me, but it had, had mo- had almost the most basic themes to support it, was aesthetic and linguistic appreciation. The idea of something that is beautiful, something, something with, with beauty, leading, be leading beautifully. The beauty of the, the, the modern biotech lab, the, the, the articles that I read, you know, from, from business, from magazines that highlight, biotech companies in the US, just the linguistic piece there, the articulation of it, that, that sense of excitement when I read it, the photos of those labs of the, you know, the, the, the science, that was quite a s- something that, that was sig- significant of, of these findings.


### Passage: Unifying themes into the performative manifestation of being [16:07–17:29, 225 words]

Note (AI): Shows how Mauritz links the themes into one global theme and argues it applies to any practice seeking a desired outcome.

Mauritz Venter, guest [16:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=967):
> It's actually a difficult one because I'm, I'm, I sat with the same type of, you know, what you've mentioned now, you're in a mining industry, and then how do these things, you know, translate to that? And I sat with that same challenge, you know, in, in how do these concepts now relate to that? And so maybe a longer, long answer now to this question is, is also you cannot see these things in isolation. And to apply that was I need to look at the linkages. I need to look at the interrelatedness of these themes. And then out of that, they were unified into a global theme, because that's the only way I could, I could really orientate myself, to see that what, so what, answering that question, what does all of this mean? And I called it The performative manifestation of being. That's the major theme that came out of this, that, you know, symbolizes the active experience of my, what I'm going on inside of, with the ongoing search for, for this character development, and also fostering this clarity of, of by action and continuous reflection, which seems to sustain desire in a high-risk entrepreneurial endeavor. So, so through that, I thought it was not only for entrepreneurship, it was to any practice where you seek a desired outcome.


### Quotes

> "this is not just Information that you memorize and regurgitate to get a mark, this is something that you implement in practice."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [02:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=168)

> "But I would say the psychology, the mindfulness, the philosophy, that part of this whole course, that played a immense role in, in my, my development of, I would say the overall development of, of the self, as I, or, or being. To me, that was very helpful to, to, to see how I can orientate myself within the complexity and uncertainty where I am now. operating in, in my business."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=230)

> "How can you sustain entrepreneurial action if this oscillation between passion and fear of, fear of failure is consistently there?"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=387)

> "I, I thought and I focused on all these blocks, all our assignments played a role, the small win concept and the, performativity versus, re- representational knowledge, the science of the unknown. All of those things played a role, but what I, I didn't know that there were so many definitions or ontologies, if you have to use it."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [07:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=425)

> "And it's in response to this breakdown where sense-making happens."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [09:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=560)

> "I've learned that I could articulate this creative force that I called a desire. I could articulate the, the elements that, that regulate, this, this phenomenon. yeah, that was the major learning, and, and these, these These elements allowed me to, to sort of identify, you know, what is, what is going on when I feel, when I feel this way and going for, in, in sustaining this bioentrepreneurial action and this force to support the world that, to accept what shows up in response to, to my environment and to, to see this reality meaningfully."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=693)

> "I found that during a breakdown, instead of holding it, you know, and, and go, almost going into a depression and, and, you know, not telling anyone, I told everyone."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772)

> "It was actually the love for science. I had the same feelings when doing an academic project versus an entrepreneurial project."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [13:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=816)

> "I thought it was not only for entrepreneurship, it was to any practice where you seek a desired outcome."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [17:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1042)

> "be a bit more aware of what are you really busy with, and out of that comes appreciation and gratefulness."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1140)

> "it's like a filter, that you can then go, okay, well, this, this either resonates with me or it doesn't, or it aligns with my purpose or it doesn't."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1187)

> "I think this is the closest you can get to, get to truthfulness, to, to get what is, what truth means to you."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1362)


### Claims

> "He is the person in our class who won the award for the research project that most embodied the spirit of the MBA philosophy."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA learning · [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=40)

> "I'm a, I'm a scientist, by training. I started studying human genetics pre-grad, and, I was always intrigued during those years when I studied, intrigued by the business of, of science, business of specifically biotechnology,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Biotech entrepreneurship · [01:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=62)

> "at the end of my post-grad studies, I, I started a biotech venture, a biotech startup, and, during that time, You know, doing science as well in the lab and also writing business plans and pitching to investors and raising, money and all the entrepreneurial startup, stuff that you do during the valley of, that they call the startup valley of death."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Biotech entrepreneurship · [01:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=103)

> "I've done these business courses at various business schools, but, two courses I did at UCT GSB, Finance for Non-Financial Managers, and the other one was a Project Management course,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning · [02:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=136)

> "when they highlighted the idea that this is not just Information that you memorize and regurgitate to get a mark, this is something that you implement in practice."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=166)

> "But I would say the psychology, the mindfulness, the philosophy, that part of this whole course, that played a immense role in, in my, my development of, I would say the overall development of, of the self, as I, or, or being."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning · [03:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=230)

> "I also found the position papers we wrote in every block or every course, you know, that the, from a practical perspective, just applying that immediately back into your workplace. And that helped me to grow and also eventually get promoted, I guess, or, or find a new job halfway through,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA learning · [04:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=257)

> "The topic came out of a, a strategy assignment, and within this assignment, I, I focused while I was developing the, this, this, while we developed a theory of strategy, this whole idea of actions that are, that need to be taken in, in, to achieve a desired outcome or maintain a desired state in business."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [05:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=305)

> "Obviously, I had to add my whole bioentrepreneurial practice to this topic, the... And I've, I've added to the title, Finding Orientation with Growth, Meaning, and Resilience."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=366)

> "And the resilience part was actually the important part because that came out of real... my real life experience, is why do you still stay in the game? How can you sustain entrepreneurial action if this oscillation between passion and fear of, fear of failure is consistently there?"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=378)

> "So I knew the feeling, the felt sense, but I didn't know the, the, on the academic side, you know, what, what this would entail."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [07:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=475)

> "I used a research methodology that was proposed by my, my supervisor. it was, it's called practical rationality."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Practical rationality research · [08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=499)

> "the theory for practical rationality is, you can grasp the logic of your practice. Once you experience this interruption, they call it a breakdown. And it's in response to this breakdown where sense-making happens."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Practical rationality research · [09:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=549)

> "And this, this interruption can be, something unin- unintended, unexpected. It can be a massive thing in business that happened, or it can be deliberate. It can be a deliberate intervention,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Practical rationality research · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=585)

> "it's based on the philosopher Martin Heidegger of his philosophy of, we are always in, he calls it entwinement, we are always entwined with others and things,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Practical rationality research · [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=621)

> "I used an autobiographical method, but it was a modified autobiographical method called auto-hermeneutics. And all that means is it's the study, it's, it's the interpretation, it's the study of inter-interpreting my autobiographical narrative."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Practical rationality research · [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=665)

> "So the, the major themes in response to, to the breakdowns using my theoretical framework were willingness, willingness to accept what unfolds, willingness to, to be rooted in reality, significance and credibility, that was a theme."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=738)

> "I found that during a breakdown, instead of holding it, you know, and, and go, almost going into a depression and, and, you know, not telling anyone, I told everyone. I, I told my stakeholders, I told my family, I, so I found that, that, that relieved the tension."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [12:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=772)

> "I thought when I started out was love for the bio-entrepreneurial journey, the action, the stress, the excitement, the com- the combination of all those things, but it wasn't. It was actually the love for science. I had the same feelings when doing an academic project versus an entrepreneurial project."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Biotech entrepreneurship · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=807)

> "And then the last one that was the most surprising one to, to me, but it had, had mo- had almost the most basic themes to support it, was aesthetic and linguistic appreciation. The idea of something that is beautiful, something, something with, with beauty, leading, be leading beautifully."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=822)

> "I think the thing I really appreciated about phenomenology is the beauty of it. It's such a beautiful research methodology because you're really trying to get to underlying meaning and what does a thing truly mean?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Practical rationality research · [15:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=905)

> "is, is also you cannot see these things in isolation. And to apply that was I need to look at the linkages. I need to look at the interrelatedness of these themes."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Reflective practice · [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=985)

> "And I called it The performative manifestation of being. That's the major theme that came out of this, that, you know, symbolizes the active experience of my, what I'm going on inside of, with the ongoing search for, for this character development,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [16:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1012)

> "So, so through that, I thought it was not only for entrepreneurship, it was to any practice where you seek a desired outcome."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1040)

> "You have to infuse that with your own values, with your own character and, and your, your development of yourself."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Values and meaning · [18:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1080)

> "any project that I, you know, want to do or things that I'm busy with, not to take things for granted, be a bit more aware of what are you really busy with, and out of that comes appreciation and gratefulness."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Reflective practice · [18:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1133)

> "It's very, it's like a filter, that you can then go, okay, well, this, this either resonates with me or it doesn't, or it aligns with my purpose or it doesn't. But if you don't know what your purpose is, or, or at least what you're aspiring to become, then it's very difficult to choose a direction to go into the future."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Values and meaning · [19:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1186)

> "I came up with it as a, you know, as, as defined as the actions that are taken in response to a projection of what is imagined, the, the potentiality, because that served me well during my entrepreneurial, venture,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [20:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1237)

> "It's based on another ontology of becoming. It's a way of existence. It's a way of being to act, think, and feel towards something that you want, that you really, you know, that you feel with your whole being, this is something that I want, but in a certain purposeful, goal-directed way."
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Desire and resilience · [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1289)

> "you keep on reflecting on it by infusing your own values to, to, that, that keeps on confirming that this is something good, this is something worthwhile doing. I think this is the closest you can get to, get to truthfulness,"
> — Mauritz Venter, guest · topic: Values and meaning · [22:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1205820_high.mp3#t=1350)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. I recently completed an Executive MBA through the University of Cape Town's Graduate School of Business. With classes moving on-line (in 2020 and 2021) due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to learn about their research. In this podcast I speak to Dr. Mauritz Venter, CEO and co-founder of AzarGen Biotechnologies about his desire to be a biotech entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur is risky, and Mauritz wanted to explore why even in spite of uncertainty, risk and anxiety there was nothing else he would rather do. This study followed on from the intense reflective practice which is part of the EMBA course. Delving deeper into his desire to be a biotech entrepreneur he found that this desire was a result of trying to be true to his values in finding a meaningful orientation that would lead to creating a better world. Learn more about UCT's EMBA � Connect with Dr. Mauritz Venter � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #021 The impact of remote work on organisational design | Desereé van den Berg

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/021-the-impact-of-remote-work-on/
- Date: 2022-06-21 (as at 2022-06-21)
- Guest: Desereé van den Berg
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Remote work and organisational design, Strategy and organisational design, Hybrid work models, Executive MBA learning journey, Research methodology, Personal leadership transformation
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1195676
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3

### About the guest: Desereé van den Berg

- HR Executive · RBS
- HR practitioner for over fifteen years, starting in a call center and moving into learning and development and then mainstream HR; completed an Executive MBA at UCT's Graduate School of Business researching remote work and organisation design.

In their own words:

> "So I'm a HR practitioner by my day job. Been doing it for many, many years. I think over fifteen years now, started to, my career started with a headset on my head in a call center and moved through the ranks through into learning and development and then into mainstream HR." [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=125)

> "And really have been working in all areas of the HR value chain, in various roles and currently in an executive leadership role." [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=146)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

The host, a fellow UCT GSB Executive MBA graduate, talks with Desereé van den Berg, an HR executive, about her EMBA research into how remote work affects organisational design. She explains why she chose the topic after moving her company's offices home during COVID, her constructivist grounded theory method and twelve interviews, and her findings: organisational design is widely misunderstood, is inseparable from strategy, and remote work decisions are being pushed down to HR and IT rather than made strategically. She also describes how she applies this at work and how the EMBA changed her thinking and habits.

**Key ideas**

- Desereé argues organisational design is much more than an organogram and touches every part of the organisation, yet even practitioners in her study were unsure what it meant. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634) [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=734))
- She holds that organisational design and strategy are so interconnected that one cannot stand without the other. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634) [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765) [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765))
- She argues remote work is a disruptive decision, like expanding into a new region, that must be made at a strategic level rather than pushed down to HR and IT. ([13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=782) [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872))
- She says organisations are not making clear decisions about remote work post-pandemic, and the host adds that not deciding leaves people to interpret it for themselves. ([13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=807) [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1204))
- She advises deliberate hybrid design: deciding who needs to be together and when, rather than letting people pick two or three remote days. ([16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=979) [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061))
- She sees knee-jerk return-to-office mandates as the easier decision, lacking rationality and likely to hurt organisations long term. ([20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1230) [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1233) [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1299))
- She says remote work is not new; requests for flexibility date back decades, and ignoring them reflects weak strategic capability. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=790) [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=894))

**Designing a fit-for-purpose remote work model** ([19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1154) [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1158))

1. Understand the context of your own organisation and the environment in which it operates.
2. Look at where your organisation is in its journey and what its strategy is at that point.
3. Design something fit for purpose for your particular organisation rather than a cookie-cutter model.

**Lessons**

- According to Desereé, remote and hybrid work decisions belong at a strategic level, not delegated to HR or IT as operational tasks. ([13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872))
- Desereé advises that hybrid arrangements should be designed around who needs to be together and when, not a fixed choice of remote days. ([17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061))
- She warns that one change in an organisation ripples through the whole system, so systems thinking is needed to see why strategy fails. ([15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=928))
- She argues there is no single remote work model; each organisation must design for its own context and strategy. ([19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1154) [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1158))
- The guest closes by urging leaders to stay open to unlearning and relearning and to keep listening to others' stories. ([26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1582) [26:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1592))

**Who it's for:** HR practitioners, organisational design specialists and executives deciding on remote or hybrid work policies, and prospective or current Executive MBA students interested in UCT GSB's approach and research methods such as grounded theory.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Desereé says she has worked in HR for over fifteen years, starting in a call center. ([02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=125))
- She deployed her company's Cape Town and Joburg offices home within about two to three days at the start of COVID. ([05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=342))
- Her research involved twelve one-hour interviews and close to 1,500 codes. ([09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577))
- She used constructivist grounded theory as her research method. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=524))
- The host notes Elon Musk said his executives must return to work for 40 hours. ([20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1239))
- The host's company uses requisite organisation, based on levels of work and accountabilities. ([18:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1082))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How does remote work affect organisational design?**
A: Desereé found remote or hybrid work affects strategy, processes and systems, IT, and capabilities such as learning and development, leadership and talent, touching the whole organisation. ([10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634) [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=664))

**Q: Who should decide a company's remote work policy?**
A: Desereé argues it should be a strategic-level decision, comparing it to expanding the business into a new region, rather than being pushed down to HR teams and IT. ([13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=782) [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835) [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872))

**Q: Is organisational design just the org chart?**
A: No. Desereé says many people see it as an organogram, but it is far more complex and touches every part of the organisation; an organogram is at most one outcome. ([11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701) [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701))

**Q: How should a hybrid work schedule be designed?**
A: Desereé says be deliberate: decide who needs to be together at what times, physically or online, rather than simply letting people pick two or three remote days. ([17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047) [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061))

**Q: Are return-to-office mandates a good idea?**
A: Desereé calls blanket return-to-office orders knee-jerk and the easier decision; without rationality behind them, she says, they will hurt organisations in the long run. ([20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1230) [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1299))

**Q: What research method did Desereé use for her EMBA dissertation?**
A: She used constructivist grounded theory, building theory from the data, because as a practitioner she could not remove herself from the process. She ran twelve one-hour interviews and worked through about 1,500 codes. ([08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=509) [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=524) [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=553) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577))

**Q: What is different about the UCT Executive MBA?**
A: Both speakers describe practical application instead of exams, position papers applied to work, and personal transformation practices such as meditation, mindfulness, reflection and journaling. ([03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=180) [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=219) [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=272))

**Q: Is remote work a new idea?**
A: Desereé says no: the literature goes back decades to when women entering the workplace asked for flexibility, but organisations ignored it. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=790))


### Passage: Why she researched remote work and organisation design [05:29–06:52, 243 words]

Note (AI): Shows how leading a two-to-three-day office move home during COVID shaped her research question about remote work's effect on the whole organisation.

Desereé van den Berg, guest [05:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=329):
> The world of remote work, do I need to say more than that? so I think, yeah, for us as a class, we, we sort of had that first two weeks together, and then we also had to, we, we, the COVID pandemic in South Africa and sort of in HR leadership, I was the one tasked to sort of deploy both our Cape Town and Joburg offices immediately home within, I think, two to three days, and suddenly we had to adjust to a complete remote world of work. So as a HR practitioner and a people practitioner, I mean, that was just for me, how can I not do something on remote work? so I started actually throughout the two years in my MBA journey with all my position papers, touching on something around remote work or where I saw in, when I did that, for example, viable systems modeling, when we did that paper, also saw the impact of what remote work has on, divisions and on parts of the organization. so that really intrigued me throughout the two-year process, in the middle of the pandemic. And doing all the reading around remote work and hybrid work models, and literature that started to come out about it and what organizations were really grappling with. And that's why I came up with my research topic is to understand how remote work impacts on how we design our organizations going forward post-pandemic.


### Passage: Choosing constructivist grounded theory and twelve interviews [08:29–09:54, 245 words]

Note (AI): Explains the research method, why a practitioner-researcher chose it, and the scale of the data behind her findings.

Desereé van den Berg, guest [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=509):
> So I was very brave. I thought at the time maybe a bit stupid. So I tackled a research methodology that we didn't necessarily go into much depth, during the course, but I found it extremely exciting and, and such a rewarding experience. So I decided to do grounded theory, and in particularly constructivist grounded theory. So grounded theory is really about building theory from what emerges for you out of the data, but that that theory is grounded in, in the data and, and what you find during your research. But constructivist grounded theory, there's three types that I won't go into detail about, but I am particularly decided to go constructivist grounded theory by Cathy Chammas, in particularly because, because I'm a practitioner in the field and I work with people in remote work and strategy all the time, I felt that I couldn't remove myself completely from the process. And constructivist grounded theory, I think, recognizes the fact the researcher cannot completely Be removed, from the research process, and that worked quite well for me.

Petro du Pisani, host [09:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=574):
> So after you went through all of that, how many people did you interview?

Desereé van den Berg, guest [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577):
> Yeah, so I interviewed twelve people, and yeah, you, you can appreciate, and I think fellow students will appreciate it, like I ended up with close to a thousand five hundred, I think, actually codes that I had to work through. so it was twelve one hour, one hour interviews that I conducted.


### Passage: Findings: organisational design misunderstood and tied to strategy [10:34–13:01, 424 words]

Note (AI): Sets out her first findings: design is more than an organogram, practitioners lack clarity on it, and strategy and design are inseparable.

Desereé van den Berg, guest [10:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=634):
> My initial, when I went into it, what the preconceived idea was, is that I'm going to have this huge aha moment in terms of how remote work impacts on organizational design. So there's various frameworks and recipes, if I can call it that, out there in terms of organizational design. And I thought I was going to come out by saying, these are the sort of components of organizational design, and explicitly this is how remote work impacts on, on all of them. So that definitely did emerge in my paper. So I definitely got out of the paper holistically how remote or hybrid work impacts on strategy, how it impacts on processes and systems, how it impacts on IT, how it impacts on organizational capabilities like learning and development, like leadership, like talent. so all of that did come out in my paper, and I could elaborate on all of that. But I think at the end of the day, for me, my theory around it was quite surprising. The first one in particularly that stood out for me is the understanding of organizational design in organizations. A lot of people still see organizational design as an organogram. It's like people sitting in a room and we draw a picture on the board and, and we have to fill blocks. And it's much more complex than that. It really touches each and every single part of your organization. A organogram might be the end of it or one of the, or should be one of the outcomes, let me rather say that, but it's a much more complex. It touches every part of your organization. And there's a clear lack of understanding, not only in organizations by leadership about it, but also funnily enough, even in the practitioners that was took part in my study, a lot of them asked me, so what do you mean when you ask me about organizational design? Which, which was quite surprising. I, I thought practitioners knew automatically. So that was a surprising finding. so there's definitely a lack of teaching in educational, in academic programs on organizational design. And organizational design and strategy was the second thing. They are so interconnected that I actually wrote a part in my paper to say, for me, organizational design is strategy and strategy is organizational design. The one doesn't, cannot stand without the other one. They are so interconnected. You can't think about strategy without thinking about organizational design, and you can't think design without thinking of strategy.


### Passage: Findings: remote work decisions made at the wrong level [13:02–15:42, 458 words]

Note (AI): Contains her core argument and metaphor that remote work is a strategic expansion decision, plus gaps in strategic and systems-thinking capability.

Desereé van den Berg, guest [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=782):
> Then another finding, maybe more towards in particularly remote work, is at that stage we were two years post the pandemic. Remote work is most definitely not a new concept. If you go back in literature and you search, it goes back to when women started entering the workplace decades ago, and they started to ask for work flexibility. But we sort of ignore it, and we don't action it. So there's no, no clear and concise decision-making that organizations are making on remote work post the pandemic. Government used to dictate to us, everybody must go home now, or you can bring a certain part of your workforce back to the office. And now suddenly that, that instruction is no longer there forced by government, organizations struggles to make actual decision about it. And then another finding was where organizations are making decisions about it, they're making it on the wrong level. They're pushing it down to HR teams, for example, and say you have to deploy people home and you have to put a new performance management system in place, and IT must make sure they're all connected. It's such a disruptor that you have to make that decision on a strategic level. I like to use the metaphor when I do talks on it. If you as an organization decide to expand your business into Africa or even into a different province, you make that decision on a strategic level. And then you strategically look at how you're going to execute that across your organization. And you talk about all parts in your organization when you execute that strategy. If you think of hybrid or remote work, is you're actually making a decision to expand your business into people's homes or coffee shops or satellite offices. So how can you not make such a disruptive decision, not on a strategic level? So that's definitely lacking. And then also throughout the whole process, and then maybe the last key finding for me was there's still the lack of strategic capabilities we have in our organizations, because we are ignoring these dots on the horizon. We're ignoring the workers asking for flexible working arrangements and, and to have more balance. So that strategic capability is clearly lacking, and then the organizational design or, maybe a, a more common word that's also used is systems thinking and design thinking that's lacking in our organizations, because we don't understand how things interconnect and interrelate to one another. So we make decisions somewhere in our businesses, or in our organization, and that one change has got a ripple effect throughout the organization, and then we struggle to understand why we're not achieving our objectives or why our strategy is failing.


### Passage: Designing hybrid engagement deliberately, not by picking days [16:19–17:54, 295 words]

Note (AI): The host's example of online training that did not stick, answered with the guest's practical advice on deliberate hybrid design.

Petro du Pisani, host [16:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=979):
> It's about how do you work effectively together when some people are from home and some people are, are not. And one of the things that I saw, because we had to very quickly, give a lot of our training online, so we had to very, and then people would not pay attention. a lot of that training has not stuck. You know, two years later, we go, well, remember we did this training two years ago, and they go, they don't even remember being in the class, you know, even though there's a recording of them being in the class, or the little bubble being in the class, at least. people are not remembering that they actually were in the class. I think it's got a huge impact on that. So, for me, it's like, how do we make sure that people effectively Form part of a team while they're sitting at home, you know, how do we make sure that that happens? Do you have any thoughts around that?

Desereé van den Berg, guest [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1026):
> For me, it's again a design discussion and understanding how simply doing training and online is not going to be a solution for delivering training, for example, or just having Teams meetings now online or having brainstorming sessions online is going to foster engagement and that collaboration. As you have to be deliberate in your design. You have to be deliberate if you do hybrid, for example. You have to say who needs to be together at what times physically or online and bring that into your design. You can't just simply say pick two days or pick three days when you want to work remote. That has to be done creatively and purposefully through design in how you, how you design those engagements.


### Passage: How the EMBA changed her thinking and living [22:32–24:56, 397 words]

Note (AI): The guest describes concrete changes in problem-solving, boundary setting and daily reflection that she attributes to the programme.

Petro du Pisani, host [22:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1352):
> So now that you've gone through all of this work and everything, and, and this podcast is called On Change, so it's about, how you as a person has changed. So how's this work and this, this studying, and EMBA actually changed the way you think and the way that you work?

Desereé van den Berg, guest [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1370):
> key parts for me, again, it's really a truly transformational journey. It's, it's not a cliche, it's not a marketing gimme on the, on the, on UCT's side. My thinking has changed completely in how I, how I look at an organizational challenge or a problem in the workplace. I think as executives, we sometimes think that we've got the answer and that we know most of it, but going through the various models and thinking processes and multiple perspectives and doing the research, I ask different questions when I get a problem. And I look at it more holistically. And I'm still surprised sometimes with what the answer is at the end of the day to a problem. And I think the position papers and even the dissertation has taught us that quite nicely, as you, you go into it thinking you're going to know what the outcome is, but then once you've gone through the process, you are surprised by the end result. And the same apply for me and how I approach problems and challenges in the workplace, is not to have that immediate preconceived idea of what the solution to a challenge is. So that was the first thing. And then the other thing is maybe the softer leadership things. I live better or I live more with intent. I do intentional living. My boundary setting, is much, very much different to what it used to be before. I'm mindful of what I allow and what I don't allow, and what I give my time and my energy to than what I used to before. I'm much more grounded in my thinking and The reflection still as a daily practice allows me to change my behavior as I reflect on things that's happened during the day. so truly a transformational journey, not only from a practical skill leadership, or management competence perspective and problem solving, but also how I show up every day and how I am every day in how I go about life and how I go about things.


### Quotes

> "as an executive and being in a leadership role, I could actually practically go and apply immediately what I've learned on the course, so that was very valuable for me."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [03:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=195)

> "if I want to understand something, maybe I should write a position paper about it and then I'll understand it better."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=291)

> "A lot of people still see organizational design as an organogram."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701)

> "for me, organizational design is strategy and strategy is organizational design."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765)

> "If you think of hybrid or remote work, is you're actually making a decision to expand your business into people's homes or coffee shops or satellite offices."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872)

> "remote work, I like to call it, is not a cookie-cutter approach."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [19:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1154)

> "Everybody must come back to the office. It's the easier decision to make."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [20:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1233)

> "The, the power dynamics in organizations have shifted. I think maybe it's skewed again a little bit too much towards the employee side now versus before it was completely on the organization having that power dynamic. And somehow we have to design and co-create with everybody in the organization to find the middle ground."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1281)

> "It's, it's not a cliche, it's not a marketing gimme on the, on the, on UCT's side."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1374)

> "we read a paper on, don't simplify, complexify."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1502)

> "things like circular economy, our social responsibility, you know, our responsibility as true leaders today is so much more than just making sure our organization makes profits. and it's time for leadership to, to sort of step up to the plate and look at things more realistically and look outside as well than just making profits in-house."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1544)

> "We don't know it all, even if we've been doing it for many years, keep on learning, keep on listening to other people's stories,"
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · [26:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1592)


### Claims

> "I was looking for that something special, more in terms of personal transformation, personal leadership, and something more purposeful that will contribute to my growth journey and for me to give something back"
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=84)

> "I think there's a big lack in ethical leadership development and for us to, to look at bigger issues. And for me, the Executive MBA at UCT really spoke to that transformational leadership journey."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=107)

> "So I'm a HR practitioner by my day job. Been doing it for many, many years. I think over fifteen years now, started to, my career started with a headset on my head in a call center and moved through the ranks through into learning and development and then into mainstream HR."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=125)

> "And really have been working in all areas of the HR value chain, in various roles and currently in an executive leadership role."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=146)

> "It's learning tools, it's learning techniques, it's learning methodologies, it's learning different models, and then having to go and practically apply it in your work environment. So that for me was exceptionally valuable."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [03:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=180)

> "things like meditation, mindfulness, reflections, journaling about executive wellbeing and leadership wellbeing, and actually practicing those skills that we learn and not just going on a course or reading a book about it, but that we were forced to practice those skills."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [03:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=219)

> "if you've written a hundred page documents about a specific topic and applied it to your work, you're never going to forget those principles."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [04:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=272)

> "the COVID pandemic in South Africa and sort of in HR leadership, I was the one tasked to sort of deploy both our Cape Town and Joburg offices immediately home within, I think, two to three days, and suddenly we had to adjust to a complete remote world of work."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=342)

> "And that's why I came up with my research topic is to understand how remote work impacts on how we design our organizations going forward post-pandemic."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [06:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=403)

> "But I was finding a gap or there was a, a need for me to read more about remote work holistically, and to almost find a, a paper or a piece of work detached on remote work and the whole organization, and not just pieces of an organization."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [07:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=477)

> "So I decided to do grounded theory, and in particularly constructivist grounded theory. So grounded theory is really about building theory from what emerges for you out of the data, but that that theory is grounded in, in the data and, and what you find during your research."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Research methodology · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=524)

> "because I'm a practitioner in the field and I work with people in remote work and strategy all the time, I felt that I couldn't remove myself completely from the process."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Research methodology · [09:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=553)

> "so I interviewed twelve people, and yeah, you, you can appreciate, and I think fellow students will appreciate it, like I ended up with close to a thousand five hundred, I think, actually codes that I had to work through."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Research methodology · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=577)

> "so I did phenomenology. and there you really have to try and figure out the feeling behind what the person is telling you. You have to really go deep and you have to almost analyze each interview a couple of times to get to what the person is actually meaning."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Research methodology · [10:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=601)

> "So I definitely got out of the paper holistically how remote or hybrid work impacts on strategy, how it impacts on processes and systems, how it impacts on IT, how it impacts on organizational capabilities like learning and development, like leadership, like talent."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [11:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=664)

> "A lot of people still see organizational design as an organogram. It's like people sitting in a room and we draw a picture on the board and, and we have to fill blocks. And it's much more complex than that. It really touches each and every single part of your organization."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [11:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=701)

> "even in the practitioners that was took part in my study, a lot of them asked me, so what do you mean when you ask me about organizational design? Which, which was quite surprising."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [12:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=734)

> "so there's definitely a lack of teaching in educational, in academic programs on organizational design."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=750)

> "for me, organizational design is strategy and strategy is organizational design. The one doesn't, cannot stand without the other one. They are so interconnected."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [12:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=765)

> "Remote work is most definitely not a new concept. If you go back in literature and you search, it goes back to when women started entering the workplace decades ago, and they started to ask for work flexibility."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=790)

> "So there's no, no clear and concise decision-making that organizations are making on remote work post the pandemic."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=807)

> "They're pushing it down to HR teams, for example, and say you have to deploy people home and you have to put a new performance management system in place, and IT must make sure they're all connected. It's such a disruptor that you have to make that decision on a strategic level."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [13:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=835)

> "If you think of hybrid or remote work, is you're actually making a decision to expand your business into people's homes or coffee shops or satellite offices. So how can you not make such a disruptive decision, not on a strategic level?"
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=872)

> "there's still the lack of strategic capabilities we have in our organizations, because we are ignoring these dots on the horizon. We're ignoring the workers asking for flexible working arrangements and, and to have more balance."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [14:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=894)

> "So we make decisions somewhere in our businesses, or in our organization, and that one change has got a ripple effect throughout the organization, and then we struggle to understand why we're not achieving our objectives or why our strategy is failing."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [15:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=928)

> "we, we had had a sort of a trial run for, for working remotely about a year before the pandemic actually, struck, because we were based in the center of Johannesburg."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [15:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=948)

> "But it's not, for me, it's not about IT, okay? It's not about the ability to be able to connect from home. It's not about that. It's about how do you work effectively together when some people are from home and some people are, are not."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=972)

> "a lot of that training has not stuck. You know, two years later, we go, well, remember we did this training two years ago, and they go, they don't even remember being in the class,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=994)

> "As you have to be deliberate in your design. You have to be deliberate if you do hybrid, for example. You have to say who needs to be together at what times physically or online and bring that into your design."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [17:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1047)

> "You can't just simply say pick two days or pick three days when you want to work remote. That has to be done creatively and purposefully through design in how you, how you design those engagements."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1061)

> "In our company, we use requisite organizations, so it's basically levels of work and, the correct accountabilities and capabilities at the correct level of work."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Remote work and organisational design · [18:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1082)

> "You can't apply the same model to each and every single organization. You have to understand the context of your own organization and the environment in which it operates, and then look at also where your organization is in their journey and what the strategy is at that given point in time, and then design something that's fit for purpose for your particular organization."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1158)

> "It's almost like you're effectively, by not making a decision, you're just actually allowing people to interpret for themselves what it means."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Strategy and organisational design · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1204)

> "So we see all these knee-jerk reactions happening now. Everybody must come back to the office. It's the easier decision to make."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [20:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1230)

> "just recently in the news, we saw Elon Musk saying that all his executives must come back to work and they have to spend 40 hours at work. or basically they get promoted out of the company, you know?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1239)

> "The, the power dynamics in organizations have shifted. I think maybe it's skewed again a little bit too much towards the employee side now versus before it was completely on the organization having that power dynamic."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1281)

> "But I think just going back and saying, you know, you're out of here if you're not back in the office, and there's no, there's no rationality behind that decision-making, it's going to hurt you in the long run."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Hybrid work models · [21:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1299)

> "for me, it's the, the online conversations, the quality isn't as good because you've got these, these little thirty minutes meetings in your diary for the entire, you don't get a chance to just chat."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Hybrid work models · [22:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1321)

> "I ask different questions when I get a problem. And I look at it more holistically. And I'm still surprised sometimes with what the answer is at the end of the day to a problem."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1406)

> "I live better or I live more with intent. I do intentional living. My boundary setting, is much, very much different to what it used to be before."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [24:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1446)

> "one of the papers that stuck with me was we read a paper on, don't simplify, complexify. So you're always trying to think about what additional angles can I bring to this?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1501)

> "our responsibility as true leaders today is so much more than just making sure our organization makes profits."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [25:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1549)

> "For me, it's just about leaderships opening their hearts and their minds and actively pursuing new knowledge and be open to unlearn and relearn."
> — Desereé van den Berg, guest · topic: Personal leadership transformation · [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1195676_high.mp3#t=1582)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. Over the past two years (2020-2021) we have been working towards our Executive MBAs through the University of Cape Town's Graduate Business School. With classes moving on-line due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to hear about their research. In this podcast I speak to Desereé van den Berg (RBS | HR Executive) about her research project which explored the link between remote work and organisation design. Remote or hybrid work is a hot topic as most of us have experienced the shift to remote work over the past couple of years, a trend accelerated due to the covid-19 pandemic. Desereé tells me more about why she chose this topic, how she did the research and what her major findings were. She also shares how this research changed her and the way she has applied her research in her workplace. Desereé found that a company's strategy is so intertwined with organisational design that that it is imperative that a strategic decision needs to be made about remote work at the correct level of the organisation. Find out more about the UCT GSB EMBA · Connect with Desereé van den Berg · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #020 Chris Smith | Finding happiness at work

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/020-finding-happiness-at-work/
- Date: 2022-06-16 (as at 2022-06-16)
- Guest: Chris Smith
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Happiness at work, Leadership and direct reports, Purpose and authenticity, Phenomenology research methods, EMBA learning journey, Leading through uncertainty
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1194287
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3

### About the guest: Chris Smith

- Freelance Consultant in Project and Business Management
- Engineer by training who studied at UCT, graduating in 2005, and worked for one company for 13 years; fellow UCT EMBA student whose research focused on improving happiness at work.

In their own words:

> "I am an engineer by training. I studied at UCT, graduated in 2005. And since then, I've worked for one, company that's gone through a couple of different owners." [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=60)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with fellow UCT EMBA student Chris Smith about his dissertation, Improving Happiness at Work, What Leaders Can Do and Why They Should Do It. Chris, an engineer by training, explains what prompted the topic and how he combined design science with phenomenology in about twenty-two interviews. He sets out his findings: the experiences people described were eudaimonic rather than hedonic, purpose and authenticity mattered most, and the direct manager had a strong influence. He also found that uncertainty drove unhappiness. The conversation ends with how the EMBA changed him, including the Viktor Frankl idea of hinge moments.

**Key ideas**

- Chris reports that every workplace experience interviewees described was eudaimonic rather than hedonic; nobody cited a raise or promotion, and rewards mattered for recognition. ([05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=345) [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=736) [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=764) [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=764))
- Chris found purpose and authenticity to be the most dominant drivers of happiness at work, especially when personal purpose aligned with the company's purpose. ([11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=663) [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=789) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1314))
- Chris argues the direct relationship between a manager and their reports is crucial and can overshadow unhappiness with other parts of the organisation. ([15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=907) [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=920) [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=938) [15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=940))
- Chris found that money does not compensate for unhappiness: interviewees left for lower-paying jobs or for no job at all. ([13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=821) [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=821))
- Chris identifies uncertainty as the factor behind almost all unhappy experiences and argues leaders should be upfront, honest and transparent. ([21:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1282) [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1345) [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1345) [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1354))
- Chris holds that organisations are human-designed and therefore improvable, drawing on Herbert Simon's science of the artificial. ([06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=413) [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=452) [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=464))
- Chris argues that because people take work home, improving happiness at work improves happiness in life. ([17:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1075) [18:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1080))

**Design science research framework (as Chris used it)** ([06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=413) [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=473))

1. Assess the problem
2. Define the problem
3. Look at various options to improve it
4. Test those options

**Lessons**

- Chris suggests leaders help direct reports understand their purpose and how it aligns with the organisation's purpose. ([13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=789) [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=920))
- Chris argues newly appointed managers, often promoted for technical skill, should be trained in the relationship side of leading a team. ([16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=972) [16:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=974) [17:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1030))
- In uncertain times, Chris advises leaders to admit they lack all the answers, lay out scenarios, and commit to helping staff through whatever happens. ([23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1414) [23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1414) [24:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1444))
- Chris describes learning to catch the pause between stimulus and response and choosing a different reaction. ([20:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1223) [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1234) [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1264))
- Chris says the most valuable lesson of his EMBA was that understanding organisations requires understanding yourself. ([02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=162) [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=166))

**Who it's for:** Managers, team leaders and HR or people professionals who want evidence on what makes employees happy at work, and prospective EMBA students or researchers interested in phenomenology and design science as qualitative research methods.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Chris graduated in engineering from UCT in 2005 and worked 13 years with the same company. ([01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=60) [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=89))
- The dissertation title was Improving Happiness at Work, What Leaders Can Do and Why They Should Do It. ([04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=296))
- Chris conducted about twenty-two interviews, with each person describing two to four experiences. ([11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=663))
- Chris identified around seven human emotions and about 20 types of experiences contributing to them. ([12:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=768))
- Chris ran his literature review throughout the six months he spent writing the paper. ([05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=312))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Does paying people more make them happier at work?**
A: According to Chris's interviews, no. Nobody described a raise or promotion as a happy moment; rewards mattered as recognition. Where people were unhappy, pay did not matter, and some left for lower-paying jobs or no job. ([12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=736) [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=764) [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=821))

**Q: What is the biggest driver of happiness at work?**
A: Chris found purpose and authenticity were the most dominant: people whose purpose aligned with the company's purpose were more motivated and happier. ([13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=789) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1314))

**Q: How much does a manager affect employee happiness?**
A: Chris says the direct relationship between a manager and their reports is crucially important and can overshadow unhappiness with other factors. Petro adds the saying that people leave managers, not organisations. ([15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=907) [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=920) [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=938))

**Q: What makes employees most unhappy at work?**
A: Chris found uncertainty behind almost all unhappy experiences described. He advises leaders to be upfront, honest and transparent even about unpleasant news. ([22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1345) [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1354))

**Q: What is the difference between eudaimonic and hedonic happiness?**
A: Chris describes eudaimonic happiness as a continuous journey of realising your talents and using them for the greater good. Hedonic happiness is linked to immediate pleasure and satisfaction. ([05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=345))

**Q: How should leaders communicate when the future is uncertain?**
A: Chris says leaders need not have all the answers. They should be confident there is a way out, explain what they are preparing for in each scenario, and promise to help people through it. ([23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1414) [24:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1444))

**Q: What research methods did Chris use to study happiness at work?**
A: He used a design science framework: assess and define the problem, consider options, test them. He added phenomenology, interviewing about twenty-two people about happy and unhappy work experiences. ([06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=413) [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=473) [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=496) [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=663))

**Q: Why is it good business to invest in employee happiness?**
A: Chris says the literature, confirmed by his interviews, shows happy employees are more motivated. They are absent less, stay longer and go out of their way for the organisation. ([11:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=674) [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=695))


### Passage: The family dinner that sparked the research topic [03:26–04:53, 335 words]

Note (AI): Chris explains the personal observation of frustrated professionals that drove both his EMBA and his choice of happiness at work as a research topic.

Chris Smith, guest [03:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=206):
> So I, I think I may have told you the story before. I went to dinner once, probably about eight years ago or nine years ago when I was in Joburg with staying with some family, and the rest of the family at the table and I, all discussing our work, it just hit me suddenly that all of us were doing a career that we'd studied for, that we wanted to be doing. You know, we were accountants and In insurance, and I was an engineer, and we were all working for companies that were making a bit of a difference. You know, no one was doing anything terrible. The companies weren't unethical. And we each had a fair bit of autonomy in our, in our jobs. We weren't at the lowest rung. And yet we were all incredibly frustrated by our organization. We all wanted to see our organizations do better. And yet we all felt misheard or, you know, not understood, and just frustrated in, in what we were doing. And it just struck me that surely there must be a better way for employees to feel, not only for ourselves that we, you know, in regards to the dinner, we're not griping about our job, but also for organizations. Surely we would be better in our organizations, more effective and more motivated if we were feeling positive about it instead of seeing all this negativity. So that is actually one of the things, that also one of the factors that made me want to do the EMBA was, you know, is there a way to make organizations better, whether it's my current one or, or other ones? and then, you know, I was When it came to my study topic, they said, choose something close to your heart. And so I was a little bit worried that I was veering into sociology, but I, I stuck with it and, and definitely I think it's, it's, been a, an interesting business topic.


### Passage: Design science and phenomenology as research method [06:53–08:54, 367 words]

Note (AI): Explains how Chris combined Herbert Simon's design science with phenomenology to study individual experiences of happiness at work.

Chris Smith, guest [06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=413):
> So I, I was struck during the course, you, you mentioned other things that came out during the course, and, and I'm dancing a little bit around in my answers, but There were so many things that popped up during the course that I wanted to explore further, and, one of those was design science, which is kind of based on the premise that the world consists of natural, phenomena and artificial elements, which are created or designed by humans. And an artificial element can be made up of natural parts, so like, Kirstenbosch National Botanical Garden in Cape Town is made up of natural plants and trees, but the design of it is, is human. It's laid out by humans, with a particular design. So the science of the artificial world, which was introduced, by Herbert Simon, says that, you know, we can, it's human designed, and so humans can improve it. And I see organizations as that, you know, humans create organizations, and therefore humans can improve organizations. So I started with the design science framework, which Is a fairly broad framework. It's not a very tight research methodology, but it gives a, an outline of kind of assessing the problem, defining the problem, and then looking at various options to improve it, and then testing those options. So when I started with the interviews, I realized that this was an incredibly, human phenomenon that I was trying to study this happiness, and really the definition of happiness that mattered for each interview was the individual's understanding of happiness. And so I decided to use a, a, an approach called phenomenology, which is a bit of a philosophy and a research methodology, and it entails interviewing people or interviewing texts and trying to understand the, the real essence of an experience, that occurs before somebody interprets it and, and describes it, which is difficult because you're trying to understand that through the interpretation and the description of the, the individual that has described it. But basically through the interviews then, I wanted to understand the real life happenings at work that made people feel happy or feel unhappy, and, so that those could be repeated.


### Passage: Core findings from twenty-two interviews [11:03–14:04, 560 words]

Note (AI): The main findings: interviews matched the literature, eudaimonic over hedonic experiences, purpose alignment, and money not compensating for unhappiness.

Chris Smith, guest [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=663):
> And I did about twenty-two interviews, each person described sort of two to four experiences, happy and unhappy. And what was amazing for me was how their personal accounts matched the literature. So the literature said to me that happy employees are more motivated. they are absent less. They want to stay with the organization more. They'll go out of their way to work more for the organization. money becomes less important, you know, financial reward. And I found exactly that in the interviews through very personal, descriptions. So one interviewee said to me, you know, in a previous job where they weren't very happy, they would take the odd sick day when they weren't quite sick. You know, and that's absenteeism in a very personal human expression. And, and she said, you know, in her job now, she will work on weekends, without being paid. She just wants to see the organization succeed. So that was, the, one of the most, amazing things or one of the most sort of beneficial things, I think, for my research was to, to prove that although I'm looking at human, employee happiness, it really does have better benefits to organizations and leaders should invest in it. And then the other interesting thing was how of those, say, eighty or a hundred experiences that were described, Every single one of them was a more eudaimonica type experience than a hedonic happiness. So nobody told me that they were happy one day when they got a huge raise or when they got a big promotion. Some people did say to me that they were happy that their company gives raises, incrementally, and bases it on their, their achievements during that quarter or during that, half a year. So, yeah, it wasn't the financial, the financial reward didn't make them happy for the financial sake, it was for the recognition. So I came up with around seven human emotions that we want to have met and about 20 odd sort of experiences, type of experiences that contribute to those emotions. And, the, probably the biggest emotion or most, the, the emotion that was affected most and affected happiness most was purpose and authenticity. Where people, again, tied to your demonic experience of happiness, where people felt that their purpose was aligned with the company's purpose, and that what they were doing each day was aligned with that purpose and, and furthering the interests of the company. they were much more motivated at work, they were much happier at work. They, they got an additional level of happiness beyond just doing a good job, and enjoying the, the parts of the job. And some of the other, there were so many insights, we could spend a few hours talking about this, this, this topic. But, another one was how, where people are unhappy, it doesn't actually matter how much money you, you pay them. people that I spoke to left jobs to go to lower-paying jobs, they left jobs to go to no job, they moved back in with their parents because they didn't have a job, and they just couldn't handle being unhappy at work. So I think those were two of the, the, the most amazing, things, but I'll, I'll come back to some more later if I, if they come back to me.


### Passage: Why new managers need training in the soft side [16:12–18:04, 356 words]

Note (AI): Chris argues that promoted technical experts are rarely trained in relationships, and sets out newer managers as his entry point for applying the research.

Chris Smith, guest [16:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=972):
> So I'm thinking that, you know, many organizations, leaders kind of are just chosen from individuals within the organization, not necessarily based on leadership capability or leadership skills, but because they've either been there longest or because they're the best accountant or best engineer. And often those people are put in a position where they are now managing a team, and then that's it. And, you know, what the company often cares about is the performance of that team, as accountants or as engineers, and they don't look at the soft side. And what came out, through what I've spoken about, through the eudaimonic experiences that people spoke about, through the actions of the leaders, through that purpose, is that it goes beyond the, you know, the day-to-day tasks of accountants or lawyers and how they do the job, the relationships they form at work while they're doing the job become incredibly important. And so leaders, when they're put in that position, need to be trained on how to develop that, and often I feel they don't. So while I'd like to talk immediately to CEOs and change massive organizations, I think the first entry point for me is looking at, recent managers and training them on just making them aware, yeah, there are things that I really wasn't aware of that affect people's happiness at work. that I became aware of through this, that I can teach people and help them to engage with their, direct reports or employees or team members, more effectively, understand them better, and help them to be better employees. You mentioned, about how leaders have an impact on life, and, you know, it's also always struck me, you know, for, for years we know we spend most of our waking hours at work, and what happens at work, yeah, we take home. We're, we're not robots. And so if, if you have a bad day at work, you take it home on your family, to your kids, to your, to your partner. and so by improving people's happiness at work, we actually really can be improving people's happiness in life.


### Passage: Mediating emotions and leading through uncertainty [21:22–24:15, 584 words]

Note (AI): Lists the emotions employees seek, identifies uncertainty as the main driver of unhappiness, and describes how leaders can communicate honestly when outcomes are unclear.

Chris Smith, guest [21:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1282):
> So I think one thing I just wanted to mention was when we were discussing Some of the findings, and I was overwhelmed with a couple of them, like the fact that people really remember the, the big long-term experiences, eudaimonic happiness rather than hedonic immediate pleasure, and the power of purpose in their lives and the power of leaders. I think one of the biggest, sort of interesting findings that came out of the study was that we've got these, what I'd labeled, mediating emotions, which is what people are kind of seeking to, to meet. And so those I found were, they want authenticity, in themselves and in their leaders. They detect very quickly if a leader is, or an organization is not authentic, and they want purpose, as, as I mentioned. And then they also, they want to feel supported. they want to feel trusted by their, their superiors and by their organizations. they want to feel valued, and, they want to feel appreciated. There was an opportunity for growth, not just in their career, but in their personal sort of skills, and development as well. And then the one thing that really caused unhappiness across almost all the unhappy experiences that, that were described to me was uncertainty. People don't like uncertainty. And so as leaders, even if there's something unpleasant, if we can be upfront about it, And honest and transparent with, with our organizations, with our employees, with our suppliers, customers, everyone, then really that can remove a lot of unhappiness. So that is, that was for me quite interesting.

Petro du Pisani, host [22:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1370):
> Yeah, I mean, in the last two years have been very uncertain. So how do you remain or provide some sort of certainty in an environment in a world that's really uncertain at this point in time? Although I don't think it's going to get any more certain going into the future. it's sort of probably creating those little islands of sanity that Chris Breen talked about, you know, within a very, very uncertain world, how do we create some sort of island of sanity within the organization that we're working in so that people can feel valued and, and purposeful, in what they're doing?

Chris Smith, guest [23:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1403):
> I, I think so. I think as, as leaders, If, if we can provide confidence in uncertainty and also help, and I think that's something that leaders have actually been learning, that, that, yeah, the world has been changing the last two years and showing that leaders don't, don't need to be right all the time. They don't need to have all the answers all the time. But if they can be confident that there will be a way out of this, that they are working to find a way out of this and with the, with the team members to find a way out of it, and saying that it's okay to be a bit uncertain, to be anxious in the uncertainty, that is natural. And because I think that what happens with anxiety and uncertainty is it becomes a downward spiral as well, and then you, you kind of get lost. And so if you just have somebody saying, we're not certain, it could go either way, this is what we're preparing for in case it goes this way, this is what we're looking at in case it goes that way, and whatever way it goes, we will help you through it. I think that's all we as leaders can do.


### Quotes

> "in the context of COVID, it, it was a nice almost distraction, you know, to something that was kind of constant as the rest of the world was changing and work was in flux. there were deadlines that were still there, there were assignments that had to be done"
> — Chris Smith, guest · [02:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=124)

> "we need to understand ourselves if we want to understand organizations and have influence in organizations."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [02:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=166)

> "humans create organizations, and therefore humans can improve organizations."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=464)

> "there are things that we almost can't experience because we don't have the words to explain what we're experiencing."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [10:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=603)

> "the financial reward didn't make them happy for the financial sake, it was for the recognition."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=764)

> "where people are unhappy, it doesn't actually matter how much money you, you pay them."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=821)

> "people don't leave organizations, they leave their managers."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=940)

> "by improving people's happiness at work, we actually really can be improving people's happiness in life."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [18:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1080)

> "between a stimulus and response, there's a pause, and in that pause lies our opportunity to choose our response, and in that choice lies our opportunity for growth."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [20:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1234)

> "the one thing that really caused unhappiness across almost all the unhappy experiences that, that were described to me was uncertainty."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1345)

> "leaders don't, don't need to be right all the time. They don't need to have all the answers all the time."
> — Chris Smith, guest · [23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1414)

> "what this thesis did was solidify for me my purpose, and, as I found in my interviews, people are happier when they have a purpose, when they, when they know their purpose, and when they're working in alignment to that purpose"
> — Chris Smith, guest · [24:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1466)


### Claims

> "I am an engineer by training. I studied at UCT, graduated in 2005. And since then, I've worked for one, company that's gone through a couple of different owners."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [01:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=60)

> "I'd been in with the same company for 13 years, and I needed to either, if I was going to stay with the company, be able to bring in some new ideas or take new ideas elsewhere and see what else was out there."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=89)

> "but I think that's, that's really the, the most valuable lessons I got out of it was, yeah, we need to understand ourselves if we want to understand organizations and have influence in organizations."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [02:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=162)

> "And yet we were all incredibly frustrated by our organization. We all wanted to see our organizations do better. And yet we all felt misheard or, you know, not understood, and just frustrated in, in what we were doing."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [03:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=239)

> "Surely we would be better in our organizations, more effective and more motivated if we were feeling positive about it instead of seeing all this negativity."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [04:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=261)

> "My title was ultimately Improving Happiness at Work, What Leaders Can Do and Why They Should Do It."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [04:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=296)

> "So I did literature review throughout the whole assignment, through the six months that I was putting the paper together."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Phenomenology research methods · [05:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=312)

> "Eudaimic, eudaimonic happiness, which is where you see happiness as like an end goal of a continuous journey, potentially a life journey, of realizing what are your talents and how can you use them most effectively to the greater good. And then hedonic happiness, which is more linked to immediate pleasure and immediate satisfaction."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [05:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=345)

> "a lot of research is focused on the negative sort of feelings, in health and it in the workplace. And then when they started looking at positive feelings at work, they were more interested in the positive outcomes, so engagement, job satisfaction, things that really matter more to the company,"
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [06:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=381)

> "So the science of the artificial world, which was introduced, by Herbert Simon, says that, you know, we can, it's human designed, and so humans can improve it. And I see organizations as that, you know, humans create organizations, and therefore humans can improve organizations."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Phenomenology research methods · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=452)

> "It's not a very tight research methodology, but it gives a, an outline of kind of assessing the problem, defining the problem, and then looking at various options to improve it, and then testing those options."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Phenomenology research methods · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=473)

> "And so I decided to use a, a, an approach called phenomenology, which is a bit of a philosophy and a research methodology, and it entails interviewing people or interviewing texts and trying to understand the, the real essence of an experience,"
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Phenomenology research methods · [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=496)

> "that, you know, there are things that we almost can't experience because we don't have the words to explain what we're experiencing."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Phenomenology research methods · [10:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=603)

> "And I did about twenty-two interviews, each person described sort of two to four experiences, happy and unhappy. And what was amazing for me was how their personal accounts matched the literature."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=663)

> "So the literature said to me that happy employees are more motivated. they are absent less. They want to stay with the organization more. They'll go out of their way to work more for the organization. money becomes less important, you know, financial reward."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [11:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=674)

> "So one interviewee said to me, you know, in a previous job where they weren't very happy, they would take the odd sick day when they weren't quite sick. You know, and that's absenteeism in a very personal human expression."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [11:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=695)

> "Every single one of them was a more eudaimonica type experience than a hedonic happiness. So nobody told me that they were happy one day when they got a huge raise or when they got a big promotion."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=736)

> "the financial reward didn't make them happy for the financial sake, it was for the recognition."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [12:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=764)

> "So I came up with around seven human emotions that we want to have met and about 20 odd sort of experiences, type of experiences that contribute to those emotions."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [12:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=768)

> "Where people, again, tied to your demonic experience of happiness, where people felt that their purpose was aligned with the company's purpose, and that what they were doing each day was aligned with that purpose and, and furthering the interests of the company. they were much more motivated at work, they were much happier at work."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Purpose and authenticity · [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=789)

> "where people are unhappy, it doesn't actually matter how much money you, you pay them. people that I spoke to left jobs to go to lower-paying jobs, they left jobs to go to no job, they moved back in with their parents because they didn't have a job,"
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=821)

> "particularly that direct relationship between a, a manager or a team leader and their direct reports is crucially important. it can overshadow unhappiness with other factors of the organization or other people."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leadership and direct reports · [15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=907)

> "A leader is, is really, can be very effective in helping employees understand what their purpose is and how it aligns with the organization."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leadership and direct reports · [15:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=920)

> "I think I read it somewhere that people don't leave organizations, they leave their managers."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leadership and direct reports · [15:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=938)

> "many organizations, leaders kind of are just chosen from individuals within the organization, not necessarily based on leadership capability or leadership skills, but because they've either been there longest or because they're the best accountant or best engineer."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leadership and direct reports · [16:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=974)

> "So while I'd like to talk immediately to CEOs and change massive organizations, I think the first entry point for me is looking at, recent managers and training them on just making them aware,"
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leadership and direct reports · [17:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1030)

> "if you have a bad day at work, you take it home on your family, to your kids, to your, to your partner. and so by improving people's happiness at work, we actually really can be improving people's happiness in life."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [17:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1075)

> "It's really made me question how I experience things. I mean, really up to a deep level, and it's almost provoked a bit of anxiety sometimes because the world that I was kind of existing in and operating in is not the real world."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1118)

> "I think, but one of the messages that came through for me quite strongly as a result of the, the course is the whole concept around hinge moments."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: EMBA learning journey · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1187)

> "one of the quotes that I most remember ever writing down was a quote by Viktor Frankl that Chris Breen, mentioned, which was about the hinge moments. About how between a stimulus and response, there's a pause, and in that pause lies our opportunity to choose our response, and in that choice lies our opportunity for growth."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [20:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1223)

> "So, you know, learning to recognize those moments and then having the, the will to, to change my response."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: EMBA learning journey · [21:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1264)

> "they want authenticity, in themselves and in their leaders. They detect very quickly if a leader is, or an organization is not authentic, and they want purpose, as, as I mentioned."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Purpose and authenticity · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1314)

> "And then the one thing that really caused unhappiness across almost all the unhappy experiences that, that were described to me was uncertainty. People don't like uncertainty."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leading through uncertainty · [22:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1345)

> "And so as leaders, even if there's something unpleasant, if we can be upfront about it, And honest and transparent with, with our organizations, with our employees, with our suppliers, customers, everyone, then really that can remove a lot of unhappiness."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leading through uncertainty · [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1354)

> "how do we create some sort of island of sanity within the organization that we're working in so that people can feel valued and, and purposeful, in what they're doing?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leading through uncertainty · [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1392)

> "showing that leaders don't, don't need to be right all the time. They don't need to have all the answers all the time. But if they can be confident that there will be a way out of this,"
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leading through uncertainty · [23:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1414)

> "we're not certain, it could go either way, this is what we're preparing for in case it goes this way, this is what we're looking at in case it goes that way, and whatever way it goes, we will help you through it."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Leading through uncertainty · [24:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1444)

> "I think that what this thesis did was solidify for me my purpose, and, as I found in my interviews, people are happier when they have a purpose,"
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Purpose and authenticity · [24:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1465)

> "And I think just by engaging with others, we can get a lot more of that positivity and happiness back in our lives."
> — Chris Smith, guest · topic: Happiness at work · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1194287_high.mp3#t=1502)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student In this episode Petro speaks to fellow UCT EMBA student, Chris Smith (Freelance Consultant in Project and Business Management). Over the past two years (2020-2021) we have been working towards our Executive MBAs through the University of Cape Town's Graduate Business School. With classes moving on-line due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to hear about their research. In this podcast I ask Chris about his research, which focused on improving happiness at work, what leaders can do...and why they should do it. Chris tells me more about why he chose this topic, how he did the research and what his major findings were. He also shares how this research changed him and the way he thinks about finding happiness at work. Chris found that happiness at work is not necessarily based on rewards and financial gain, but that the most dominant drivers for happiness were purpose and authenticity. He also found that leaders have an important part to play in helping their direct reports find purpose and happiness at work. Find out more about UCT's Graduate School of Business EMBA programme here: � Connect with Chris Smith � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #019 Gordon Wilson | Purpose as a driver for human behaviour

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/019-purpose-as-a-driver-for-human/
- Date: 2022-04-04 (as at 2022-04-04)
- Guest: Gordon Wilson
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Purpose as a driver of behaviour, Executive MBA experience, Research methodology, Profit and purpose balance, Leadership and purpose, Putting purpose into practice, Personal transformation
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/1171404
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3

### About the guest: Gordon Wilson

- Achievement Awards Group · Cape Town
- Grew up in Durban and moved to the Cape about 10 years ago; works in the human performance improvement industry at Achievement Awards Group; UCT EMBA student whose research focused on purpose as a driver for human behaviour.

In their own words:

> "I grew up in Durban most of my life there and, moved down to the Cape about 10 years ago in pursuit of, corporate challenges, which is where I find myself today." [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=64)

> "I work in the human performance improvement industry for a company called Achievement Awards Group. Where we, we bring the, the science and the art of, business and people performance together." [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=97)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro talks with fellow UCT EMBA student Gordon Wilson, who works in the human performance improvement industry at Achievement Awards Group, about his research project on purpose as a driver of human behaviour from a leadership perspective. Gordon explains how the topic emerged from a business model innovation session, the interpretivist action research approach he used with 24 leader interviews, his four major findings, and practical actions at organisational, leader and HR levels. He also reflects on how the EMBA changed his way of working and recommends the programme.

**Key ideas**

- Gordon's research found purpose is important, citing literature linking purposeful people to better health, happiness, longevity and even higher earnings. ([18:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1090) [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1172) [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1182))
- Gordon argues purpose is an intrinsic motivator: the drive to serve something bigger than oneself is a powerful motivational force. ([20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1207))
- Gordon holds that organisations can and should focus on profit and purpose equally, and that profit-only firms may hold themselves back. ([17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1061) [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1255) [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1281) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314))
- Gordon frames leaders as stewards of an organisation's purpose, responsible for creating an environment where people's psychological needs can flourish. ([22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1351) [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1367))
- From his 24 interviews, Gordon found personal and corporate purpose do not always align; alignment may exist at a functional level instead. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507) [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1568))
- Gordon proposes putting purpose into practice at three levels: organisational, leader and HR. ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855))
- Gordon describes the research itself acting as a change process in his company, leading his CEO to request a purpose communication. ([31:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1919) [32:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1943))

**Putting purpose into practice at three levels** ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1755) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1807) [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855))

1. Organisational level: elevate purpose to the same level as profit and craft a purpose statement that resonates and engages.
2. Organisational level: secure buy-in at board and executive level and align strategy with purpose.
3. Leader level: build emotional connection with purpose, show people they matter and how they fit the bigger picture.
4. Leader level: lead by example through behavioural integrity and practise strategy with authenticity.
5. HR level: revisit hiring, recruiting, development plans and career paths to align with purpose and values.

**Lessons**

- Gordon advises that purpose will not take hold among staff unless board and executive leaders genuinely buy into it. ([27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1682))
- Gordon suggests leaders make people feel seen, heard and understood, and show how daily tasks connect to the bigger picture. ([29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1755) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790))
- Petro's example shows a company purpose phrased so each employee can test their own work against it. ([23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1432))
- Gordon's supervisor advised starting research without a fixed answer and seeing where it leads. ([17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1031))
- Gordon says he now carves out time to improve himself and avoids the always-busy hamster wheel. ([33:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2000) [34:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2080) [34:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2091) [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2108))

**Who it's for:** Leaders, HR practitioners and culture or change professionals interested in making organisational purpose practical, and prospective Executive MBA students curious about the UCT GSB research experience.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Gordon interviewed twenty-four leaders at his organisation for his research. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507))
- Gordon moved from Durban to the Cape about 10 years ago. ([01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=64))
- Gordon's EMBA cohort had about seventy other people. ([36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2177))
- Petro's mining company states its purpose as reimagining mining to improve people's lives. ([23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1432))
- Gordon's action proposals cover three levels: organisational, leader and human resources. ([27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Does having a sense of purpose actually make people healthier or more successful?**
A: Gordon says the literature he reviewed indicates purposeful people are healthier, happier, live longer, fulfil their potential and can earn more, citing one study where purpose-driven people earned more a decade later. ([19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1172) [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1182))

**Q: Should companies prioritise profit or purpose?**
A: Gordon argues both, equally: profit enables an organisation to expand its purpose, and companies focusing solely on profit may be holding themselves back. ([21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1281) [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314))

**Q: Do employees need to share their company's purpose to find meaning at work?**
A: Gordon's interviews with 24 leaders suggested not always; people may find personal purpose in their work with alignment only at a functional level. Leaders should still try, and ensure people leave better off. ([25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507) [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1568))

**Q: How can an organisation turn a purpose statement into daily practice?**
A: Gordon proposes actions at organisational, leader and HR levels, including board buy-in, aligning strategy, leaders showing people they matter, behavioural integrity, and aligning hiring and career paths. ([27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626) [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629) [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677) [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855))

**Q: What research method suits studying something subjective like purpose?**
A: Gordon used interpretivism, action research to generate data and thematic analysis to surface patterns, valuing that action research let him be participant and observer. ([12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=778) [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=838) [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=869) [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=973))

**Q: What role do leaders play in organisational purpose?**
A: Gordon describes leaders as stewards of purpose who create the environment where people's psychological needs flourish, lead by example and help people see how they fit the bigger picture. ([22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1351) [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1367) [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790) [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1807))

**Q: Is the UCT Executive MBA worth doing?**
A: Gordon says absolutely, recommending it despite the intensity; he values its focus on viewing the world through a different lens and on personal transformation. ([03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=231) [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=300) [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2177) [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2212))


### Passage: How purpose became Gordon's research topic [06:54–09:15, 441 words]

Note (AI): Shows how a business model innovation session revealed a purpose problem in his organisation and led to a purpose-centric culture model and the research topic.

Gordon Wilson, guest [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=414):
> so into the good stuff. So let me start with the end in mind. So my title for my, my research project, ended up being Purpose as a Driver of Human Behavior, a Leadership Perspective. You know, there's a, a wonderful quote by George Bernard Shaw, where he said that this is the true joy in life, the being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one. So for me personally, purpose has always resonated. You know, I've always felt that I'm part of something bigger than myself. felt that I'm here on this earth to make a positive difference in the lives of people. And, it was quite amazing, actually, in that purpose as a phenomenon started, started appearing, like, here and there in my position papers, especially in position paper four, which focused on business model innovation as integrative thinking practice. And you'll remember it well. I mean, we had to conduct those business model innovation sessions, and yeah, it was quite a nerve-wracking thing in the beginning, but it was in that, in that BMI session itself, you know, we were in the auditorium at my, at my office, and, we found that the problem we were actually trying to solve was, was one of purpose, and that the organization was not a purposeful or a purpose-driven organization. And it was quite a profound thing to, it was like a, a hard moment, almost. And it led to multiple questions, you know, and I started asking, all right, well, how do we activate our newly articulated purpose statement? Or, you know, how do we ensure that, that work is meaningful and that our people Or understand the meaning behind their work. And, you know, there was just so many questions, you know, like how do we nudge our people forward to act on our mission and our values, and, and how do we make sure that our purpose, you know, our corporate reason for existence is infused into, into every aspect of the business? So, yeah, it was, it was really thought-provoking stuff, and, you know, I don't want to get sidetracked on that position paper, but the output was a new purpose-centric model of organizational culture, which would shift an organization from, say, a hierarchical culture towards an, an entrepreneurial culture of, you know, purposeful action, putting people at the center, greater autonomy, and empowerment. So, yeah, I mean, I, I guess you, you might say that purpose grabbed my attention there, you know. Fast forward a, a few months later, and, I have my research topic, Purpose as a Driver of Human Behavior.


### Passage: Interpretivism, action research and thematic analysis [12:58–14:39, 298 words]

Note (AI): Explains the research paradigm and methods chosen and why they suit a subjective phenomenon like purpose.

Gordon Wilson, guest [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=778):
> So, I mean, research methodology, I won't chat about it too much, but I mean, you'll remember from block five, in, in those two weeks, they just bombarded us with all these different types of approaches to our research, and it was, it was quite hectic, actually. You know, there was just so many different, these phrases getting thrown at us, and brief explanations, and, and like, I think I finished that period quite confused, actually. But in the end, and a bit of help with my supervisor, I, the, the research paradigm that I adopted was interpretivism, in that, and I'll quote, I'll quote Blakey here, interpretives, Interpretivists believe that social reality is the product of its inhabitants. It is a world interpreted by the meanings that people create and recreate as a necessary part of their daily life. So from a philosophical standpoint, this was perfect, you know, because purpose is a, is a social construct that people create their own meaning, you know, specifically to them, it's subjective of what purpose means to them. So back to my, my research methodology. So within this paradigm of interpretivism, I adopted action research to generate data and meaning about the phenomenon of purpose, and then I used thematic analysis to analyze the data, and, I I hadn't used thematic analysis before, so it was really interesting, and my supervisor, Dr. Jean Bolton, she suggested it, and it worked out really well. So thematic analysis is a whole coding process where you, you code all your, your data extracts from all your qualitative interviews, but this thematic analysis actually allows you to surface repeated patterns and connect the themes that are, that are pulling through from those patterns in the data. So it was a lot of fun.


### Passage: Findings one and two: purpose matters and motivates [18:10–20:28, 375 words]

Note (AI): Sets out the first two research findings, including cited evidence linking purpose to health, longevity and earnings.

Gordon Wilson, guest [18:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1090):
> So there were multiple findings, and I was trying to think, you know, beforehand, knowing that we were going to chat, you know, how do I, how do I wrap them up? And I think I'll just chat about the four major outcomes that the research produced. So firstly, purpose is important. You know, that was my primary research question was, you know, is purpose important? What do we do with that knowledge? So the first major outcome was, was purpose is important. So as a reason for being, or a driving force, a guiding star, the reason why we exist, a central reference point, you know, or even that, that thing that gets you out of bed in the morning, you know, which, whichever way you look at it, purpose is important. So this phenomenon of purpose as a, as an aspirational, orientational driving force, a reason for being in, in service of a, of a cause much greater than oneself, you know, it was just overwhelmingly evident in the research, you know. In fact, My findings highlighted the correlation, as you mentioned right in the beginning, you know, the correlation between living a purposeful life and the associated positive psychological and physical well-being effects. It's pretty awesome, actually. There's many studies, and I worked through so many different works of literature and bodies of knowledge, you know, which indicate that purposeful people are healthier, they're happier, they tend to live longer, they tend to fulfill their potential, and they can even achieve and earn more. There was this one brilliant study that looked at purpose-driven people ten years apart versus non-purpose-driven people. They found that these guys actually earned more a decade later than people who weren't purpose-driven. So, I mean, there's so many studies, and there's starting to be more and more studies into purpose both at a corporate level as well as an academic level, which is fantastic. Secondly, so my second major finding was that purpose is an intrinsic motivator. So purpose as the, the underlying drive to do something because it is in service of something bigger than ourselves, or because it's interesting, or because it matters to us personally, that's an incredibly powerful motivational force for human beings.


### Passage: Findings three and four: profit balance and leaders' role [20:55–23:14, 399 words]

Note (AI): Argues organisations should weigh profit and purpose equally and frames leaders as stewards of purpose.

Gordon Wilson, guest [20:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1255):
> The third major finding from my research was that organizations need to balance their focus. So, you know, you remember Milton, Milton Friedman, the economist back in the seventies, he said that, you know, the, the purpose of a business is to make profit, but, you know, that's not true anymore. Sure, purpose, I mean, businesses need profit, but purpose is so important, so organizations need to balance their focus. My research indicated that organizations can and should focus on both profit and purpose equally, you know, because profit actually is the primary driver which enables an organization to affect and expand its purpose in the wider ecology in society. So it really is a, a both-and situation. You know, it's, organizations can focus on both. They can and they should. What is even more interesting, actually, is that companies that focus solely on profit, and this was just Showed up in a few bits of literature that I read is that, you know, companies that focus solely on profit at the expense of, of purpose, they could in fact actually be holding themselves back. You know, they, they are actually limiting the impact they could have as an organization, and, you know, they could actually never reach their full potential as an organization in the form of, you know, corporate flourishment. Finally, the, the fourth major finding of my research was that, that leaders play a significant role. So, you know, leaders have agency, they can and should choose a, a virtue ethics approach to modern day business. there was this fantastic research I found, and I, I can't remember who it was by at the moment, but they, they spoke to leaders as being the stewards of an organization's purpose, and as such, as stewards of an organization's purpose, leaders play a significant role in that leader-follower relationship. So, you know, at the end of the day, Key findings was that, you know, leaders are, are actually responsible for creating the environment in which the, the inherent psychological needs of people can flourish. and through this, this enabling of, of individual expression to, to blossom, you know, in service of, of, of the greater good, leaders are, are actually doing good, you know, they're leading by example, and at the same time, they need to purposely frame a strategic approach that meets the needs of all stakeholders.


### Passage: Putting purpose into practice at organisation and leader level [27:06–29:44, 461 words]

Note (AI): Gives the practical actions arising from the research: board buy-in, strategy alignment, emotional connection and making people feel they matter.

Gordon Wilson, guest [27:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1626):
> So I let my mind wander a bit, and, I came up with actions. So that could be implemented by organizations to help them put purpose into practice at, three different levels. You know, these were organizational level, leader level, and human resources level. And I won't talk too long, but I'll just touch quickly, you know, just the high-level points at each of those three levels. So, you know, if we are wanting to put purpose into practice at an organizational level, the, the organization needs to elevate the focus on purpose to the same level as profit. The organizations need to, they need to craft and articulate a purpose statement that resonates and engages. I mean, you guys have done that brilliantly at your organization. What's really important as well is that organizations need to ensure that there is buy-in. You need buy-in at board level and executive level to, to the purpose of the organization, because if it's not encapsulated in the hearts and minds of our leaders, it's never going to take hold in the hearts of our people. And, and this was another very interesting one is that at organizational level, we need to make sure that, that strategy, our strategy as an organization is aligned with our purpose. I mean, it, it seems simple in, in theory, but, you know, in reality, it's not always the case. So at the, at the second level, you know, of putting purpose into practice was looked at leader level. So, so what should leaders be doing? And, the, the first point there I was thinking of is that leaders need to have an emotional connection with the organization's purpose. You can't have leaders who are fulfilling a task-filled role. They don't buy wholeheartedly to what the organization's trying to achieve in the wider ecology. Leaders also need to, they need to foster meaningful connection, you know, with their people. it was, it was one of Adam Grant's papers, it was published in 2012, I think, where he said that leaders play a critical role in managing the meaning that followers make out of their work. So continuing, and there's a few more points at, at leader level, leaders need to show their people that they matter. So they need to make them feel seen, heard, and understood. You know, that's, that's something that any human being wants, is they want to know that they are seen, heard, and understood. And it's important that, that leaders show people that they matter. This was a, a, almost a secondary concept that came up was this concept of mattering, and, there's a whole lot of research actually going into that concept of mattering, that people want to feel that they matter.


### Passage: How the EMBA changed Gordon's way of working [33:20–35:25, 380 words]

Note (AI): Describes concrete changes in his working habits: systemic thinking, intentionality and time set aside for reading and mindfulness.

Gordon Wilson, guest [33:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2000):
> So this MBA, this two-year journey has been amazing, and it's got me, it's got me really excited about the future, to be honest, you know, I'm just so much more aware of the, that there's so much, there's so much available, there's so much to explore, so much more meaningful impact to be affected and, and more value to be created. So it has definitely changed the way I think and I work. I, I just like to think that I'm far more systemic in my thinking, you know, thinking around how the constituent parts interrelate within the whole system, and, you know, what, what the causal impacts of decisions we make in, in isolation, you know, what impact that can have on, on the rest of the system. And, Yeah, you know, the, the entire MBA process, the, the two years, they flew by, to be honest, even though it was so busy and intense and full of pressure, but the whole two-year journey has, has changed the way I work. So I spend, I spend far more time now on improving myself and my craft as I, as I aim to, to increase my mastery, you know, as it relates to my field and my passion, you know, understanding the, the purpose of a human life and how best we can solve business problems, you know, because people, they're at the heart of everything. And I'm also far more intentional, so I'm trying to focus more on producing quality work and not running on the always busy hamster wheel like I used to. I just used to be constantly busy, and it's not a great way to work. You don't produce quality work when you're always just busy running from one thing to the next. So I've adopted an approach to I Carving out a pocket of time during the day to, to read, to practice mindfulness, and to learn, you know, because I've, I've come to understand that I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first. And, you know, perhaps another quote, I love it, but, perhaps it was Leonardo da Vinci that, said it best, you know, when he said that one can have no smaller or greater mastery than mastery of oneself.


### Quotes

> "this is the true joy in life, the being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=430)

> "most of us go to our graves with our music still inside us, unplayed."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=632)

> "each day is a gift and, you, you never know when, When you're going to have your last day."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [12:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=755)

> "all business research is action research. It all leads to action."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=999)

> "And, Jean Bolton, I mean, you know, her lectures were brilliant during our, our time on the course. And with her work into complexity theory and both-and thinking, she was a fantastic sounding board. Throughout my research process."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [17:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1077)

> "companies that focus solely on profit at the expense of, of purpose, they could in fact actually be holding themselves back."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314)

> "if it's not encapsulated in the hearts and minds of our leaders, it's never going to take hold in the hearts of our people."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [28:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1682)

> "Joe Raylan said that sometimes the research itself is a change process, and we started finding that happening. So as I was doing these interviews and I did these 24 qualitative interviews, and I had these reflective sense-making sessions, you know, Intermittently, you know, when I was talking with, with various leaders around the findings"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [31:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1919)

> "You don't produce quality work when you're always just busy running from one thing to the next."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [34:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2091)

> "I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [35:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2109)

> "one can have no smaller or greater mastery than mastery of oneself."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2121)

> "Chris Breen in his sessions, he just smashed our egos, which was beautiful,"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [36:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2200)

> "we also did it during an incredibly difficult time during COVID. It was, it was insane, actually. And it was brilliant how, how the business school just adapted and, and how they just changed their focus. And, you know, we, we made it work in virtual classrooms, which was brilliant."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · [37:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2228)


### Claims

> "I grew up in Durban most of my life there and, moved down to the Cape about 10 years ago in pursuit of, corporate challenges, which is where I find myself today."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Background · [01:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=64)

> "I'm fascinated with human behavior. So specifically around how and why people make decisions and what we can do with that knowledge to better understand, predict, and influence human behavior."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [01:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=79)

> "I work in the human performance improvement industry for a company called Achievement Awards Group. Where we, we bring the, the science and the art of, business and people performance together."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Background · [01:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=97)

> "the EMBA's got a, it's got a far greater focus on, on one's ability to, to view the world through, through a different lens, to conceptualize and to strategize, you know, as opposed to, I find, you know, most traditional MBAs are, they just focus on improving your proficiency in, in functional management."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=231)

> "But for me personally, and this was one of the draw cards to the, the executive MBA, was the softer stuff. So that focus around your personal transformation, your personal and authentic leadership, mindfulness practice, reflexivity, self-mastery,"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [05:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=300)

> "through writing position papers, five, five specific position papers, the things that I wrote in those papers, I'll never forget them, because you spend so many weeks writing and researching and putting it in your own words that it's something that's going to stay with you forever."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA experience · [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=348)

> "it was in that, in that BMI session itself, you know, we were in the auditorium at my, at my office, and, we found that the problem we were actually trying to solve was, was one of purpose, and that the organization was not a purposeful or a purpose-driven organization."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [07:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=469)

> "the output was a new purpose-centric model of organizational culture, which would shift an organization from, say, a hierarchical culture towards an, an entrepreneurial culture of, you know, purposeful action, putting people at the center, greater autonomy, and empowerment."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [08:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=526)

> "I lost my mom last year, you know, so you sort of think, you know, what am I supposed to be doing? You get that whole sense and we lost a lot of people last year as well to COVID."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [11:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=703)

> "So within this paradigm of interpretivism, I adopted action research to generate data and meaning about the phenomenon of purpose, and then I used thematic analysis to analyze the data,"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=838)

> "thematic analysis actually allows you to surface repeated patterns and connect the themes that are, that are pulling through from those patterns in the data."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [14:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=869)

> "no matter what research methodology you choose, it all ends up being the same type of thing. You gather data, you get themes, you group them together, and you discuss the themes."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Research methodology · [14:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=881)

> "I quite enjoyed action research as the, as the approach because it allowed me to be both participant and observer, you know, within the context of my research,"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=973)

> "all business research is action research. It all leads to action. It has to lead to action, otherwise why are you doing it?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Research methodology · [16:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=999)

> "But my supervisor, Jean Bolton, right from the beginning, she said, don't have any ideas of what final answer might be. She said, you know, just approach the research, start the research, and just see where it takes you."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [17:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1031)

> "And what do we do with this knowledge to drive both business health and human flourishing? You know, in my mind, for me, you cannot have one or the other."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Profit and purpose balance · [17:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1061)

> "which indicate that purposeful people are healthier, they're happier, they tend to live longer, they tend to fulfill their potential, and they can even achieve and earn more."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [19:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1172)

> "There was this one brilliant study that looked at purpose-driven people ten years apart versus non-purpose-driven people. They found that these guys actually earned more a decade later than people who weren't purpose-driven."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [19:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1182)

> "Secondly, so my second major finding was that purpose is an intrinsic motivator. So purpose as the, the underlying drive to do something because it is in service of something bigger than ourselves, or because it's interesting, or because it matters to us personally, that's an incredibly powerful motivational force for human beings."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Purpose as a driver of behaviour · [20:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1207)

> "My research indicated that organizations can and should focus on both profit and purpose equally, you know, because profit actually is the primary driver which enables an organization to affect and expand its purpose in the wider ecology in society."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Profit and purpose balance · [21:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1281)

> "companies that focus solely on profit at the expense of, of purpose, they could in fact actually be holding themselves back."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Profit and purpose balance · [21:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1314)

> "they, they spoke to leaders as being the stewards of an organization's purpose, and as such, as stewards of an organization's purpose, leaders play a significant role in that leader-follower relationship."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [22:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1351)

> "leaders are, are actually responsible for creating the environment in which the, the inherent psychological needs of people can flourish."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [22:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1367)

> "So the, the purpose of the company, as stated, is to reimagine mining to improve people's lives, okay? So which, with each and every pers, piece of work that you do, you can go, by doing this piece of work, am I improving people's life?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1432)

> "I interviewed twenty-four leaders at our organization, and, a lot of those findings were that Sometimes there, that there isn't always alignment at a purpose level, but there's alignment at a functional level."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [25:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1507)

> "But as leaders, we should, we should make sure that they leave our organization better off than, than when they started with us."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [26:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1568)

> "I came up with actions. So that could be implemented by organizations to help them put purpose into practice at, three different levels. You know, these were organizational level, leader level, and human resources level."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [27:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1629)

> "the organization needs to elevate the focus on purpose to the same level as profit. The organizations need to, they need to craft and articulate a purpose statement that resonates and engages."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1655)

> "You need buy-in at board level and executive level to, to the purpose of the organization, because if it's not encapsulated in the hearts and minds of our leaders, it's never going to take hold in the hearts of our people."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1677)

> "leaders need to show their people that they matter. So they need to make them feel seen, heard, and understood."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1755)

> "If you, for example, have a call center agent, they need to know that what they're doing on a day-to-day basis, how does that fit into the bigger picture?"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [29:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1790)

> "There was another incredibly interesting thing that came up in the research was this notion of behavioral integrity, and I mean, it sounds fancy, but it's just, it's where your words and your actions align."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Leadership and purpose · [30:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1807)

> "HR needs to, they need to revisit their hiring practices, you know, particularly around leadership and, future leadership hires, you know, to ensure that there is alignment both at a, at a personal level and at a values level."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1855)

> "Joe Raylan said that sometimes the research itself is a change process, and we started finding that happening."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Research methodology · [31:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1919)

> "one of the outcomes was, our CEO asking me to craft a communication to the entire business, to tell them what our purpose is and, and what it means to be a purpose-driven company,"
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Putting purpose into practice · [32:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=1943)

> "I'm trying to focus more on producing quality work and not running on the always busy hamster wheel like I used to."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [34:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2080)

> "I've come to understand that I can't improve the human condition without improving myself first."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2108)

> "I walked in on that first day, and, you know, chest was out, and thought, yeah, I'm the man, you know, executive MBA, and there were like seventy other people, and yeah, I quickly realized that I'm like, like, nothing compared to some of these people."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [36:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2177)

> "so for anyone who, who's wondering whether or not it's worth it, it's absolutely worth doing an MBA. I would recommend it any day of the week."
> — Gordon Wilson, guest · topic: Executive MBA experience · [36:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_1171404_high.mp3#t=2212)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation with a fellow EMBA student. In this episode Petro speaks to fellow UCT EMBA student, Gordon Wilson (Achievement Awards Group) Over the past two years we have been working towards our Executive MBAs through the University of Cape Town's Graduate Business School. With classes moving on-line due to the covid-19 pandemic there wasn't enough time (for me) to connect with fellow students and hear about their research projects. I decided to interview my fellow students to hear about their research. In this podcast I ask Gordon about his research, which focused on how purpose is a driver for human behaviour. Gordon tells me more about why he chose this topic, how he did the research and what his major findings were. He also shares how this research changed him and the way he thinks about purpose. Find out more about Gordon Wilson · Find out more about UCT's EMBA programme · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #018 Sean Lewis | In search of knowledge

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/018-in-search-of-knowledge/
- Date: 2020-07-27 (as at 2020-07-27)
- Guest: Sean Lewis
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Growing up under apartheid, Education and activism, Studying abroad on scholarship, Persistence in pursuing knowledge, Career from teaching to IT, EMBA learning and teaching, Systems thinking at work, Future of work and inequality
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991972
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3

### About the guest: Sean Lewis

- part-time lecturer · UCT GSB
- Past student of the UCT EMBA programme who teaches evidence-based management and systems thinking and balances lecturing with a full-time corporate IT role. Formerly a teacher, and lecturer in English at the University of Western Cape.

In their own words:

> "And I graduated, did a teacher's diploma, higher diploma in education, and then taught for about three and a half years in Cape Town." [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=696)

> "So in 1986, we started a process of creating a teachers' union in the Western Cape, and that teachers' union was called the Western Cape Teachers' Union. So I was intimately involved in that process in the establishment of, of the Western Cape Teachers' Union, or WECTU as it became known. So I served on the, the interim executive committee that led to the founding of WECTU in 1987." [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=776)

> "So I published a monthly newsletter. I think I, that's a monthly newsletter for the two years that I was in the US. I published a monthly newsletter and distributed it electronically to all students, all black South African students in the US, and we arranged a conference." [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1616)

> "so I ended up I ended up at UCT, again, I ended up at UCT working as a, the, my, my official job title was programmer, and I did a little bit of programming." [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1823)

> "even before I went, left the first time, I, I was president of Western Province Volleyball Association, so I became president of Western Province Volleyball." [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1914)

> "So one of the things I did in, in the, in, in Pittsburgh was to, I established, I founded the, the African Students Association in Pittsburgh, where we, and basically what I wanted to do was to provide a community of Africans in Pittsburgh that could welcome Africans whenever they arrived in the, in the, in Pittsburgh" [48:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2884)

> "I lectured in the English department at the University of Western Cape. I taught English language and literature at the University of Western Cape," [49:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2965)

> "So I left public relations to work as an IT project manager, which I did for a while, and then just stayed in the IT, then, and that was kind of my return to IT," [51:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3080)

> "I worked at Vodacom for, at MWeb for a while, for a couple of years, and then I ended up at Vodacom, got recruited, ended up at Vodacom, and I'm still at Vodacom in an IT role." [52:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3136)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Sean Lewis, a part-time lecturer on the UCT EMBA whom she met on her first course. Most of the conversation covers Sean's life story. He grew up on the Cape Flats and was the first in his family to attend university. He became a teacher and union activist and was banned from school premises in 1986. He then studied in the US on scholarship, wrote to 124 universities to find funded study, and moved through lecturing, PR and IT roles. The later part covers his EMBA experience, how he separates corporate and teaching work, how systems thinking informs his job, a book on the precariat, and his hopes for a fairer distribution of wealth.

**Key ideas**

- Sean argues that apartheid-era coloured schools mixed social classes, while today schools are sorted by economic class, which removes an educational experience beyond the classroom. ([05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=320))
- Sean describes being banned from school premises in 1986 as a state attempt to neutralise teacher and student organisation, and says students refused to attend classes until teachers were reinstated. ([14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=856) [14:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=880) [15:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=935) [16:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=969))
- Sean presents persistence and personal presence as how he found funded study: 124 letters, two non-rejections, then visiting Pittsburgh faculty so they would find it harder to say no. ([41:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2468) [42:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2543) [43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2580) [44:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2670))
- Sean says negotiating volleyball unification taught him he could listen carefully and find commonality amid conflict, which led to his Basis for Unity document. ([32:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1976) [34:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2059) [35:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2109) [35:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2157))
- Sean attributes his EMBA turning point to realising he had got cocky and was taking learning for granted, after which he immersed himself fully. ([55:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3332) [56:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3397) [57:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3436) [57:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3468))
- Sean keeps a 'Chinese wall' between corporate work and teaching, using separate computers and cloud spaces, while still applying systems thinking and VSM at work. ([60:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3622) [60:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3645) [61:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3716) [62:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3721))
- Drawing on a book about the precariat, Sean argues that middle-class work is becoming more precarious, citing Naspers retrenching and re-contracting editors. ([67:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4029) [67:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4065))
- Sean hopes the pandemic crisis leads to a greater distribution of wealth, and is researching a cooperative farming estate worked by its residents. ([70:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4215) [71:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4270))

**Lessons**

- Sean's experience suggests that presenting yourself in person can turn a tentative 'we'll consider it' into an offer. ([44:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2670) [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2675))
- Sean warns against coasting after early success: his average module-three mark came from overconfidence and taking learning for granted. ([56:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3397) [57:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3436) [57:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3438))
- Sean advises caring about being satisfied with the work rather than chasing marks. ([57:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3468))
- Sean suggests physically and digitally separating corporate and academic work to avoid getting caught up in email. ([60:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3622) [60:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3645))
- Sean found that in heated negotiations, careful listening and writing down common ground gives parties something to agree on and build from. ([34:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2059) [35:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2109))

**Who it's for:** Listeners interested in South African life under apartheid, first-generation university students, people considering an EMBA or combining a corporate job with teaching, and anyone curious how systems thinking and the precarious future of work look to a practising IT professional and lecturer.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Sean wrote to 124 US universities offering doctoral applied linguistics programmes and received 19 responses, 17 negative. ([42:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2543) [43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2580))
- In 1987 Sean was 25 and had never been on a plane when he left for the US. ([22:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1321))
- Sean served on the interim executive committee that led to the founding of WECTU in 1987. ([12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=776))
- Sean lived on rice for about seven weeks in Pittsburgh while awaiting his visa. ([46:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2803))
- The volleyball unification process produced a unified body called Volleyball South Africa. ([35:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2157))
- According to the host, Sean's LinkedIn lists an executive MBA cum laude and says he was class president. ([55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3307))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Who is Sean Lewis and what does he teach at UCT?**
A: The host says Sean was her EMBA lecturer in evidence-based management and systems methodology. Sean says he works in an IT role at 'Vodacom' and would have preferred to teach integrative thinking, inspired by Roger Martin. ([01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=68) [52:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3136) [58:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3513))

**Q: Why did Sean study drama at UCT?**
A: He says coloured students were required to attend the University of the Western Cape unless their course was not offered there. Drama was not offered, so he took it to get into UCT, and failed it three times. ([10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=647))

**Q: What happened to teachers who organised against apartheid in 1986?**
A: Sean says he and others were served banning orders keeping them off school premises. He sees this as a state attempt to neutralise 'agitators', and says students refused classes until teachers were reinstated. ([14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=856) [14:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=880) [15:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=935) [16:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=969))

**Q: How did Sean get a scholarship to study in the US?**
A: He answered an advert for black South African students. His SAT score was too high for a bachelor's scholarship, so he was offered a master's instead. He accepted it expecting at worst a three-month holiday. ([17:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1072) [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1211) [21:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1297))

**Q: How can you find funded postgraduate study with no money or visa?**
A: Sean wrote to all 124 US universities offering doctoral applied linguistics programmes and received two non-rejections. He then went to Pittsburgh in person to meet faculty, which led to a tuition waiver and a stipend. ([41:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2468) [42:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2543) [43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2580) [44:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2670))

**Q: How did Sean get his EMBA cum laude?**
A: He says he did well in modules one and two, got cocky and received an average mark in module three. After reflecting, he immersed himself fully, working hard and consistently without chasing marks. ([55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3307) [55:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3332) [56:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3397) [57:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3436) [57:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3468))

**Q: How does Sean balance a corporate job with lecturing?**
A: He keeps a 'Chinese wall': separate computers and cloud spaces, corporate work from about seven to five, and academic work after hours and at weekends. ([60:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3622) [60:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3645) [61:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3661))

**Q: What is the precariat?**
A: Sean describes a book arguing that a new class is emerging as middle-class work becomes less stable and secure. He gives Naspers retrenching editors and contracting them back in as an example. ([67:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4029) [67:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4065))

**Q: What is Sean's one message to the world?**
A: That to live our best lives we have to create the best lives for those around us, because we don't live our best lives in isolation. ([72:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4352) [72:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4355))


### Passage: Banned from school premises in 1986 [14:16–17:18, 520 words]

Note (AI): Sean's account of the state banning order, the students' refusal to attend classes, and how losing his income forced him to rethink his life.

Sean Lewis, guest [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=856):
> at the school at which I taught, in 1986, the, Department of Colored Affairs, I can't remember what they were called in 1986 anymore, but essentially the Department of Colored Affairs Banned me from teaching. so they were not just me alone. At my school, there were three people who were banned, and, and we, we weren't banned from teaching. We were just banned from being on the premises of schools within the borders of the Republic of South Africa. So the banning, so they, so we got a banning order served on us, which meant that, so we weren't banned from teaching, we just couldn't go to school. And, so, so in somewhere around, I think it was three months before the end of the year, so the last three months of the, before the end of the year, I was banned, and I think it would have been about September, October. 1986. It was an attempt to undermine, on the one hand, the full, the, the, the, the emerging organization of teachers, and on the other hand, to, to take away the, that alliance between teachers and students, because teachers and students had active relationships, a-around political struggle back in those days. and, and so it was an attempt to identify, it was an attempt by the state to identify people they considered to be agitators of unrest at the schools and to neutralize them. So, so, so that, so that happened in 1986. In, in 1987, early 1987, and it wasn't just at my school. It was at a number of schools in the Western, there weren't many, I think there were about twenty or so people banned across the Western Cape, maybe not even that many, but they were banned from school. So the, the, the, so in, in the next year, The students at the schools refused to go back to classes until their teachers were reinstated. So after the year started and, and, eventually the, we were allowed to, we were reinstated, we were allowed to return to schools. And, yeah. And so in, we start, I started teaching again, I think in about February twenty se- nineteen ninety-seven. But I didn't stay for very long because, yeah, I didn't stay for very long because the, that, that period, that period of my banning, it's, it was challenging for me because now, s-one moment I had a job and an income, and I was living on my own, and the next moment I didn't have a job and an income, and I could no longer afford rent, and I couldn't afford to keep my car, sold my car, and moved back in with my parents, and then had to, had a little bit of time to think about what do I do next, because You know, so at the start of the process, I didn't know what I was going to do. I didn't know that I would be reinstated the next year. I didn't, I had no knowledge, so I had to think of how I would sustain myself, from that point forth.


### Passage: From unemployed English graduate to US scholarship [17:52–21:43, 616 words]

Note (AI): Shows how a test score too high for a bachelor's scholarship led to a master's place in computer science he felt unprepared for.

Sean Lewis, guest [17:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1072):
> I serendipitously came across a, a, an advertisement for black students in South Africa to apply for scholarships to study in the US. and, and given that I had, given that I didn't have a, I, I had no job, and I had no prospects of getting a job, because, and I don't know if you know this, but if you have a BA degree majoring in English literature, you're not very employable. so people look at you as, you're either underqualified for most things that require a, a competence of some sort, or you're overqualified because you have a degree and you can't do entry-level work. You know, so you're either underqualified or overqualified, but you're certainly not qualified to do anything but teach English. So, so after trying to find another job, I came across this ad, and I applied for, to, to study. And I spoke to my dad, and I remember my dad saying to me that, my dad say, my dad said to me that I should go and study computers. This is 1986, and, I knew nothing about computers. so I applied to, to a bachelor's degree, a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science. I applied to, to get a, for a scholarship to do a, to study for the BSc in Computer Science in the US. And then, and went through the process of the application process, and then you had to write the, the, the, the, what's it, the SATs, the Scholastic Aptitude Test. And, so I wrote the, the SATs, and, and then, and, and I wrote the SATs, which I encountered for the first time, and then I, and the, the problem, believe it or not, an interesting problem was that my score was too high. So I scored in the ninety-seventh or ninety-eighth percentile. and I don't think... So what that basically means is that ninety-seven, ninety-eight people, ninety-seven, ninety-eight percent of the people who wrote the test in that year scored below me. So because my score was in the ninety-seventh or ninety-eighth percentile, and I had a degree already, the, the, the, the, the scholarship providers came back to me and said, they cannot accept me for a scholarship to do a Bachelor of Science degree, a bachelor's degree, because my, my scores were too high, and, I already had a degree, but they would offer me a place if I was prepared to do a master's degree. So, I said, I, I had nothing else to do, so I said, okay. And so I had to write the... something, GMAT probably. I pro- I had to write something, some other graduate, no, G, graduate record exam, GREs. I had to write a GRE, which is the graduate record examination, and I don't remember what score I got there because there were no issues with my score. I was accepted, got into a university, and got accepted to do a, to study for a master's in computer science at the State University of New York at Albany. bear in mind that at that point I had no knowledge of computing, none whatsoever. So, so I accepted the scholarship, they made the scholarship offer, I accepted the scholarship, and, And, and did, but I accepted the scholarship, and in the back of my head, I was thinking, there is no way I can do a Master of Science in, in, in computer science. I just don't have the knowledge or the skills, but I'm going to accept the scholarship, and if I fail in the first quarter and they send me home, I would at least have had a three-month holiday in the US.


### Passage: Negotiating the unification of South African volleyball [32:56–36:04, 522 words]

Note (AI): Sean describes discovering his ability to listen and find commonality in conflict, and drafting the Basis for Unity document.

Sean Lewis, guest [32:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1976):
> One of the things that we needed to do was to start breaking down those barriers. And within the volleyball fraternity, we then had three organizations. we had, we had three organizations, and I was served on the national executive of one of the three. And what we had to do was to then we started having talks about unification. And I became involved in the talk, so we, we, each of the, the national executives elected Selected three people that would represent each organization, so there was this group of nine people that got together periodically to start hammering out how we would actually unify. It was quite a contentious, it was quite, there was a lot of, there was a lot, a lot of conflict. There was a lot of conflict in the process because people obviously felt very strongly about things, and, and at, in that po- at that point, I, so I think I matured quite a bit through the process because in that process, I realized that I have, there, I realized, there, a couple of things about myself. One, that I have the ability to listen very carefully, which, I didn't know that I had. I probably had it, but I didn't realize it quite to the same extent. So I was able to listen very carefully, and I was able to find commonality when this, within the conflict. So, so even though there were the many conflicting ideas that were being, that we were, we were arguing about, and there was lots of passion and emotion, I discovered then that I had the ability to, to, to transcend and move beyond the passion and the emotion and find the commonalities. So, and I remember writing a document after the first session and, in which we argued furiously for two days, I remember sitting down and writing a document in which I define, in which I, I think we called it the basis for unity. I think I, and, and remember this is, or still the pre-computer days, we didn't really have ubiquitous computers, so this was written by hand on yellow paper. I'll never forget it, and there were those yellow exam pads, and I probably still have it somewhere. I wrote a document called the Basis for Unity, so that when the, we met the next time, we could actually debate that basis for unity, and we could then agree on some principles, which was, were agreed, and then we could then start building forward from there. And, so this process lasted for probably about two years. I mean, this process lasted for, from around about 1992 up until, and beyond the time that I left, but I left the country again, no, not 1992, from about 1990, up until about 1992, because I left the country again in '92, in February '92, but that's a different story. So this process happened for those few years, and we got to a point, we got to a point where we were now ready to form a unified organization, which eventually emerged called Volleyball South Africa.


### Passage: Writing to 124 universities and going to Pittsburgh [41:08–44:41, 581 words]

Note (AI): A concrete account of how Sean found funded study with no visa or money: researching programmes, mass letters, then visiting faculty in person.

Sean Lewis, guest [41:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2468):
> So I studied these Peterson's Guides. I spent days in the library studying these Peterson's Guides and identified, I thought about what I wanted to study, and I was interested in language because, I was very interested in language because I thought, I looked at South Africa and I said, in South Africa, we need to have an understanding of how we bridge this language gap because in addition to, I mean, we've had all of these various dimensions of poverty and social class and, quality of life, et cetera. The area of, in my area, my particular area of interest where I, the, the factor that I thought could Impact on, on, on all of those things is language. So one of the factors, and I'm not saying it's a definitive factor, but I wanted to understand language. So I looked at, I looked for universities that offered language programs up the, so I looked at language programs, but applied linguistics programs. So I looked specifically for applied linguistics programs up to, up to doctorate level. Because at that stage, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I had this idea that the, the, a sensible logical choice would be to try and do a PhD in applied linguistics. so that's what I looked for, and I find, found one hundred and twenty-four Universities in the West, in the US that offered a doctoral program in applied linguistics. So I wrote a letter, I, I sat down and I wrote a letter to all hundred and twenty-four universities saying a couple of things. One, I'm a South African, South, South African, in the US, I don't have a visa, I don't have money, but I'd like to study at a, at your university and I need you to fund my studies. so, and I, and, and I sent it to hundred and twenty-four universities and I got nineteen responses, seventeen of which were negative. but there were two positives, the uni, the, the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Delaware. So I looked at these two responses. and, and, and decided that I, that I needed to, that I decided that I, I'm going, that I would go to the University of Pittsburgh. I don't remember why, but I know I decided on Pittsburgh, and I decided that I needed to make, because the University of Pittsburgh said that they would consider my application. So both Delaware and neither of them committed to giving me an offer, but they both said, neither of them said no. So I decided that I needed to go and make a compelling case, to the University of Pittsburgh. So at that point, I was living in Albany again. So I'd moved from New York City, and I was living in Albany because I was no longer working, and I needed to find a place where I could live for free. So I went to live with my good friend in, in, in Albany, my home away from home. And, so I then got on a Greyhound bus. And went to Pittsburgh and went to talk to all of the people in, all of the major faculty members at the, in the linguistics department, introduced myself and said, hi, I'm Sean, I'm the guy who wrote that letter, and, because I wanted them to see me and hear me, because then it would make it more difficult for them to say no.


### Passage: Seven weeks on rice awaiting a visa [45:21–47:36, 408 words]

Note (AI): Illustrates what Sean went through to study in Pittsburgh while waiting for the visa that allowed him to be paid.

Sean Lewis, guest [45:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2721):
> from there I then went, so in, in about August, August 1992, I then left, I then left, Albany and went to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I, and went to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, found myself an apartment, a tiny little apartment, and used all the remaining money that I had left, and I, I used all the remaining money that I had left to pay my rent upfront, so pay for three months of rent, and to buy a massive bag of rice. And the reason was very simple. in order, so while I was accepted at the university and could start taking classes with a tuition waiver, I could not get paid until I had a visa. So I had apply, I, of course, I could only apply for the visa once I was accepted at the university. But the process of getting a visa took time. So when I went to Pittsburgh in Albany, and in August, I did not have a visa, and I had no income, and I had no spare money. So I used, I made sure that I had a place to live, and I made sure that I had something to eat, and that something to eat was rice, because rice was cheap, and it could, you could just keep rice, you take, take a little bit of rice and you boil it, and it becomes a lot more. So I lived on rice for about seven weeks. I lived on rice only for about seven weeks, because I had no more money. And what I did in order to, so I would prepare rice every day for breakfast, lunch, and supper, and, what I did was I discovered that there were shops, so there were little shops that sold, Vegetables and stuff, so green grocers, a little Italian shop close to my house. And at night, they would take the, the, the vegetables that were starting to rot and put them, put it outside the shop. They would close the shop and put the vegetables outside. So I would go and pick up the vegetables every night and take them home, cut away the rotting bits, and then I would prepare a meal of rice with vegetables. And that's how I lived for about seven weeks until my visa came through and I could get paid and I could live like a human, not just eat rice with, with, with rotting vegetables.


### Passage: The module three turning point on the EMBA [55:32–58:05, 463 words]

Note (AI): Sean answers how he earned his EMBA cum laude: an average mark after overconfidence, reflection, and then full immersion in the learning.

Sean Lewis, guest [55:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3332):
> Look, I did consistently well from the beginning, so it's, so I did very well in module, module one. I did very well in module two. In module three, I didn't do as well. And I got cocky. I, I, I'll tell you honestly that I'm, I'm, so I've always been an above-average student. I mean, that's, I, I've always been in a, one of the top students. I've never been the top student, never been the best, but I've always been amongst the best. And I find studying easy. I love studying, and I find studying easy. And I find acquiring new knowledge and making the knowledge my own, I find that easy. I, easy and enjoyable, which is wonderful if you love studying. But in the first year of the executive MBA, module one was bewildering. I mean, I didn't know, I, I, I had no idea of who I was, where I was, and what all of these things meant. But in spite of that, I did very well on my position, with my position paper. And module two was also bewildering, less so than module one, because the discourse had been established, but I also did very well. So I got cocky, and in module three, I did very little work. I think I wrote my position paper in one day. I think, I, I think I started my position paper the morning, it, it was due the Friday. I started writing that paper the morning, and that's writing and the, doing the research, and I created that entire paper, and I submitted it on time by eleven o'clock that night, and I got an average mark for it, and, and I hate average marks, right, just by the way, I'm, so I, I, so And, and, and I looked, I reflected on, on, on module three. I reflected very seriously on module three, and I realized, one, that I got cocky, and two, I'm taking learning for granted. I'm taking, absolutely taking learning for granted. I'm not embracing the, the, the, the, the opportunity to learn new things and really, really, immerse myself in learning. So from that point forth, I completely immersed myself in the learning. I mean, that for me was the most, that for me was the big eye opener, the ma- major turning point. And when I, so, so from that point forth, I worked extremely hard. I worked hard and I worked consistently, and I put my, I put my, my soul into what I was doing. I wasn't just trying to get marks. I actually didn't care about the marks. I just, I, I really just cared about whether or not I would be happy with what I produced at the end.


### Quotes

> "My brother, who was two years older than me, applied to the University of Western Cape, and he was Accepted, and he would have gone to the University of Western Cape two years before me, but he got killed in a motorcycle accident when he was eighteen, just after he finished writing the trip. so he didn't get the opportunity beyond that. So I ended up being the first kid in the family to go to a university, which was kind of, kind of an alien in, alien environment."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=414)

> "I'm absolutely terrible at accounting, and nobody should ever appoint me as a treasurer of an organization."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [13:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=823)

> "if I fail in the first quarter and they send me home, I would at least have had a three-month holiday in the US."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [21:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1298)

> "I never went. I did not go once to this induction. I didn't take it seriously enough, because I didn't think I would survive. I didn't think I would last. And my mom was so concerned about it, my mom went in my stead. My friends always remind me that, I was the only student whose mom came to these induction sessions instead of him. So my mom went to these induction sessions,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [22:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1352)

> "the idea behind the program, I think, was to start developing that Black middle class. There was a conscious, I think there was a conscious, decision in the West that, that in order to ensure the step, the stability of South Africa in the future, they needed to develop that buffer middle class, that black buffer middle class that did not exist in South Africa at the time. So there was a conscious decision to develop that black middle class, and which is what we were part of, and to ensure that the, that we had educated people, that to build up a cohort of educated people that could assume, positions of authority and influence in a future South Africa."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [24:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1471)

> "for me it was like watching paint dry."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1735)

> "I was miserable. I mean, I was, I was like devastated. I was miserable. And, I was absolutely, absolutely devastated. And so the, the, the only way, and, and I, I find, and I realized also that I find solace in, in learning. so I, I then decided that, because now my, my entire life, my, all my life plans had been, had been, had been, were aborted, and, I had no life plan. So, I worked illegally in, in New York City."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [39:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2377)

> "because I wanted them to see me and hear me, because then it would make it more difficult for them to say no."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2675)

> "until my visa came through and I could get paid and I could live like a human, not just eat rice with, with, with rotting vegetables."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [47:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2848)

> "I established, I founded the, the African Students Association in Pittsburgh, where we, and basically what I wanted to do was to provide a community of Africans in Pittsburgh that could welcome Africans whenever they arrived in the, in the, in Pittsburgh and make them, and give them an induction, give them a family, somebody that they could speak to, somebody that they could relate to, so that they didn't have to go down the roads, the, the, the, the negative, the damage, the negative roads that they were going."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [48:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2888)

> "I didn't like the idea of having Americans speak for us as though we could not speak for ourselves."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2925)

> "I got cocky, and two, I'm taking learning for granted."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [57:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3438)

> "the teaching actually makes me feel Like I'm adding value to the world in some way,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [59:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3542)

> "I have a different cloud space for my personal life from the cloud space that I have for my corporate life. I complete Chinese wall."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [60:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3645)

> "I only have one life, even though I have this Chinese wall between my academic life and my work life."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [61:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3716)

> "we have to create the best lives for those around us, because we don't live our best lives in isolation."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · [72:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4355)


### Claims

> "I met Sean at the first course of my EMBA. He was our lecturer in evidence-based management and systems methodology."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=68)

> "I was born in, in a, in a house in Belgravia Estate, which is in Cape Flats, where I lived in a room with my mother and father, and my older brother, and my little sister, and we shared the house."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Growing up under apartheid · [02:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=157)

> "And my dad had actually started working as a laborer for the municipality. He started off by loading tar onto trucks, and then he worked his way through to becoming a rent office clerk."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Growing up under apartheid · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=207)

> "So you have poor schools, poor kids go to poor, relatively poor schools, and wealthy kids go to relatively wealthy schools. So you don't have that lovely mix of the classes and, that, that rich educational, educational experience outside, beyond the classroom."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [05:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=320)

> "None of my members of my family, nobody before me had gone to a university. That's my entire extended family, my mother's side, my father's side. Nobody had gone to a university before."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Growing up under apartheid · [06:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=404)

> "My brother, who was two years older than me, applied to the University of Western Cape, and he was Accepted, and he would have gone to the University of Western Cape two years before me, but he got killed in a motorcycle accident when he was eighteen, just after he finished writing the trip."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Growing up under apartheid · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=414)

> "So I, I was required to go there unless I could prove that the course that I wanted to, a course that I wanted to take was not offered at the University of Western Cape, and that was drama. So I took drama and, and, and failed it three times."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Growing up under apartheid · [10:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=647)

> "And I graduated, did a teacher's diploma, higher diploma in education, and then taught for about three and a half years in Cape Town."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=696)

> "So in 1986, we started a process of creating a teachers' union in the Western Cape, and that teachers' union was called the Western Cape Teachers' Union. So I was intimately involved in that process in the establishment of, of the Western Cape Teachers' Union, or WECTU as it became known. So I served on the, the interim executive committee that led to the founding of WECTU in 1987."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [12:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=776)

> "We were just banned from being on the premises of schools within the borders of the Republic of South Africa. So the banning, so they, so we got a banning order served on us, which meant that, so we weren't banned from teaching, we just couldn't go to school."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [14:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=880)

> "it was an attempt by the state to identify people they considered to be agitators of unrest at the schools and to neutralize them."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [15:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=935)

> "The students at the schools refused to go back to classes until their teachers were reinstated."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [16:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=969)

> "moment I had a job and an income, and I was living on my own, and the next moment I didn't have a job and an income, and I could no longer afford rent, and I couldn't afford to keep my car, sold my car, and moved back in with my parents,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [16:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1005)

> "if you have a BA degree majoring in English literature, you're not very employable. so people look at you as, you're either underqualified for most things that require a, a competence of some sort, or you're overqualified because you have a degree and you can't do entry-level work."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1095)

> "scholarship providers came back to me and said, they cannot accept me for a scholarship to do a Bachelor of Science degree, a bachelor's degree, because my, my scores were too high, and, I already had a degree, but they would offer me a place if I was prepared to do a master's degree."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [20:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1211)

> "but I'm going to accept the scholarship, and if I fail in the first quarter and they send me home, I would at least have had a three-month holiday in the US."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [21:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1297)

> "So, it was 1987. I was 25 years old. I've never been on a plane. So for me, this was a completely new adventure, and I was going to have fun with it."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [22:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1321)

> "There was a conscious, I think there was a conscious, decision in the West that, that in order to ensure the step, the stability of South Africa in the future, they needed to develop that buffer middle class, that black buffer middle class that did not exist in South Africa at the time."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [24:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1476)

> "So I published a monthly newsletter. I think I, that's a monthly newsletter for the two years that I was in the US. I published a monthly newsletter and distributed it electronically to all students, all black South African students in the US, and we arranged a conference."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1616)

> "So I went to the university and I said I need to change my program. From a master's in computer science to a master of science in technology, master of ed- master of science in education specializing in technology."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [28:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1737)

> "so I ended up I ended up at UCT, again, I ended up at UCT working as a, the, my, my official job title was programmer, and I did a little bit of programming."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1823)

> "even before I went, left the first time, I, I was president of Western Province Volleyball Association, so I became president of Western Province Volleyball."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [31:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=1914)

> "even though there were the many conflicting ideas that were being, that we were, we were arguing about, and there was lots of passion and emotion, I discovered then that I had the ability to, to, to transcend and move beyond the passion and the emotion and find the commonalities."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [34:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2059)

> "I wrote a document called the Basis for Unity, so that when the, we met the next time, we could actually debate that basis for unity, and we could then agree on some principles, which was, were agreed, and then we could then start building forward from there."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [35:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2109)

> "we got to a point where we were now ready to form a unified organization, which eventually emerged called Volleyball South Africa."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Education and activism · [35:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2157)

> "I was, of course, fully committed because I had sold my house, sold my car, sold my motorbike, sold my hi-fi system, and I had arrived in the US with my mother in tow because my mother wanted to be there when we got married."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Persistence in pursuing knowledge · [38:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2297)

> "And then I, I, I decided that what I want to do is, okay, I want to study. I want to study again. The only way, the way, something that would make me happy would be studying."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Persistence in pursuing knowledge · [40:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2432)

> "I find, found one hundred and twenty-four Universities in the West, in the US that offered a doctoral program in applied linguistics. So I wrote a letter, I, I sat down and I wrote a letter to all hundred and twenty-four universities saying a couple of things."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Persistence in pursuing knowledge · [42:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2543)

> "and I sent it to hundred and twenty-four universities and I got nineteen responses, seventeen of which were negative. but there were two positives, the uni, the, the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Delaware."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Persistence in pursuing knowledge · [43:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2580)

> "introduced myself and said, hi, I'm Sean, I'm the guy who wrote that letter, and, because I wanted them to see me and hear me, because then it would make it more difficult for them to say no."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Persistence in pursuing knowledge · [44:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2670)

> "So I lived on rice for about seven weeks. I lived on rice only for about seven weeks, because I had no more money."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Persistence in pursuing knowledge · [46:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2803)

> "So one of the things I did in, in the, in, in Pittsburgh was to, I established, I founded the, the African Students Association in Pittsburgh, where we, and basically what I wanted to do was to provide a community of Africans in Pittsburgh that could welcome Africans whenever they arrived in the, in the, in Pittsburgh"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [48:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2884)

> "I didn't like the idea of having Americans speak for us as though we could not speak for ourselves."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Studying abroad on scholarship · [48:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2925)

> "I lectured in the English department at the University of Western Cape. I taught English language and literature at the University of Western Cape,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [49:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=2965)

> "South African education needed, corporate skills, that we needed to have a better understanding of how to manage education by learning how corporates manage organizations, go, companies, because corporates manage companies with, you know, they, they manage bottom line, they manage profitability,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [50:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3003)

> "So I left public relations to work as an IT project manager, which I did for a while, and then just stayed in the IT, then, and that was kind of my return to IT,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [51:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3080)

> "I worked at Vodacom for, at MWeb for a while, for a couple of years, and then I ended up at Vodacom, got recruited, ended up at Vodacom, and I'm still at Vodacom in an IT role."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [52:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3136)

> "when I think that my value proposition, my personal value proposition exceeds that of just techno, technology and operations. I, I think that I can, I add a lot of strategic value."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Career from teaching to IT · [52:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3164)

> "I actually did not know that he was offering me a job. I thought he was just saying, come in and have a chat."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [54:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3284)

> "So I was looking at your, LinkedIn profile, and it said there, I have a executive MBA, cum laude, and you were class president."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [55:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3307)

> "So I got cocky, and in module three, I did very little work. I think I wrote my position paper in one day."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [56:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3397)

> "I realized, one, that I got cocky, and two, I'm taking learning for granted. I'm taking, absolutely taking learning for granted."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [57:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3436)

> "I worked hard and I worked consistently, and I put my, I put my, my soul into what I was doing. I wasn't just trying to get marks. I actually didn't care about the marks."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [57:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3468)

> "I would probably have looked at, integrative thinking, cause I love the work of Roger Martin. I would probably have wanted to teach that rather than, than evidence-based management and systems thinking."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [58:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3513)

> "because the teaching actually makes me feel Like I'm adding value to the world in some way, in, in ways that doing corporate stuff just don't."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [59:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3542)

> "So I separated the two and I created a separate existence for my corporate life. So I have two computers right next to each other on my desk."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [60:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3622)

> "I work on after hours, so I won't start before five, and I work on weekends. so I'll do a Saturday and a Sunday."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: EMBA learning and teaching · [61:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3661)

> "My, my, my, my systems thinking enriches my corporate life significantly. The understanding of VSM and the, and the organizational imperatives around VSM, assist me in understanding how to manage"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Systems thinking at work · [62:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3721)

> "So we've got a survival strategy. But do we have a, a strategy, a strategy that takes us to the next three years or the next five years? And I don't think we do,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Systems thinking at work · [63:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3822)

> "Roger Martin opened new ways for me to think about concretizing vision than I ever had before."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Systems thinking at work · [64:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=3890)

> "That petty bourgeoisie now is sinking further and further into that, into the working class, because the work that they're doing is, increasingly becoming, less, less, stable, less secure, and more precarious."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Future of work and inequality · [67:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4029)

> "You go to NASPERS, you know, if you can look at NASPERS in the news, you'll see they've retrenched most of the editors and writers, et cetera, and they're now contracting them in, the same people."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Future of work and inequality · [67:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4065)

> "and she wants to study medicine. She's in matric now, wants to study medicine."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Future of work and inequality · [69:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4175)

> "And I'm hoping that the answer to that question is a world in which we create a greater distribu-distribution of the, the wealth that we're able to generate in order to improve the quality of life of people across the board."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Future of work and inequality · [70:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4215)

> "Now, I'm thinking that it would be wonderful if we were able to build a notion of cooperative living, and one idea that I have is the farm, where instead of having, create an estate, but a, an estate of people that actually work the farm,"
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Future of work and inequality · [71:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4270)

> "in order for us to live our best lives, we have to create the best lives for those around us, because we don't live our best lives in isolation."
> — Sean Lewis, guest · topic: Future of work and inequality · [72:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991972_high.mp3#t=4352)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation Sean Lewis (UCT GSB | Lecturer) This episode is part of a series of learning journey conversations Petro du Pisani is having, as a result of meeting inspiring people as part of doing her EMBA through UCT's Graduate School of Business. In this episode Petro speaks to Sean Lewis who is a part-time lecturer for the UCT EMBA. He is also a past student of the programme. Sean teaches evidence-based management and systems thinking, and he is also interested in integrative thinking. Sean balances his lecturing with a full-time corporate IT role, and still finds space to spend quality time with his students. Sean has pursued knowledge his entire life. He is a strong, independent thinker, who naturally thrives in an environment where he is empowered to achieve organisational and personal development goals. In this conversation we hear about Sean's story and how he continuously strove to find ways to study and grow. Connect with Sean on LinkedIn � Find out more about the UCT GSB EMBA � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #017 Chris Breen | Finding what matters most

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/017-finding-what-matters-most/
- Date: 2020-07-19 (as at 2020-07-19)
- Guest: Chris Breen
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Personal leadership, Teaching for transformation, Learning from failure, Three marriages, Living an examined life, Say yes to everything, Leading during COVID-19
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991973
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3

### About the guest: Chris Breen

- Emeritus Professor · UCT GSB
- After many years as a university mathematics educator, he changed direction twelve years ago. He now focuses on designing and running corporate programs on personal leadership in complex times.

In their own words:

> "So I pushed at my maths ability and came top of maths in the country writing advanced maths, did athletics and became top in the country and, and took the hardest of ed hurdles." [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=380)

> "Studied UCT, did chemical engineering, started studying a master's in physical chemistry, decided that was not very helpful." [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=429)

> "I went to England and studied Very quickly studied a master's in teaching mathematics, which totally turned my whole world upside down as to what methodology of maths could be." [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=522)

> "the NGO grew to having a staff of eighteen. I was finding all the funding for it, member of the Radical Maths Education Group." [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=738)

> "I was awarded the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. And I decided to have a party to thank prominent past students for what they'd taught me along the way." [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798)

> "It's been thirty-five years in the making, so it's got a lot of background, a lot of writing, a lot of researching about it, and I became president of the International Maths Research Group and presented papers and, and gave workshops on it." [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Chris Breen, a former maths educator who now teaches personal leadership in complex times, as part of her EMBA learning-journey series. Chris traces his path from an asthmatic childhood, through the 1980s school struggle and an NGO, to his move into leadership teaching after deciding to 'say yes to everything'. He explains his teaching method of disturbing people's assumptions. He also discusses David Whyte's three marriages, James Hollis's examined life, Rumi's Guest House and what leaders need during COVID-19. His recurring argument is that he teaches from his failures and that life is about dealing with failure.

**Key ideas**

- Chris argues that the only way we learn is through perturbation: having our core assumptions disturbed so we do our own thinking. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029))
- Chris says a teacher offers only their own journey, and that his teaching comes mainly from his failures. ([00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=6) [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306) [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306))
- Drawing on David Whyte, Chris rejects the balanced life. He holds that marriage to self means inner reflection, not busy solo activity. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758))
- Chris argues that entitlement makes setbacks feel like failure. Letting go of hope and fear lets people act from their true selves. ([30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1805) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1808) [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1859) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2245))
- During COVID-19, Chris found organisations needed validation and affirmation of self before any leadership training. The host describes a corporate push instead to 'not waste the crisis'. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1474) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1497) [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1542) [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1597))
- Chris describes his early experience that rational lecturing did not change teachers, whose practice did not match their stated politics. ([09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=591) [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=655) [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=708))
- Chris credits a rune reading telling him to 'say yes to everything' with opening his path into business-school teaching. He also questions the payoff of taking on too much. ([12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=759) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=762) [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=848) [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2298) [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2331))

**Teaching through perturbation** ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898) [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=956) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1051))

1. Level the playing field very quickly in the first session.
2. Put a framework in place that stops people ad-hocking and alpha males dominating, and assert authority.
3. Once people cooperate and every voice is equal, disturb taken-for-granted assumptions through what he does, presents, workshops or conversations.
4. Harvest the disturbance so people make their own decisions, without a model of where they should end up.

**Lessons**

- Chris suggests that marriage to self is time spent looking inwards, not busy solo activity, which may be avoidance of self. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758))
- Chris advises asking what the payoff and cost are when you take on too many commitments. ([38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2298) [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2331) [38:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2335))
- Chris recommends asking how your true self would act if you set aside hope for a result and fear of another. ([30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1859) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2245))
- Chris holds, citing Stephen Jenkinson, that life is about dealing with failure rather than a success story. ([00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=6) [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2150) [36:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2160))
- Chris's parting message is to pay attention to what matters most and act from your true self without excuses. ([42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540) [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540))

**Who it's for:** Leaders, EMBA students and educators interested in personal leadership, reflective practice and teaching for transformation. Also people rethinking how they spend their time and energy during crisis.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Chris qualified for the Olympic Games in Mexico, but South Africa was thrown out about a week later. ([06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=414))
- The NGO Chris started grew to a staff of eighteen. ([12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=738))
- Chris received the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. ([13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798))
- Chris says his teaching style has been thirty-five years in the making, and he was president of an international maths research group. ([15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902))
- At an AGM in Australia, two words added to the constitution opened the research group to papers on all important topics. ([19:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1191) [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1204))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is Chris Breen's teaching method based on?**
A: He says learning happens through perturbation: being disturbed at our core so we do our own thinking. After levelling the playing field, he spends his energy disturbing assumptions and lets people decide for themselves, with no fixed outcome model. ([14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898) [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=956) [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1051))

**Q: What does 'marriage to self' mean in David Whyte's three marriages?**
A: Chris says it is the ability to be on your own looking inwards, to feel grief and to stand still and breathe. Punishing your body through sport, or busy solo activities, is not marriage to self. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758))

**Q: Should you try to balance work, relationships and yourself equally?**
A: Chris says David Whyte calls the balanced life a load of rubbish. The three marriages are in constant conversation with each other, and you can contract for less time in one area during a given period. ([28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699) [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699))

**Q: What do employees need from leaders during the COVID-19 crisis?**
A: From two organisational conversations, Chris found the starting point was validation and affirmation of self. People need permission to take time for what fulfils them, with leaders encouraging it. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1474) [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1497))

**Q: How did Chris Breen end up teaching leadership at a business school?**
A: After a rune reading told him to say yes to everything, he won a UCT teaching award and invited past students to a party. Kurt April invited him to teach, and he was then recommended for a leadership program he had never taught. ([12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=759) [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=762) [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798) [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=848))

**Q: How should you respond when bad things happen?**
A: Chris draws on Rumi's Guest House: do not feel entitled or waste energy bemoaning your fate, but engage and ask what you can learn. He describes applying this when his back seized after his mother's death. ([30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1805) [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1808) [31:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1916))

**Q: What questions should you ask yourself in life?**
A: Chris asks whether he is true to himself, who and what he is in service to, and whether he acts in line with his purpose. The host asks how she wants to spend her time and what type of person she wants to be. ([36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2180) [36:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2196))


### Passage: A childhood shaped by determined parents and asthma [03:23–05:49, 375 words]

Note (AI): Chris traces his drive and his relationship to struggle back to his mother's wartime history and his own childhood illness.

Chris Breen, guest [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=203):
> So when you say you want to talk and have a conversation about change, my mother was ten when the Second World War started and was immediately shipped off out of London with strangers. Bombing in London, had a friend killed with a bomb, walking, when she was walking next to her, lost her boyfriend, got married at eighteen to a man twenty years older than her who'd been born Cockney working class, had taken elocution lessons to, to change his language, had been in the war in minesweeping, and then started as an office boy in a company in South Africa, and then when they got married, moved to South Africa. And my mother had me at the very next year at nineteen. So I was born into, to very determined parents, full of change in their life, dramatic change. And so that's me coming into the world and in a sense, having a, a reaction to all of their stuff, which was that I was born as an asthmatic. So, so again, sort of struggle to breathe. Lots of struggle to survive. And in fact, the primary school was pulled out of the swimming pool, supposedly dead, having gone in the deep end when I couldn't swim, but fortunately I recovered. Fortunately for some, maybe not for current students. Yeah, so, so that asthma also, I had a talent in running, but I was in an all-boys school, and of course my father, having come from his background, wanted us to go to the best schools, even if we didn't fit in. So I grew up in Cape Town, went to all-boys private schools, could do sport, win the victrola dorm at primary school, then struggled to breathe for a long time, be sick for a long time, jumped to class because I was supposedly Very competent, and then kept back for three years because I was too young. And so a whole mixture of survival and pushing really hard, both my parents, especially my mother. Whatever I did, the next thing was, what's next? How do you do better? A privileged background of confusion and always pushing, always being pushed, and always needing to do better, and always take on new tasks.


### Passage: Political awakening and teaching for transformation [09:51–12:38, 392 words]

Note (AI): Chris explains how the 1980s school struggle, a detained colleague and failed lecturing pushed him to research teaching for transformation.

Chris Breen, guest [09:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=591):
> So I started, got a job at UCT in about eighty-four, immediately started a master's in teaching mathematics, all new programs. Insisted on going out into the townships to understand what was going on in schools in the townships, and immediately in 1986, all the boycott and the troubles in the schools. I also started an NGO, appointed against my colleagues in the department, fellow lecturers, best advice. I appointed a political activist who was in my B.Ed. class to be, to work for me at the NGO. He was immediately detained, tortured, and so my induction into the political realities in the school happened, and I became very involved in supporting students and teachers in the schools, which pushed me into trying to make a difference in the lecture room. And very quickly I learned that by doing that by rational research, lecturing didn't help at all, because the left-wingers loved what I was saying, viva comrade, viva, and enjoyed the, the theory, what, what I was offering, but the right-wingers just were saying, bloody communist, and that we don't want to listen to him. 1986 was a tumultuous year, both in the, in the political scene in the schools, but also for me, because the very next year I said, I've got to change my teaching methodology. And I'm going to devote myself to finding, researching my own practice, first person, second person research to what is it to teach for transformation? How do I get math teachers to recognize the intelligence of the people in their class, even if that intelligence is very different? Because I think that I found out whether you were left-wing or right-wing, most of the people, most of the teachers, in their student teaching anyway, were fascists in the classroom. What they actually did was not aligned with what they said. And that started a whole long journey in lecturing, in making that, that project that had one person in the townships in my spare time, still being a full-time lecturer, the NGO grew to having a staff of eighteen. I was finding all the funding for it, member of the Radical Maths Education Group. I became a member of that, went to England for a first conference on political dimensions in maths education, and everything became focused on how do you teach differently.


### Passage: Saying yes to everything leads to business school [12:39–14:34, 298 words]

Note (AI): The turning point in which a rune reading, a teaching award and a former student led Chris into leadership teaching.

Chris Breen, guest [12:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=759):
> So round about 2000, everything changed again. I, I went to one of these funny throwing the runes, alternative fortune telling, and I w- and I got, say yes to everything. The runes have come down with lots of buffalo energy, say yes to everything, explore everything. And boy, oh boy, did everything happen from there. And I just kept saying yes, and that stayed with me since then. And while, in that same year, while I accepted giving a talk at a Portuguese math teachers conference and doing PhD research seminar in New Zealand, I was awarded the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. And I decided to have a party to thank prominent past students for what they'd taught me along the way. And one of the people invited was a guy who'd done, who'd done the teacher's diploma with me, Kurt April, and he is, was then and still is a lecturer at U, at UCT's business school. And he said, what are you doing? And I'd just been to a workshop in England on complexity at work. And he said, but I'm teaching on that. Come and teach my MBA program with me. And I said, only if we can, I can sit in on the whole session. And, and every single session. And I did that, and a week later, someone phoned me and said, Kurt can't teach on our leadership program, and he's recommended you as the best person. And I'd never taught the subject, but of course, I've got to say yes to everything. So I said, sure. And it was through that experience and getting more and more involved in the business school that I started teaching and started, and that's how I came to teach on the EMBA.


### Passage: How the perturbation teaching style works [14:58–17:49, 420 words]

Note (AI): Chris lays out the reasoning and sequence behind his classroom method: level the field, then disturb assumptions and let people decide.

Petro du Pisani, host [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=898):
> So how did you come up with, with exactly that sort of teaching style?

Chris Breen, guest [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902):
> It's been thirty-five years in the making, so it's got a lot of background, a lot of writing, a lot of researching about it, and I became president of the International Maths Research Group and presented papers and, and gave workshops on it. I think the emerg- the urgency of transformation, then, even more now, means that there's a very small window of opportunity to access people and to get people engaged. And one of the problems is that what I'm trying to access is people's internal worlds and bring about change in that which I think is crucial to change how we are in the world, how we behave in the world. And so in that first session, especially, I've got to level the playing fields very quickly. I've got to Put a framework round that stops people just ad-hocking along, stops the alpha males, whether they're white or of color or male or gen or female. I've got to stop people thinking they can just speak when they want to, take the piss when they want to. yeah, this is serious business, and I've got to somehow assert that authority externally. Once there's control and people are, are cooperating and there aren't discordant voices and people trying to dominate and everybody's voice is equal. Then what I, what I learned very quickly, and, and I've finally found a theory to back it up, but that the only way we learn is from what the theory calls perturbation, being disturbed, having our core selves, our core structures disturbed, so that we do our own thinking. And the, the beautiful thing that it says for the teacher is the teacher's job isn't to pay attention to the outcome. The teacher must spend all their energy disturbing the natural taken-for-granted assumptions, either through what I do or through what I present or workshops or putting people to talk to other people, and that that disturbance then must be, must be Harvested so people have a chance to make their own decisions about what they want to do. So I don't have a model of where I want people to get to, but I have a damn good idea about what I want them to think about, and that's what I do in my associations. Try and create a disturbance for people to think, talk, reconsider, decide whether those taken for granted assumptions are still worthwhile or not.


### Passage: David Whyte's three marriages and marriage to self [28:04–30:03, 356 words]

Note (AI): Chris separates genuine inner reflection from busy solo activity and rejects the idea of a balanced life.

Chris Breen, guest [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1684):
> So I'm laughing because that's exactly what, why David White wrote the book and came up with the talk, which he actually did in Joburg. When it first came out. The, the ideas, he says this balanced life is a load of rubbish. You can't live a balanced life. And so he talks about the three marriages being in constant conversation with each other. And so the idea is that you, that now that you're doing your EMBA, that you contract that there will be for this period, there will be less time spent here. But his point is that, and it, and it's similar to James Hollis's having to listen to your soul, listen to your, in the second half of life, if you don't balance the inner and the outer, you're going to waste your life. And so this marriage to self is listening to the inner self. And it was so funny, I was starting interviewing the people who were coming on a Deloitte program with me, and there was this white guy who said, no, I've got no problem with myself. I, I do mountain biking and I break my record every time and I do this and I do that. And I just said, no, you're punishing your body. That's not marriage to self, that is self-masochism. So, so the marriage to self is the ability to be on your own, in the woods, in nature, looking inwards. It's the ability to feel the grief of the poverty and the hunger that's around at the moment. It's the ability to stop and what Robert Bly calls shudder at what's going on in your life and in what's going on in others. It's standing still and breathing. So I don't know whether you do that. You probably spend a hell of a lot of time doing all sorts of other things, but, you know, it's that time that matters. And that's when, when your partner asks, says, no, you spend a lot of time on your own, that's not necessarily time that's in marriage to self. That's, that's avoidance of self, probably.


### Passage: Entitlement, living beyond hope and fear, facing pain [30:05–32:28, 357 words]

Note (AI): Chris links entitlement, Margaret Wheatley and Rumi's Guest House to his own response to his mother's death and his injury.

Chris Breen, guest [30:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1805):
> I think it's part of an attitude to life. There's, there's a way in which We've become entitled, and that, and that entitlement means that we think life should be good, and that we're failing when we don't get everything going perfectly according to our plans. And I think there's a real, that's not helpful, because then when things go wrong, there's an immediate panic, and there's immediate self-loathing, and there's immediately, I'm not good enough, what did I do wrong, whose fault is it? It's so much wasted time and energy. And I've been drawn again to a very pessimistic woman, Margaret Wheatley, who says the world's in such a bad state, it's in serial decline, and we just must live without hope and without fear. But there's something positive in that, that if we let go of hope, and if we let go of fear, And we just act in every situation according to our true selves, according to our essences, that we're going to be aligned with good to ourselves, to others, and to the world. And so Ruby's poem, The Guest House, is saying that life is not good. Life is full of challenges. Do not feel entitled. Do not waste time when things go wrong. Face up to it. And what can you learn? What happens? What does this give you? What, what are you going to do with it? Yeah. So, so immediately after that call that the family had talking about my mother's death and honoring her, I went with a partner and we went and watched a movie, and when I tried to get up, I couldn't get up. My back had totally seized in my lower back, and I know how it had happened, just in moving something small. Now I can curse and sob, and why me? My mother's just died, and now this, and da-da-da-da-da. But it was like, handle pain, handle death, pay attention to this, and, and use this time to think about your mother, think about where your roots, think about what's happened. Maybe it's time to start thinking about Chris Breen's departure.


### Quotes

> "What I'm doing now and what I'm offering are the lessons from all of the failures, and a few of the successes, but mainly from the failures that I've had in being out there and doing things,"
> — Chris Breen, guest · [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=6)

> "my mother died about four or five days ago, long journey with Alzheimer's, and we got together as a family on Skype, and we're, well, we're very far apart geographically, and I realized the importance of history and where one's come from also plays in life."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [03:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=185)

> "And I'd never taught the subject, but of course, I've got to say yes to everything. So I said, sure."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=856)

> "I think that all any teacher can do is offer themselves and offer their journey."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306)

> "I'm working hard, very hard on doing nothing and being comfortable in the disquiet of, of living in the, in the virus."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [23:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1397)

> "he says this balanced life is a load of rubbish. You can't live a balanced life."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699)

> "That's not marriage to self, that is self-masochism."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [29:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1754)

> "You learn when you fail, not necessarily when you've done well."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [34:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2079)

> "life is not about a success story. Life is about dealing with failure,"
> — Chris Breen, guest · [36:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2160)

> "It's what's the noise? Shut the noise off."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2268)

> "There's no excuse for d- for saying yes to too many things, actually."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [38:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2335)

> "I think it's forcing us to live our examined lives, and then hopefully we've got the opportunity to start having examined societies, examined communities. We've got the chance of, of changing."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2479)

> "Pay attention to what matters most to you, and really act from your true self without excuses, without procrastination."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540)

> "it seems to me that when you're talking about change as your topic, it's almost essential for the technology to go wrong. In order to check whether we can stay grounded, whether we can stay focused, whether we can keep a conversation going despite the noise."
> — Chris Breen, guest · [42:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2574)


### Claims

> "my mother was ten when the Second World War started and was immediately shipped off out of London with strangers."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Family history · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=207)

> "So I pushed at my maths ability and came top of maths in the country writing advanced maths, did athletics and became top in the country and, and took the hardest of ed hurdles."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Early life · [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=380)

> "And again, this thing of challenge and failure, I qualified for the Olympic Games in Mexico. would have gone to run there, but about a week after I qualified, South Africa was thrown out."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=414)

> "Studied UCT, did chemical engineering, started studying a master's in physical chemistry, decided that was not very helpful."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [07:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=429)

> "I went to England and studied Very quickly studied a master's in teaching mathematics, which totally turned my whole world upside down as to what methodology of maths could be."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [08:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=522)

> "I appointed a political activist who was in my B.Ed. class to be, to work for me at the NGO. He was immediately detained, tortured, and so my induction into the political realities in the school happened,"
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=621)

> "And very quickly I learned that by doing that by rational research, lecturing didn't help at all, because the left-wingers loved what I was saying, viva comrade, viva, and enjoyed the, the theory, what, what I was offering, but the right-wingers just were saying, bloody communist, and that we don't want to listen to him."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=655)

> "Because I think that I found out whether you were left-wing or right-wing, most of the people, most of the teachers, in their student teaching anyway, were fascists in the classroom. What they actually did was not aligned with what they said."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [11:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=708)

> "the NGO grew to having a staff of eighteen. I was finding all the funding for it, member of the Radical Maths Education Group."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [12:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=738)

> "I went to one of these funny throwing the runes, alternative fortune telling, and I w- and I got, say yes to everything. The runes have come down with lots of buffalo energy, say yes to everything, explore everything."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [12:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=762)

> "I was awarded the University of Cape Town Distinguished Teacher Award. And I decided to have a party to thank prominent past students for what they'd taught me along the way."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Career path · [13:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=798)

> "a week later, someone phoned me and said, Kurt can't teach on our leadership program, and he's recommended you as the best person. And I'd never taught the subject, but of course, I've got to say yes to everything."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [14:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=848)

> "It's been thirty-five years in the making, so it's got a lot of background, a lot of writing, a lot of researching about it, and I became president of the International Maths Research Group and presented papers and, and gave workshops on it."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=902)

> "I've got to level the playing fields very quickly. I've got to Put a framework round that stops people just ad-hocking along, stops the alpha males, whether they're white or of color or male or gen or female."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=956)

> "the only way we learn is from what the theory calls perturbation, being disturbed, having our core selves, our core structures disturbed, so that we do our own thinking."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [16:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1010)

> "The teacher must spend all their energy disturbing the natural taken-for-granted assumptions, either through what I do or through what I present or workshops or putting people to talk to other people, and that that disturbance then must be, must be Harvested so people have a chance to make their own decisions about what they want to do."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1029)

> "So I don't have a model of where I want people to get to, but I have a damn good idea about what I want them to think about, and that's what I do in my associations."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [17:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1051)

> "So I had a book dropped off for me a couple of days ago where someone who was in a class eleven years ago was making contact. He's having chemotherapy at the moment."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [18:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1110)

> "And in a memorable AGM as president in Australia, we got it overturned, and I, and I'd found a way just to put two extra words into the constitution, and, and we got that, and that changed everything."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [19:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1191)

> "So papers could come from on, on all important topics, and it immediately brought in many more people from Africa and the East into what had been a Europe and, and American-dominated organization."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1204)

> "I think that all any teacher can do is offer themselves and offer their journey."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Teaching for transformation · [21:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1306)

> "actually the starting point for anything now is not a leadership training anything. It's some sort of validation and affirmation of self."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1474)

> "they need to be able to take time for themselves and, and talk about what fills them, fulfills them, what makes them excited, and if they're not doing anything to make themselves excited, then they have to be given work permission to find that time."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [24:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1497)

> "I, I'm finding, I'm having a completely different experience because what's happening now is everybody's saying, don't waste the good crisis."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [25:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1542)

> "people really wanted to like prove that they could adapt to this change. You know, I can do this. I can work virtually. I can go on as if nothing has actually happened in my life, but in, in real life, stuff's happened."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leading during COVID-19 · [26:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1597)

> "he says this balanced life is a load of rubbish. You can't live a balanced life. And so he talks about the three marriages being in constant conversation with each other."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Three marriages · [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1699)

> "there was this white guy who said, no, I've got no problem with myself. I, I do mountain biking and I break my record every time and I do this and I do that. And I just said, no, you're punishing your body. That's not marriage to self, that is self-masochism."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Three marriages · [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1743)

> "So, so the marriage to self is the ability to be on your own, in the woods, in nature, looking inwards. It's the ability to feel the grief of the poverty and the hunger that's around at the moment."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Three marriages · [29:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1758)

> "There's, there's a way in which We've become entitled, and that, and that entitlement means that we think life should be good, and that we're failing when we don't get everything going perfectly according to our plans."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [30:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1808)

> "if we let go of hope, and if we let go of fear, And we just act in every situation according to our true selves, according to our essences, that we're going to be aligned with good to ourselves, to others, and to the world."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [30:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1859)

> "My back had totally seized in my lower back, and I know how it had happened, just in moving something small. Now I can curse and sob, and why me? My mother's just died, and now this, and da-da-da-da-da."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [31:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=1916)

> "an elder's job is to tell people about failure, not about how to succeed, but how to deal with failure, that, that life is not about a success story. Life is about dealing with failure,"
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Learning from failure · [35:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2150)

> "What I ask myself is about Being true to myself, and who am I in service to, and what am I in service to, and am I acting in alignment with my purpose in life?"
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Living an examined life · [36:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2180)

> "I, I think the questions that are important to me are, how do I want to spend my time? Because I, I think that time is really, really valuable, and you have to think about how you want to spend your time."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Living an examined life · [36:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2196)

> "if I get rid of hope and fear in this situation, and I'm not influenced by wanting a certain result or being scared of a different result, how would my true self operate in this situation?"
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2245)

> "What is the payoff for us when we take on all these extra things, and do we ever stop to see the cost of those, of that payoff?"
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2298)

> "because if we want more sleep, we should make the time to have it. There's no excuse for d- for saying yes to too many things, actually."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Say yes to everything · [38:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2331)

> "One of the people who I admire enormously and who used to teach on programs for me is Thabo Makgoba, the Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Influences · [40:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2422)

> "I'm realizing the importance of relationships even more. And so paying attention to those that I love and giving the time and prioritizing them as being more important than anything else excites me,"
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Living an examined life · [40:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2443)

> "Pay attention to what matters most to you, and really act from your true self without excuses, without procrastination. Act from that essence of who you are."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [42:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2540)

> "it's almost essential for the technology to go wrong. In order to check whether we can stay grounded, whether we can stay focused, whether we can keep a conversation going despite the noise."
> — Chris Breen, guest · topic: Personal leadership · [42:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991973_high.mp3#t=2578)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation Chris Breen (UCT GSB) In this episode host, Petro du Pisani, speaks to Emeritus Professor Chris Breen (UCT GSB) about his life, the transformations he has seen in others and himself, and some of the concepts he teaches in his course on Personal Leadership in Complex times. Chris has a carefully crafted teaching style which he describes as follows: 'In my sessions I try to disrupt our taken-for-granted assumptions and unconscious behavior by setting the class up as a real-life, real-time micro-laboratory where each participant gets a glimpse into themselves in action. I am looking to enhance the awareness of each participant as they develop their own personal leadership qualities necessary for carrying out their daily lives with wisdom and appropriate actions that are aligned with a commitment to adding to the strength of the human spirit both in their homes and in the work place.' In this episode Chris brings wisdom and lessons from his own life, and we also talk about 'Living an examined Life' (James Hollis), the three marriages (David Whyte) and Rumi's 'The Guest House.' This episode is part of a series of learning journey conversations Petro is having, as a result of meeting inspiring people as part of doing her EMBA through UCT's Graduate School of Business. Music : Duncan Breen - Goree island Find out more about Chris Breen · Find out more about UCT's EMBA · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #016 Kosheek Sewchurran | Creating worlds through conversation

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/016-creating-worlds-through-conversation/
- Date: 2020-07-13 (as at 2020-07-13)
- Guest: Kosheek Sewchurran
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Executive MBA learning journey, From technical to human systems, Student transformation stories, Everydayness and productivity, Leadership and character, Circular economy and organising, Creating worlds through conversation
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991974
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3

### About the guest: Kosheek Sewchurran

- Associate Professor · University of Cape Town (UCT) Graduate School of Business (GSB)
- Programme director for the UCT GSB executive MBA. Started work as a production control clerk, did a BSc through UNISA, honours in computer science and a master's in systems thinking, and joined UCT in 2006 for a PhD.

In their own words:

> "when I finished school, growing up in a poor working class neighborhood, there was, there wasn't any money to go to university. So I started work immediately. And I started work as a production control clerk," [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=292)

> "So I continued studying. I then did a BSc through UNISA in software engineering. I did, one with three majors, actually, with operations research and then one with statistics." [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=357)

> "a period in which I earned my, my honors in computer science and then a master's in systems thinking, and then starting to understand the limits of technical knowledge and thinking you can automate human beings." [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=434)

> "And then I joined UCT in 2006. So after a fifteen year, industrial experience, I registered for a PhD. And, I, for three years, read all the existential philosophers, Martin Heidegger," [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=519)

> "he kind of poached me, which is not good in academic politics, so he poached me to come and run the executive MBA, and I had abandoned the Faculty of Commerce at the time," [10:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=636)

> "There's a lot of examples of that. And, you know, I've been the director now for eight years, I think, thereabouts." [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1067)

> "And something that's unique about me is I've been a scholar and a practitioner all my life. And, I've realized that for positive or negative has shaped and made me a different kind of scholar. So a lot of the things that I build as theoretical concepts or Frameworks, I first have to validate in, in my own personal experience of it." [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1362)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani, starting her Executive MBA at UCT GSB, talks with its programme director, Associate Professor Kosheek Sewchurran. Kosheek recounts moving from a production control clerk job through technical study and industry, to a PhD in existential philosophy after a failed ERP project showed him the limits of technical knowledge. He describes student transformations, his work on leadership scholarship, the idea of 'everydayness' as a way to set small conscious goals, his circular economy research, and his view that people have more agency to create worlds than they think.

**Key ideas**

- Kosheek argues that coherent action needs purpose designed into both systems and people; well-engineered systems that do not resonate with people's purposes will not be used. ([13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=784) [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=809) [13:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=813))
- Kosheek says a failed enterprise resource planning implementation around 2003-2004 made him realise how little he knew about people and prompted his PhD. ([12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=756) [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=760) [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=822))
- Kosheek holds that strategy and leadership scholarship needs to be remade and that he validates his frameworks in his own experience as scholar and practitioner. ([16:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=962) [22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1356) [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1362))
- Kosheek describes the EMBA as shifting students' will, citing Simon Alston, Patizwe Malenga and Alex Byrne as examples of changed careers and ways of being. ([17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1069) [18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1108) [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1158) [21:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1309) [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1501))
- Kosheek frames 'everydayness' as reframing momentary existence: seeking conscious effort on little things that accumulate rather than full productive days. ([31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1874) [31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1906) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1917) [32:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1942))
- Kosheek argues character is evolved by practising it every day and becoming untangled from socialisation and role images. ([27:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1627) [35:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2153) [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2156))
- Kosheek expects organisations and economies to be recreated, with circular economy thinking putting human development before social and economic development. ([38:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2323) [38:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2323) [39:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2378) [39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2391))
- Kosheek's core message, drawn from John Shotter, is that the world emerges with us rather than being ready-made; Petro links this to Flores' idea that conversations create our world. ([41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2479) [41:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2490) [41:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2516) [41:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2518))

**Defining specific daily goals (everydayness in practice)** ([31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1874) [31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1906) [32:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1942) [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1971))

1. Reframe the day as momentary existence rather than searching for full productive days.
2. Avoid broad targets such as spending 12 hours reading VSM, which lead to disappointment.
3. Pick one concept, such as variety, to understand tomorrow.
4. Achieve it in a short effort, such as twenty minutes of reading.
5. Use the time that is then free, keeping motivation high from achieving a clearly defined goal.

**Lessons**

- Kosheek's ERP story suggests that technical excellence alone does not produce adoption; systems must connect with the purposes people hold. ([12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=756) [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=760) [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=809))
- Kosheek advises defining what you want to do very specifically so that achieving it raises motivation instead of producing disappointment. ([32:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1942) [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1971))
- When others are not on the same learning journey, Kosheek suggests remembering that people learn at different paces, without being lenient with those who do not carry their weight. ([25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1552) [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1641) [27:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1648))
- Kosheek says the earlier you learn not to chase arbitrary achievements, the easier creative achievement becomes; he himself does things his own way. ([34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2069) [34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2069))
- Petro describes treating study groups as a safe space to practise being human inside a system. ([20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1206))

**Who it's for:** Professionals considering or starting the UCT GSB Executive MBA, engineers and business improvement practitioners moving from technical systems to the human side of change, and leaders interested in reflective practice, character development and circular economy ideas.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Kosheek grew up in Pietermaritzburg, about 150 kilometres outside Durban, in a low-income working-class neighbourhood. ([03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=214))
- Kosheek joined UCT in 2006 and registered for a PhD after fifteen years of industrial experience. ([08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=519))
- Kosheek says he has been EMBA director for about eight years. ([17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1067))
- The failed ERP implementation that prompted his shift happened around 2003 or 2004. ([12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=756) [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=760))
- Simon Alston was hired as CEO of Wellness Warehouse after producing its strategy and business model in his EMBA position papers. ([18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1108))
- A more explicit leadership development scholarship was consciously tried for the first time in course five of the EMBA. ([27:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1669))
- Kosheek normally keeps two days aside for reading and writing. ([28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1738))
- Kosheek names Greek management scholar Harry Soukas as the scholar he draws on most. ([36:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2205))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What makes the UCT GSB Executive MBA different from a typical MBA?**
A: Petro says it does not focus on business functions but combines management practice, systems thinking and complexity with reflective practice and mindfulness. Kosheek says each course nudges students to expand their structure of interpretation until they see the same world as the facilitators. ([01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=68) [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1001))

**Q: Why did Kosheek Sewchurran move from industry into academia?**
A: After a failed ERP project around 2003-2004, he realised coherent action depends on designing purpose in people and that he knew little about people, so he registered for a PhD at UCT in 2006 after fifteen years in industry. ([08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=519) [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=756) [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=760) [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=784))

**Q: What kind of transformations do EMBA students go through?**
A: Kosheek cites Simon Alston, whose position papers led to him becoming CEO of Wellness Warehouse; Patizwe Malenga, who moved from technical work to business-model value creation; and Alex Byrne, who became less confrontational and studied Aristotle on the good life. ([17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1069) [18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1108) [21:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1309) [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1501))

**Q: What does 'everydayness' mean in Kosheek's teaching?**
A: He describes it as reframing the concept of momentary existence, so you seek conscious effort on little things that accumulate rather than full days of output. ([31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1906) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1917))

**Q: How can I set study goals without constantly feeling I've fallen short?**
A: Kosheek suggests replacing a target like 12 hours of reading VSM with understanding one concept, such as variety, in about twenty minutes, and defining goals specifically so achieving them boosts motivation. ([32:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1942) [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1971))

**Q: How should a leader deal with people who aren't on the same learning journey?**
A: Kosheek says the leadership philosophy encourages evolving your own and others' character through interaction, and that while you needn't be lenient with laggards, people learn at different paces. ([27:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1627) [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1641))

**Q: What books does Kosheek Sewchurran recommend?**
A: The book on joy by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, and Strategy as Indirect Action, which reframes strategy away from a directed process from situation A to situation B. ([37:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2251) [38:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2288))

**Q: What is Kosheek researching on the circular economy?**
A: He works with a farm in Priska in the Northern Cape that became an organic enterprise with circular principles downstream, and hopes to prove circular economies can be planned deliberately and scaled, putting human development first. ([38:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2323) [39:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2378) [39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2391) [40:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2431))

**Q: What is the one message Kosheek would share with everyone?**
A: That human beings have more agency than they think to create worlds; drawing on John Shotter, the world is not ready-made but emerges with us as we go along. ([41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2479) [41:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2490))


### Passage: From production clerk to systems thinking master's [04:52–07:29, 363 words]

Note (AI): Kosheek traces his path from a clerk job with no money for university through evening study to the limits of technical knowledge.

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=292):
> when I finished school, growing up in a poor working class neighborhood, there was, there wasn't any money to go to university. So I started work immediately. And I started work as a production control clerk, you know, somebody who tries to capture production records and machine logs and, and information out of a production plant. That was my first job, and whilst doing my first job, I started, studying towards a diploma data metrics, which was, a computer programming qualification at the time. And my first job was a combination of this clerical activity and trying to, understand and learn about how to program the computers I was working in.

Petro du Pisani, host [05:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=338):
> And then what happened?

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=340):
> Yeah, it's quite interesting. I mean, my first job exposed me to, a work environment, and with that, I became more ambitious when in terms of trying to do complex technical things. So I continued studying. I then did a BSc through UNISA in software engineering. I did, one with three majors, actually, with operations research and then one with statistics. I was fascinated by plant optimization and the kind of work industrial engineers, really get trained to do. So I had this dual career, you know, studying in the evenings and working during the day and working as a, a analyst programmer, a process analyst. So I had this dual path through life, learning and then trying to practice what I learned during the day. And, I did that for probably ten years. So I, you know, I was the typical corporate athlete trying to be as productive and ambitious and until you, until you fail. And I think, by, you know, the, the first ten years was about becoming technically proficient and excellent, and the next half a decade was about, learning how to fail and learning how to transcend the failure and the politics. And then it brought me to the limits of technical knowledge, which was, you know, a period in which I earned my, my honors in computer science and then a master's in systems thinking, and then starting to understand the limits of technical knowledge and thinking you can automate human beings.


### Passage: PhD in philosophy and being poached to run the EMBA [07:59–10:51, 411 words]

Note (AI): Explains why an engineer turned to existential philosophy and how he came to direct the UCT GSB executive MBA.

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=479):
> understanding politics and understanding how, you know, I was young, much younger then, so I was, I was intrigued by the lived experience, of working in these environments. I was also intrigued that, you know, human beings do not behave as, according to the expectations we have about them. And is there a different way to understand human beings so that you could, you know, you could design things that take the best of a human performance and complement that human performance with technology or ways in which you can enhance it? And then I joined UCT in 2006. So after a fifteen year, industrial experience, I registered for a PhD. And, I, for three years, read all the existential philosophers, Martin Heidegger, you know, Really, on the one hand, what's the purpose of a human life? And on the other hand, how do you deal competently with the lived experience of being human? And, I was fascinated to find out at the end of it all that, you know, that, this opened up a whole new world for me, a whole new world of, scholarship that I could try to untangle and revitalize some of the pedagogy for project management, how do we train business analysts. And that period was an intense learning period, and it was a period of me, understanding complexity, but from a philosophical point of view. And, I had then made connection with the dean of the business school at the time, Walter Bates. And Walter Bates and I shared thoughts about complexity from different points of view, and, and then I was pushed into a whole bigger world of, executive MBA scholarship and executive scholarship, and that was a world I realized I was truly most interested in working with and mastering. So it was about, you know, problems of will are problems that we seldom think about, but problems of will have fascinated philosophers for, for centuries, and mostly the pragmatist philosophers. So Walter Bates and I had a really good relationship, and I was, head of department of, a department in commerce, and he was a dean of the business school at the time. And he kind of poached me, which is not good in academic politics, so he poached me to come and run the executive MBA, and I had abandoned the Faculty of Commerce at the time, and, I haven't looked back. I mean, I'm still learning so much and inquiring.


### Passage: The failed ERP project as a turning point [12:36–14:05, 194 words]

Note (AI): A concrete failure that led Kosheek to see purpose in people as the condition for systems being used.

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=756):
> So it was about 2003 or 2004. I was in, a large-scale expansion project, and, we were implementing, an enterprise resource planning system, and it was the wrong decision, but we'd spent millions trying to do it. And, we had to get to a point of accepting we'd made a mistake and, deciding we had to build something different. So in that period, I understood then that, you can only get organized, coherent action going if you understand how to design purpose in systems and in people. And, it was a humbling journey when you, when you start to understand that the, you know, you could design the best, engineering systems. If they don't resonate with the purposes people have, they're just not going to see it, and they're just not going to use it. Then I, I realized I knew so little about people. I was, you know, I was so skilled in everything else. And, I also realized that the practice of strategy, the practice of, leadership was not taking into consideration enough of the lived reality of, every moment of being in these situations. Then I decided a PhD would work.


### Passage: Simon Alston's shift from engineering to creating value [17:49–19:32, 268 words]

Note (AI): A named example of an EMBA student whose programme work led to him being hired as CEO of Wellness Warehouse.

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [17:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1069):
> I've been the director now for eight years, I think, thereabouts. So the one person, most recent example, is a colleague called Simon Alston. He's the CEO of Wellness Warehouse. He came onto the program as a asset manager, really, competent technically, engineering financial growth. And Simon and I had, a deep discussion about what he'd like to do, and he says, you know, he's tired of engineering value. He wants to create value. But he doesn't know quite whether that's the world he'd like, but he'd like to discover how to do it, and then if he'd like that world. And, Simon Alston in his position paper four and position papers three, whilst being an investor in Wellness Warehouse, produced a strategy and a business model to take it into a period of sustained growth. And it was such a good piece of thinking that then they hired him to be the CEO. So he had this dual responsibility of having the investor, but Simon had discovered a joy of running a business that I had seen him, grow energy with enthusiasm, and he was working harder, but having probably twice as much fun, but at the same time creating, value for people all around him. You know, he was in a productive part of the economy, if you want to call it that. So that's one story. And then I think it's important because I think the executive MBA shifted his will and disclosed a whole new world for him. And, you know, the, the possibilities are just limitless of what he's going to do next.


### Passage: Everydayness: reframing the day into small conscious efforts [31:14–33:05, 291 words]

Note (AI): Kosheek's practical advice on setting specific, small learning goals instead of unrealistic full-day targets.

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [31:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1874):
> I'll tell you how I see it. The struggle with all of us, Petro, I think the, the struggle in you in particular is similar to most, I would say people who want to produce impact in their lives and better human performances. We drive ourselves really hard, and I think the, the idea is to reframe what we consider as a day or reframe the idea of, what we consider And everydayness in particular is trying to reframe the concept of momentary existence in the world. And I think when you reframe that, then I think you, you're not searching for full days. You're searching for conscious effort on little things and seeing them accumulate. So you, you do become productive, I'd say. I, I would say that you become more conscious, more productive, but you also start to understand how you can trick yourself into better performances. Because, you know, it's like a simple example would be, if you put down, I need to spend 12 hours tomorrow reading VSM, you're going to be utterly disappointed that you're never going to get there. On the one hand, it's not practical, but if you took a little bit of time and said, I want to read about, if you take one concept, variety, I want to understand variety tomorrow. You could understand variety from a twenty minutes reading effort. Then you realize I've got a whole day free now. What else can I do? So it's about how specifically do you define what you want to do so that the motivation when you've achieved it is much higher, and you don't end up with disappointments about poor performance when there was no real chance you'll get there in any case.


### Passage: Circular economy and the Priska farm experiment [38:43–40:54, 356 words]

Note (AI): Outlines Kosheek's current research on putting human development first and scaling circular economy principles.

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [38:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2323):
> I think we're going to recreate the construct of the organization, and we're gonna recreate the construct of economy. We're probably going to bring into being what we call a circular economy or circular economy ideas, and we're gonna recreate organization to unbounded organizing. You know, those are the two interesting pieces of work that I think, are begging for Scaling and growing and evolution. So I'm busy with some research at the moment on those two concepts.

Petro du Pisani, host [39:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2354):
> Tell me a little bit more about that. What are you thinking about it so far?

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [39:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2357):
> So there's a, the circular economy is about how do we, how do we bring human beings and their direct labor and value that as a process by which these human beings acquire human development. Now we often think about economic development, then you might get social development, then you might get human development. But the circular economy thinking is rephrased and says you first get human development, then you get social development, then you might or might not get economic development in the way we're thinking about it. And it's done through the, you know, there's a little farm in the Northern Cape in Priska that I'm working with the farm, there was a farmer and his wife, who have changed the farm into an organic farming enterprise. But together with that, they've created all kinds of circular economy principles in the downstream industries. And, we're just thinking about how to scale that, you know, and so the, the scaling of it is to value human labor, but also the human development that goes through with the human labor. So it's probably a mouthful now, but that's really what I'm experimenting with.

Petro du Pisani, host [40:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2427):
> And what are you hoping to achieve or prove with this?

Kosheek Sewchurran, guest [40:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2431):
> So I'm hoping we can prove that circular economies can be planned by being more deliberate about them, and we can scale them. So I'm hoping that would be some outcomes we can try and test out to change the climate question, but also to change the good nutritious food and respecting the, the biosphere a lot more.


### Quotes

> "If they don't resonate with the purposes people have, they're just not going to see it, and they're just not going to use it."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [13:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=813)

> "I realized I knew so little about people. I was, you know, I was so skilled in everything else."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=822)

> "he's tired of engineering value. He wants to create value."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [18:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1095)

> "he was working harder, but having probably twice as much fun, but at the same time creating, value for people all around him."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [19:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1144)

> "everything I try to tell students in class, I've obviously tried and, and contemplated in my personal life."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [22:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1356)

> "but I think sometimes just people just learn at different paces."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [27:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1648)

> "you're not searching for full days. You're searching for conscious effort on little things and seeing them accumulate."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1917)

> "I've given up on being a Typical scholar. That word doesn't exist, you know."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2069)

> "you are evolving your character by the, by practicing your character every day,"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [35:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2156)

> "we think the world is already made for us to occupy, and actually the world emerges with us as we go along."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · [41:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2490)

> "through our conversations, we create the world in which we live."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [41:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2518)


### Claims

> "This degree doesn't focus on business functions like a typical MBA, but brings together management practice, systems thinking, and understanding complexity, all while studying reflective practice and practicing mindfulness."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=68)

> "I grew up in a little town called Peter Maritzburg, which is about a hundred and fifty kilometers outside of Durban. And it is a low-income, you know, working-class neighborhood."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Early life · [03:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=214)

> "when I finished school, growing up in a poor working class neighborhood, there was, there wasn't any money to go to university. So I started work immediately. And I started work as a production control clerk,"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Career journey · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=292)

> "So I continued studying. I then did a BSc through UNISA in software engineering. I did, one with three majors, actually, with operations research and then one with statistics."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Career journey · [05:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=357)

> "And I think, by, you know, the, the first ten years was about becoming technically proficient and excellent, and the next half a decade was about, learning how to fail and learning how to transcend the failure and the politics."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Career journey · [06:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=414)

> "a period in which I earned my, my honors in computer science and then a master's in systems thinking, and then starting to understand the limits of technical knowledge and thinking you can automate human beings."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: From technical to human systems · [07:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=434)

> "I was also intrigued that, you know, human beings do not behave as, according to the expectations we have about them."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: From technical to human systems · [08:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=493)

> "And then I joined UCT in 2006. So after a fifteen year, industrial experience, I registered for a PhD. And, I, for three years, read all the existential philosophers, Martin Heidegger,"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Career journey · [08:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=519)

> "he kind of poached me, which is not good in academic politics, so he poached me to come and run the executive MBA, and I had abandoned the Faculty of Commerce at the time,"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [10:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=636)

> "what I've realized, probably over the last two or three years, is that you can't do that in isolation. You can't actually try and improve some, if there's a, if there are any humans involved in the whole process, there's no way you can automate beyond a place."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: From technical to human systems · [11:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=668)

> "I was in, a large-scale expansion project, and, we were implementing, an enterprise resource planning system, and it was the wrong decision, but we'd spent millions trying to do it."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: From technical to human systems · [12:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=760)

> "So in that period, I understood then that, you can only get organized, coherent action going if you understand how to design purpose in systems and in people."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: From technical to human systems · [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=784)

> "you could design the best, engineering systems. If they don't resonate with the purposes people have, they're just not going to see it, and they're just not going to use it."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: From technical to human systems · [13:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=809)

> "I also realized that the practice of strategy, the practice of, leadership was not taking into consideration enough of the lived reality of, every moment of being in these situations."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Leadership and character · [13:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=829)

> "the things I want to be involved in, like strategy and leadership, that scholarship was, was just identified as having to be remade. So I'm now participating in that process of remaking that scholarship."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Management scholarship · [16:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=962)

> "we nudge you with each course to expand your structure of interpretation. And you will see as we go along that, we leave you at a point in the end where you and I and all the other facilitators see the same world,"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [16:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1001)

> "There's a lot of examples of that. And, you know, I've been the director now for eight years, I think, thereabouts."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1067)

> "Simon Alston in his position paper four and position papers three, whilst being an investor in Wellness Warehouse, produced a strategy and a business model to take it into a period of sustained growth. And it was such a good piece of thinking that then they hired him to be the CEO."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Student transformation stories · [18:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1108)

> "And then I think it's important because I think the executive MBA shifted his will and disclosed a whole new world for him."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Student transformation stories · [19:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1158)

> "we've created a little safe space within our groups and we say this is where we have to practice these things. If we can't practice them here, where else are we going to practice them?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Executive MBA learning journey · [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1206)

> "the role of a mentor is to have conversations with your mentee to light a spark or let them solve their own problems."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mentoring · [20:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1252)

> "he was a computer scientist, I think, who was working for LifeHealth, and then he got to the end of creating value as a technical professional, and he wanted to be involved in creating value at a, at a business model level"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Student transformation stories · [21:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1309)

> "And something that's unique about me is I've been a scholar and a practitioner all my life. And, I've realized that for positive or negative has shaped and made me a different kind of scholar. So a lot of the things that I build as theoretical concepts or Frameworks, I first have to validate in, in my own personal experience of it."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Management scholarship · [22:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1362)

> "Alex slowly unwound himself and discovered a new way of being that made him more fragile, but opened him up to such a different world. And in his final research project, he read Aristotle, and he, was thinking about how to live a good life."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Student transformation stories · [25:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1501)

> "you're learning, how to have nonviolent communication and you're learning how to have conversations for action and all those sort of things, you can sometimes get quite impatient with others who aren't on the same journey as you."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leadership and character · [25:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1552)

> "And, I think you, you do realize in the leadership philosophy we encourage that you evolve your own character and the character of others in your personal interaction."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Leadership and character · [27:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1627)

> "it doesn't mean you have to be lenient and with people who are generally laggards and don't carry their weight, but I think sometimes just people just learn at different paces."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Leadership and character · [27:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1641)

> "to make more explicit and coherent the leadership development scholarship on the executive MBA. And it's the first year, we've consciously tried it out, in course five. And at the same time, it's also changing the research project, so people could inquire into their leadership practice."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Leadership and character · [27:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1669)

> "typically it's the days when I'm reading and writing. I normally try to keep two days aside for that."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Everydayness and productivity · [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1738)

> "And everydayness in particular is trying to reframe the concept of momentary existence in the world. And I think when you reframe that, then I think you, you're not searching for full days. You're searching for conscious effort on little things and seeing them accumulate."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Everydayness and productivity · [31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1906)

> "if you put down, I need to spend 12 hours tomorrow reading VSM, you're going to be utterly disappointed that you're never going to get there. On the one hand, it's not practical, but if you took a little bit of time and said, I want to read about, if you take one concept, variety, I want to understand variety tomorrow. You could understand variety from a twenty minutes reading effort."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Everydayness and productivity · [32:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1942)

> "So it's about how specifically do you define what you want to do so that the motivation when you've achieved it is much higher, and you don't end up with disappointments about poor performance when there was no real chance you'll get there in any case."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Everydayness and productivity · [32:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=1971)

> "I don't want any one components of my life to rule my life. My work is not my life. My studying is not my life. the family I'm currently in is not my life. It's all components, and I want to enjoy all of them."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Everydayness and productivity · [33:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2006)

> "I've given up on being a Typical scholar. That word doesn't exist, you know. For me, it's I've always done things my way and I'll continue doing them my way. If they get recognized, they get recognized, but I'm not chasing an achievement as such."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Management scholarship · [34:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2069)

> "as soon as you start to understand that you are evolving your character by the, by practicing your character every day, and this time spent on understanding who you are and why you are, and becoming more untangled from all of the socialization"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Leadership and character · [35:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2153)

> "the scholar I draw on most of all is a guy called Harry Soukas. He's a Greek management scholar. You could call him a philosopher as well. His work has profoundly influenced my thinking and my own scholarship."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Management scholarship · [36:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2205)

> "the one that they will often prescribe is the book on joy by the Dalai Lama and, Desmond Tutu. It, the, the language is simple, but the lessons are just profound."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Recommended reading · [37:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2251)

> "That book is about thoughts on strategy that reframe it from the way it's currently positioned. that strategy is, quite a directed process to take an organization from situation A to situation B, and it reframes that,"
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Recommended reading · [38:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2288)

> "I think we're going to recreate the construct of the organization, and we're gonna recreate the construct of economy. We're probably going to bring into being what we call a circular economy or circular economy ideas, and we're gonna recreate organization to unbounded organizing."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Circular economy and organising · [38:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2323)

> "But the circular economy thinking is rephrased and says you first get human development, then you get social development, then you might or might not get economic development in the way we're thinking about it."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Circular economy and organising · [39:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2378)

> "there's a little farm in the Northern Cape in Priska that I'm working with the farm, there was a farmer and his wife, who have changed the farm into an organic farming enterprise. But together with that, they've created all kinds of circular economy principles in the downstream industries."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Circular economy and organising · [39:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2391)

> "I'm hoping we can prove that circular economies can be planned by being more deliberate about them, and we can scale them."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Circular economy and organising · [40:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2431)

> "I think human beings have more agency than they think they have to create worlds. And it comes from a John Shotter quote that, you know, we, we think the world is already made for us to occupy, and actually the world emerges with us as we go along."
> — Kosheek Sewchurran, guest · topic: Creating worlds through conversation · [41:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2479)

> "one of the things that he says is that through our conversations, we create the world in which we live."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Creating worlds through conversation · [41:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991974_high.mp3#t=2516)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

A learning journey conversation Kosheek Sewchurran (UCT GSB | Associate Professor) In this episode host Petro du Pisani speaks to Associate Professor Kosheek Sewchurran, who is the programme director for the University of Cape Town (UCT) Graduate School of Business (GSB) executive MBA. As Petro embarks on her EMBA, she will speak to some of the amazing human beings she will encounter along the way. Associate Professor Sewchurran has designed this programme in such a way as to nurture and create executives who are able, in their actions and their being, to lead authentically. In this episode we talk about Kosheek's journey, some of the major transformations he has seen in people and what the burning questions are that keep him excited every day. We talk about 'everydayness', living in the moment and how we can create worlds through conversation." Music : Deliberate Thought | Kevin MacLeod (YouTube Music Library) Find out more about the UCT GSB EMBA � Connect with Associate Professor Sewchurran on LinkedIn � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #015 Tracey Swanepoel, Lisa Shippey and Bernard Swanepoel | The power of storytelling to inspire change

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/015-the-power-of-storytelling-to-inspire/
- Date: 2020-01-07 (as at 2020-01-07)
- Guest: Tracey Swanepoel, Bernard Swanepoel, Lisa Shippey
- Host: Petro du Pisani, Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Storytelling for leaders, Communicating business strategy, Listening to employees, Mining industry leadership, Human connection at work, Authenticity and vulnerability
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991976
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3

### About the guest: Tracey Swanepoel

- Thinkspiration
- Grew up in Joburg and had a tennis scholarship to a US university. Did a BA communication, worked as a strategic planner in advertising, wrote an MBA dissertation on applying story internally, and started Thinkspiration.

In their own words:

> "I went, I got a scholarship to a US university. And I think, you know, a lot of things that I learned on the tennis court, helped me still in the work that I do today." [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=167)

> "I then went to, UJ, in those days it was Rao, and I studied communication. I did a BA communication. I went into advertising. and I, I think that's where I was a strategic planner, but that's where my love for turning a sort of dry, complicated business strategy into a story that would be compelling, that would be emotional, that would influence people, that's where it really started." [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=203)

> "Story, segmentation, branding, and I did my MBA dissertation on that, very theoretical. I had lots of ideas, and I was really looking for a client or a place to see if any of this would work." [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=291)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### About the guest: Bernard Swanepoel

- Thinkspiration
- Grew up in Rustenburg and went into mining in the early eighties. Was asked to become managing director of Harmony around 1993 or 1994, when it was earmarked for closure, and turned it around to profitability.

In their own words:

> "I went into mining, and that coincided with the, with the time in the early eighties when the National Union of Mine Workers actually changed the whole sort of dynamic of the country," [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=399)

> "and to cut a long story short, very briefly after I got at, Beatrix, I was asked to become the managing director of Harmony. Must have been about 1993 or four thereabout." [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=471)

> "Of course, it didn't close. We managed to turn it around, made it profitable, set out on a growth strategy," [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=501)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### About the guest: Lisa Shippey

- director · Thinkspiration
- Worked in NGOs with community, coaching, counseling and training. Her background is in psychology and social psychology.

In their own words:

> "in terms of career, working in NGOs with community, coaching, counseling, training, and all of this time just loving the idea of putting ideas and learning together with helping people." [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=648)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

The host speaks with three people from Thinkspiration about using storytelling to make business strategy understandable at every level of an organisation. Tracey Swanepoel brings an advertising and communication background. Bernard Swanepoel draws on his time turning around the Harmony gold mine. Lisa Shippey brings NGO and psychology experience and practical story templates. They share personal stories, argue that frontline listening reveals safety risks and ideas, and give tips on structuring short, purposeful and authentic stories.

**Key ideas**

- Bernard argues that everyone is already a storyteller at home but switches to PowerPoint and jargon at work, so storytelling can be taught to anybody. ([15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=907) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1063))
- Tracey argues that the classic sender–message–receiver model is backwards and that communication should start with the receiver and what's in it for them. ([31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1893) [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1898))
- Bernard holds that frontline people care and have practical suggestions, and that the gap between strategy and the ground costs companies billions of rand. ([32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1930) [33:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2020) [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2073))
- The host and Bernard describe listening to workers as cheap and powerful: it surfaces safety risks and makes people feel seen. ([35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2158) [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2268) [38:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2301))
- Lisa describes templates, such as a strategy story moving from past to change to now to future, and Anecdote's recipe for structuring a story. ([16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=981) [45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761))
- Tracey and Bernard argue that stories demand vulnerability and authenticity, and that this vulnerability draws people in. ([48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2892) [48:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2913) [49:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2987))
- Tracey names listening, storytelling and focusing on strengths as the three underpins of a better workplace. ([57:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3433))

**Anecdote story recipe (as described by Lisa Shippey)** ([45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761))

1. Start with a time or place marker: when or where something happened.
2. Describe a series of events.
3. Include an interaction between people.
4. End with a wow moment or realisation connected to a business point.

**Lessons**

- Tracey advises knowing the basics of a story, keeping it short and being clear on the business point it makes. ([44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2675) [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2697))
- Bernard advises thinking about the audience and how to connect before every meeting, and being deliberate about using stories. ([19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1195) [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2566))
- Lisa suggests drawing stories out of others by asking questions such as 'tell me about a time when'. ([19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1151))
- Bernard's advice to young leaders is to learn to listen, then learn to communicate through stories. ([42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2526))
- Tracey warns that incentives can backfire, using her son's reading programme as the example. ([44:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2655))

**Who it's for:** Leaders, managers, trainers and change or business improvement practitioners who need to explain strategy to diverse workforces, especially in mining or other large operational settings in South Africa, and anyone wanting practical storytelling techniques.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Bernard says he was asked to become managing director of Harmony in about 1993 or 1994. ([07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=471))
- Harmony's official business plan was called 'Closure with Dignity', affecting about forty thousand miners, according to Bernard. ([08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=485))
- The host says his task force held over 2000 conversations across operations. ([30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1824))
- Thinkspiration's storytelling material comes from Anecdote, a partner based in Australia, according to Lisa. ([45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742))
- Bernard entered mining in the early eighties, when the National Union of Mine Workers changed the industry's dynamic. ([06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=399))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Can anyone learn to tell stories at work, or do you need natural talent?**
A: Bernard says you can teach anybody because everyone already tells stories. The skill lies in refining them, for example keeping a story to ninety seconds. Tracey adds that it is more about unlearning the abstract workplace language. ([17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1029) [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1063) [18:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1088))

**Q: How should I structure a story about a strategy change?**
A: Lisa suggests starting with what happened in the past, then what happened to make change necessary, then what we are going to do now, and finally where we're going. ([16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=981))

**Q: What makes a good business anecdote?**
A: Lisa, citing the Anecdote recipe, lists a time or place marker, a series of events, an interaction between people, and a wow moment or realisation connected to a business point. She also stresses including emotion. ([45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742) [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761))

**Q: Why don't frontline workers buy into corporate strategy?**
A: Bernard says strategy gets translated into 'higher English' as it moves up the organisation. Leaders say 'we are going north' but forget to tell their people. This misalignment costs billions of rand. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=524) [32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1930) [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2073))

**Q: How can listening to employees improve safety?**
A: The host says that on a fatality-elimination task force, workers asked to tell their stories pointed out where the next fatality would come from, such as a rail crossing without a gate. ([29:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1762) [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2158) [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2268))

**Q: Why is being vulnerable important when telling stories at work?**
A: Tracey says stories nearly always reveal something about yourself, so leaders must be prepared to be seen. Bernard argues that this vulnerability draws people in, even though it runs against corporate culture. ([48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2892) [49:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2987))

**Q: What does Thinkspiration do?**
A: According to Tracey and Lisa, it distils strategies into compelling stories and visual strategy maps built on a metaphor, and trains leaders in oral storytelling. Tracey also names listening, storytelling and focusing on strengths as its three underpins of a better workplace. ([12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=745) [55:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3356) [57:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3433))

**Q: How did Bernard use a personal story to win over a hostile audience?**
A: He told an anti-mining group about his father being retrenched and how that led him into mining. He connected as a human being rather than as an ex-CEO and received a standing applause. ([28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1697) [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1722) [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1738))


### Passage: From advertising to storytelling inside the gold mines [03:51–06:09, 391 words]

Note (AI): Tracey explains how she moved from external advertising to applying story inside companies, and why mining became her test case.

Tracey Swanepoel, guest [03:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=231):
> I spent quite a long time in advertising, a few years, at the big agencies, but in that process, I think what I realized was, you know, advertising, the question you always ask is, what makes this different? What makes us different, the company? And nine times out of ten, the answer comes back as our people. You know, our people are these amazing, you know, they're amazing, and they, they, they are differentiator. And it got me interested, it sparked my interest in, are the people, do they know that they are sort of the, the key deliverers of, of the competitive advantage? So I got interested in, and, and went to, to speak to some of these people and, you know, find out, like, are they sort of creating the magic there? And of course, you can imagine, they were like, oh. If only this day would end, you know. So what happened was I perceived there to be a real opportunity inside companies to apply some of the principles that I'd seen work very effectively externally in the advertising space. Story, segmentation, branding, and I did my MBA dissertation on that, very theoretical. I had lots of ideas, and I was really looking for a client or a place to see if any of this would work. And that's where I intersected with, in a very unlikely way, the gold mining industry, who at the time, I mean, mining, as you know, it's sort of almost a microcosm of our society. It's got every demographic, and one of the key challenges is how do you get a rock drill operator to understand, care about, believe, deliver, you know, on things like strategy that are conceptually In the boardroom. So I guess the big thing that, that happened there was I found a client, that had a, that I guess there was an alignment in terms of, what, what we wanted to do, you know, in terms of, of changing how things were, and that was harmony. And I feel like I shouldn't, I should leave it there and carry on the story, but, but that was the beginning of quite a life-changing experience in terms of career, personally, in terms of really being able to deliver on things that, that change people's lives and, and do things differently.


### Passage: Harmony's turnaround and the unconvinced workforce [08:05–09:47, 309 words]

Note (AI): Bernard describes turning around a mine slated for closure and realising that his workers had not bought into the celebrated strategy.

Bernard Swanepoel, guest [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=485):
> Harmony was, was interesting because it was earmarked for closure. Its official business plan was called Closure with Dignity. You can imagine the excitement in the life of forty thousand miners to go underground into a harsh environment, to pursue closure with dignity, you know. Of course, it didn't close. We managed to turn it around, made it profitable, set out on a growth strategy, and that got me to the point where it was weird. It was great. I mean, you know, I was on the front page of newspapers, magazines, wrote about the magic Harmony Way. When I presented in New Orleans or London, you know, often it was like, you know, standing room only, and yet back at home, back in Malcolm in a free state, I got a sense that the workers were not as excited about this corporate strategy as the shareholders and my management team was. And so I set out to say, there must be a way. If we are a great story, if this harmony story is, is so good, why is it that most of the people in the company don't feel that, don't live that, you know, aren't aligned? And, and so, I, I really came from the industry, I knew what didn't work, I, had no idea what would work. And so I started looking around for fresh ideas, different ideas, and bumped into a crazy bunch of people of which Tracey was just one. To be fair, she was probably the most normal of that crazy bunch, you know what I mean? And so, that's really the sort of the journey up to when I, as a, as a sort of supposedly successful, CEO and business leader, realized that if we want to, bring our people along, we're gonna have to, do things, a little bit differently.


### Passage: Two mining boardrooms and the meeting that changed Tracey's career [22:19–25:04, 534 words]

Note (AI): This is a vivid personal story that contrasts a patronising conventional executive team with Harmony's informal leadership, and it shows how Thinkspiration's founding client came about.

Tracey Swanepoel, guest [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1339):
> the first meeting was, on the Monday, and we, we walked into this very, sort of conventional mining company, sort of plush carpets, you know, pictures on the wall of old founders looking down at you. And, you know, I'll never forget that meeting of sort of, there were sort of ten male white faces looking at me across that polished mahogany table as I sort of, you know, expounded on my views of how we needed to change the industry. And the, the CEO of that company at the time sort of looked me up and down and said, so, lovey, do you really expect me to believe you're gonna go out there and change the way that my mines operate? And, I mean, it was, it was so patronizing, and I sort of died a thousand deaths, and I thought, that's it, I'm not doing that. So I said to my partner, listen, there is no ways. we're not doing this, we're not going. And he said, listen, but we've got this, this Harmony meeting set up for Thursday. We've got to do it. Like, we can't get out of it. It's with the executive team. And I said, listen, I'm not going. You go. I'm, you know, anyway, long story short, he convinced me to go along, and it really was, you know, as Monty Python says, and now for something completely different. Harmony at the time had just done a hostile takeover of Ranfontein. I don't think Ranfontein liked them very much, because they didn't have any officers. So we had to meet at the, the Ranfontein Club, which was this, in this, I don't think the club was too bad, but they put us in an awful room of sort of musty and old smelling and mismatched tables and chairs. And I remember standing there waiting for this, you know, at the time Harmony's profile in the press was very high, and they, you know, called sort of mavericks of the industry, and I thought, how are they going to arrive? You know, are they going to come in a helicopter or how, you know? And out of the corner of my eye, I spotted a I thought it was a waiter in sort of jeans, very, very informally dressed, sort of golf shirt, slip slops, and I was just about to, to ask him, you know, please bring me another Diet Coke, and this guy stepped forward and said, hi, I'm Bernard Swanepoel. So luckily I didn't make that mistake. but the meeting that followed with Bernard and his team was just, you know, a, a life-changing meeting because, you know, yes, it was gold mining, not an industry that I ever thought, or mining, that I ever thought I would go into, but it was about what, you know, Harmony's purpose was, to change the industry, to do things differently, to turn conventional thinking on its head. and, and, you know, that, that Harmony story was something that was real, and that I bought into right from the outset. So if, in answer to your question, it was the Harmony story that really did change my life.


### Passage: Change house conversations and the cost of misalignment [32:10–35:09, 510 words]

Note (AI): Bernard argues from experience that frontline people care and have practical ideas, and that failing to connect strategy to them costs companies heavily.

Bernard Swanepoel, guest [32:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1930):
> Twenty-one year old graduate. I was very clever in my own mind. I just had a mining engineering degree, and I was forced to go through all the levels in organization, starting to get my shift to get a blasting license to become a miner. Now, in those days, you then had to share the change houses with the miners. That's where towards the end of the apartheid years, so there was job reservation. these were old white men, often having finished matric or so, because, I mean, it was job protection, and mining was one of the sort of protected jobs. And I would sit in the change house there. Now, you know what it's like in a change house at the end of the shift. Most men, it's not like the Springbok change house. We were not wearing, underpants in the national colors. It's typically naked old men sitting around, being served their bad coffee by the change house boss boy, as they were called. And what amazed me was the quality of conversations. When I was a graduate, I was young, I was inexperienced, I was living the challenges of mining on a marginal, loss-making gold mine, and some of these guys had deep insight, and all of them cared. Then you would go out, and the conversations changed, and you would report to the shift boss, and he would say, yeah, yeah, but you can't say that, you know, we have to say we're on target, you know. And by the time you, you know, spoke to the mine captain, this was now higher English and no longer factual. And it, it stayed with me throughout my career that deeper into the organization, firstly, the people care, and secondly, they actually have got some really significant practical suggestions, as per your own story. You know, if you go and you find the stories in the organization, that may not necessarily change the strategy, but it will make the link between the strategy and what is happening on the ground real. And that's what we do in Thinkspiration, as you know. I mean, Tracey's got an amazing ability to conceptualize all these McKinsey PowerPoint slides into a visual story, an analogy. But before you can Make that a successful leadership and communication tool, you need to go onto the ground, under the ground, in some cases, and go and listen to the people, and hear where they are, because that, that disconnect is the misalignment or the lack of alignment which is costing companies billions and billions and billions of rand, because we say we are going north, and we forgot to tell our people, and they don't know where north is, and they don't agree with north, and so they are off into their own directions, and no disciplinary procedure or standing operating procedure or anything can fix that. So the leadership obligation of painting a compelling future That grounded in the reality of where your people, are at that time. I mean, that's leadership 101.


### Passage: Forty minutes with a train operator [35:58–38:44, 575 words]

Note (AI): The host's safety-listening story, together with Bernard's response, shows how simply listening surfaces safety risks and builds commitment at almost no cost.

Petro du Pisani, host [35:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2158):
> Through the thousands of conversations our group had last year, I, I came to the conclusion that almost every single person we spoke to wanted to make a difference. They wanted to, they wanted to be able to show up at work and add value and be a person who's actually, I didn't come across a, a certain, a single person who was there to create chaos. You know what I mean? They were all there to, what, they want to provide for their families, they want to go home on time, they don't want to have to be underground for longer than they have to be. And, you know, just getting into a, a train carriage or, with a, a, a train operator and spending his journey with him. So he, from, going from the, from the one side of the mine to the other side of the mine, roughly forty minutes, sit and just have a forty minute conversation with this person. And when you get off at the other side, he said, you know, nobody's ever done that. Nobody's ever, nobody's ever, from, I've never seen anybody from management come and sit for forty minutes with me next to you and listen to all the things that's bothering me. And he'd had a couple of simple suggestions, like he'd say, you see this crossing we're going through at the moment? It doesn't have a gate. So if he wanted to be a safer operation or prevent fatalities, that sort of thing, if you just put a gate for us here, you know, that closes over the road where I'm going over with my, my train, it's going to make a huge difference. That's the, that's the, that's the part, because you asked the question. So in your daily life of being this Train, driver, train operator, what are the things that bother you the most? You know, what are the things that you are most worried about? Which areas are where you get a feeling of that I don't want to actually be here? And they tell you. So all they take, there might be an appliance, and the person will take your hand literally and say, come, I want to show you. And they'll go, look, something's fallen down here, and it's not safe. And if you ask them to tell their stories, they'll tell you where the next fatality is coming from. They'll tell you, and then you can prevent it. But now,

Bernard Swanepoel, guest [37:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2276):
> imagine him going back tonight after shift. What is the story he goes and shares with wherever, whether he goes to a hostel or whether he goes back home? He says, you know what happened today? For the first time, somebody came and listened to me. He falls in love with the organization. I mean, that is how we fall in love. We can't shut up and listen enough to the other one. Later in life, we change it and we talk more and we fight. But no, it's the dynamic of I'm seen, I'm heard, I'm Important enough that somebody asked my opinion. I mean, it's for free. This is so cheap. Now, of course, it takes your time, but what are leaders there for? What are we there for if we're not there to listen to our people and to make them feel important? I mean, we can actually save on bonuses, dare I say.


### Passage: Practical tips for using stories as a manager [42:46–45:42, 565 words]

Note (AI): Tracey and Bernard give concrete advice: find everyday stories, tie each one to a business point, keep it short and be deliberate.

Petro du Pisani, host [42:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2566):
> Building upon, upon that theme, what techniques, tips, and tricks do you have for people who'd like to incorporate storytelling as their, in their repertoire of management tools?

Tracey Swanepoel, guest [42:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2577):
> It's about the mindset. So of course there are specific skills that you can learn about that make, you know, you can go from zero to a hundred quickly. And I think the great thing is that it's, it doesn't have to be this natural talent, you know, wow, you, it's actually a recipe. You, everybody can do this. so there are definite practical things that you can do, you know, specific story frameworks, et cetera. But even in the absence of that, it's really about thinking about stories that, things that happen every day all around us. and what is the, you know, what is the business point? That's what we call it. What is the point that, that you could use to make that, you know, to make a business point about it? I mean, my son, Zach, quite, quite a few years ago, our son, Zach, although I'd like to take ownership of him in this, but, he was busy, in about grade two, and they were, the teacher was very enthusiastic to get them to read more. Now, Zach always was a great reader, you know, so the, but the, she put in place an incentive program. She said, you know, kids, if you, the more, if you read for ten minutes a day, you'll get a little tick, and then when you've got ten ticks, you'll get a little apple on the tree, and then you'll have a full tree of apples and, and all of that, so all great. Zach, at the time, was reading for way longer than ten minutes, and then he started, as this program was introduced, only reading for ten minutes. So I said to him, but why are you reading for ten minutes? He said, because I've, I've done my ten minutes. And therein lies the problem of incentives. So, you know, stories are all around us, and I think the tip is really just to, to obviously know the basics, what is the story, to be able to make them short, to the point, and to know the point, the business point that you're making. That would be my, you know, my tips. I think,

Bernard Swanepoel, guest [44:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2687):
> I think those are absolutely the two key things, is the inner work environment, I mean, inner meeting, and there has to be a story with a purpose. There has to be a business reason for telling the story, and the shorter the better, and we all struggle with that, because, jeez, I mean, I need to give context, but after ten minutes, if you're still busy talking context, people have moved on. and then, I think the bold, the boldness to do, to be deliberate about it, you know, I really think Why is it that the moment we stand outside when, when the guys are smoking or, you know, when we drink coffee at the water cooler, then stories are okay, and it's al-almost as if when we walk through a set of glass doors into a boardroom, we need to be more formal. I think it's the deliberateness and the, and the go out to do that with an objective in mind is all I would add.


### Quotes

> "I learned the power of, of strategy, of outwitting, not out hitting your opponent,"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [02:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=177)

> "And so that resulted in my generation sort of gravitating to senior positions very, very quickly. And I mean, one of my colleagues used to joke that I was a shift boss and a mine captain for about five minutes each, and I mean, but we literally, you know, got to senior positions at, at young ages"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [07:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=425)

> "make people aware that, you know, a ninety-second version of a story is a hell of a lot more compelling than droning on for thirty minutes."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [17:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1063)

> "We are so much better together. We're so much better connecting with people who are different than us, coming from a different culture than us."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · [26:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1588)

> "Tracey was with me. She went and sat right at the door, you know, like any good wife, she was gonna make sure she's safe for the kids' sake, you know what I mean? So, and this was, this was a, a group, that was just anti-mining."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [27:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1661)

> "and we strip away the suits and the ties and the titles, and we're human beings, and we're actually all okay."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [28:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1738)

> "we've got the model backwards, you need to start with the receiver."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [31:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1898)

> "What are we there for if we're not there to listen to our people and to make them feel important? I mean, we can actually save on bonuses, dare I say."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [38:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2315)

> "It costs nothing, and it makes an incredible difference, but it takes time."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [39:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2355)

> "Tracey said to me, but have you ever met Duncan Mafilane? I said, of course I know who he is. He's, he's my problem, you know. Anyway, to make a really, long, longer story get to the point is, he insisted that he will only see me if I drive through on a Saturday morning to come and see him. So he's deliberately difficult. Went through to Virginia in the Free State, those days I was living in Johannesburg, and I sat and I chatted, and he gave me all the demands and why they are gonna go to the competition commission to block this deal"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [39:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2387)

> "That's why until we haven't connected as human beings, we are actually treating each other like robots."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [41:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2478)

> "because leaders need to be prepared to be seen. for the humans that they are. and people love that."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [48:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2913)

> "It, it goes to that we need to be authentic, we need to be who we really are, and that, comes with vulnerability, as Tracey said, and that is unfortunately not the corporate culture, it's not the male culture, it's not the white culture, and you bring all of that together into the corporate world in which we all interact, and you can see why The same guy who would shout and scream at rugby or cry at his daughter's wedding has to be this rough, ready sir, mister, suit and tie person, you know, with three secretaries between him and the world."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [49:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2942)

> "My current favorite is onboarding. I just want to be onboarded once, preferably in an ocean when I'm busy drowning."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3019)

> "Zach is, our son has sort of, you know, picked up a lot of this via osmosis. So he will say, he will, there was quite a few years ago, I don't know if you ever came across this, there was this little game that was called buzzword bingo. And you would sit in a meeting and you would cross them off. And Zach, you know, I told him about it one day and he now, if you use any of those phrases, he goes, buzzword bingo."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · [50:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3026)

> "make them understand why what they do is putting a man on the moon, not cleaning the toilets and, you know, in the NASA offices."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · [58:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3528)


### Claims

> "I went, I got a scholarship to a US university. And I think, you know, a lot of things that I learned on the tennis court, helped me still in the work that I do today."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Guest background · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=167)

> "I then went to, UJ, in those days it was Rao, and I studied communication. I did a BA communication. I went into advertising. and I, I think that's where I was a strategic planner, but that's where my love for turning a sort of dry, complicated business strategy into a story that would be compelling, that would be emotional, that would influence people, that's where it really started."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Guest background · [03:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=203)

> "you know, advertising, the question you always ask is, what makes this different? What makes us different, the company? And nine times out of ten, the answer comes back as our people."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [03:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=238)

> "Story, segmentation, branding, and I did my MBA dissertation on that, very theoretical. I had lots of ideas, and I was really looking for a client or a place to see if any of this would work."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Guest background · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=291)

> "It's got every demographic, and one of the key challenges is how do you get a rock drill operator to understand, care about, believe, deliver, you know, on things like strategy that are conceptually In the boardroom."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [05:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=323)

> "I went into mining, and that coincided with the, with the time in the early eighties when the National Union of Mine Workers actually changed the whole sort of dynamic of the country,"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=399)

> "and to cut a long story short, very briefly after I got at, Beatrix, I was asked to become the managing director of Harmony. Must have been about 1993 or four thereabout."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [07:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=471)

> "Harmony was, was interesting because it was earmarked for closure. Its official business plan was called Closure with Dignity. You can imagine the excitement in the life of forty thousand miners to go underground into a harsh environment, to pursue closure with dignity, you know."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [08:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=485)

> "Of course, it didn't close. We managed to turn it around, made it profitable, set out on a growth strategy,"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [08:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=501)

> "and yet back at home, back in Malcolm in a free state, I got a sense that the workers were not as excited about this corporate strategy as the shareholders and my management team was."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=524)

> "in terms of career, working in NGOs with community, coaching, counseling, training, and all of this time just loving the idea of putting ideas and learning together with helping people."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Guest background · [10:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=648)

> "Thinkspiration, which is very much an organization that's passionate about bringing humanity back into the workplace, but also striving for high performance at the same time."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [11:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=662)

> "helping companies communicate, distill their strategies into a compelling story. We work with the visual, creating a visual story, and then also train and capacitate leaders to tell that story orally, using, you know, oral storytelling skills."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [12:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=745)

> "I was a storyteller, but nobody told me. I was meant to make sense for people. I was meant to interpret corporate strategy to what is in it for me, the rock drill operator."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [13:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=824)

> "At home, we're all storytellers. Look at a bunch of guys around the bright fire. I mean, they can't shut up long enough for somebody else to finish their story because my story is also worth telling. And at work, we become PowerPoint slide presenters, you know, we write reports in flippant high English that nobody understands."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [15:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=907)

> "For example, when introducing a strategy, a strategy change, one can start by talking about in the past, you know, this is what happened. Then Then something happened, something's happened that's meant that a change is necessary, and then one can talk about what we're going to do now, followed by where we're going, what could become."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [16:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=981)

> "You can teach anybody. I mean, even I could be taught. It really, truly is so simple, because everybody are already, it's like saying, can you teach anybody to speak? But people are speaking."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1029)

> "it's more about what we have to unlearn sometimes. You know, stories are all around us, but when you, when you walk into the workplace, you sort of, there's almost this switch off the human button and go into abstract language,"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [18:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1088)

> "Also learning how to ask questions, to draw stories from others. Tell me about a time when, tell me about your experience. Those kind of stories just elicit the most fantastic stories that we can pass on."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [19:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1151)

> "Think about your audience and then how you're gonna connect, you know. If you wanna convey a specific message, you know, in what context you're gonna do it, you know."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1195)

> "You tell a success story which says, you know, this is Jane. Jane is just like you. She also had a problem. She then did whatever she did and now her problem's resolved."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [20:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1214)

> "And the, the CEO of that company at the time sort of looked me up and down and said, so, lovey, do you really expect me to believe you're gonna go out there and change the way that my mines operate?"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [22:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1368)

> "but it was about what, you know, Harmony's purpose was, to change the industry, to do things differently, to turn conventional thinking on its head."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Mining industry leadership · [24:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1480)

> "just being immersed into another culture through friendships and relationships made me realize, the, the richness of cross-cultural connection, the importance of relationships, the importance of not taking anyone at face value,"
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [26:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1566)

> "Yes, I am an ex-CEO of a mining company. Yes, I am white and privileged and rich, and they're not. But there's always a level where you truly are just human beings, you know?"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1697)

> "out of that came a set of circumstances which got me into the mining industry, and at the end of it, I really, truly got standing applause."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [28:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1722)

> "Okay, so we were called the Elimination of Fatalities Task Force, and we spoke to people at, I think I visited each and every operation across the whole of South Africa."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Listening to employees · [29:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1762)

> "And having spoken to so many people, I think over 2000 conversations, you know, you sort of realize that if you want to change anything or put any sort of corporate strategy into place, you have to think like you're speaking to those guys."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Listening to employees · [30:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1824)

> "I came to exactly the point that you've made, is that you actually need to start, we've got the model backwards, you need to start with the receiver. Where are they coming from? What are they thinking about?"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=1893)

> "And it, it stayed with me throughout my career that deeper into the organization, firstly, the people care, and secondly, they actually have got some really significant practical suggestions, as per your own story."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [33:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2020)

> "because that, that disconnect is the misalignment or the lack of alignment which is costing companies billions and billions and billions of rand, because we say we are going north, and we forgot to tell our people, and they don't know where north is,"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2073)

> "mine was more psychology, and social psychology just emphasizes again, again, the way to dismantle stereotypes is actually really to get closer to the person and hear a little bit about their stories."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [35:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2115)

> "And if you ask them to tell their stories, they'll tell you where the next fatality is coming from. They'll tell you, and then you can prevent it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Listening to employees · [37:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2268)

> "But no, it's the dynamic of I'm seen, I'm heard, I'm Important enough that somebody asked my opinion. I mean, it's for free. This is so cheap."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [38:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2301)

> "I often think, you know, when, when we, whenever we start an intervention, the first thing we do is we, we conduct listening sessions, very similar to, to what you've described,"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [38:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2325)

> "And then he shares with me how his brother, who worked on Unicel, died on Unicel soon after Wes Harmony took it over. Now this is his story."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [40:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2439)

> "Learn to listen, because that is that experience now. And then learn to communicate better through using stories."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Listening to employees · [42:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2526)

> "Zach, at the time, was reading for way longer than ten minutes, and then he started, as this program was introduced, only reading for ten minutes. So I said to him, but why are you reading for ten minutes? He said, because I've, I've done my ten minutes. And therein lies the problem of incentives."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [44:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2655)

> "the tip is really just to, to obviously know the basics, what is the story, to be able to make them short, to the point, and to know the point, the business point that you're making."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [44:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2675)

> "There has to be a business reason for telling the story, and the shorter the better, and we all struggle with that,"
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [44:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2697)

> "The, the partner that we work with in Australia, the material that we teach and present, it's, it's called Anecdote."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [45:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2742)

> "the important points in a story is firstly you want a, a time or place marker. It's great to talk about when or where something happened, then it's great to talk about, a series of events, then an interaction between people, and then possibly a wow moment or a realization that is connected to a business point."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [46:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2761)

> "when you're telling stories, nine times out of ten, you are going to reveal something about yourself. So it's, it's quite, so you've got to be prepared to be vulnerable,"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [48:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2892)

> "anybody who is prepared to be authentic and, and tell stories will discover that that vulnerability actually draws people. People see the real human being."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Authenticity and vulnerability · [49:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=2987)

> "the general secretary of the NUM At the time stood up, to, to talk strategy, and there to my absolute, my heart nearly stopped beating was the, the Harmony Visual Strategy Map that we'd put together,"
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [52:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3142)

> "after the intervention, the CFO, who was a very smart, clever, strong professional, she said, if I'm honest, I now get it for the first time."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [53:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3181)

> "we create these visual strategy maps that, that Tracey has referred to, which, put the, the, the culture and the strategic imperatives, if you like, of an organization into a visual compelling picture."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Communicating business strategy · [55:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3356)

> "So I think listening, storytelling, and focusing on strengths are, are for me the three underpins of creating a, a, a different and better place to work."
> — Tracey Swanepoel, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [57:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3433)

> "Now, if you add to that the key role, in my opinion, of a leader is to inspire hope, to make us dream about being the rainbow nation."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [57:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3478)

> "We think it's time to apply that to leadership practice. We think it's time to take what is being learned about people and how to lead and make it practical and get serious about that too."
> — Lisa Shippey, guest · topic: Human connection at work · [59:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3576)

> "We are allowing the consultants to tell scary stories and we should actually start to tell empowering stories."
> — Bernard Swanepoel, guest · topic: Storytelling for leaders · [59:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991976_high.mp3#t=3599)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

In this episode Petro du Pisani speaks to Tracey Swanepoel, Bernard Swanepoel and Lisa Shippey from Thinkspiration. They explore how storytelling can be used to explain business strategy and how to connect with people at various levels in an organisation. Storytelling is a skill that everyone can learn - it helps people to understand each other and the organisations they work in better. Thinkspiration is a company that helps leaders to tell stories, so that their strategy is easy to understand. This results in improved employee engagement, motivation and produces improved results. This episode is full of personal life-changing stories and helpful tips and tricks on how to incorporate storytelling in your work-life. Music Used : Umlungu | https://johnbartmann.com Visit Thinkspiration's website · Storytelling for Leaders · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #014 Riaan Wolmarans | Travel books: Memories and aspirations

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/014-travel-books-memories-and-aspirations/
- Date: 2019-12-03 (as at 2019-12-03)
- Guest: Riaan Wolmarans
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Books and travel, Memories of places, Fantasy and fictional worlds, Post-apocalyptic fiction, Travel guides and writing, Reading habits, Holiday reading lists
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991977
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3

### About the guest: Riaan Wolmarans

- Lived in London for three years; as a high school boy worked at a public library and joined its book selection committee; wrote large parts of the 2006 Fodor's Guide to South Africa.

In their own words:

> "I did live in London for three years, so another amazing city, just like New York, obviously, but, and also a city that features in so many books and films and television shows." [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=360)

> "So as a high school boy, I started working at the public library, and I was so into books and reading that the librarians, the kindly librarians, said, well, you know, since you read such a lot, we may as well make you part of the book selection committee for the library." [16:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=966)

> "It's the Fodor's Guide to South Africa from 2006. This is the edition that I brought, and the fun thing about this book is that I wrote large parts of it back in 2005, and for this edition to come out the next year." [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

An end-of-year book discussion in which host Petro and her friend Riaan Wolmarans talk about books tied to places: cities they have visited, places they want to visit, fantasy and post-apocalyptic worlds, and travel guides. The pair move from New York and London through Europe and Africa to outer space. Riaan brings personal memories of reading on holiday, his teenage work on a library selection committee and his experience writing large parts of a Fodor's guide to South Africa. Petro shares her reading habits, including abandoning books, and both reveal their holiday reading lists.

**Key ideas**

- Riaan argues that two books can show the same city in very different lights, citing American Psycho and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close on New York. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=47) [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=66) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=183))
- Riaan says physical books hold memories of where and when they were read, so his shelves feel like old friends. ([08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=489) [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=492) [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=498) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=509))
- Riaan uses a Johannesburg novel to argue that a fragmented city built on gold and immigration can come together, as the book's stories do. ([12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=750) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770) [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=812))
- Petro holds that it is fine to abandon a book; she keeps an 'Abandoned' shelf on Goodreads. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112))
- Riaan says fiction can depict worlds too large or costly to film, pointing to Star Trek novels. ([19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1183) [20:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1247))
- Riaan values printed travel guides for quick reference and as keepsakes filled with ticket stubs. ([24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525))
- From writing a Fodor's guide, Riaan says good travel writing must paint a picture rather than list attractions. ([27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671) [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706))

**Lessons**

- Petro suggests giving yourself permission to stop reading a book you are not enjoying rather than forcing yourself to finish it. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112))
- Petro reads business books chapter by chapter so she can apply what she learns. ([18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1102))
- Riaan recommends carrying a paper travel guide, which doubles as a record of the trip. ([24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525))
- Riaan's travel-writing experience suggests description that paints a picture persuades readers to visit more than listings do. ([27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706))
- Petro notes that even a novel that does not make you want to visit a country can teach you about it. ([15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=927))

**Who it's for:** Readers looking for book recommendations linked to cities and travel, fans of fantasy, science fiction and post-apocalyptic fiction, and people curious about travel guides and how travel writing works.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Petro says the Los Angeles library that The Library Book describes burnt down in 1986, losing millions of books. ([04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=259))
- Riaan lived in London for three years. ([06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=360))
- Riaan wrote large parts of the 2006 Fodor's Guide to South Africa in 2005. ([27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676))
- Riaan says Johannesburg is one of few cities not built around a major river, having grown from gold mining. ([12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770))
- Petro's first Audible audiobook was Artemis by Andy Weir, author of The Martian. ([21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1274))
- Petro bought David Allen's Getting Things Done for her team ahead of the next year. ([30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1809))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What novels show different sides of New York?**
A: Riaan contrasts American Psycho, which he says paints a grim, money-driven picture of the city, with Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, a post-9/11 story he calls beautiful. Petro adds City of Girls by Elizabeth Gilbert, set in 1940s New York. ([00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=47) [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=66) [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=107) [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=183) [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=241))

**Q: Are there fantasy books set in an alternative London?**
A: Riaan recommends China Mieville's Un Lun Dun and Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere; Petro mentions Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series about constable Peter Grant. ([06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=378) [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=452))

**Q: Is it okay to stop reading a book you don't like?**
A: Petro says life is too short to force yourself to finish a book and keeps an 'Abandoned' shelf. Riaan abandons books less often out of guilt, but says you shouldn't feel bad dropping a book your partner bought. ([18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112) [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1142))

**Q: Why carry a paper travel guide when you have a phone?**
A: Riaan says a printed guide is quick to check at a museum or for nearby attractions, and becomes a keepsake with ticket stubs as bookmarks and marked passages. ([24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525))

**Q: What is a good book about Johannesburg?**
A: Riaan recommends a city novel spanning more than a hundred years of tales about Johannesburg as a city of immigrants built around gold, whose fragmented stories come together. ([12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=750) [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770) [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=812))

**Q: What makes travel writing hard?**
A: Riaan, who wrote much of the 2006 Fodor's Guide to South Africa, says anyone can list museums and prices; the challenge is painting a picture in a few words that makes a distant reader want to visit. ([27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671) [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706))

**Q: What post-apocalyptic books are worth reading?**
A: Riaan points to Stephen King's The Stand, one of the first he read as a teenager, and Max Brooks's World War Z, told through news and military reports and featuring South Africa. ([22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1374) [23:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1439) [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1456))

**Q: What book shows places that sound invented but are real?**
A: Riaan recommends Atlas Obscura, saying its entries sound like fantasy novel titles yet are real places you can visit. ([24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490) [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593) [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593))


### Passage: Two books, two sides of New York [00:47–03:08, 441 words]

Note (AI): Riaan contrasts American Psycho and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close with his own post-9/11 visit, showing how books frame a city before and after travel.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [00:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=47):
> The first city that came to mind for me is New York City, because it's a city that features in so many aspects of nonfiction and fiction, of course, and it's a city that I've also visited before. Which was an amazing experience, but it has obviously many sides because it's such a complicated and big city, and a book that I read before I went to New York City was Great Eastern Alice's American Psycho, which is quite famous in its own regard for being a terrifying novel to read. It's very hard reading at times. I mean, I'm a big fan of horror, but the kind of graphic descriptions in this book of murder and mayhem, and it can be quite severe.

Petro du Pisani, host [01:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=89):
> And I can't read any gory stuff at all, so there's a, there's a big reason why I don't read half of Stephen King's novels, because there's a lot of gore involved, and I just can't, I can't cope with it.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [01:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=99):
> But what this book does, it shows you, because the, the main character is a, a Wall Street banker, and he's a complete psycho also, of course. It paints a very grim picture of the hard, human-less side of New York, emotionless side. It was all about money and greed and fame, et cetera. So It's one picture of New York that it's painted through this one book, but then you actually go there and you discover how amazing the city is. And we went there after 9/11 and we visited the site where the Twin Towers had stood. At the time, there was just a hole in the ground and they were still busy developing the idea of the memorial that's gone up there since. And it was a very emotional moment to visit that scene. And then after my visit to New York, I read Jonathan Safran Foer's book, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, which was also made into a film. Well, as was American Psycho, of course. So Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close tells a post-9/11 story of a, of a nine-year-old boy whose dad died in 9/11, and then, he's trying to get through life, this boy with his mom, and he finds a mystery key. And then, of course, the key needs a door, and he goes on a mission to find The door that matches the key, and that's how amazing, tragic, funny, and intensely moving tale, as the spectator called it, unfolds, and it really is an astoundingly beautiful book. So it was interesting to show how two books can paint a city in two different lights so beautifully.


### Passage: Paper books as memories and the Amsterdam bookshop [08:09–09:48, 357 words]

Note (AI): Riaan explains why physical books hold travel memories for him, illustrated by finding the same unmarked Amsterdam bookshop on two separate visits.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [08:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=489):
> I wanted to talk about books on holiday, because one thing I love about reading paper books, which I almost exclusively do, unlike Petro, is the fact that when I see them on my bookshelves, I, they feel like old friends. I can look at a book and I know that book I spent hours reading on a train through Japan, or On a boat in Halong Bay in Vietnam, and those tactile memories are very important for me in terms of how I remember the books and when I read them and how much I enjoyed them or not. So the first destination abroad that I visited outside South Africa was, the Netherlands in Amsterdam in the beginning of the 2000s. And the very first time I went to Amsterdam, I one day thought, let me see if I can find a bookshop, but I kind of couldn't really on the first day find an English language one because, you know, Europe is weird that way. I just walked and walked and walked one day and looking at the city, and I found suddenly stumbled upon a very unmarked bookshop, really. It's not, not a big sign outside or anything, but they actually had all these books in a kind of a, over several stories in an old house, and including many English books. And I found a book by Steve Alton called Meg. Now, this is complete schlocky holiday reading. It's about a giant prehistoric shark that awakens in the deep. And terrifies the world. But, you know, it was, it was great for holiday reading. So that was great. And then a couple of years later, I visited Amsterdam again, and I thought, let me see if I can find the same bookshop. And I did. And one of the first shelves I looked, there was the sequel to, to Meg called The Trench, which I then also bought and read on holiday. So, I mean, these two books are really not by quality, but they completely take me back to those visits to Amsterdam because they just bring back those memories so beautifully.


### Passage: Johannesburg as a city of immigrants [12:30–13:46, 264 words]

Note (AI): Riaan links a novel's structure to Johannesburg's gold-mining origins and its mix of cultures, making a local reading recommendation with social commentary.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [12:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=750):
> I do, I do have a book around Johannesburg. This is a new one, just lest you think I unread old books. It's by Harry Kalmer. it's called A Thousand Tales of Johannesburg, a City Novel. So this is a book that really brings together the idea of Johannesburg being a city of immigrants, because Johannesburg is an interesting city in many ways. It's one of the few cities around the world that's not built around a major river, for example, because of course it was a city built around gold, and it brought people from all over the world in, in the hunt for gold. The mining industry is how the city got started. And years down the line, we still have such a mix of people from across the world living here. This book really explores what it means to have all these legacies of different cultures in the city, telling it through the tales of, several people and spanning more than a hundred years. It is a, it's really a book that in the beginning feels a bit fragmented to start reading, because it's all these different tales presented to you. Seemingly quite randomly, but as the book progresses, they all start fitting together quite beautifully, and I think the way that the book comes together is similar to the way that our society in Johannesburg can come together, even though we are fragmented in terms of religion and race and culture, in the same way that the book brings these stories together, you know, so Johannesburgers can also come together.


### Passage: Reviewing books for the public library as a teenager [15:44–16:51, 262 words]

Note (AI): A personal story of how Riaan joined a library's book selection committee in high school, and how one book carries that memory.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [15:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=944):
> We spoke about books that can take you back to a place you've visited before, for example, holiday trip, but books can also take you back to a time in your own past and evoke certain memories, and I brought along today Stephen King's book, The Tommyknockers. and I mean, it's quite a good book in its own right, and it's definitely worth reading, an interesting kind of take on the idea of alien visitation and all of those things. So as a high school boy, I started working at the public library, and I was so into books and reading that the librarians, the kindly librarians, said, well, you know, since you read such a lot, we may as well make you part of the book selection committee for the library. So, which means I got to take a copy of brand new books home to read, and then fill out a form to help the library decide whether to buy this book for the library. And this book by Stephen King was one of the very first books that I got to, to review in that sense for the library. the one I brought today is, it's actually one of the original editions with, its specific cover that's quite beautiful. And then when I saw this book in a bookshop once, I was like, this is the copy I must own because this takes me back to that very happy time of me working in the library, and this book is really quite precious to me because of that reason.


### Passage: Why paper travel guides and Atlas Obscura [24:50–26:46, 387 words]

Note (AI): Riaan sets out the practical and sentimental case for carrying printed travel guides and introduces a book of real but unusual destinations.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [24:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1490):
> Why, yes, I do, and I'm glad you asked. We have traveled extensively, and we always buy travel guides, the likes of a Fodor's guide or Time Out or any of those books, because we find it incredibly useful to have a, an actual paper book with us when traveling. There's something quite nice about just whipping out the book and going to the right page to check up on the history of a museum that you are visiting, or just to find the next attraction in the same neighborhood that you might want to visit. And, I mean, yes, obviously your phone and Google, those things have made it quite easy, but there's something to be said about having an actual travel guide in your backpack, and they become little memories of that time that you were visiting a city, because The bookmarks are ticket stubs and subway tickets and things like that, and there's marked passages of museums that he went to that turned out to be closed or that were really cool that you might want to go back to. But I didn't specifically bring any of those travel books today. I brought... I looked at our travel shelf and I thought, let me bring something that our listeners might actually not have heard of, but it's the most amazing book. It's called Atlas Obscura by Joshua For, Dylan Thurus, and Ella Morton. It's quite a beautiful book. It's called Atlas Obscura, An Explorer's Guide to the World's Hidden Wonders. And what it does is you can basically open to any page, and it shows you the most amazing things and locations around the world that it sounds like fantasy, but these things all exist in our actual real world. I mean, I opened randomly to a page, and there's the Waitomo glowworm caves and the cargo cults of Tanna. Watson, Lakeside, Post Forest, Uranium City, the Saskatchewan Twisted Trees, I'm just paging through the book. You can see the Museum of Clean. It just, all of these things sound like actual titles of amazing fantasy novels, and yet they are real places on earth that you can go and visit. So, yeah, in terms of inspiring places that you might want to go visit, Atlas Obscura is a very good guide to that.


### Passage: Writing the Fodor's Guide to South Africa [27:51–28:53, 216 words]

Note (AI): Riaan describes the challenge of travel writing from the author's side: going beyond listings to make a distant reader want to visit.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [27:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1671):
> Okay, and yes, on travel guides, I did bring along one book. It's the last one that I brought today. It's the Fodor's Guide to South Africa from 2006. This is the edition that I brought, and the fun thing about this book is that I wrote large parts of it back in 2005, and for this edition to come out the next year. It was a very interesting experience because we're talking about travel writing and everything, but To actually have to be the one to do the travel writing teaches you such a lot about looking at the attractions of your city, country, the places people might want to visit, and then trying to figure out not to just write a listing of these things. I mean, anyone can write a list of museums and places to go to and opening hours and prices, but how do you then, in only a few words sometimes, paint a picture of this place that will make someone living in Indonesia, maybe, or New York City, or London, or Amsterdam go, well, you know what, I really should go to Johannesburg to see the following things, because it sounds actually really attractive. So that was a rare bit of insight from the other side about travel writing.


### Quotes

> "it's almost like comfort eating or comfort food for your ears."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [05:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=331)

> "when I see them on my bookshelves, I, they feel like old friends."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=498)

> "It's a very dangerous place to live. There are so many murders in Scandinavia."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=663)

> "Life is too short to start off with a book and go, oh, no, I don't want to read this, and then force yourself to finish it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112)

> "places we'd like to go to that we'll never be able to go to."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [21:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1316)

> "I read these books, and I actually think I'd be a pretty good survivor. You know, if you stick with me, I think you'll be okay."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1348)

> "I mean, my partner says that when the zombie apocalypse happens, he's just gonna go out and walk straight into the zombies because he doesn't see himself, like, wanting to scrounge around for food. So he'll just give himself up on day one."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1355)

> "so it's always nice to read about home, even if you're talking about the end of the world."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [24:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1456)

> "Yes, there are places I'd like to go, but hopefully don't have to go."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1475)

> "all of these things sound like actual titles of amazing fantasy novels, and yet they are real places on earth that you can go and visit."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593)

> "anyone can write a list of museums and places to go to and opening hours and prices, but how do you then, in only a few words sometimes, paint a picture of this place"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706)


### Claims

> "a book that I read before I went to New York City was Great Eastern Alice's American Psycho, which is quite famous in its own regard for being a terrifying novel to read."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [01:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=66)

> "It paints a very grim picture of the hard, human-less side of New York, emotionless side. It was all about money and greed and fame, et cetera."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [01:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=107)

> "And we went there after 9/11 and we visited the site where the Twin Towers had stood. At the time, there was just a hole in the ground and they were still busy developing the idea of the memorial that's gone up there since."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [02:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=125)

> "So it was interesting to show how two books can paint a city in two different lights so beautifully."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=183)

> "It's a very strong female, feminine type book, and I would definitely recommend people to read that as well."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [04:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=241)

> "is The Library Book by Susan Orlean. And it's all about the library in Los Angeles that burnt down in 1986. And we sort of missed that story because the Challenger blew up in around about the same time, so it wasn't a huge front page story, but they lost millions of books"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [04:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=259)

> "But the way in which it's, it described, it's almost like comfort eating or comfort food for your ears."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [05:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=328)

> "I did live in London for three years, so another amazing city, just like New York, obviously, but, and also a city that features in so many books and films and television shows."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [06:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=360)

> "The one is by China Mieville called Unlondon, spelled U N L U N D U N, which in very Mieville fashion creates an incredibly detailed and well-configured, well-thought-out alternative London called Unlondon, which you obviously find through a secret entrance."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [06:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=378)

> "the first book in the series is called Rivers of London, and it all follows the adventures of a constable called Peter Grant,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [07:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=452)

> "one thing I love about reading paper books, which I almost exclusively do, unlike Petro, is the fact that when I see them on my bookshelves, I, they feel like old friends."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=492)

> "those tactile memories are very important for me in terms of how I remember the books and when I read them and how much I enjoyed them or not."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=509)

> "And then a couple of years later, I visited Amsterdam again, and I thought, let me see if I can find the same bookshop. And I did. And one of the first shelves I looked, there was the sequel to, to Meg called The Trench, which I then also bought and read on holiday."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Memories of places · [09:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=567)

> "What I liked most about the book was that it actually had a geological twist to it. For somebody who studied geology and geophysics, the unwinding of the story actually has something to do with geology."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [10:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=610)

> "there's nobody like a Nordic writer that can describe the absolute stark landscape of those countries, and I like reading those books."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [10:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=655)

> "The latest book in the series is called The Labyrinth of the Spirits, and this, by this time, the story had caught up to 1950s Barcelona, and it is a most amazing series of books,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [11:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=687)

> "he also wrote a book called Dead Europe, where, again, it's a young Australian man called Isaac who starts traveling through Europe, and as he travels along, he learns things about himself and his past,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [11:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=719)

> "It's one of the few cities around the world that's not built around a major river, for example, because of course it was a city built around gold, and it brought people from all over the world in, in the hunt for gold."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [12:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=770)

> "I think the way that the book comes together is similar to the way that our society in Johannesburg can come together, even though we are fragmented in terms of religion and race and culture,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books and travel · [13:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=812)

> "the way they describe the rains rolling in over the plains, makes you want to visit Botswana. And I would recommend anybody to visit Botswana because it's a beautiful country with a lot of very friendly people."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [14:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=871)

> "I don't know if, if the book will make me want to go to Nigeria, but at least I know a bit more about the country after reading the book."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books and travel · [15:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=927)

> "So as a high school boy, I started working at the public library, and I was so into books and reading that the librarians, the kindly librarians, said, well, you know, since you read such a lot, we may as well make you part of the book selection committee for the library."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits · [16:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=966)

> "When I read about, book recommendations in the newspaper, then I go, I make lists of those people, and I just put it added to my to-read list."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [16:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1017)

> "And when I started reading it, I realized that it was actually romance, which is a genre I don't read at all, and it was so cheesy, and I wouldn't recommend it, but for some reason I couldn't put it down."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [17:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1050)

> "So I can't read business books all in one go. I have to read chapter by chapter and apply the stuff that I'm learning."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [18:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1102)

> "Life is too short to start off with a book and go, oh, no, I don't want to read this, and then force yourself to finish it. You can just put it down."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits · [18:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1112)

> "you'll tend to try something that your partner bought, and then it's not necessarily to your taste, so you shouldn't feel bad about abandoning that and telling them they bought a rubbish book."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits · [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1142)

> "many people who know it from the television series and the movies don't realize that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of books that have been written set in the same universe."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [19:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1183)

> "The scale of this book is such that, I mean, it would cost billions and billions of dollars to film, and they would never have enough special effects, I think, to create the amazing wars and battles that happen in this book."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [20:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1247)

> "the first audio book that I listened to on Audible was Artemis by Andy Weir, which is, he's the same author who wrote The Martian,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Fantasy and fictional worlds · [21:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1274)

> "it's another Stephen King book called The Stand, which is probably one of the first post-apocalyptic books I read as a teenager,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Post-apocalyptic fiction · [22:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1374)

> "the book itself is written in, in a way that it's, it's kind of a collection of little news reports and secret military reports and other kind of documentary evidence of this dramatic plague that's unfolding around the world."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Post-apocalyptic fiction · [23:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1439)

> "we always buy travel guides, the likes of a Fodor's guide or Time Out or any of those books, because we find it incredibly useful to have a, an actual paper book with us when traveling."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1495)

> "they become little memories of that time that you were visiting a city, because The bookmarks are ticket stubs and subway tickets and things like that,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1525)

> "all of these things sound like actual titles of amazing fantasy novels, and yet they are real places on earth that you can go and visit."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [26:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1593)

> "my studies were sponsored by a mining company, they told me that I would be posted in Indonesia to do exploration. So I bought a whole book on Indonesia and cultures,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Travel guides and writing · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1617)

> "my travel style is normally not to read too much about the place I'm going to. I like to wander around and find stuff."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Travel guides and writing · [27:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1646)

> "It's the Fodor's Guide to South Africa from 2006. This is the edition that I brought, and the fun thing about this book is that I wrote large parts of it back in 2005, and for this edition to come out the next year."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [27:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1676)

> "anyone can write a list of museums and places to go to and opening hours and prices, but how do you then, in only a few words sometimes, paint a picture of this place"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Travel guides and writing · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1706)

> "Well, almost top of my pile is the book by Susan Orleans that you already mentioned, The Library Book, which I'm very keen to read because of my real interest in libraries, of course,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Holiday reading lists · [29:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1744)

> "the book that I bought for my team in preparation for next year is called Getting Things Done by David Allen,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Holiday reading lists · [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991977_high.mp3#t=1809)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

This is another special edition end-of-year book-review On Change podcast. In this episode Riaan Wolmarans (my BFF) and I talk about books about travel. Books that made us want to travel somewhere (or not). Books that we read, or were recommended to us while traveling. Books about places, real or invented. Join us on a journey around the world and through genres. We also reveal what we will be reading over the holiday season. Connect with Riaan on LinkedIn · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #013 Jo Rust | How motorcycling around Africa changes you

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/013-how-motorcycling-around-africa-changes-you/
- Date: 2019-05-24 (as at 2019-05-24)
- Guest: Jo Rust
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Motorcycling around Africa, Overcoming fear and depression, Mindset and taking action, Calculated risk, Trusting strangers while travelling, Transition to coaching and psychology
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991980
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3

### About the guest: Jo Rust

- Personal Life Coach
- Motorcycle adventurer and author of "Woman Alone Around Africa"; first woman to circumnavigate the African continent on a motorcycle, solo. Became a BMW Motorrad ambassador and off-road instructor; now studying psychology and coaching.

In their own words:

> "So then I cycled from Joburg to Cape Town, and once I finished that, I cycled around South Africa, which took me exactly a hundred days, and I think it was just short of six thousand kilometers." [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=494)

> "but, you know, I became an off-road instructor, so now, I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable on whatever bike I ride." [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1078)

> "when I finished that, I became an ambassador for BMW Motorrad. I became an instructor, traveled to Germany a whole bunch of times." [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2209)

> "So I am actually studying psychology at the moment and have done a whole bunch of coaching certifications," [37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2236)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

The host talks to Jo Rust about how riding solo around Africa changed her. Jo describes a difficult childhood marked by fear and depression, and a 2007 crisis after which she decided to become the first woman to travel around Africa on her own. She first cycled around South Africa, was robbed of her bicycle in Angola, and was then sponsored by the Angolan government to redo the trip by motorcycle. She discusses the lessons of the journey: managing fear, trusting strangers and taking calculated risks. She also talks about the depression she felt after finishing and her move into coaching and psychology.

**Key ideas**

- Jo says her Africa journey began as a deliberate choice to do the biggest, scariest thing she could think of, after a moment of contemplating suicide. ([06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=386) [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=405) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=443))
- Jo argues that you should act before the conditions are right, because there will never be enough money or time. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1962))
- Jo uses a ten-count rule: she lets herself feel scared, then acts without thinking. She likens it to Mel Robbins' five-second rule. ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360) [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415))
- Jo says a solo trip was never about being alone. Travelling alone made people more willing to approach and help her. ([26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577) [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577) [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1601))
- Jo argues that biases about places like Nigeria come from hearsay. She had zero issues there and met kindness even in wartime Libya. ([27:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1647) [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752))
- Jo says every risk she took was calculated and guided by her gut. The host theorises that people who take calculated risks are more risk averse than most. ([33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2004) [33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2030) [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056) [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2111))
- Jo describes feeling lost after seven years of single focus. She found fulfilment again in coaching and psychology. ([40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2404) [40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2420) [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480))

**Jo's ten-count rule for border crossing days** ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360))

1. Prepare in the morning so all paperwork is in order.
2. Strap everything on the bike as tight as possible, since no one is watching your things.
3. Stop about five kilometres before the border.
4. Allow yourself to feel scared for ten seconds or ten counts.
5. Once you reach ten, go and do it without thinking.

**Lessons**

- Jo advises taking the first step rather than waiting for the perfect time. She started with about a thousand rand and no sponsors. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31) [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1962))
- Jo warns that giving yourself time to think lets you talk yourself out of acting, so act quickly. ([23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415) [24:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1460))
- Jo's view is that mindset, and how you respond to setbacks, matters more than trying to prevent every risk. ([18:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1110) [20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1239))
- Jo suggests judging places through experience rather than reputation, as her time in Nigeria and Libya showed. ([27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752))
- Jo found that reaching a long-held goal can leave a void, and that happiness depends on finding fulfilment. ([40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480))

**Who it's for:** Aspiring overland riders and solo travellers, people dealing with fear, social anxiety or depression who want practical ways to act anyway, and anyone who is facing a life transition after reaching a big goal.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Jo cycled around South Africa in exactly a hundred days, covering just short of six thousand kilometres. ([08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=494))
- Jo says her trip around Africa covered forty-five thousand kilometres, and she took a riding course only afterwards. ([31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1895))
- The motorcycle journey took about a year, and seven years passed from her decision to her finish. ([40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2420))
- After her bicycle was stolen in Angola's Zaire province, authorities deployed two helicopters from the capital. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=644))
- The Angolan government sponsored Jo's entire motorcycle trip. ([12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=727))
- Jo entered Libya only through a personal invitation from the Minister of Tourism. ([28:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1691))
- After the trip, Jo became a BMW Motorrad ambassador and an off-road instructor. ([17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1078) [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2209))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Who was the first woman to ride solo around Africa on a motorcycle, and why did she do it?**
A: Jo Rust says she decided to become the first woman to travel around Africa on her own after a tragic event in 2007. She had been contemplating suicide and chose instead to do the biggest, scariest thing she could think of. ([06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=386) [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=443))

**Q: How did Jo Rust fund her motorcycle trip around Africa?**
A: After her bicycle was stolen at knifepoint in northern Angola, the Angolan government apologised. Jo asked for help starting over, and two weeks after she sent a proposal they agreed to sponsor her entire trip. ([08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=539) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=551) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=727))

**Q: How can I push through fear when I have to do something scary?**
A: Jo would let herself feel scared for ten counts, then act without thinking once she reached ten. She compares this to Mel Robbins' five-second rule of counting down and then acting. ([21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289) [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360) [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415))

**Q: Is it safe to travel alone through countries like Nigeria or Libya?**
A: Jo says she had absolutely zero issues in Nigeria and found people friendly and helpful. In wartime Libya, a shopkeeper filled her bag and said "Welcome to Libya." She did avoid Timbuktu after a kidnapping there. ([27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657) [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752) [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056))

**Q: How do adventurers decide which risks are acceptable?**
A: Jo trusts her gut and says every risk she took was calculated. She avoided areas in the news for kidnappings. The host argues that people who take calculated risks are more risk averse than most. ([33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2030) [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056) [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2111))

**Q: What bike did Jo Rust ride around Africa?**
A: Jo says she lost faith in her first bike, a Kawasaki KLR 650, after its engine seized. She rode the whole trip on a BMW and was comfortable on it from day one. ([16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1013))

**Q: What do you do after achieving a huge life goal?**
A: Jo says she was completely depressed for six months after finishing, because she had no routine or destination. She found happiness again once she discovered coaching and psychology, saying happiness equals fulfilment. ([40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2404) [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453) [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480))

**Q: What does Jo Rust do now?**
A: Jo says she is studying psychology, has done coaching certifications, and is moving away from motorcycle tours. She wants to be a coach and therapist for the rest of her life. ([37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2236) [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2248) [39:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2353))


### Passage: The tragic event that sparked the Africa journey [06:26–07:43, 187 words]

Note (AI): Jo explains how a moment of contemplating suicide turned into the decision to take on the biggest, scariest challenge she could think of.

Jo Rust, guest [06:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=386):
> And then there was an event in my, in my life, in 2007, a very tragic event that really affected me in a massive way, and that made me decide to actually embark on this trip around Africa. I struggled with depression since a very young age, and it actually got to a point where with this tragic event, I ended up, contemplating committing suicide. And I remember this day, you know, I was sitting in a swing underneath a tree and crying my eyes out. And then, something happened. Something shifted in my mind, and it happened in an instant where I realized I don't want to do this. And as afraid as I was and as scared as I was, you know, something was telling me, well, okay, if I'm not going to take my own life, then I'm going to go the exact opposite way and do the biggest, scariest thing, take on the biggest, scariest thing that I could think of. And right in that moment, it was, well, I want to become the first woman to travel around Africa on my own.


### Passage: Robbed in Angola, then sponsored by its government [09:11–12:18, 524 words]

Note (AI): The turning point of the story: an armed robbery led to a government apology and the full sponsorship of her motorcycle trip.

Jo Rust, guest [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=551):
> As fate would have it, it was one Saturday, I think it was, and in northern Angola, I was on my way to the Congo, and I got up the morning and packed up my camp, so I would sleep like kind of in the bushes, you know, in my tent. And I got on the road, and as I started pedaling, this black Ford Bucky pulled over in front of me, and four guys got out of it, which at the time, I didn't really think anything of it, because a lot of people stopped to find out, you know, who I was and what I was doing. I would kind of stick out like a sore thumb wherever I went, and it wasn't until they pulled out, knives and machetes that I realized that they weren't here for a chat. And so, long story short, they stole my bicycle and all my kit, and, I got away, so I ran away. Made a run for it with my, I still had my camelback on my back, and in it I had my phone and my passport and my card. So I was able to phone a friend in Luanda, a friend who is very well connected within the Angolan government. And within minutes, he, had phoned the local chief of police, had phoned the governor in the area, and it was absolute chaos. You know, within minutes, the nearest Police station, they deployed a car with police officers to come and find me and make sure that I'm safe, bring me back to the town. The governor of that province in the north, the Zaire province, flew in to come and make sure that I was safe, and they deployed two helicopters from the capital. I just thought to myself, this is, this is like something out of a Hollywood movie. You know, this is insane. And all for a bicycle. I mean, this is, this is absolutely insane. And, but that day changed my life because I returned back home eventually, and the Angolan government got in touch with me, wanting to apologize for what had happened. And I took a chance because they, one of their ministers contacted me, and he said to me, you know, if there's anything we can do to help you, let me know. And I was like, well, I can think of something, and I took a chance and said to him, look, I actually want to start over. And I had decided that I want to start over on a motorcycle, pretty much the moment that I saw my bicycle disappear over the horizon with these guys. And I thought, in that moment, standing in the middle of nowhere in northern Angola, I just thought to myself, there's got to be an easier way. And so he said to me, okay, well, send us a proposal and a budget, which I did. And I think it was two weeks later, he came back and he said, yes, the Angolan government will sponsor your entire trip. And that's how I started over on a motorcycle.


### Passage: The ten-count rule for border crossing days [21:29–23:56, 430 words]

Note (AI): Jo gives a practical, step-by-step technique for acting despite fear and links it to Mel Robbins' five-second rule.

Jo Rust, guest [21:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1289):
> so what I discovered was this, Tool that I use in the sense of it's a practical thing that I did whenever I had a difficult day. Like, I knew border crossing days were always, were always quite hectic. So before I embarked on this journey, I still suffered from really bad social phobia. So it was difficult for me to be around people, and especially in strange places. And now I was in strange places every single day, around strange people every single day. And what I ended up doing is, if it was a border crossing day, I would prep myself in the morning, make sure that I had everything, all my paperwork in order, so I didn't have to worry about that. I would make sure that, you know, I'd strap everything on my bike as tight as I possibly could, because the other challenge was, of course, being on my own, there was no one to look after my stuff whilst I was sorting out my paperwork and having my passport stamps and all of that. So what I would do is when I got to the border town or just before a border, like five kilometers before it, I would stop and then I would allow myself to feel scared for ten seconds or ten counts, and the rule was once I get to ten, then go. Just do it. You know, don't think, because that's the problem is when we think too much, you know, just don't think, just do it. And it's become something that I use up until this day now. So it's changed a bit, it's evolved a bit. there's actually a woman, her name is Mel Robbins, and she came up with what she calls the five-second rule. And basically, it worked on a lot of stuff that if you're afraid of something or if you're procrastinating or whether it be having to get out of bed in the morning or going to the gym, will never feel like doing the things that we actually need to do. You'll never feel like it. You have to force yourself to, to do stuff. And so the five-second rule, what it is, is let's say your alarm goes off in the morning, you count back from five to one, five or three to one, and then you just do it. Because once you take action, you're not thinking about it anymore. So, it, so it, it works on the same premise and it's something that I use daily in my life now.


### Passage: Nigeria and Libya: kindness where it wasn't expected [27:27–29:31, 340 words]

Note (AI): Jo challenges biases about dangerous places with first-hand stories of hospitality, including entering wartime Libya.

Jo Rust, guest [27:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1647):
> And like you mentioned Nigeria earlier, and that was one of the countries that I went like, oof, in the heart of Western Africa, and we all know about Nigeria. But we built up these biases because that's all you hear without really experiencing what a place really is about. And I had absolutely zero issues in Nigeria. People were so friendly, so helpful, and in places that you wouldn't expect, like in Libya, one of my favorite stories is in Libya, I went through Libya in a time where it was, well, it's still difficult to get through there, but it was just by pure fluke that I was allowed to get into the country, and it was only because the Minister of Tourism, who is a woman, she invited me personally into Libya, and that's the only way I could get in. And it was via, I had a friend who had a friend who has a friend who has a friend, that kind of thing. That's the only way I could get in, and it was, it was scary as hell, whilst in Tripoli, I mean, it was literally having bombs going off around you at night, and it was a war, it was in the middle of a war zone, and I remember One day, getting into a town, the town's name was Ashdaria, and I went to a little shop. I needed to get some, some stuff, cold drinks and whatever, snacks and food. And as I got to the counter, the shop owner started packing just more stuff into my bag, and I didn't really understand what was going on, but I was like, okay, I'll just allow this, because I don't quite know what to do. And after he'd filled my bag with goodies, he handed it over to me and just said, "Welcome to Libya." And I was like, this is so amazing. I had so many of those type heartwarming things that happen, moments that happen all the way around Africa.


### Passage: Balancing courage, stupidity and calculated risk [33:24–36:17, 504 words]

Note (AI): Jo and the host each set out how adventurers judge acceptable risk, with Jo relying on gut instinct and avoiding known danger zones.

Petro du Pisani, host [33:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2004):
> So how do you balance courage against stupidity when looking for new challenges? Because a lot of people, like a lot of adventurers will just head off, okay, and, and not necessarily try and anticipate the risk that they're gonna face. So obviously you don't wanna take unreasonable risk, so how do you decide what's acceptable risk and what isn't?

Jo Rust, guest [33:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2027):
> Yeah, it's, I think it's a, it's a tough one. For me, it came down to, trusting my gut. So that's another thing I learned on this trip is to absolutely trust my instincts and my gut. Because it's a risk, but, you know, every risk I took was a calculated risk. So I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. But at the same time, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go into areas where on the news, they, when I was in Senegal, they had kidnapped a South African actually in Mali, in Timbuktu. So I didn't go to Timbuktu because that would be stupid.

Petro du Pisani, host [34:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2068):
> So. cause, yeah. It's quite an interesting theme for me, and I've, I've discussed this with somebody else before as well, is that people will say to me, how can you ride a motorcycle in urban traffic? And I'm like, if I leave at seven o'clock in the morning, everybody else is standing still, firstly. So, and everybody's on their phone. If you go past the cars, every single person's on their phone. The people who actually see you and may give you a gap are the people who are not on their phones, and those are the taxi drivers. So the people who are perceived to be the most riskiest people on the road are the guys who are actually seeing me, okay, coming through the traffic. The guys who are not seeing me are the guys who are on their phones in the car and not looking around very much. Yeah. And my theory is that people who are willing to take calculated risks Like bikers in the traffic or paragliding or whatever you're going to be doing, is you're actually much more risk averse than most people. That you actually have looked at the risks, you've weighed them up, you've made a decision, and you're just going to go with it, okay? Whereas other people sort of go blindly through life without even thinking about the risk that they're exposing you to at that point in time. That's a theory that I've got, is that people who do stuff like motorcycling and paragliding are actually better with handling risk. Yeah.

Jo Rust, guest [35:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2146):
> Yes, definitely. There's this interesting, thing that I read and heard recently is when you study the top successful people in the world, you'll find that all of them take risks. They are for risk. And the one percenters, the top one percent of humanity are all adventurous people. Who take risks. And because that's how you get anywhere. Everything is a risk, isn't it? Getting out of bed in the morning is a risk.


### Passage: Life after the goal: depression and finding fulfilment [40:04–41:27, 243 words]

Note (AI): Jo describes the emptiness after seven years of single focus and how finding a new purpose restored her happiness.

Jo Rust, guest [40:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2404):
> It does. So it's, it's taken me, yeah, it's taken me thirty-five years. But, when I finished the trip around Africa, that's when I started struggling with it because I was like this dog that had been chasing about For seven years, because from the moment I decided I wanted to go around Africa until the moment I finished, it was seven years. The actual going around Africa physically took me a year, but I mean, a lot of it, the run-up to it, you know, cycling through South Africa, round South Africa, but it's a long time to have one singular focus. And it was great whilst I had that focus, but the moment I finished, it was like, okay, now what? I've caught the bus. Now what do I do? And I struggled with it for a long time. I really struggled with it. And I, I remember the first six months back home, I was completely depressed because I didn't know what to do. Every day I had this routine of getting up, packing my bike, getting on my bike and moving on to the next place. And all of a sudden I had nowhere to go. And, it's until now that I have learned In the last year or two that I've realized what I want to do, now I'm in a much happier place because, you know, happiness equals fulfillment. If we're not fulfilled, we'll never be happy.


### Quotes

> "There will never be the perfect time to do it. You'll never have enough money. You'll never have enough time."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31)

> "I just thought to myself, there's got to be an easier way."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [11:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=717)

> "So my, my brother used to ride motorcycles, so I asked him if he would teach me how to ride a bike, just the basics, how to pull away, how to handle the clutch gears. and he got so frustrated with me. And so I think he gave up on me after a couple of hours. So I eventually taught myself"
> — Jo Rust, guest · [12:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=758)

> "the KLR went for its first service, and after I got it back, I went to Cape Town, came back, and it ended up running out of oil, and the engine seized. So there was this huge dispute between myself and Kawasaki South Africa, over this is not supposed to happen, but I ended up losing faith in the bike and sold it."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [15:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=956)

> "before I actually bought a bike, obviously I did some research on, you know, what would be the best bike to take on a trip like this, and it came down to either the KLR or the Dakar, the BMW Dakar, or the Africa Twin. But the Africa Twin is a bit heavier, so I actually always wanted BMW. So it worked out perfectly, so I got the BMW, and I was perfectly comfortable on it from day one. Absolutely loved the bike. Yeah, so, and ended up doing the whole trip on that."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=992)

> "I learned that people are basically good. I learned that we get what we expect."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [20:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1224)

> "Just do it. You know, don't think, because that's the problem is when we think too much, you know, just don't think, just do it."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [22:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1373)

> "You'll never feel like it. You have to force yourself to, to do stuff."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1410)

> "although it was a solo trip, I was never alone."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577)

> "Like, I'll go around Africa forty-five thousand kilometers, come back, and then I'll go for training."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1895)

> "courage is knowing it might hurt and doing it anyway, and stupidity is the same, and that's why life is hard."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [33:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1992)

> "Everything is a risk, isn't it? Getting out of bed in the morning is a risk."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [36:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2174)

> "happiness equals fulfillment. If we're not fulfilled, we'll never be happy."
> — Jo Rust, guest · [41:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2483)


### Claims

> "There will never be the perfect time to do it. You'll never have enough money. You'll never have enough time. You just have to do it."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=31)

> "So I was born on the East Rand in Johannesburg. I was born in Camden Park and grew up in Camden Park, went to school there as well."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Early life · [02:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=146)

> "family life was a bit difficult growing up, so it wasn't a very easy environment to grow up in because I had parents and grandparents, well, adults surrounding me that were struggling with alcoholism,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Early life · [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=163)

> "As a kid growing up, though, I was a very sensitive child, and I grew up with a lot of fears, so my escape was always adventure, being outside and embarking on my own adventures."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [03:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=227)

> "I've always struggled to find exactly what it is I want to do up until recently when I found my real passion in life, which is psychology."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=274)

> "So I remember maybe at age eight or nine, I would have my brother lock me in my cupboards so I could learn, at will, so I could learn how to calm myself down, you know, and how to breathe and how to control my thinking."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [05:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=326)

> "The first thing I did was I went to Israel for a year, spent a year on a kibbutz in Israel, and that was kind of my first time outside of South Africa."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Early life · [05:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=354)

> "I struggled with depression since a very young age, and it actually got to a point where with this tragic event, I ended up, contemplating committing suicide."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=405)

> "if I'm not going to take my own life, then I'm going to go the exact opposite way and do the biggest, scariest thing, take on the biggest, scariest thing that I could think of. And right in that moment, it was, well, I want to become the first woman to travel around Africa on my own."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [07:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=443)

> "So then I cycled from Joburg to Cape Town, and once I finished that, I cycled around South Africa, which took me exactly a hundred days, and I think it was just short of six thousand kilometers."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [08:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=494)

> "but I made it from Cape Town to Angola until my bicycle was stolen in northern Angola."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [08:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=539)

> "and it wasn't until they pulled out, knives and machetes that I realized that they weren't here for a chat. And so, long story short, they stole my bicycle and all my kit,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [09:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=589)

> "The governor of that province in the north, the Zaire province, flew in to come and make sure that I was safe, and they deployed two helicopters from the capital."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=644)

> "And I think it was two weeks later, he came back and he said, yes, the Angolan government will sponsor your entire trip. And that's how I started over on a motorcycle."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=727)

> "And I decided, well, okay, what I have to do is I have to get on this bike, ride out of the garage, and just go, go have coffee with a friend or something, just go, so I can get over the fear and get used to it."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [13:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=836)

> "And yeah, and the first thing he taught me to do is how to stop. So we went the whole day just stopping."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Learning to ride · [15:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=929)

> "So it worked out perfectly, so I got the BMW, and I was perfectly comfortable on it from day one. Absolutely loved the bike. Yeah, so, and ended up doing the whole trip on that."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1013)

> "My, my rule of thumb has always been you have to be able to reverse the bike. You have to be able to push it back with your legs, okay?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Learning to ride · [17:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1042)

> "but, you know, I became an off-road instructor, so now, I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable on whatever bike I ride."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1078)

> "I was well aware of the risks, and I accepted that something might happen again, which it did. But what was more important was my mindset around how to deal with that,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [18:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1110)

> "for me, it was all about the journey and allowing the journey to just happen. So I, I didn't plan a lot. I had a general idea of the route that I wanted to follow."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [19:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1170)

> "I learned how to control my fears. I learned that I'm capable of far more than I give myself credit for. I learned that people are basically good. I learned that we get what we expect."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [20:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1215)

> "I learned that a lot of life has to do with your mindset and being conscious of the fact that to just what extent your thoughts and emotions affect your life."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [20:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1239)

> "before I embarked on this journey, I still suffered from really bad social phobia. So it was difficult for me to be around people, and especially in strange places."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [21:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1305)

> "I would stop and then I would allow myself to feel scared for ten seconds or ten counts, and the rule was once I get to ten, then go. Just do it."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [22:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1360)

> "so the five-second rule, what it is, is let's say your alarm goes off in the morning, you count back from five to one, five or three to one, and then you just do it. Because once you take action, you're not thinking about it anymore."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [23:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1415)

> "because if you have given yourself time to think about it, then you give yourself time to convince yourself that, nah, maybe not today."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [24:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1460)

> "You shouldn't be spending your, your money on stuff. You should be spending your money on experiences and speaking to people and all that sort of stuff."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [25:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1532)

> "although it was a solo trip, I was never alone. It was never about being alone. It was about allowing myself to, open up to other people"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1577)

> "And the thing with when you're traveling on your own, people feel more comfortable approaching you, as opposed to if you are in a group."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [26:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1601)

> "But we built up these biases because that's all you hear without really experiencing what a place really is about. And I had absolutely zero issues in Nigeria. People were so friendly, so helpful,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [27:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1657)

> "it was only because the Minister of Tourism, who is a woman, she invited me personally into Libya, and that's the only way I could get in."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [28:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1691)

> "And after he'd filled my bag with goodies, he handed it over to me and just said, "Welcome to Libya." And I was like, this is so amazing."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Trusting strangers while travelling · [29:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1752)

> "I've always been fascinated with going to Gabon and experiencing an actual jungle, like you would see in the Amazon. And I got to experience that,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [30:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1806)

> "Like, I'll go around Africa forty-five thousand kilometers, come back, and then I'll go for training."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1895)

> "When I started out, I didn't have the money. In, in fact, I had like maybe a thousand rand to my name, and I couldn't get sponsors because nobody believed I could do it"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Mindset and taking action · [32:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=1962)

> "For me, it came down to, trusting my gut. So that's another thing I learned on this trip is to absolutely trust my instincts and my gut. Because it's a risk, but, you know, every risk I took was a calculated risk."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [33:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2030)

> "when I was in Senegal, they had kidnapped a South African actually in Mali, in Timbuktu. So I didn't go to Timbuktu because that would be stupid."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [34:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2056)

> "And my theory is that people who are willing to take calculated risks Like bikers in the traffic or paragliding or whatever you're going to be doing, is you're actually much more risk averse than most people."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Calculated risk · [35:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2111)

> "when you study the top successful people in the world, you'll find that all of them take risks. They are for risk."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Calculated risk · [35:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2152)

> "when I finished that, I became an ambassador for BMW Motorrad. I became an instructor, traveled to Germany a whole bunch of times."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [36:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2209)

> "So I am actually studying psychology at the moment and have done a whole bunch of coaching certifications,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [37:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2236)

> "my purpose, I believe, is to take what I've learned and experienced over the years and to pay that forward to other people and to help people through whatever it might be that's holding them back in their lives."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [37:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2248)

> "If you're completely fighting with yourself the whole time, then you must be doing something wrong. You're on the wrong path somewhere."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindset and taking action · [38:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2312)

> "because like I said, I love motorcycling, but being a coach and a therapist is what I want to do for the rest of my life."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [39:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2353)

> "because from the moment I decided I wanted to go around Africa until the moment I finished, it was seven years. The actual going around Africa physically took me a year,"
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Motorcycling around Africa · [40:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2420)

> "And I, I remember the first six months back home, I was completely depressed because I didn't know what to do."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Overcoming fear and depression · [40:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2453)

> "now I'm in a much happier place because, you know, happiness equals fulfillment. If we're not fulfilled, we'll never be happy."
> — Jo Rust, guest · topic: Transition to coaching and psychology · [41:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991980_high.mp3#t=2480)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

In this episode Petro speaks to Jo Rust, Personal Life Coach, Motorcycle adventurer and author of the book "Woman Alone Around Africa." Jo holds the record as the first woman to have circumnavigated the entire African continent on a motorcycle, solo. Jo is now studying psychology and is a practical life coach. This episode explores why Jo felt the need to ride around countries and continents on two wheels, and what she learnt about herself in the process. Music Used : Sunny looks good on you, by Midnight North found at Youtube's Audio Library Connect with Jo · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #012 Denis Beckett | On being an ordinary South African

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/012-on-being-an-ordinary-south-african/
- Date: 2019-03-17 (as at 2019-03-18)
- Guest: Denis Beckett
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Career change from law, Apartheid-era journalism, Future of newspapers and media, Making politics work, Dropping race, Staying in South Africa, Change and stability
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991982
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3

### About the guest: Denis Beckett

- journalist, adventurer, TV presenter, radio host and author
- Studied law and was admitted as an advocate in 1972 but never practised; wrote for the Rand Daily Mail; started Frontline magazine in 1979, which lasted twelve years; presented Beckett's Trek on SABC from 1994 to 2001.

In their own words:

> "I'm one of the guys living now who is admitted earliest, namely in 1972. In other words, I'm an incredibly senior junior advocate who's never practiced." [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=101)

> "Day Factor, I was the editor of that, weekly paper, weekend paper. Percy Orboyza was editor of both, World and Weekend World, and I was his assistant editor, quote, but actually Percy had nothing to do with Weekend World, he did the daily and I did the weekend." [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=359)

> "I wanted to create something that was not interested in all the race crap that we were living through at that stage. I'm not, I wasn't interested in being the black press or the white press. I wanted something that was just for people. That was the beginning of Frontline" [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=472)

> "in those whole twelve years, I ran through forty thousand rand of other people's money. Now, that was tuppence compared to what practically everybody else in the kind of so-called alternative industries." [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=523)

> "My first column was for Bielt, would you believe, in 1983. I was a token liberalist." [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1293)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with journalist and TV presenter Denis Beckett about his path from a law degree to the Rand Daily Mail, the 1977 press closures, founding Frontline, the 1983 spoilt-ballot campaign, Face the Facts and Beckett's Trek. Denis argues that newspapers survive by offering edited background rather than news, that politics can be redesigned to give ordinary apolitical citizens a sensible role, and that South Africans should simply drop race. He closes by contrasting South Africa's good human relationships with its politics, which he says are easier to fix.

**Key ideas**

- Denis argues that newspapers are no longer about news but about views, values and background, and that edited, reliable content will always have an audience. ([19:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1145) [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1447) [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1450) [24:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1464))
- Denis's mission is to make politics work by using the inbuilt stability of ordinary people and giving apolitical citizens a sensible role beyond voting for the party they were born into. ([34:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2079) [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2107) [36:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2174) [36:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2193))
- Denis says 'the people' are not the protesters or marchers but the quiet majority who stay away, and that giving them a role would bring stability. ([39:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2376) [40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2430) [41:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2464) [41:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2486))
- Denis's closing message is to drop race: recognise differences but do not make them a religion; he says the government does not understand non-racial. ([45:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2710) [45:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2718) [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2782) [47:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2823))
- Denis suggests change should move towards a point of stability, and that sound politics would make further change less frightening. ([42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2525) [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2525) [42:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2542))
- Denis stays in South Africa for its everyday human relationships, and frames the country as having lovely people and fixable politics. ([32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1939) [48:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2918) [48:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2932) [48:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2932))
- Denis describes a career of principled efforts that did not succeed, such as the 1983 spoilt-ballot campaign. ([10:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=639) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=690) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=785) [13:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=804))

**Lessons**

- Denis's career shows that a 'year out' from a planned profession can become a life's work when the new path suits your interests. ([03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=215) [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=282))
- Denis found that asking simple, 'dumb' questions without fear often gave viewers what they actually wanted. ([16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=985))
- Denis advises that when commissioned to write, you sell your time rather than your opinion, and write what you believe. ([31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1904) [31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1906))
- Denis suggests judging public opinion by the people who stay away, not by those who march or riot. ([40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2430) [41:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2486))
- Denis argues any individual can improve things by dropping race as a lens for everyday dealings. ([45:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2718) [47:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2823))

**Who it's for:** Listeners interested in South African media and political history, the future of newspapers, and ideas about ordinary citizens' role in democracy and race, told through a veteran journalist's own stories.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Denis says he was admitted as an advocate in 1972 but never practised. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=101))
- Denis says the papers were closed on October 19th, 1977, while he was in Umtata. ([06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=387))
- Denis says Frontline ran through forty thousand rand of other people's money over twelve years. ([08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=523))
- Denis says his first column was in 1983. ([21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1293))
- Denis says spoilt papers are usually half a percent; in the 1983 referendum they reached about one percent. ([13:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=819))
- Denis says about three quarters of voters vote for the party they were born into. ([36:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2174))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Denis Beckett go from law to journalism?**
A: He finished his law degree at his father's request, travelled, then took a writing job at the Rand Daily Mail intending to spend a year before a real career; he says that year 'hasn't quite stopped yet'. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=101) [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=215) [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=282))

**Q: Why did Denis Beckett start Frontline magazine?**
A: After the 1977 closure of World and Weekend World, he wanted a publication not interested in race, neither black press nor white press, 'just for people'. It started in 1979 and lasted about twelve years. ([06:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=384) [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=387) [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=472))

**Q: What was the spoilt-ballot campaign in the 1983 referendum?**
A: Denis and others urged voters to mark X in both places to reject PW Botha's reform as not going far enough. Harry Oppenheimer nearly backed it but declined out of loyalty to the progs; spoilt votes reached about one percent. ([10:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=639) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=690) [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=785) [13:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=819))

**Q: Are newspapers going to die?**
A: Denis says there will always be a place for professionally treated, edited information; newspapers are about views and background rather than news, and major British and American papers are not suffering. ([19:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1145) [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1447) [24:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1464) [27:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1637))

**Q: What was Beckett's Trek about?**
A: Denis says it was about going to places, themes or issues and asking what happens here, listening to the answers; it inquired into issues and thoughts rather than geography. ([17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1060) [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1067) [18:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1097))

**Q: How could politics work better for ordinary people according to Denis Beckett?**
A: He argues for using the stability of ordinary people by designing a sensible role for apolitical citizens: letting them see what they can vote for, how to vote for it, and to get what they vote for. ([34:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2079) [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2107) [36:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2174) [36:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2193))

**Q: What does Denis Beckett think about race in South Africa?**
A: He says to drop race: it never matters what complexion anyone is; recognise differences but do not make them a religion. He argues the government is fanatically interested in race. ([45:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2710) [45:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2718) [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2782) [47:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2823))

**Q: Why does Denis Beckett stay in South Africa?**
A: He says it is his country and that everyday relationships with ordinary people are excellent; he prefers a country with lovely people and terrible politics because politics is easier to fix. ([32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1939) [48:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2918) [48:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2932))


### Passage: Papers closed in 1977 and the founding of Frontline [06:24–08:09, 344 words]

Note (AI): Denis's first-hand account of the 1977 press closures and why he started a publication that was 'just for people' rather than black or white press.

Denis Beckett, guest [06:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=384):
> And then everything ended then, Percy was in jail, and my deputy, Agri Claster was in jail. I was actually in Umtata on the day that they closed all those papers, October the 19th, 1977. I was in Umtata. Ironically, kind of incongruously, I was at Puck Buerta opening Kaiser Matanzem with the president of the Transkei's new palace, new state house. And when I heard that all these arrests had taken place and bannings and so forth, I said to Puck's guys, listen, you better give me a lift back home in your plane, because I think I better be there. I don't know why, but I thought I better be there. But at this stage, suddenly on that day, I'd now become the enemy, as far as they were concerned. The day before, they'd been all pally nice, like we'd been in happy conversation. Now suddenly they think, well, geez, this guy's toxic, you know, we can't go near. So that fell away. What is the point I was making? The point I was making is after the collapse of all those papers, there was a short period during which there was a funny little maverick black, black, black magazine. It was so black it was unbelievable. It bragged about being, we are the real black newspaper, newspaper I should have said. They bragged about that and taking a whack at World, which was after all owned by the big status Velargas company. And this funny little black magazine then asked me if I wanted to be their manager. So I was a kind of umlungu behind the scenes and that became weird. The end result is I wanted to create something that was not interested in all the race crap that we were living through at that stage. I'm not, I wasn't interested in being the black press or the white press. I wanted something that was just for people. That was the beginning of Frontline and there we are. That created Frontline 1979, lasted for twelve years more or less.


### Passage: The spoilt-ballot campaign and Harry Oppenheimer's refusal [11:30–13:28, 423 words]

Note (AI): An insider story of the 1983 referendum: how the spoilt-ballot idea nearly won a powerful backer, and why it did not.

Denis Beckett, guest [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=690):
> About a week before, this spoiled ballot thing became a big issue. Of course, every guy immediately looks at it and says, well, that's stupid, you know. That's for stupid people. Stupid people don't know how to vote. We were saying, you create your own place. Some people got it, and some people didn't. One person who absolutely didn't get it was Franzel Slabert, who was head of the, PFP, the opposition at the time. He was very unamused, I have to say. And, various people, big shots, Privately agreed with us, but then couldn't part. A lot of progs, a lot of the top progs also said, you know, we're in a trap here and we're doing the wrong thing, we've got to get out. But they couldn't actually publicly break away, they were all scared and so forth. And finally, the biggest fish of the whole lot, aforementioned Harry Oppenheimer, invited my wife Gail and I to supper one night. This was now shortly before the election, the referendum. And he had a bunch of his advisors around there and we had sat through this incredible supper. And then the ladies go out, powder their noses, and the men gather in the smoking, in the cigar room, and he says, right, explain to us this thing. By the time I'd finished explaining, all of his advisors who were there went On, they were wildly enthusiastic. Harry, you must do this. Harry, you must say this. If Harry had got up the next morning and said, I hereby declare that I think that the right thing to do is to spoil your vote, that was going to radically change. I'm not saying it was going to win, Dan. It was going to radically change the proportions. And Harry got to the edge. And then as he walked us out, and I remember I had this funny little old broken Audi that made a hell of a noise when you started it. And as he walked us out to the car, he said, you know, I'm sorry. He said, I've been too involved with the progs for too long, and I can't turn on my back on them now at this time. So to me, that was like a little tense period, a fascinating little period, where in principle, that was the right difference. It was the right thing to do. Well, it failed, but it was doing the right thing. I've had a long history of doing the right thing that fails.


### Passage: Why newspapers are not about news [24:07–25:12, 184 words]

Note (AI): Denis's argument that newspapers survive by providing background and edited analysis, not breaking news.

Denis Beckett, guest [24:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1447):
> I'm really interested in your response. I don't particularly read newspapers for the news. In fact, news is newspaper's enemy. Newspapers were about news in, you know, 1805, and they had to tell the Battle of Trafalgar, et cetera, and it took, ten days getting there, and then they told the world. Now, everybody knows the news anyway before the newspaper publishes. Newspapers aren't about news. Newspapers are about the, the set of views, values, expressions being, presented around you, and about background to what's happening. International news, actual news is rarely small in relation to, to me. I mean, you know the news and bam, it hits you, but the really interesting bits are why, what was behind this, what was going on. That stuff is where I'm saying there will be some people, not you, You've declared, but there will be some people who want to read, okay, what was the background to what happened in Syria yesterday? What's the background to what's going on in Nigeria today? And that's somebody, you want somebody who knows having edited somebody who also knows.


### Passage: Denis's mission to make politics work for ordinary people [34:39–36:42, 394 words]

Note (AI): Sets out Denis's central political idea: design a sensible role for apolitical citizens instead of party voting by birth.

Denis Beckett, guest [34:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2079):
> Yeah, okay, my big mission, I was going to tell you. I for years been maintaining you can make politics work in the way that we've made like technology work. It's gone, it's transcended the limits that they used to be. It's gone into a new realm. We can make politics work. We can make politics work quite easily. And in due course, sooner or later, whether it's my hand or not, but in sooner or later, that's the route towards doing that is going to come out. And briefly put, cause I can really bog you down on this. Briefly put, the route to do that is you want to utilize the inbuilt stability of ordinary people. Ordinary people's role in politics is ain't like nicks, nothing. The only thing that ordinary people can do is they can say, oh, well, this party's better than that party, I'll go for this party or that party. Most people have no interest in parties. Most people, most people in our country and most others don't vote. In countries where you have guns to your head and you're going to be in trouble, it's different. But in most reasonably free countries, most people don't vote. They don't even vote in presidential elections, never mind midterms and or municipals that we have. They aren't interested enough to vote. They avoid it fairly drastically because there's dangers and risks, and it can be dangerous. It's not dangerous on this side of town. It's dangerous in the places where the Scottish acts are dire and the gang lords are heavy. And Most people don't want to vote. Give people a sensible structure in which to achieve things that they want out of politics, rather than this blind, doof thing of simply voting for what turns out to be the party you were born into. More than most people who vote, about three quarters vote for the party they were born to. So to create a politics that enables the ordinary, humble, apolitical citizen to exercise a sensible role. You design a sensible role for them, which does not mean forcing people to the polls, nothing like that. It means allow people to see things that they can vote for, to see how to vote for those things, and to get things that they do vote for. E Y simple.


### Passage: Who 'the people' really are [39:36–41:48, 388 words]

Note (AI): Denis argues that protests and marches misrepresent public opinion and that the quiet, uninvolved majority are the real people.

Denis Beckett, guest [39:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2376):
> There's several strands in what you said there. Just let me take up one. Almost everything that we talk of as being public opinion or what people want or people's rule and so forth is not, is not that thing. It's something different. Every time, for instance, here's a little classic. You see on your screen that there's in some dorpy somewhere, a hundred guys are burning, shacks and they are stewing rubbish and they've got tires in paraffin and they're lighting it and they, they're waging chaos. They've got some service delivery problem. People think, oh my god, that's the people. Look at the people. Look how the people are behaving. That's not the frigging people. The people are the guys who are avoiding their press gang, the press gang of these hundred, and they're avoiding the TV cameras, and they're ducking out to their behind the scenes, trying to make their way through their reasonable, ordinary day. That's the people. The people, if you're going to talk about real representativity, the people, finally, are humble, ordinary, reasonable people, looking for a reasonable way to get through, make their way through this earthly coil. And it hardly ever has, okay, when you see marches, you'll see a huge march somewhere, and you'll think, oh, you know, this is intimidating. Particularly, you'll see a march that's in favor of some side that you're a little bit scared of. You think, oh my god, the people, you know, keep the people boxed in, they're dangerous. That's not the people. The people are the people who aren't in the march. They were bragging like hell about those Egyptian, rallies that mustered up to a, a million people in Egypt at the time of that Arab Spring. You know how Egypt works is that some 80 million people are within 20 kilometers of Cairo. Now I'm exaggerating. Some 80 million people are within a splitting distance of Cairo. Look at the people who didn't go. That's always a much more important thing than looking at the people who were involved. Most people aren't involved. You give them a role as just require, like if you like, ratification. You're going to end up with so much stability, so much like normalness, and so much good behavior. You'll wish you'd done it before.


### Passage: Denis's closing message: drop race [45:10–47:09, 387 words]

Note (AI): The message Denis chose to leave listeners with, including his critique of how government uses race and a section of the constitution.

Denis Beckett, guest [45:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2710):
> right, if you'd like a particular message, I'm going to say this. Never mind establishing the sound political foundation, there's one really simple way that any one of us in ourselves can make a better world around us, which is drop race. Just forget the stuff. Everybody gets so fanatical about whether you're black, white, Indian, or colored. And when I say everybody, I mean everybody. Some while ago I was at a thing of the Institute of Race Relations. They had their whole long story, their presentation, this is the so many blacks, there's so many Indians, that so many colors. I said, listen, it's just wrong now to be going on and on about race relations at all. In fact, you should change your name. But you should certainly just drop the stuff about who's black and who's white. It doesn't matter. There's nowhere where it matters what complexion anybody is. If there's X many, many people that get this kind of income, there you are, you do something about them. You don't need to know what complexion they are. And this applies everywhere. There's never any reason you need to worry about anybody's race. So why do we all make it the biggest thing in our agenda? Drop it. Just drop it. The government doesn't know what non-racial means, literally, literally. That the government literally does not know what non-racial means. Non-racial means that you aren't interested in race. The government is fanatically interested in race. Did you, by the way, know that we have a, we, I think we're the only country in the world that has, this is my column a few days ago, that permits races in this constitution. We do, section nine two, go and look it up. And it's just really weird. Not only do we permit that, but we also, it's a worship, we worship at the totem of race. And it's ordinary people everywhere talking about everybody by the, I'm not saying ignore, and just be normal. You don't ignore the fact, I know perfectly well you're a woman. I know perfectly well that you're young. And I, you know, that's, I'm allowed to recognize these differences. You're allowed to recognize differences about race too. You just don't make them your religion. They not, they don't matter.


### Quotes

> "I'm an incredibly senior junior advocate who's never practiced."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [01:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=106)

> "I once nearly joined the Navy. When I later looked back at that, I think I would … That's insane. I'm just not a person for discipline and hierarchy at all."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [04:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=256)

> "I've had a long history of doing the right thing that fails."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=807)

> "I am innumerate. I don't understand finance money, nothing. And, so this was really in the sense that it was meant to be for the common man … I was asking dumb, ignorant questions. And I wasn't scared of asking dumb, ignorant questions. And often that was what the viewer wanted to hear."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=971)

> "My producer, Keith Shaw, said it's about scratching where it does not itch."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1060)

> "It's like you're swimming in a river, and every tenth stroke of your arm you brush against a passing turd."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [19:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1179)

> "In fact, news is newspaper's enemy."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1450)

> "it must make me cleverer, not stupider."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [28:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1694)

> "You aren't buying my pen, you're buying my time."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [31:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1906)

> "The history of humankind has been a history of movement away from the power of the strong towards the power of you and me."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2237)

> "The people are the people who aren't in the march."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [41:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2464)

> "One thing is you want to change towards a point where you stop changing."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2525)

> "So why do we all make it the biggest thing in our agenda? Drop it. Just drop it."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [46:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2770)

> "His boss is Mr. Vanakirk, Mr. Vanakirk, Vanikak, not Elick, ex-South African. Vanikak, or Vanakirk's boss is Verster. Mr. Verster, Verster, not Elick, his boss is Base, Buys. Three queer South African Buddha running Toronto's transport system."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [47:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2870)

> "An excellent human relationship between people with a lot of politics to fix."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · [48:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2932)


### Claims

> "I'm one of the guys living now who is admitted earliest, namely in 1972. In other words, I'm an incredibly senior junior advocate who's never practiced."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Career change from law · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=101)

> "The way that they said they lived and the way that they did live was one and the same thing. And that, by the way, is to me the sort of bottom line of what decency is about."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Decency · [02:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=134)

> "I came back here, and I got offered a job at the Rand Daily Mail, a writing job. And I thought, damn, you know, I'm going to take a year out before I do proper law, get down to a real career. And that year sort of hasn't quite stopped yet."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Career change from law · [03:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=215)

> "I'm not really interested in what is, I'm interested in what can be. I'm not interested in the detail of how a contract was formed. I'm interested in the personal relationships and impact upon people, rather."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Career change from law · [04:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=282)

> "I decided that The Star in those days wasn't sufficiently bold and clear and didn't state a case that the separatist society was the wrong place, and the Rand Daily Mail was doing this. So I went back to the mail"
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Apartheid-era journalism · [05:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=337)

> "Day Factor, I was the editor of that, weekly paper, weekend paper. Percy Orboyza was editor of both, World and Weekend World, and I was his assistant editor, quote, but actually Percy had nothing to do with Weekend World, he did the daily and I did the weekend."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Apartheid-era journalism · [05:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=359)

> "Percy was in jail, and my deputy, Agri Claster was in jail. I was actually in Umtata on the day that they closed all those papers, October the 19th, 1977."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Apartheid-era journalism · [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=387)

> "I wanted to create something that was not interested in all the race crap that we were living through at that stage. I'm not, I wasn't interested in being the black press or the white press. I wanted something that was just for people. That was the beginning of Frontline"
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Apartheid-era journalism · [07:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=472)

> "in those whole twelve years, I ran through forty thousand rand of other people's money. Now, that was tuppence compared to what practically everybody else in the kind of so-called alternative industries."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Apartheid-era journalism · [08:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=523)

> "the answer to this thing is to create your own place on the ballot form. Create a big double X, write X in both places, and you've spoiled your paper, and if people know that there's, there's a campaign, spoil your paper, and you're saying this is not enough for reform, we don't support it because it doesn't go far enough, you could create your own position."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [10:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=639)

> "as he walked us out to the car, he said, you know, I'm sorry. He said, I've been too involved with the progs for too long, and I can't turn on my back on them now at this time."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [13:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=785)

> "Well, it failed, but it was doing the right thing. I've had a long history of doing the right thing that fails."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [13:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=804)

> "You always get half a percent spoilt papers. The end, if you'd got anything more than that, it would have been significant. In the end, you've got something like one percent or one point one or something."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [13:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=819)

> "I was asking dumb, ignorant questions. And I wasn't scared of asking dumb, ignorant questions. And often that was what the viewer wanted to hear. He didn't want to hear the high-class debate."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [16:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=985)

> "It was about going places and saying, what happens here? Going into maybe a place, maybe a theme, maybe an issue, and saying, what happens here? And listening to the answers, and then listening to the other guy's answers,"
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Beckett's Trek · [17:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1067)

> "But it was a question, it was inquiring into issues, things, thoughts, rather than into geography."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Beckett's Trek · [18:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1097)

> "there'll always be an audience for information that in some sense has been processed, in some sense you can rely on, somebody has like approved this thing."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [19:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1145)

> "I stopped doing a comment column that I had because the comments were revolting. They weren't necessarily comments dismissive of me, which many of them were, but that doesn't particularly worry me. But it was a bunch of lowlifes using the cover of anonymity to fight really hateful race wars,"
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [19:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1189)

> "My first column was for Bielt, would you believe, in 1983. I was a token liberalist."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Apartheid-era journalism · [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1293)

> "I've now done enough that I don't actually get terrified of deadline, that's one thing. I'll say one other thing. Previously, I used to always feel I had to put the world to rights. These days, I quite often want to tell a tale, and I enjoy telling tales, seeing tales of the real South Africa."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Journalism and writing · [22:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1366)

> "you read the newspaper and it could be the ANC times. The newspapers, media generally, it's all about who in government said this to who in government said that to who in opposition. The real world is actually a much nicer world."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [23:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1392)

> "But I'm really interested in the storytelling bits. Because I, I believe that storytelling is the way in which we change that."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1440)

> "Now, everybody knows the news anyway before the newspaper publishes. Newspapers aren't about news. Newspapers are about the, the set of views, values, expressions being, presented around you, and about background to what's happening."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [24:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1464)

> "That is one guy, or at best a very few guys, idea of something that they think can plausibly pass as breaking news. And it's very frequently not the biggest or best thing around."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1582)

> "By the way, in some countries here, print is suffering. It's print worldwide is not necessarily suffering. The, major big British and American newspapers are not suffering."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [27:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1637)

> "So if I'm going to be reading a newspaper story or if I'm going to be listening to something, it must make me cleverer, not stupider."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Future of newspapers and media · [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1689)

> "Now, I wrote a novel for the same reason, and it conspicuously failed to cause, to have the same effect, but that was the original reason why I wrote a novel."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Journalism and writing · [31:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1870)

> "My deal always was You aren't buying my pen, you're buying my time. I'm going to write what I believe is the case about your thing."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Journalism and writing · [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1904)

> "Your normal relationship with a normal guy that you meet, and that you have a, anywhere, any place that you meet anybody, your normal relationship is an absolutely first-class, excellent relationship. I love that."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Staying in South Africa · [32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=1939)

> "Briefly put, the route to do that is you want to utilize the inbuilt stability of ordinary people."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [35:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2107)

> "More than most people who vote, about three quarters vote for the party they were born to. So to create a politics that enables the ordinary, humble, apolitical citizen to exercise a sensible role."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [36:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2174)

> "It means allow people to see things that they can vote for, to see how to vote for those things, and to get things that they do vote for."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [36:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2193)

> "I'd like ten percent go to education, five percent to infrastructure, you know, and being, be able to, like, list, this is where I want to see my tax money going to, and I want an account back on how you've spent my money."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Making politics work · [36:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2213)

> "The history of humankind has been a history of movement away from the power of the strong towards the power of you and me."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [37:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2237)

> "Well, I'm saying, no, we haven't arrived, we're only at the beginning point. We've actually got to the starting points of the vote mattering and being used."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [37:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2259)

> "The people, if you're going to talk about real representativity, the people, finally, are humble, ordinary, reasonable people, looking for a reasonable way to get through, make their way through this earthly coil."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2430)

> "Look at the people who didn't go. That's always a much more important thing than looking at the people who were involved. Most people aren't involved."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Making politics work · [41:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2486)

> "One thing is you want to change towards a point where you stop changing."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Change and stability · [42:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2525)

> "When you do change to sound politics, you're going to have an awful lot of stability coming out of that. You'll have further changes, but they won't be frightening to you."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Change and stability · [42:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2542)

> "I think that South Africans always find the positive in things, and no matter what happens, we still keep going."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Staying in South Africa · [43:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2581)

> "there's one really simple way that any one of us in ourselves can make a better world around us, which is drop race. Just forget the stuff."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Dropping race · [45:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2718)

> "Non-racial means that you aren't interested in race. The government is fanatically interested in race."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Dropping race · [46:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2782)

> "You're allowed to recognize differences about race too. You just don't make them your religion."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Dropping race · [47:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2823)

> "Three queer South African Buddha running Toronto's transport system. Look at all the talent, just a little representation."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Staying in South Africa · [48:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2888)

> "If they had a choice, be it a country with terrible politics and lovely people, and a country with terrible people and better politics, which one are they going to take?"
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Staying in South Africa · [48:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2918)

> "An excellent human relationship between people with a lot of politics to fix."
> — Denis Beckett, guest · topic: Staying in South Africa · [48:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991982_high.mp3#t=2932)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

In this episode Denis Beckett (journalist, adventurer, TV presenter, radio host and author) talks to host Petro du Pisani about his story and how life has changed for ordinary South African citizens over the years. We talk about his life as a journalist, writing, politics and reading newspapers, and in true Denis Beckett style we go off on a couple of tangents. Connect with Denis on LinkedIn � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #011 Riaan Wolmarans | Dusting off the bookshelf

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/011-dusting-off-the-bookshelf/
- Date: 2018-12-14 (as at 2018-12-14)
- Guest: Riaan Wolmarans
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Books that changed lives, Genre and speculative fiction, Abandoning books guilt-free, Reading habits and tracking, Why people should read, Journalism and reading, Books as gifts
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991985
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3

### About the guest: Riaan Wolmarans

- journalist, editor
- Worked part-time at a library while studying before his journalism career took over; works in a newsroom; collects classic comic books; lived in the UK for a few years.

In their own words:

> "my mother was a primary school teacher, so she ensured that by the time I went to grade one, I was already able to read," [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=84)

> "And that happened, and then I did work part-time at the library in between studying and doing other jobs. And throughout all that time, I've kept reading. I mean, the library job I had to go after a while because my journalism career took over all that time." [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=113)

> "I'm also a collector of classic comic books, among my many other little oddities. So it was quite a good book for me to read just because it very much gave me a bit of a window into the 1930s, 1940s, and 50s in the comic book industry in New York City," [16:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=996)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani and his best friend, journalist Riaan Wolmarans, work through the categories of a Grant Snider cartoon: books they couldn't put down, couldn't pick up, gave each other, took on holiday, and that changed their lives. Riaan brings a lifelong reader's perspective, shaped by working in a library and later in a newsroom. He argues against ranking genre fiction below literary fiction, champions speculative fiction as an escape from daily news, and describes how he catalogues his home library. The host mixes fiction and self-help picks, mentions a hoped-for PhD on change integrity, and closes with reasons to read, including a study he cites on reading and longevity.

**Key ideas**

- Riaan argues there should be little distinction between genre fiction and so-called serious literature; a good story keeps you reading whatever its genre. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=366) [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=391) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1355))
- Both speakers say abandoning a book that does not grip you is acceptable and should carry no guilt. ([08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=514) [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=541) [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637))
- Riaan says speculative fiction gives him an escape from the death, blood and corruption of daily news work. ([24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1494) [27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1622) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1638))
- The host suggests books matter most at particular times in your life, such as Terry Pratchett at university. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=335))
- Riaan admires the short story because writing it demands a high level of craft in a small space. ([35:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2148) [36:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2178))
- Riaan warns that reading websites shortens attention spans and does not teach language, a problem he sees in young newsroom recruits. ([46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2780) [46:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2797) [47:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2821))
- The host cites a Yale study linking daily book reading to longer life and argues that successful people are readers. ([46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2772) [48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896) [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3019))

**Lessons**

- The host gives himself permission to stop a book after five to ten percent if it is not working, and files it on an abandoned shelf. ([10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637))
- Riaan charges his phone in the kitchen overnight so that only a book is within reach in bed. ([49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2945) [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2994))
- The host suggests setting an achievable target such as fifty books a year, as time better spent than social media. ([49:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2949) [50:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3004))
- When buying books as gifts, Riaan suggests supporting someone's new hobby or passing on a book that brought you joy. ([41:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2502) [41:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2517))
- Cataloguing tools help: Riaan uses LibraryThing and the host tracks reading and a to-read list on Goodreads. ([43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2613) [45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746))

**Who it's for:** Keen readers looking for recommendations across fantasy, crime, literary fiction and self-help, people who feel guilty about unfinished books, and anyone curious how a journalist uses fiction to cope with the news cycle.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- The host cites a Yale study of 3,635 people over 50: those reading books 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer. ([48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896))
- Riaan says his household owns more than two thousand books. ([44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2676))
- The host has a Goodreads to-read list of about 130 books. ([45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746))
- The host and Riaan lived together for about three years in Melville. ([11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=690))
- The host read about ten percent of Walter Isaacson's Benjamin Franklin biography in a month before giving up. ([08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=483))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Is it okay to stop reading a book I'm not enjoying?**
A: Yes, both say so. Riaan says you should never feel guilty about abandoning a book, and the host stops after five to ten percent if he isn't getting into it. ([06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=391) [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621) [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637))

**Q: Is genre fiction like fantasy or sci-fi less worthwhile than literary fiction?**
A: Riaan argues there shouldn't be much distinction. He prefers the term speculative fiction and says the idea that it is cheap and trashy is not true. ([06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=366) [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1355))

**Q: Why would a journalist read fantasy novels?**
A: Riaan says the books let him escape a news cycle full of death, blood and corruption, and give him some hope back for humankind. ([27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1622) [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1638))

**Q: Does reading online count as much as reading books?**
A: Riaan argues it doesn't. He says reading websites teaches little about language, shortens attention spans and leads to skipping. He cites a professor who banned technology from his classroom. ([46:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2797) [47:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2821))

**Q: Does reading books help you live longer?**
A: The host cites Yale research on 3,635 people over 50. It found that those who read books for 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer. ([48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896))

**Q: How can I keep track of the books I own and have read?**
A: Riaan catalogues his more than two thousand books on librarything.com. The host logs his reading and a to-read list of about 130 books on Goodreads. ([43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2613) [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2676) [45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746))

**Q: What book would you recommend to someone struggling in life?**
A: The host says The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz is the book he recommends most to people who are struggling. He also credits The Art of Happiness with teaching him that happiness is a choice. ([24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1468) [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1677))

**Q: How can I stop scrolling my phone instead of reading at night?**
A: Riaan charges his phone in the kitchen overnight, so in bed he only has his book to read. ([49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2994))


### Passage: How Riaan became a reader and librarian [01:17–02:17, 223 words]

Note (AI): The guest's own account of his reading origins, his library job and how journalism took over, which establishes who he is.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [01:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=77):
> Well, it's a great way to get knowledge into your head, first of all. But, you know, it's come a long way. I mean, my mother was a primary school teacher, so she ensured that by the time I went to grade one, I was already able to read, and it meant that, you know, when the grade one teacher wanted some time to herself, she would tell little Riaan to read to the class because the rest of them were too stupid to read. So that's where it started, and then I became that little kid who went to the library five times a week and finished all his books by the very next day. And then, of course, that got to the point where the library said, well, why don't you just come and work here, since you're here all the time anyway. And that happened, and then I did work part-time at the library in between studying and doing other jobs. And throughout all that time, I've kept reading. I mean, the library job I had to go after a while because my journalism career took over all that time. I still refer to our house as the Mill Hill Branch Library. It's huge, the collection, and we certainly don't really buy any Kindle books. It's all made of paper.


### Passage: Giving yourself permission to abandon books [08:34–10:53, 502 words]

Note (AI): Both speakers work through why acclaimed books can fail to grip and argue that quitting a book is acceptable.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [08:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=514):
> Well, my example I brought today is a book called Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel. She is obviously a very acclaimed author. The book is highly acclaimed, and I tried, and you can see my bookmark there. It's about a third of the way through, and sometimes you read a book and you realize it's really good, it's well written, and clearly the author has skill in putting those words together on a page, but it just doesn't grip you. Clearly, it's won prizes, so there must be something in there, but you might feel like a bit of a failure, but you're just not going to finish this book, and life's too short. The same thing has happened to me with authors like Irvin Welsh, who tends to write in dialect. That can be very annoying. Especially when the dialogue becomes so almost illegible because you have to translate the dialect as it's written into something that sounds like you can, something you can understand.

Petro du Pisani, host [09:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=561):
> Completely agree. Another book in this category is, I read the first book of Ken Follett's Century Trilogy, which is called Fall of Giants. And while I learned a lot about the First World War and what it was like to live in those times and all of that, after finishing that book, and it took me a long time to read it because it's also one of those tomes, and it was recommended to me by a very special friend who insisted that he loves Ken Follett's books, all of them. So I thought, let me try this book. So I read the first one. And then after I struggle through it, I've decided I'll give myself some time before I do the second book in the trilogy, and I, I think it was about four years ago, and I still haven't read the second book because I just can't bring myself to read more about the war and what Ken Follett does to his characters and makes them suffer. And it's really difficult to, to go through all of the suffering with them, so I'd rather read something a little bit more lighthearted.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [10:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=616):
> True, but also the main thing I think that we should agree on today is that it doesn't matter what you read. As long as you read and you enjoy it, it doesn't matter if it's Terry Pratchett book or a Booker Prize winning novel. Or the Bible or a nonfiction book, as long as you're reading and you're enjoying it. So you should never feel guilty about abandoning a certain book for whatever reason it is.

Petro du Pisani, host [10:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=635):
> Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I've given myself permission to put a book down. If I've read about five to ten percent of it and I'm just not getting into it, it's okay. I can put it onto my abandoned shelf on Goodreads. It's fine. I just put it there and I never go back to it again, and I can forgive myself.


### Passage: Speculative fiction as escape for a journalist [24:54–27:24, 494 words]

Note (AI): The guest explains why inventive fantasy worlds matter to him and ties it to the grind of daily news work.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [24:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1494):
> Just building on what I said about Neil Gaiman, I also brought a book called Abharat by Clive Barker. I mean, he's quite a prolific fantasy author also. He's also very skilled at creating these amazing worlds that you, you can get, just get lost in, and, and the ideas and the creatures and people. In these worlds, it's something quite amazing. And then I brought a book by Chana Miavle that the British author called Unlondon. This specific book is called Unlondon, spelled U N L U N D U N. Now, Chana Miavle I discovered while living in the UK for a few years, and he is basically these other authors like Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker, to the extreme. He takes what they do and makes it into a craft. Not that they're bad authors by any means, but he brings together your kind of fantasy elements with the most amazing ideas that I don't know where on earth he gets them from, and then writes them and brings into that history and philosophy. And all kinds of other interesting sciences and social sciences. And it's written in the most engaging way. You feel like you're learning as you go along about not only about things in your world, but also about just how amazing language can be. I went to a talk by him in London, which was fantastic. And London, for example, is... Imagine, if you will, there's an alternative London in reality, sort of side by side with a normal London, where broken things go. Broken things and broken people, and they end up in this slightly alternate reality that is un-London. he also wrote an amazing book called The City and the City, just to illustrate the way he thinks, and it's being made into a miniseries by the BBC, actually. I don't know how they're going to do it, because it's about two cities, two city-states like Singapore or Monaco, perhaps, that exist in exactly the same location. So you have one city and the buildings, but some buildings are in one city, which is a completely different nation from the other city, and people walk past each other in the street, but they're not allowed to look at some people because those are people from the other city, et cetera, et cetera. So it's those kind of ideas that really keep me engaged. And I think maybe it's, again, my job in a very fact-based environment, and why I say these books change my life is because they give me reason to escape from the world. And you need that as a journalist, because we get so sucked into the terrible news of the day. Everything is death, blood, corruption. I mean, those are the stories that make the news, that sell newspapers. So these books allow me to look at different realities and sort of, you know, get a bit of hope back for humankind.


### Passage: The craft of the short story [35:48–38:03, 431 words]

Note (AI): A worked argument about why short stories demand particular craft, illustrated with Joe Hill's story Pop Art.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [35:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2148):
> Oh, if you read a lot, you always fantasize about would you be able to write the next great American novel, next great horror novel, next great South African novel. But I think an art form that I've always admired in literature is the art of the short story. Obviously, there's great skill involved in writing a five hundred page tome about, you know, whichever topic. But once you start looking into short stories, whether they are genre short stories, horror, fantasy, sci-fi, or about any other topic in the world, the amount of craft, the level of craft that you need to write a story in a thousand words or in four pages and introduce characters and ideas, make the reader love those characters or hate them. And explore that idea in a most delightful fashion before the story comes to an end is a fantastic skill to have. As an example today, I brought along a book by Joe Hill, who happens to be the son of Stephen King, but he's becoming quite a good writer in his own way, also writing speculative fiction, I guess, not horror as much as his dad does, but this book is called Twentieth Century Ghosts, and it's a book of short stories. And some of them are a little bit of fantasy element in there, a bit of a horror element, but some of them are quite straightforward also, but they are marvelously written. And there's one in particular called Pop Art, which starts with the words, My best friend when I was twelve was inflatable. And it's the most wondrous story about this young boy who befriends a new kid at school who is literally inflatable, basically a balloon that can talk and He keeps on floating off by accident and keeps on being bullied by other boys, and this boy befriends the inflatable boy, and they have some adventures together, and then a few interesting things happen to them down the line. And it's only a few pages long, but it is a masterful way of creating this, this little world with these two boys in one of whom is inflatable, and with this element of unexpected magic, I mean, you know, how can they be an inflatable boy? But you make such a silly concept into something really quite serious, and in the end, the story is actually really sad. So it's that kind of craft that I admire. So I think if I had to write a book, I would love to be able to write short stories.


### Passage: Why people should read, from the newsroom [46:12–48:39, 470 words]

Note (AI): Combines the guest's newsroom concern about young non-readers with the host's cited study linking book reading to longevity.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [46:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2772):
> I'm going to answer that in two ways. First of all, as someone working in the media industry, in a newsroom, in a journalism environment, it's a real problem for us that there are young people coming into our newsrooms who don't read books unless they're really forced to at varsity or at school, perhaps. But in beyond that, they just don't read. And when you ask them, do you read anything? They say, yes, I read websites. And reading websites doesn't teach you anything about language or writing or taking in information. Your attention span Get shorter by the day. You skip when you read online. You don't actually take in as much information. That's been scientifically proven. That's why, you know, there's a case of a US college professor who, teaching something to do with technology, IT, I can't exactly remember, but he encouraged his students to use their laptops and iPads to take notes. And then quite recently, he reversed that decision and said he banned all technology from his classroom because he realized by not writing and reading in paper, people were taking in much less information. So certainly professionally, I would encourage people to keep on reading as much as they can. If you want to be a writer of any kind, or just if you want to have a good command of the language and spelling and the way that language flows, reading is the best way to learn that. And then personally, you should always read because it's amazing. I mean, it's the best way to create, to visit the most amazing worlds in your head and to read amazing thoughts by other people. It's a wonderful thing to be able to do.

Petro du Pisani, host [47:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2865):
> It is. I mean, I asked the Google earlier today why people should read books, and I got four sort of answers which I think I can identify with as well. So firstly, reading fiction can help you to be more open-minded and creative. And it's exactly like you're saying, you can visit different worlds, different planets, and you can understand different viewpoints and perspectives, and you won't get that unless you read. And I think you should be reading books in particular. one of the studies by Yale researchers said that people who read live longer. They studied 3,635 people, older than 50, and found that those who read books for 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer than people who don't read at all or who read magazines. So I don't know what the statistic would be for people who read websites or online or that sort of thing, but you live longer. Maybe it's just because you want to see what's going to happen next. I don't know why that would be, but yes.


### Passage: Reading targets and banning the phone [49:05–50:33, 326 words]

Note (AI): Practical habits: a yearly reading target and keeping the phone out of the bedroom so reading replaces scrolling.

Petro du Pisani, host [49:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2945):
> Another reason why it's good to read books is because if you set yourself a target of reading, say, fifty books in a year, it's something you can actually achieve. It's something that's achievable, and also it's time that's well spent. It's not a time looking at your cell phone or catching up on social media. It's actually a good way to spend your time recreationally is to read books.

Riaan Wolmarans, guest [49:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2967):
> I have recently banned my cell phone from the bedroom precisely for that reason, because It's quite easy to, especially in the media industry, but I say it's true for everyone else also. You go to bed, your phone is next to you, you do one final check of your Facebook or your Instagram, and you get sucked into something, and next thing you know, you've been reading for half an hour trivialities on your phone instead of an actual good book. Same thing when you wake up. You wake up with your phone next to you, you get distracted by the overnight notifications that came in. Now I plug my phone into the, in the kitchen, it charges there overnight, and I go to bed, and I only have my book to read.

Petro du Pisani, host [50:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3000):
> And I think that's a great way to spend your time. I mean, of all the stuff that you can learn in books, the best time to start anything new is right now. So imagine all of the stuff that you could learn and know one year from now if you read fifty books. Oh, it's amazing. All the new stuff that could be in your head, all constructive positive stuff. And then the last reason why I think people should read is that successful people are readers. So, because high achievers are keen on self-improvement. If you're not, don't want to learn new things and, and change yourself, then the best way to do that is to read and read books.


### Quotes

> "There's this quote by Harry Truman that not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=31)

> "I still refer to our house as the Mill Hill Branch Library. It's huge, the collection, and we certainly don't really buy any Kindle books. It's all made of paper."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=126)

> "If it's a good story, it's going to keep you And you won't be able to stop reading it."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=391)

> "you might feel like a bit of a failure, but you're just not going to finish this book, and life's too short."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=541)

> "Except my squirrel would, would gather books, not nuts."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1149)

> "The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama, because it taught me that being happy is a choice."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1468)

> "So these books allow me to look at different realities and sort of, you know, get a bit of hope back for humankind."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1638)

> "It's what poetry would look like in a novel form, so I really wanted you to have it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [30:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1845)

> "I hate it when people say, what's your favorite book? Because that changes every month."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [41:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2470)

> "because I think if a book brought me joy, there's something in there that'll make someone else happy,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [41:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2517)

> "you can't really put down the book until You know what happens in the final chapter, so you've just got to keep on living until then."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · [48:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2921)

> "the best time to start anything new is right now. So imagine all of the stuff that you could learn and know one year from now if you read fifty books."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [50:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3004)


### Claims

> "I find it easier to connect with people who are curious about stuff. And I think the best way to find out about stuff and to be flexible in the way you think about things is to read widely."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [00:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=38)

> "my mother was a primary school teacher, so she ensured that by the time I went to grade one, I was already able to read,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [01:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=84)

> "And that happened, and then I did work part-time at the library in between studying and doing other jobs. And throughout all that time, I've kept reading. I mean, the library job I had to go after a while because my journalism career took over all that time."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [01:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=113)

> "in my late twenties and early thirties, I grew an appendage to my arm, which was always the latest Harry Potter book. I think I even took a day off work to finish the last one in the series."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [02:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=174)

> "Because she found out soon after that I had now read the book and loved it, and I think then she realized I wasn't getting any nightmares or having any nightmares, and I was fine to read these books. And so she unleashed me on the adult library,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [04:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=243)

> "I think there's certain books in your life that are very relevant in a certain time period of your life. So I read most of the Terry Pratchett books when I was in university."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=335)

> "I hate making the distinction between genre literature, your sci-fi, speculative fiction, fantasy, horror, and so-called serious literature. I don't think there should be much of a distinction, even though there are different genres, obviously."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [06:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=366)

> "I think the thing I loved about that book was that it was written from eight different perspectives. So you had the story being told from eight different viewpoints, which meant that you could get a different perspective on how each person might perceive a specific event,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [06:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=406)

> "he has a very good way of bringing gay characters into his books in a very natural, integrated way. So without making an issue about a character's sexuality, it is woven into his novels in a fantastic way."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [07:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=447)

> "I started reading Walter Isaacson's biography of Benjamin Franklin, and after reading for a month, just to complete about ten percent of the book, I gave up because it's just so rich in detail. I felt like I was missing out on ten other books by reading this book."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [08:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=483)

> "sometimes you read a book and you realize it's really good, it's well written, and clearly the author has skill in putting those words together on a page, but it just doesn't grip you."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=528)

> "As long as you read and you enjoy it, it doesn't matter if it's Terry Pratchett book or a Booker Prize winning novel. Or the Bible or a nonfiction book, as long as you're reading and you're enjoying it. So you should never feel guilty about abandoning a certain book for whatever reason it is."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [10:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=621)

> "I've given myself permission to put a book down. If I've read about five to ten percent of it and I'm just not getting into it, it's okay. I can put it onto my abandoned shelf on Goodreads."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Abandoning books guilt-free · [10:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=637)

> "just because I work in a newsroom all day in the middle of streams of facts and factual information or non-factual information, as our critics would say. So by the time I get home, when I do read nonfiction, it tends to be a chapter here, a chapter there."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=656)

> "since we lived together for quite some time, probably about three years in Melville, I think we gave each other lots of books and we lent books to and from each other and that sort of thing."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books as gifts · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=690)

> "Now, I know that No rugby-loving Afrikaans male would be seen with a Marian Keys novel in his hands, but actually they all could do with reading it."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [12:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=774)

> "But even though Marian Keyes is chick lit, she also deals with some serious topics as well. I mean, some of the books are about alcoholism or losing somebody and, and being grieving over somebody."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [13:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=826)

> "So when I go on holiday, I always lug around a giant bag of books because I don't believe in a Kindle, doesn't exist."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [14:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=872)

> "so when I go on a holiday, I take my Kindle with me, and I normally have preloaded it with lots and lots and lots of books. And I also do a lot of travel for work, so if I'm flying overseas on aeroplanes, I don't watch any of the movies, I actually read a lot of books."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=902)

> "I'm also a collector of classic comic books, among my many other little oddities. So it was quite a good book for me to read just because it very much gave me a bit of a window into the 1930s, 1940s, and 50s in the comic book industry in New York City,"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [16:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=996)

> "the way that Louise Penny describes how people are eating food just makes you want to eat that food the whole time as well. And I find her books, for me, are like comfort food for the soul."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1026)

> "Dion loves giving this book to people to read, to the point where I think we've probably lost more copies or just given them away permanently than any other book in our house."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books as gifts · [20:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1204)

> "In South Africa about two or three years later, and they brought that same book with them as a present for me. So I had to hide my copy of that book so they didn't see it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books as gifts · [20:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1254)

> "I like the name speculative fiction, because quite often I think science fiction and fantasy got a bad rap because of people think, oh, it's genre literature, and it's cheap and trashy, and it shouldn't be read by serious people. That's in fact not true."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1355)

> "Neil Gaiman is one of the authors that I appreciate because of the way he thinks about things, the way he takes something, an ordinary city, an ordinary idea, and puts something magical into it in a way that you wouldn't expect."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [24:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1449)

> "The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama, because it taught me that being happy is a choice. You don't have to be negative and drown in negativity, you can actually choose to be happy."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [24:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1468)

> "Now, Chana Miavle I discovered while living in the UK for a few years, and he is basically these other authors like Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker, to the extreme."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [25:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1523)

> "why I say these books change my life is because they give me reason to escape from the world. And you need that as a journalist, because we get so sucked into the terrible news of the day. Everything is death, blood, corruption."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [27:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1622)

> "It's a practical guide to personal freedom. So this may also be the book that I recommend to most people to read. If somebody is struggling with something in life, then it's one of the books that I recommend for most people to pick it up and read it."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [27:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1677)

> "Which taught me that even though it's difficult to be individualistic and to stand up for what you think is right, it's the right thing to do."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [28:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1695)

> "the book is set in Barcelona, which is my favorite city in the world. I visited several times, and I always love it there."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books that changed lives · [29:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=1742)

> "I thought it would be about anthropology and that sort of stuff, but then it turned out to be about psychology and atheism, and it was absolutely fascinating to read,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books that changed lives · [33:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2008)

> "And then you start reading it, and it is the bleakest book, I think, in existence. The depths of despair this book puts you through, it certainly made for an interesting, unexpected change from the usual kind of adventurous type writing you find in novels like these."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [35:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2108)

> "the amount of craft, the level of craft that you need to write a story in a thousand words or in four pages and introduce characters and ideas, make the reader love those characters or hate them."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Genre and speculative fiction · [36:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2178)

> "I would just love to take some time off to do a PhD on change integrity. Let's say it would be a business book, but it would be all around teaching corporations how to implement change and doing it in a way that is humane and with integrity"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change with integrity · [38:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2298)

> "you proofread my master's thesis was on the financial benefit of doing borehole radar, which you then said Boreoli radar."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change with integrity · [38:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2328)

> "I think it's modeled on Google probably, where Google is starting to take over your life, where eventually we'll be voting via Google, banking via Google, everything will be online,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Books as gifts · [40:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2410)

> "Something practical in the sense that if you know someone's embarking on a new hobby or something, to give them a book that supports that new interest is always a nice thing to be able to do."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Books as gifts · [41:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2502)

> "all my books are catalogued on a website called librarything.com, which is a great way for anyone to just kind of catalogue the books they have at home"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [43:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2613)

> "we own more than two thousand books in our home, so we run out of space every now and then, and that's when you take a critical look at your bookshelves"
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [44:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2676)

> "So I've got a, a to-read list of probably about 130 books on there at the moment, and it's nice to, when I get stuck,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [45:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2746)

> "it's a real problem for us that there are young people coming into our newsrooms who don't read books unless they're really forced to at varsity or at school, perhaps. But in beyond that, they just don't read."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Journalism and reading · [46:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2780)

> "And reading websites doesn't teach you anything about language or writing or taking in information. Your attention span Get shorter by the day. You skip when you read online."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Why people should read · [46:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2797)

> "he encouraged his students to use their laptops and iPads to take notes. And then quite recently, he reversed that decision and said he banned all technology from his classroom because he realized by not writing and reading in paper, people were taking in much less information."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Why people should read · [47:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2821)

> "They studied 3,635 people, older than 50, and found that those who read books for 30 minutes daily lived an average of 23 months longer than people who don't read at all or who read magazines."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [48:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2896)

> "if you set yourself a target of reading, say, fifty books in a year, it's something you can actually achieve. It's something that's achievable, and also it's time that's well spent."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [49:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2949)

> "Now I plug my phone into the, in the kitchen, it charges there overnight, and I go to bed, and I only have my book to read."
> — Riaan Wolmarans, guest · topic: Reading habits and tracking · [49:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=2994)

> "the last reason why I think people should read is that successful people are readers. So, because high achievers are keen on self-improvement."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Why people should read · [50:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991985_high.mp3#t=3019)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

In this episode we take inspiration from a cartoon by Grant Snider and discuss books in twelve categories; those we couldn't pick up or put down. Books we lent each other. Books we thought were about one thing, then turned out to be about something different. Books that changed us and shaped us through the years. Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #010 Steven Heyman | Yoga and enabling change through mindfulness

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/010-yoga-and-enabling-change-through-mindfulness/
- Date: 2018-11-20 (as at 2018-11-20)
- Guest: Steven Heyman
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Career change into yoga, Mindfulness at work, Stress and burnout, Yoga events and retreats, Body and mind flexibility, Personal transformation
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991987
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3

### About the guest: Steven Heyman

- owner · Yogaworks · Johannesburg
- Grew up in Belgium and studied commercial engineering at the University of Antwerp. Became managing director of a logistics company's local office before resigning; did 200-hour yoga teacher training; runs outdoor yoga events, retreats and mindfulness workshops.
- Links: YogaWorks.co.za

In their own words:

> "And then later on, I became an instructor or sort of a leader for the summer camps, and I did a course to become a guide in the mountains, in the Alps." [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=248)

> "I studied commercial engineering. It's a mix of masters in economics. It was a five-year studies in the University of Antwerp," [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=289)

> "I became the managing director in the end of the local office, and it grew and grew, and our turnover was close to a billion rand, I think, when I left. And, we had about fifty people reporting to me in the end in some way in three different offices." [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=661)

> "At the same time, in that same year, I had been studying to become a yoga teacher. So I did my first 200-hour teacher training. The idea was not to quit my job or to become a yoga teacher, really." [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=756)

> "Sometimes I taught classes for a hundred people, two hundred people at a time, and I'm not sure what drew people to it." [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=886)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with Steven Heyman, a Belgian-born former managing director of a logistics company's Johannesburg office who became a yoga teacher and mindfulness practitioner. Steven describes his route from commercial engineering studies through Nigeria to South Africa, how a trip to India, job stress, yoga teacher training and his first child's birth led him to resign, and how he built a business of pop-up outdoor yoga, retreats and corporate mindfulness workshops. He sets out his view that everything changes, that burnout is sustained stress, that practice matters more than instruction, and he closes by guiding a short mindfulness exercise.

**Key ideas**

- Steven argues that because everything changes, people need to become good at changing themselves or dealing with change, or be left behind. ([00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=35) [20:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1219))
- Steven describes burnout as a sustained period of stress, and yoga and mindfulness as a mechanism to build resilience and return to healthier stress levels. ([25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1544) [25:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1550) [25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1551) [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1582))
- Steven holds that mindfulness is learned through practice, not listening, which is why his most popular workshop runs over seven weeks. ([20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1258) [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1266) [21:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1276) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1358) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1358))
- Steven links body and mind, citing a guru's 'body not stiff, mind stiff' and saying a good space in the body comes first. ([23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1417) [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1417) [24:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1443))
- Steven sees work and life as integrated, so mindfulness skills like focus and communication apply to both. ([21:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1315) [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1323))
- Steven says the real work is inside, not in external achievements such as doing a handstand. ([28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1706) [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1706))
- Steven urges aiming for transformation rather than small incremental changes that people slip back from. ([31:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1916) [32:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1923))

**Short guided mindfulness exercise** ([33:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1987))

1. Sit comfortably wherever you are and close your eyes.
2. Scan through your body and notice how everything is changing: itches, tension, urges to move.
3. Feel the breath moving in and out; notice this inhale and this exhale.
4. Observe any sounds arriving, noticing how they come and go.
5. Bring awareness to your thoughts, like sitting by a river watching them flow by.
6. Take a few deeper breaths and open your eyes when ready.

**Lessons**

- Steven suggests that sometimes growth comes from stepping back and creating space rather than pushing harder, for example by booking a retreat. ([17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1040) [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1048) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1059))
- Steven's own experience suggests that becoming aware of early signs of stress in body and mind lets you step away before reacting. ([25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1544) [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1582))
- Steven reflects that a setback he disliked, the office move, turned out to push him towards a better path. ([11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=660) [25:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1537))
- Steven wishes he had known earlier that he does not have to do things to please others or meet society's expectations. ([01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=69) [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=69))
- Steven says one session followed by a rush back to the desk has no real effect; repeated sessions help install habits. ([21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1266) [21:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1276))

**Who it's for:** Professionals under sustained work stress, people considering leaving a corporate role for a more personal path, and HR or leadership teams weighing mindfulness workshops for staff, as well as anyone curious about starting yoga or going on a retreat.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Steven studied commercial engineering over five years at the University of Antwerp. ([04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=289))
- He lived in Nigeria from about 2003 to 2006, around two and a half years. ([07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=451))
- As managing director, turnover was close to a billion rand, with about fifty people across three offices. ([11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=661))
- He completed a 200-hour yoga teacher training in the same year he resigned. ([12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=756))
- His trip to India lasted about six weeks, roughly eight years before the recording. ([09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=592))
- He has taught outdoor yoga classes for one hundred to two hundred people at a time. ([14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=886))
- His most popular mindfulness workshop runs over seven weeks. ([21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1266))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Steven Heyman go from a logistics executive to a yoga teacher?**
A: He rose to managing director of a logistics company's Johannesburg office, disliked parts of the role, and resigned after an office move, while he had just completed 200-hour yoga teacher training and his first child was born. He began teaching yoga while working out his next step. ([11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=660) [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=661) [11:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=702) [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=756) [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=784))

**Q: Can mindfulness help prevent burnout at work?**
A: Steven says burnout is a sustained period of stress, and yoga and mindfulness build resilience to return to healthier stress levels while helping you notice early warning signs. ([25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1544) [25:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1550) [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1582))

**Q: What does a corporate mindfulness workshop with Steven involve?**
A: Sessions last about an hour and a half to two hours; the most popular runs for seven weeks. Themes include focus, resilience, emotional intelligence, compassion, leadership and communication, plus a Mind Over Money workshop. ([20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1258) [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1266) [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1323) [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1474))

**Q: Why should I go on a yoga retreat?**
A: Steven says to give yourself a break, because advancement does not always come from pushing harder, and a retreat creates space to step back and get out of your own way. ([17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1040) [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1059))

**Q: Is there a link between physical flexibility and adapting to change?**
A: Steven agrees, citing a yoga guru's 'body not stiff, mind stiff': an inflexible mind deposits tension in the body, so a good space in the body comes first. ([23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1417) [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1417) [24:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1443))

**Q: How does Steven know a mindfulness session has worked?**
A: He tries not to talk too much, because people must practise themselves; after a breathing practice there is a silence that shows people tuning into a capacity already there. ([20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1258) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1358) [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1406))

**Q: What books does Steven recommend on yoga?**
A: He recommends Inner Engineering by the Indian mystic and yogi he calls Sadhguru, and the Bhagavad Gita. ([29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1755))

**Q: How can I do a quick mindfulness exercise?**
A: Steven guides listeners to close their eyes, scan the body, notice the breath, observe sounds, watch thoughts like a river, then take deeper breaths and open the eyes. ([33:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1987))


### Passage: From Antwerp to Lagos to Johannesburg [06:22–08:38, 429 words]

Note (AI): Steven's account of how an international logistics career brought him to South Africa, setting up the later career change.

Steven Heyman, guest [06:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=382):
> The first, I was always really interested in traveling and expanding my horizon, let's say, and I thought the best way to expand my horizon was through traveling, and not just little trips and then you come back and settle back into normal life. I wanted to explore a little bit more, and one of the options I had chosen in my studies was international management, and I then set off looking for a job that allowed me to move abroad, maybe not immediately, but after a while, and to travel a lot. And I found this job, an international training company based in Antwerp, and I first worked for about a year in the head office in Antwerp, to be trained in the logistics and the trading and the economical aspects. And after that year, I said, okay, I'm ready. Please send me somewhere. And they said, which country are you interested in? I said, Brazil, immediately Brazil, because I spoke Portuguese and I'm just really keen. And they said, sorry, we don't need anybody there, but we're looking for, somebody in the Africa department. And I said, okay, no problem. And they said, would you like to go to Nigeria to live in Lagos for a couple of years? And I said, yes, this is no problem, I'll go there. So I moved to Nigeria in, I think it was 2003 to 2006, about two and a half years. I lived there, I started up new business, I visited the port, I traveled all around Nigeria, and I was twenty-four, I think, so I didn't know anything about anything. I thought I did, but I didn't. And then, of course, Nigeria is not the easiest country to live in. It is a rather, busy and challenging place. And after a while, I thought, this is really not easy. I would like something a little bit where I have a bit more freedom, let's say, to explore by myself and to go out whenever I want to. And I came on a holiday to South Africa, to Cape Town, the Garden Route, all beautiful places here. And I thought, wow, this is amazing. This is also Africa, actually. I had no idea. I thought the whole of Africa is maybe more like Lagos. But luckily it is not. And then I asked to be transferred to Johannesburg, and the answer was yes, they needed somebody to take over the local office in Joburg, and then I moved here, and I've never left. This is twelve years ago now.


### Passage: Why he resigned as managing director [11:00–13:22, 472 words]

Note (AI): The turning point: job stress, an office move, yoga teacher training and his first child's birth converging into his decision to quit.

Steven Heyman, guest [11:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=660):
> I guess I had a few really tough years. I became the managing director in the end of the local office, and it grew and grew, and our turnover was close to a billion rand, I think, when I left. And, we had about fifty people reporting to me in the end in some way in three different offices. At the same time, I was responsible for the whole Southern Africa region, not just the SADC countries, but all the way to DRC, Kenya, and Uganda. So I traveled a lot and visited all those places and managed all those locations and people and managers. And I was having a tough time because a lot of things Were, I guess, out of my control, and I was also doing more and more of the things I didn't really enjoy. I enjoyed the traveling and the social aspect and developing new projects and business, but I didn't enjoy meeting with lawyers and banks and dealing with HR issues, which is, of course, part of the managing director's job. And then the last straw I remember that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was we had an office in Rosebank and a warehouse in Boxburg, and the head office had decided we had to move the office to join with the warehouse in Boxburg. I lived really close to the office, so now suddenly instead of traveling for fifteen minutes, I had to travel for more than an hour to sit in this dusty office. I remember there was this layer of chemicals on my, keyboard when I finished working, and first I was resisting, no, I don't want to move there, and in the end I just said, forget it, let's go. And I did this for a month, and then I resigned. I had no idea what I wanted to do instead, I resigned. At the same time, in that same year, I had been studying to become a yoga teacher. So I did my first 200-hour teacher training. The idea was not to quit my job or to become a yoga teacher, really. I just wanted to develop my own yoga practice. So this happened exactly at the same time, and one more thing happened. I had my first baby exactly at the same time. So about a week after I did my exam for teacher training and after we had moved to that warehouse office, my first baby was born. And I think in that flash instant, when she was born, I suddenly realized what was important and what was not. And I made the decision, I can't be traveling all over and being really stressed and stuck in traffic and not taking care of me and of course then also the other people around me, so I quit.


### Passage: Taking yoga out of studios into events [14:00–15:13, 246 words]

Note (AI): Shows how he built his yoga business, moving from corporate classes to pop-up outdoor events for large groups.

Steven Heyman, guest [14:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=840):
> I'm not sure, but I guess what happened is I was now without a job, but I was still a little bit in that sort of drive mode and needing to start projects and make money, and this hadn't gone away, so I thought, While I figure out what I'm really going to do, I'm going to teach a bit of yoga, because now I have the certificate, and it allows me to be quite flexible, manage my own time. So I did this, and then I loved it, actually. At first I thought I'm going to teach more corporate classes because that's where the environment I came from, I was more familiar with this, but more and more I started to enjoy the events, like the outdoor yoga and going to an unusual location and just popping up, bringing my yoga mats, inviting some people there, and that actually took off, became really successful. Sometimes I taught classes for a hundred people, two hundred people at a time, and I'm not sure what drew people to it. I guess I was just doing what I really wanted to do, but apparently I wasn't the only one who liked this kind of activity. Basically, I wanted to take yoga out of, out of studios, out of gyms, and offer it everywhere to even a lot of people who wouldn't do yoga otherwise, who would never step into a gym or a studio. That was the intention.


### Passage: How his mindfulness workshops work [20:58–23:28, 492 words]

Note (AI): Explains workshop format, seven-week structure, themes covered and why practice matters more than talk; relevant to corporate buyers.

Petro du Pisani, host [20:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1258):
> How do your mindfulness workshops work? What sort of courses do you do, and what does a typical day look like, and what does it feel like to do one of these?

Steven Heyman, guest [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1266):
> most courses are about an hour and a half to two hours. In length, in a workshop form, and the most popular one, we actually come back for seven weeks. Because if you do one session and you go back to your desk, let's say, or into, you rush into the next meeting, then it has no real effect. But if you keep coming back at a certain time, you really have a chance to, well, install a new habit or at least get inspired to make some changes in your daily routine. So we focus on a subject which has to do with work performance, but of course, work is not separate from life. Let's say you improve your communication skills, you need this for a meeting and with your boss and with your customer, but you need it with your wife and your kids as well. Or if you, say, develop your focus, if you're focused in traffic, you're going to cause less accidents. So I don't think of it as separate from sort of work and the rest of your life. I think the two need to be integrated. And then we explore focus points or themes like focus, resilience, emotional intelligence. It's compassion, it's leadership, it's communication practices. Yes, it's all really interesting, and they all revolve around mindfulness. It's just a look at mindfulness from a different angle that could be used for your daily life.

Petro du Pisani, host [22:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1344):
> So how do you know at the end of a workshop or a session that you've had with people that you've been successful, how do you know that your message has sort of sunk in?

Steven Heyman, guest [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1354):
> I usually know after I practice because I try not to talk too much. If people listen to me for an hour, they won't become more mindful, more focused, or more resilient. They have to practice themselves. And I can only convey this because I practice these things in my own practice, and I have been very stressed before, so I know exactly what it feels like to have 400 emails waiting in your inbox every morning, for example. And I know that I've been successful because after, let's say, a breathing practice, we just take a few couple of breaths, I instruct the people to breathe. We can try it together if you want. And there's this silence afterwards. I don't have to say anything. I don't have to teach people to be mindful because they just take a deep breath and they tune into this capacity that is already there. We overrule it because of our busyness, of course. Now you rush there and you make more money and you get in your car, but just taking a deep breath, that's magic.


### Passage: Mindfulness, stress and preventing burnout [25:44–27:28, 342 words]

Note (AI): Steven's explanation of burnout as sustained stress, and his own story of learning to notice early warning signs.

Petro du Pisani, host [25:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1544):
> How do you think that being more mindful at work can help employees to prevent burnout?

Steven Heyman, guest [25:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1550):
> Can help because burnout is nothing more than a sustained period of stress. Stress, you could say, is a demand on your body. Might be physical stress, say you always run five kilometers and now you sign up for a marathon, that's stressful. Or it might be mental stress, suddenly your boss dumps double the amount on your desk, or he wants it done in half the time, for example. So both are stressful, and we can deal with short periods of stress, but if it keeps at the same level, the same extra demand, then your body and your mind can no longer cope. So we need a mechanism to sort of build our resilience to return to healthier stress levels, and this is exactly what yoga and mindfulness is doing. It builds a capacity in your body to become stronger, more flexible, a bit more balanced, and in your mind to also become stronger, more flexible, and more balanced.

Petro du Pisani, host [26:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1602):
> And maybe to recognize the signs, so you can recognize, oh, these things are triggering me in a specific way, which means, so you're mindful to the things that might potentially lead to stress and burnout in the future, and you can actually have like a early System.

Steven Heyman, guest [26:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1616):
> You're very right. Because actually for years I walked around with high stress levels, enormous tension in my body, the slightest thing would just set me off and I would start shouting or reacting in another very skillful way, let's say. And I was not aware that this was a problem. I just thought, this is how I am. I have this temper or this short fuse, you could say. But more and more, as you become more aware of what's happening in your body, your mind, you become aware of the earliest signs. They're like, this is not really seating. I need to just step outside and go for a walk in the park, for example.


### Passage: Guided short mindfulness exercise [33:07–34:58, 217 words]

Note (AI): A complete, usable mindfulness practice listeners can follow: body, breath, sounds and thoughts.

Steven Heyman, guest [33:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1987):
> So I'll invite you to do this with me. If you can just, wherever you're sitting, make sure you're comfortable and close your eyes. Just close your eyes. And then for a moment, just scan through your body and notice how everything is changing in your body. There's an itch here and a little bit of tension there, and maybe you're moving something or you feel the urge to move a part of your body. And then you can also feel the breath moving in and out. It's a process that continues when you no longer pay attention to it. But you can also notice this inhale right now and this exhale right now. And then for a moment, observe any sounds that arrive In your experience, notice how all the sounds keep changing, they come and they go. And then lastly, bring your awareness to your thoughts. And that's probably the busiest part of all, is endless thoughts passing through your mind. Some stay a little longer, some just pop up and go away. And you can become aware of this stream, almost like you're sitting by a river, and the river flows by with all these thoughts and ideas and plans, and then take a few deeper breaths. And when you're ready, open your eyes.


### Quotes

> "Everything changes, so we better become really good at changing ourselves or dealing with change."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [00:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=35)

> "I wish I'd known that I don't have to do a lot of things to please other people."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=69)

> "she was already doing yoga for quite a few years by then, and I was more into mountain biking, running, going to the gym, or often long periods of not exercising, I guess, because I was traveling a lot, and it's hard to keep some kind of routine. And she started to introduce me to yoga, suggesting that I join her for a class, and first I was like, no, absolutely not. This is ridiculous. This is not a real sport or proper activity. I'm not coming. And then basically she dragged me to a yoga class, kicking and screaming, and I still didn't like it. Oh, I thought it was horrible, because I guess it was horrible because I was so tight in my body and maybe resistant also just to the idea of doing yoga, and I didn't identify with that kind of activity at all."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [08:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=530)

> "And actually, the criterion for me is not what I would draw most people to the event, it's where would I have most fun myself. And it's often I want to go there, and even if nobody else joins me, I would still be happy to go do yoga there by myself."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=933)

> "Actually, the biggest transformation I think of is As not somebody who's studying to be a teacher, but as a, a girl with Down syndrome who comes to all my Yoga in the Park classes every Sunday in Emmarentia. And she used to come with her sister, and she used to be a bit timid, sort of all the way at the back. Whenever we did the balancing pose, the sister had to hold her hand, and she was always looking at the sister for, what should I do next, or am I doing it wrong? And then the sister moved to Durban, and the girl, her name is Sam, she stayed here in Johannesburg, and she kept coming to the yoga classes. I actually helped her find a ride to get here, and to keep coming. And she just sort of blossomed open, was all by herself. She found a way to do all these yoga poses, and she's getting more and more strong and confident and balanced, and I think this is really one of the students that I'm most, proud of."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [16:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=960)

> "sometimes the advancement doesn't come from pushing harder."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [17:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1048)

> "Our biggest sort of problem or, or enemy against our growth is ourselves. Nobody else stops us."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1059)

> "If people listen to me for an hour, they won't become more mindful, more focused, or more resilient. They have to practice themselves."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1358)

> "but just taking a deep breath, that's magic."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [23:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1406)

> "There's actually a famous yoga guru who says, body not stiff, mind stiff."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1417)

> "Like I have one workshop that is called Mind Over Money, and we look at our relationship with money, which for a lot of people is a bit strange, like you grew up, or I grew up at least, thinking, okay, money is sort of on the other side of very hard work and a whole lot of luck, maybe, of things that come your way. But then we also look at purpose, because a lot of us, to be honest, we have enough money. We're okay. We know what we're going to eat next week, and we know that we will have a roof above our heads, so we are sorted. Our basic needs are more than fulfilled, you could say. But now, what is the next step? How do you grow from there and do more than just survive? This is really the topic of some of these sessions. What is your purpose? Are you helping somebody through the work or your activities that you do?"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1474)

> "burnout is nothing more than a sustained period of stress."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [25:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1551)

> "You could do a handstand and be a very stressed person or not a very nice person at the same time."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1706)

> "Because what we forget is you are life. You're not a body that can do certain things or a mind that can do certain things. Yes, so if you forget this, You step into the world and, just do survival things, but if you keep remembering this spark inside you, and now you interact with all other living beings that have the same spark, now things get interesting, and that's what we practice in yoga. You lie still at the end after working hard and doing challenging, poses and sequences, and you are just at one, let's say, with your mind, with your body, there's nothing you have to change."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1812)

> "You have to aim big, aim for the next level."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · [32:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1923)


### Claims

> "I wish I'd known that I don't have to do a lot of things to please other people."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [01:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=69)

> "One definition is that mindfulness means being awake and aware and attending to ourselves and the world around us."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindfulness at work · [01:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=95)

> "I'm from Belgium, originally, and I grew up in a little town at the coast in Belgium."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Background · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=167)

> "And then later on, I became an instructor or sort of a leader for the summer camps, and I did a course to become a guide in the mountains, in the Alps."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Background · [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=248)

> "I studied commercial engineering. It's a mix of masters in economics. It was a five-year studies in the University of Antwerp,"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Background · [04:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=289)

> "So I moved to Nigeria in, I think it was 2003 to 2006, about two and a half years. I lived there, I started up new business, I visited the port, I traveled all around Nigeria,"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=451)

> "And then I asked to be transferred to Johannesburg, and the answer was yes, they needed somebody to take over the local office in Joburg, and then I moved here, and I've never left."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=505)

> "And then basically she dragged me to a yoga class, kicking and screaming, and I still didn't like it."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=558)

> "But what really changes was our trip to India. We traveled to India, I think about eight years ago, and we stayed for quite a long time. I think it was six weeks."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=592)

> "I became the managing director in the end of the local office, and it grew and grew, and our turnover was close to a billion rand, I think, when I left. And, we had about fifty people reporting to me in the end in some way in three different offices."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [11:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=661)

> "I enjoyed the traveling and the social aspect and developing new projects and business, but I didn't enjoy meeting with lawyers and banks and dealing with HR issues, which is, of course, part of the managing director's job."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [11:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=702)

> "At the same time, in that same year, I had been studying to become a yoga teacher. So I did my first 200-hour teacher training. The idea was not to quit my job or to become a yoga teacher, really."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [12:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=756)

> "And I think in that flash instant, when she was born, I suddenly realized what was important and what was not."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [13:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=784)

> "Sometimes I taught classes for a hundred people, two hundred people at a time, and I'm not sure what drew people to it."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Yoga events and retreats · [14:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=886)

> "Basically, I wanted to take yoga out of, out of studios, out of gyms, and offer it everywhere to even a lot of people who wouldn't do yoga otherwise, who would never step into a gym or a studio."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Yoga events and retreats · [15:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=901)

> "And actually, the criterion for me is not what I would draw most people to the event, it's where would I have most fun myself."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Yoga events and retreats · [15:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=933)

> "And then the sister moved to Durban, and the girl, her name is Sam, she stayed here in Johannesburg, and she kept coming to the yoga classes."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [16:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=986)

> "I think you should just, first of all, give yourself a break. You're working hard enough, and you're doing all these things to make money and to advance in life, but sometimes the advancement doesn't come from pushing harder."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Yoga events and retreats · [17:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1040)

> "Our biggest sort of problem or, or enemy against our growth is ourselves. Nobody else stops us."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [17:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1059)

> "but your mind, actually, the capabilities are limitless. The capacity for storage or learning or insight or focus or resilience, can be developed for the rest of your life."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Body and mind flexibility · [19:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1177)

> "So everything changes, so we better become really good at changing ourselves or dealing with change. If you're stuck in a place and the whole world keeps evolving as it does clearly, then you'll be left behind,"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [20:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1219)

> "most courses are about an hour and a half to two hours. In length, in a workshop form, and the most popular one, we actually come back for seven weeks."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [21:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1266)

> "Because if you do one session and you go back to your desk, let's say, or into, you rush into the next meeting, then it has no real effect."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [21:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1276)

> "So I don't think of it as separate from sort of work and the rest of your life. I think the two need to be integrated."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [21:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1315)

> "And then we explore focus points or themes like focus, resilience, emotional intelligence. It's compassion, it's leadership, it's communication practices."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [22:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1323)

> "If people listen to me for an hour, they won't become more mindful, more focused, or more resilient. They have to practice themselves."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1358)

> "There's actually a famous yoga guru who says, body not stiff, mind stiff. That's exactly what he said."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Body and mind flexibility · [23:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1417)

> "It's all really dependent on establishing a good space in your body first, and then you can go out into the world and help people and work on the mental space, the inside."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Body and mind flexibility · [24:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1443)

> "Like I have one workshop that is called Mind Over Money, and we look at our relationship with money,"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1474)

> "maybe if this hadn't happened, I would still be there trying to make things work and be okay at my desk."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Career change into yoga · [25:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1537)

> "Can help because burnout is nothing more than a sustained period of stress. Stress, you could say, is a demand on your body."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Stress and burnout · [25:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1550)

> "So we need a mechanism to sort of build our resilience to return to healthier stress levels, and this is exactly what yoga and mindfulness is doing."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Stress and burnout · [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1582)

> "Because actually for years I walked around with high stress levels, enormous tension in my body, the slightest thing would just set me off and I would start shouting"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Stress and burnout · [26:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1617)

> "You could do a handstand and be a very stressed person or not a very nice person at the same time. But inside is really, that's where the main work is,"
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [28:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1706)

> "We could call it mindfulness or meditation, but some people might call it prayer or reflection or off time or a little moment of contemplation."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Mindfulness at work · [28:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1736)

> "A recent book I've read is called Inner Engineering, and it's by Indian mystic and yogi called Sadhguru."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Resources · [29:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1755)

> "So I would say don't go for little incremental changes where you feel a tiny bit better, and you go right back to the previous. You have to aim big, aim for the next level."
> — Steven Heyman, guest · topic: Personal transformation · [31:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991987_high.mp3#t=1916)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

My guest is Steven Heyman (owner of Yogaworks), whose Vinyasa Flow class is a firm favourite of mine at The Yoga Republic. In this episode we explore how he went from being the managing director of a logistics company to becoming a yoga teacher. We also talk about the practice of mindfulness. YogaWorks.co.za � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #009 Gail Cameron | Coaching and African Leadership

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/009-coaching-and-african-leadership/
- Date: 2018-10-25 (as at 2018-10-25)
- Guest: Gail Cameron
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Coaching career evolution, Emotional intelligence, Social intelligence, Mindfulness and balance, Quantum physics of leadership, Resonant leadership, African leadership qualities, Intentional change process
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991988
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3

### About the guest: Gail Cameron

- founder and managing director · Image Excellence Group
- Founder and managing director of the Image Excellence Group with more than 25 years experience as a leadership coach; fellow of Trinity College London; author of Voice Excellence (1994) and Authentic African Leadership (2013).
- Links: iegroup.co.za

In their own words:

> "So I studied speech and drama through Trinity College, London, and when I started off, I was quite hard-headed, and I just wanted to get a job and get away from home." [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=263)

> "And then, you know, I'd started off lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, and so I'd had a lot of experience in being a voice and speech coach. And I'd written a book called How to Improve Your Accent." [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313)

> "I think I started lecturing at Fubo in 1985, so, and we started the iGroup so long before coaching was popular, long before anybody knew what a coach Was." [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=437)

> "You know, I've coached some of the greatest leaders in this country, and I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that the leaders who made a difference were in power. They were either at courage, neutrality, freedom, love." [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1265)

> "But, I mean, we've never advertised, so all of our work is word of mouth, and it is incredible. We coach people all over the world." [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Gail Cameron, founder of the Image Excellence Group, about how her coaching practice grew from voice and speech work into leadership and life coaching. They draw on excerpts from her book Authentic African Leadership. Gail explains emotional and social intelligence, mindfulness as a remedy for burnout, and an energy-based 'quantum physics' view of leadership, including a map of consciousness. She then describes resonant leadership, the qualities she thinks South Africa needs, and the steps of an intentional change journey in coaching. She draws on personal hardship and more than thirty years in the field.

**Key ideas**

- Gail argues that hardship is the main source of growth and that the best coaches have the deepest scars. ([03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=196) [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=207) [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=242))
- Gail says emotional intelligence accounts for most leadership effectiveness, unlike personality or IQ it can be developed, and it learns through awareness rather than logic. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644) [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684) [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=705) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=727))
- Gail describes social intelligence as reading others accurately, which needs presence and can be trained through techniques like Paul Ekman's micro-expressions. ([00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=6) [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=789) [14:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=885) [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=902))
- Gail frames burnout as a 'sacrifice syndrome' driven by stress hormones, countered by opening pathways to mindfulness, hope and compassion. ([16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=971) [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1025) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1141))
- Gail holds that leaders operate at energetic frequencies on a map of consciousness, and effective leaders like Mandela and Gandhi were 'in power'. ([20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1210) [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216) [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1265) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1286))
- Gail contrasts resonant leaders, who catch people doing things right, with dissonant leaders who make teams crash and burn. ([22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1339) [22:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1372) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1390))
- For South Africa, Gail names vision, ethics, reality and courage as the leadership qualities needed now. ([23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1402) [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1440) [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1467) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1489))

**Intentional change journey** ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561) [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1573) [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1606))

1. Become aware of who you are, including your strengths.
2. Understand your growth areas.
3. Develop a learning agenda from that awareness.
4. Work through trusting relationships with your coach and people around you.
5. Practise the new behaviour in safe environments.
6. Try it in higher risk environments, where behavioural change occurs.

**Lessons**

- Gail advises using video and role-play so clients can see themselves, since awareness precedes behavioural change. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644) [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=735))
- Gail says knowing your values matters because the greatest conflicts arise when non-negotiable values are compromised. ([18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1116))
- Gail stresses that self-care comes first: you cannot save anybody until you put your own life jacket on. ([00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=31) [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216))
- Gail notes coaching works best when clients arrive open-minded and take ownership rather than being sent as 'hostages'. ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561) [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1624) [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1664))
- Gail, quoting a mentor, argues that you cannot control the vagaries of each day, only your attitude. ([25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1525) [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1526))

**Who it's for:** Managers, professionals facing burnout, and people considering executive or life coaching who want an experienced South African coach's view on emotional intelligence, mindfulness and leadership, including listeners interested in energy-based ideas about leadership.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Gail says she started lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, in 1985. ([05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313) [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=437))
- In 2000 Gail's youngest son had a brain tumour and nearly died. ([06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=380))
- Gail says a South African professor took seventeen years to develop the Bar-On EQ-i instrument, called 'Bar-On EQI' in the transcript. ([10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644))
- Gail states ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. ([11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684))
- Gail says social intelligence evolved from about 2003, first observed at a Swedish conference. ([08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=537))
- On Gail's map of consciousness, shame sits at the bottom at twenty microwatts. ([20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216))
- Gail says everybody at the FBI has to learn Paul Ekman's micro-expression technique. ([14:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=885))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How did Gail Cameron get into coaching?**
A: After her divorce she needed to support two small boys. She published a book on improving your accent with a bank loan. When readers called asking for help with discrimination, she realised she had a business case. ([04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=297) [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=299) [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313) [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=344))

**Q: Can emotional intelligence be learned?**
A: Gail says yes: unlike personality or IQ, every aspect of EQ can be developed. It learns through awareness, dedication and commitment rather than a logical linear process. ([11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=705) [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=727))

**Q: How important is emotional intelligence for leaders?**
A: Gail states that ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. In her view technical competency is only a baseline competence. ([11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684))

**Q: What is the difference between emotional and social intelligence?**
A: Gail describes social intelligence as the communicative arm of EQ: reading accurately what is in front of you and responding appropriately. She says this requires being present and mindful. ([08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=537) [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=789))

**Q: How can I avoid burnout and find balance?**
A: Gail says success is an inside job. She suggests opening pathways to mindfulness, starting with conscious awareness of self and understanding your values. This leads to hope and compassion. ([16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=971) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043) [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1116) [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1141))

**Q: What is a resonant leader?**
A: According to Gail, resonant leaders are positive, optimistic, have a sense of humour, like people and catch people doing things right. They create environments where teams catch fire. ([22:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1372) [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1390))

**Q: What leadership qualities does South Africa need now?**
A: Gail names vision communicated so followers take ownership, ethics, being steeped in reality, and courage to go where the pain is. ([24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1440) [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1467) [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1489))

**Q: How do I know if I'm ready for coaching?**
A: Gail says self-awareness is key. People sent by their companies struggle until they see coaching as contributing to their own development and take ownership. ([26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561) [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1573) [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1624))

**Q: How does Gail's business find clients?**
A: Gail says they have never advertised. All their work is word of mouth, and they coach people all over the world. ([28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735) [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735))


### Passage: From divorce and a son's illness to coaching [04:57–07:05, 426 words]

Note (AI): Gail's own account of how financial necessity and her son's near death shaped her move from voice coaching into leadership and life coaching.

Gail Cameron, guest [04:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=297):
> So it's, again, life experiences. So having just got divorced, I had two small boys, and the youngest was not even a year old, and I had to support them. I had no other means of supporting them. And so I, I realized I'd have to get a job, a real job. And then, you know, I'd started off lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, and so I'd had a lot of experience in being a voice and speech coach. And I'd written a book called How to Improve Your Accent. And so I went to the bank and I said, I need a bank loan. I want to get this book published. And the bank manager said, come back with some cash flow projections and budget. And I can remember phoning a friend of mine and saying, how do I do this? I've no idea. And he helped me put it together. They lent me the money. I published the book. And what was overwhelming was, was when the book was published. Then People would start calling and saying, I've suffered the same social and professional discrimination. Can you help me? And that's when I realized I, you know, I had a business case.

Petro du Pisani, host [05:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=358):
> So it started off very much with voice and communication type coaching, but then you evolved from there. So how did that evolution happen?

Gail Cameron, guest [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=367):
> Yes, it was more communication, and then I sort of got into leadership, but I was a very kind of hard-nosed, you know, leadership coach, and you were either right or you were wrong, and if you didn't want to sort of get the stuff, you had to get off the bus. And then in 2000, I almost lost my youngest son. He had a brain tumor, and basically he was, he was going to die. And a miracle happened, and basically his life was saved. And I can remember that night as he was dying, I basically, in the ICU, I sort of went on my knees and I started praying, and I just said, if you let him live, I'll do your work. And then it was the strangest thing, because it was very imperceptible how my work changed, but I was not even conscious of how it had shifted. A lot of clients started coming to me then who had serious obstacles in their lives, and how could I help them? And then my work moved more into life coaching. I guess that's what it's been over the last 18 years.


### Passage: How her coaching offer evolved over decades [08:19–10:09, 317 words]

Note (AI): Traces the sequence from image and voice work through business English and EQ to life coaching, and names lack of self-regard as the core problem.

Gail Cameron, guest [08:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=499):
> So it's interesting how the whole business coaching and the coaching concept has evolved. So we started off with voice and speech communication. We did a lot of image consulting in those days. And then the leadership evolved, and then I thought, well, you can look good, sound good, but if you don't command the language, you're not going anywhere either. And I'd come from a second language speaking environment. So then we started doing business English. That became quite a big focus. And then I realized, no, Is, is definitely another piece missing here because, you know, especially when a client had an obstacle, it was impeding them from performing at the optimum. And that's really how emotional intelligence came into it. From emotional intelligence, the communicative arm of that, which is social intelligence, evolved from about 2003. I think that's where it was first observed at a Swedish conference. And then, of course, I realized, well, it's an inside job. It's really about how people are coping with what's going on in their lives, not necessarily their professional skills, and that's really how the life coaching evolved. So it really has, you know, come full circle, I think.

Petro du Pisani, host [09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=569):
> That's so interesting. What are some of the biggest transformations you've seen, and how has that made you feel?

Gail Cameron, guest [09:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=575):
> I think some of the biggest transformations have really been about People suddenly waking up to their own potential. I think that's the most rewarding one. The greatest dysfunctionality I've seen in thirty years of being in this business is the lack of self-regard. And I think all of us, to a greater or less extent, suffer from a lack of self-regard. So the greatest transformation will come from when suddenly that person realizes that they actually had it all the time and that the power has been restored into their own hands where it was all along.


### Passage: Emotional intelligence: the Bar-On instrument and how EQ learns [10:44–12:46, 310 words]

Note (AI): Explains what EQ measures, why it can be developed unlike personality or IQ, and her video role-play technique for building awareness.

Gail Cameron, guest [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644):
> So the great thing is that very few people know this, but that a South African leads the field globally in emotional intelligence. So Professor Bar-On did his PhD at Rhodes, and it took him seventeen years to develop this instrument, and it's called the Bar-On EQI. And what emotional intelligence does, it looks at intrapersonal competencies, which is kind of how you know yourself, how you can regulate those emotions, but it also looks at the way in which you can read other people and how you would respond to that. So it's a beautiful instrument. It gives a scientific detail. But the interesting thing about EQ is that ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. In fact, technical competency today is regarded as a baseline competence. It will get you the job, it will get the job done, but the biggest difference lies in the way in which you do that job. So therefore, it's different to personality assessments, because you can't really shift the personality. It's completely different to IQ, because that deals with cognitive elements, but you can develop every aspect of emotional intelligence, and I think that's the great thing. But the important thing with developing emotional intelligence is how the emotional intelligent brain learns. So it learns through awareness, dedication, and commitment. So it doesn't learn through a logical linear process. So the best way to do this with clients, although they really kick against it at times, is to video them, put them into role-play simulations so that they can see themselves. And especially people who've got these very high processing left brains, you know, like accountants and like engineers, especially, when they see themselves is when they realize, okay, so perhaps I can tweak this or that. And that's the awareness that precedes change that creates the behavioral change.


### Passage: Three pathways to mindfulness, hope and compassion [17:23–19:40, 373 words]

Note (AI): Gail's practical answer to burnout: self-knowledge, values work, hope and compassion, framed as a counter to the sacrifice syndrome.

Gail Cameron, guest [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043):
> The only way to avert this is to open the pathways to mindfulness. So there's actually three pathways we open. So the first is conscious awareness of self. Heart, mind, body, spirit. And it's answering those big questions like, who am I? So there's a lot of people I coach who have no idea who they are. They have no idea that your thoughts create your life. A gift we've been given is that we can create with our thoughts. Equally, we can dig a big hole and bury ourselves, and that's where the sacrifice syndrome comes in. But you can also use those thoughts, you can change them to a positive frequency. You can change your thoughts, feelings, and intentions, and when you do that, it changes your life. So first of all, go in and find out who you are. And you can do this by looking at exercises about your personal vision. You can look at your future vision. So what is your philosophical orientation? There's nothing new about this stuff. Sophocles said, know thyself. So this is a way of excavating and, and really getting in touch with who you are in a very deep way. Understanding your values is critical. Our greatest conflicts occur when those values are compromised. Why? Because they're not negotiable. Most people don't even know what they are, and they evolve over time. So it's actually quite an easy exercise. And what we'll do is I'll send you some exercises that people can do to excavate and know themselves if they want to explore this further. It's really not complicated. When you've opened mindfulness, it leads to hope. And it is when hope is aroused, it leads to compassion. And compassion is empathy and caring in action, and it starts with the individual. You cannot save anybody until you put your own life jacket on first. So basically, when you work on those three elements, it opens up neurons begin to fire on the left-hand side of the prefrontal cortex. The good hormones flood the body. You do that over a long period, it leads to feeling excited, optimistic, hopeful, looking forward to the future. So it's really not a complicated process at all.


### Passage: The map of consciousness and leaders in power [20:10–22:45, 440 words]

Note (AI): Sets out her energy-frequency view of leadership, using Gandhi and Mandela as examples and linking it to resonant versus dissonant leaders.

Gail Cameron, guest [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1210):
> We are powerful energetic beings, and the interesting thing is that You can increase your frequency. So the whole map of consciousness has happened. We measure it in microwatts of energy, and they are very low frequency vibrations, so at the very bottom sits shame, which is twenty microwatts, and we can see it in shame cultures, where women are banished, stoned to death. Then as you go up the ladder, it's kind of guilt, and then grief. We are all plunged to levels of grief at moments of our life, but it's to stay down there is destructive. And then it goes up through fear, anger, and even pride. Pride is a negative. So one of our big banks had it in its strapline a few years ago. They've removed it because they've been exposed to the map of consciousness. And then we get up to courage, and courage is actually the point at which everything moves into power. You know, I've coached some of the greatest leaders in this country, and I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that the leaders who made a difference were in power. They were either at courage, neutrality, freedom, love. So it explains why a small, feeble man with the construct of Satyagraha could overturn the British Empire. So Gandhi was completely in power. It explains why a man with love and forgiveness in his heart, despite being in jail for 27 years, could come out of jail and negotiate his country out of a revolution. Mandela was completely in power. These different energetic frequencies have been measured. When you're in the lower frequencies, that's where all the crocodiles are swimming, and that's when life is difficult. People are taking chunks out of you. So the responsibility of life is to increase your consciousness. When you do that, you, to a certain extent, raise the consciousness of everybody around you. So we measure it in laboratories. So just as an example, I bring two people into a laboratory, measure their heart rate, temperature, and they're completely different. We put them together for a fifteen-minute conversation, measure them again. They were incomplete, some part ago with one another, beginning to reflect one another's body rhythms. So people catch feelings. The person who adds a stronger seasoning into that is the leader. So therefore, being a resonant leader, being positive, catching people doing things right, and believing in people, you create a whole virtuous cycle where reflective parts of the brain open, and you will be able to stretch and reach. But your dissonant leaders will obviously have the opposite effect. It's all physics.


### Passage: The intentional change journey in coaching [26:01–27:29, 245 words]

Note (AI): Step-by-step description of how coaching produces behavioural change, and why clients who are sent against their will struggle until they take ownership.

Gail Cameron, guest [26:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1561):
> So the key is self-awareness. We also measure it in terms of emotional intelligence, but without self-awareness, it's very, very difficult to create the change. So if we look at an intentional change journey, and this is a scientific process, you first need to be aware of who you are, and that is knowing where your strengths are. That's equally important because those strengths need to be bolstered, but then also understanding, so where are my growth areas? And then developing a learning agenda from that, but it's got to be done through trusting relationships with your coach and other people who are around you. So that may be a line manager or it may be your partner in your life, but trusting relationships. And then you should get an opportunity to practice it. So in safe environments. And then you get to try it in higher risk environments, and that's where the new neurons develop, and that's how behavioral change occurs. So it's actually quite a simple process, but the self-awareness is key. So we've sometimes had hostages, people who've been sent there because they're not achieving, for whatever reason, the objectives that company wants. And it's very, very difficult to kind of turn that person around until they begin to realize, well, actually, this is going to contribute to my personal development. It doesn't matter where I go, what I do, but this can improve my life, and that's when they take ownership.


### Quotes

> "If you're in business and you can really read what people are thinking, feeling, intending, it gives you the upper hand in any communication."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [00:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=6)

> "You cannot save anybody until you put your own life jacket on first."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [00:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=31)

> "You are your greatest desires, because within you, you have the capability to create with your thoughts. Choose the positive route. It's in your hands."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [00:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=40)

> "And I said, the best coaches have the deepest scars."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [03:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=207)

> "The greatest dysfunctionality I've seen in thirty years of being in this business is the lack of self-regard."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=585)

> "It explains why a man with love and forgiveness in his heart, despite being in jail for 27 years, could come out of jail and negotiate his country out of a revolution. Mandela was completely in power."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1286)

> "When you're in the lower frequencies, that's where all the crocodiles are swimming, and that's when life is difficult. People are taking chunks out of you."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [21:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1302)

> "Dissonant leaders are negative, cynical, abrasive, catch people doing things wrong. And they create environments in which teams crash and burn."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [23:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1382)

> "But the resonant leader creates environments in which teams catch fire, break the records."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [23:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1390)

> "you have no control over the vagaries that are going to come across your desk every day, but what you can control is your attitude."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1526)

> "is to be open-minded. And, you know, just recently I've had a client who came in there who was in a very, very bad space. So one can say that he'd hit rock bottom."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [27:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1655)

> "But, I mean, we've never advertised, so all of our work is word of mouth,"
> — Gail Cameron, guest · [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735)


### Claims

> "I think there's always been a caring side to me, but I think it's life circumstances that mould you. So it's like a client said to me one day, so what makes a good coach? And I said, the best coaches have the deepest scars."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [03:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=196)

> "Yes, I believe the great lessons in life come from hardship, and it's really only hardship that there are gains of self-development, although most of us are trying very hard to escape it, escape the very lessons that we've come here to learn, but it really is the moulding influence."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [04:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=242)

> "So I studied speech and drama through Trinity College, London, and when I started off, I was quite hard-headed, and I just wanted to get a job and get away from home."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [04:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=263)

> "So having just got divorced, I had two small boys, and the youngest was not even a year old, and I had to support them. I had no other means of supporting them."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [04:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=299)

> "And then, you know, I'd started off lecturing at FUBA, the Federated Union of Black Artists, and so I'd had a lot of experience in being a voice and speech coach. And I'd written a book called How to Improve Your Accent."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=313)

> "And what was overwhelming was, was when the book was published. Then People would start calling and saying, I've suffered the same social and professional discrimination. Can you help me? And that's when I realized I, you know, I had a business case."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [05:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=344)

> "And then in 2000, I almost lost my youngest son. He had a brain tumor, and basically he was, he was going to die. And a miracle happened, and basically his life was saved."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [06:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=380)

> "A lot of clients started coming to me then who had serious obstacles in their lives, and how could I help them? And then my work moved more into life coaching. I guess that's what it's been over the last 18 years."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [06:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=413)

> "I think I started lecturing at Fubo in 1985, so, and we started the iGroup so long before coaching was popular, long before anybody knew what a coach Was."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [07:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=437)

> "So we started off with voice and speech communication. We did a lot of image consulting in those days. And then the leadership evolved, and then I thought, well, you can look good, sound good, but if you don't command the language, you're not going anywhere either."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [08:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=504)

> "And that's really how emotional intelligence came into it. From emotional intelligence, the communicative arm of that, which is social intelligence, evolved from about 2003. I think that's where it was first observed at a Swedish conference."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [08:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=537)

> "The greatest dysfunctionality I've seen in thirty years of being in this business is the lack of self-regard. And I think all of us, to a greater or less extent, suffer from a lack of self-regard."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=585)

> "So the great thing is that very few people know this, but that a South African leads the field globally in emotional intelligence. So Professor Bar-On did his PhD at Rhodes, and it took him seventeen years to develop this instrument, and it's called the Bar-On EQI."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [10:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=644)

> "But the interesting thing about EQ is that ninety-three percent of leadership effectiveness is entrenched in emotional intelligence. In fact, technical competency today is regarded as a baseline competence. It will get you the job, it will get the job done, but the biggest difference lies in the way in which you do that job."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [11:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=684)

> "So therefore, it's different to personality assessments, because you can't really shift the personality. It's completely different to IQ, because that deals with cognitive elements, but you can develop every aspect of emotional intelligence, and I think that's the great thing."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [11:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=705)

> "So it learns through awareness, dedication, and commitment. So it doesn't learn through a logical linear process."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [12:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=727)

> "So the best way to do this with clients, although they really kick against it at times, is to video them, put them into role-play simulations so that they can see themselves."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Emotional intelligence · [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=735)

> "And that's also because most of us are not present. We're not mindful. So we're in a meeting, but we're actually thinking about yesterday and we're planning the future."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [13:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=789)

> "people at the very top end of the bell curve, in terms of IQ, it's almost as though that IQ muscle has strengthened at the expense of the EQ muscle."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [14:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=854)

> "So the leader in this area in the world is a guy called Professor Paul Ekman. He's developed the micro-expression technique. And you can go online and you can learn, you can sensitize yourself. So everybody at the FBI has to learn micro-expression technique."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [14:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=885)

> "if you, a US embassy official working in an embassy is filling in an application for a candidate, and he notices a fleeting expression that he doesn't like, goes next door, he puts this man's name into the Interpol computer, up comes his name on the most wanted list."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Social intelligence · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=902)

> "So I work in a department at the moment where many of us spend a lot of time away from home, and you have to really make a concerted effort to find balance."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [15:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=958)

> "So the only pathway to success is inside. It is an inside job, and I work with many young professionals who burn out, so it's called a sacrifice syndrome. That's a clinical term."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=971)

> "And it's the stress hormone that makes all the changes. It raises your blood pressure, it increases your heart rate, and if it's left unchecked over long periods, it can trigger anabolic endorphins in the body which cause disease."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [17:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1025)

> "The only way to avert this is to open the pathways to mindfulness. So there's actually three pathways we open. So the first is conscious awareness of self. Heart, mind, body, spirit."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [17:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1043)

> "Understanding your values is critical. Our greatest conflicts occur when those values are compromised. Why? Because they're not negotiable. Most people don't even know what they are, and they evolve over time."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [18:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1116)

> "When you've opened mindfulness, it leads to hope. And it is when hope is aroused, it leads to compassion. And compassion is empathy and caring in action, and it starts with the individual."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Mindfulness and balance · [19:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1141)

> "So the whole map of consciousness has happened. We measure it in microwatts of energy, and they are very low frequency vibrations, so at the very bottom sits shame, which is twenty microwatts, and we can see it in shame cultures, where women are banished, stoned to death."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [20:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1216)

> "You know, I've coached some of the greatest leaders in this country, and I've absolutely no doubt in my mind that the leaders who made a difference were in power. They were either at courage, neutrality, freedom, love."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [21:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1265)

> "So just as an example, I bring two people into a laboratory, measure their heart rate, temperature, and they're completely different. We put them together for a fifteen-minute conversation, measure them again."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [22:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1322)

> "So people catch feelings. The person who adds a stronger seasoning into that is the leader. So therefore, being a resonant leader, being positive, catching people doing things right, and believing in people, you create a whole virtuous cycle where reflective parts of the brain open, and you will be able to stretch and reach."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Resonant leadership · [22:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1339)

> "So resonant leaders are positive, they're optimistic, they have a sense of humor, by the way, that's an EQ hallmark. They like people. They catch people doing things right. Dissonant leaders are negative, cynical, abrasive, catch people doing things wrong."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Resonant leadership · [22:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1372)

> "In South Africa, we've been going through this massive change of leadership over the last couple of years, and I think had a quite an emotional journey from when we became a new democracy in 1994 to now, to going through this last couple of years of state capture and all of that."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: African leadership qualities · [23:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1402)

> "It's really about thinking big, new, and ahead, but it's being able to communicate that vision from a mutually beneficial platform to allow the follower to take ownership. Leadership's about followers."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [24:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1440)

> "Most of the effective leaders will align themselves with a set of values quite early in life, and they will navigate unwaveringly by those values. Then also reality."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [24:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1467)

> "And lastly, I think one of the most important ones is courage, is having the courage to live your life to its full potential, to go where the pain is."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1489)

> "he said, you have no control over the vagaries that are going to come across your desk every day, but what you can control is your attitude."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: African leadership qualities · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1525)

> "So if we look at an intentional change journey, and this is a scientific process, you first need to be aware of who you are, and that is knowing where your strengths are."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [26:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1573)

> "And then you should get an opportunity to practice it. So in safe environments. And then you get to try it in higher risk environments, and that's where the new neurons develop, and that's how behavioral change occurs."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [26:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1606)

> "So we've sometimes had hostages, people who've been sent there because they're not achieving, for whatever reason, the objectives that company wants."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [27:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1624)

> "So he'd been in the hospitality industry. It's quite a brutal industry because of the hours that they work and so on, and his life experiences. But the wonderful thing was that he was ready."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Intentional change process · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1664)

> "But, I mean, we've never advertised, so all of our work is word of mouth, and it is incredible. We coach people all over the world."
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Coaching career evolution · [28:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1735)

> "It depends on, you know, what you describe as success, but I really think it's not about having more. It's really about your behavior, and we can all, in terms of that behavior, create a positive life for ourselves,"
> — Gail Cameron, guest · topic: Quantum physics of leadership · [30:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991988_high.mp3#t=1828)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Gail Cameron (MD of the Image Excellence Group) on how executive and life coaching has evolved over the past 30 years. They discuss excerpts from Gail's book "Authentic African Leadership," and touch on topics such as Emotional Intelligence, Social Intelligence, Resonant Leadership and the Quantum Physics of Leadership. iegroup.co.za · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #008 Corrie Pitzer | Resilience Engineering in Safety

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/008-resilience-engineering-in-safety/
- Date: 2018-09-24 (as at 2018-09-24)
- Guest: Corrie Pitzer
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Resilience engineering, Zero harm and fake safety, Human risk competence, Accident causation models, Safety culture change, Proactive risk identification, Career path into safety
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991989
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3

### About the guest: Corrie Pitzer

- CEO · Safemap International · Vancouver
- Worked in the resources industry for ten years as a senior executive for BHP Billiton, then founded Safemap International in 1994; named ASSE's 2013 Mining Practice Speciality Safety Professional of the Year; studied industrial psychology.

In their own words:

> "I studied industrial psychology. Actually, I have no idea why, why I went that way. It was just an interesting field, and, so I, I studied honors and masters in that field." [05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=318)

> "I, found a job as a human resource manager in a platinum mine in South Africa. It was, Impala Platinum at the time. And that's where I started to develop a focus in safety." [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=370)

> "I just realized I want to do my own thing, and I want to do it in safety, and that's when I started Safemap. I resigned, so I gave up a significant career in order to start my business with nothing," [10:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=622)

> "A lot of our success came from people talking about us to the next person. We hardly do any advertising." [42:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2559)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani interviews Corrie Pitzer, founder of Safemap International, about resilience engineering in safety. Pitzer traces his path from industrial psychology and HR at a platinum mine into safety after delivering news of fatal accidents to families. He argues that zero-harm targets are a moral imperative but drive under-reporting and 'fake safety'. He says linear root-cause models no longer fit complex organisations, and that humans are the strongest control against dynamic risk. He favours proactive searching for risk exposures ('far misses') over analysing past events. He also outlines how Safemap changes safety culture, starting with an organisation's statement of intent and ending in behavioural shift.

**Key ideas**

- Pitzer argues zero harm is a moral imperative and a powerful change initiative, but turning it into KPIs and rewards drives suppression of information and false safety numbers. ([00:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=16) [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=887) [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=912) [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=970) [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=994))
- Pitzer describes fake safety as busy, visible add-on activity that is not built into production and planning processes. ([17:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1046) [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1132) [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1149))
- Pitzer holds that humans are the smartest risk controllers and that procedures and engineering which cocoon workers dumb them down. ([11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=713) [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=713) [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1328) [27:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1631))
- Pitzer says accidents in complex organisations have multiple interacting causes, so there are no single root causes anymore. ([22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1376) [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1450) [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1453))
- Pitzer proposes searching for 'far misses', meaning current risk exposures, instead of spending heavily on analysing rare past events and near misses. ([30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1823) [31:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1884) [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1904) [32:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1954))
- Pitzer defines safety as the readiness to respond to risk, not the absence of accidents, drawing on resilience engineering and anti-fragility. ([13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=822) [20:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1202) [20:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1241) [38:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2306))
- Pitzer argues that change and innovation are the enemies of safety management, and that the safety profession must learn to support experimentation. ([46:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2815) [47:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2852))

**Safemap culture change process** ([39:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2351) [39:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2370) [40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2430))

1. Change the organisation's definition of intent to what it should be.
2. Create capability and shared understanding of that intent at executive level.
3. Build the same belief throughout the organisation, down to front-line employees.
4. Change the beliefs, thinking and actions of the leadership group down to supervisor level.
5. Review the organisation's systems and re-engineer those that pull away from the intent.
6. Behavioural adaptation to the new intent follows, and that behavioural shift is the culture change.

**Lessons**

- Pitzer warns that attaching rewards to accident-free numbers leads workers to avoid reporting, which makes the figures look better without improving safety. ([16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=994) [44:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2680))
- According to Pitzer, blame-based disciplinary processes undermine reporting, so consequence management must support a reporting culture. ([41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2487) [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2487))
- Pitzer advises that training should be experiential and open-ended so people learn to judge variable situations themselves. ([28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1699))
- Pitzer says checklists suit aviation but create bureaucracy and boredom when applied to many dispersed front-line workers; dynamic, physical controls work better. ([33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1999) [34:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2068) [34:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2094))
- Pitzer suggests rotating a daily risk-observer role within production crews to keep teams looking at their risks and talking openly about them. ([36:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2187))

**Who it's for:** Safety managers, mining and high-risk industry leaders, and consultants who want to question zero-harm targets, compliance-heavy systems and root-cause analysis, and who want an example of how a safety culture change is sequenced.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Pitzer was born in 1956 on a farm in what was then Northern Transvaal, South Africa. ([02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=178))
- The host says Pitzer was a senior executive at BHP Billiton for ten years and founded Safemap International in 1994. ([01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=101))
- The host says Pitzer was named ASSE's 2013 Mining Practice Speciality Safety Professional of the Year. ([02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=120))
- Pitzer worked as a human resource manager at Impala Platinum before moving into safety. ([06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=370))
- Pitzer describes a US utility client of about thirty thousand people as the most dramatic culture shift he has seen. ([44:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2696))
- Pitzer says South African mining's safety management and audit systems were probably the world's most advanced in the seventies and eighties. ([14:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=846))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Is aiming for zero harm in safety a bad idea?**
A: Pitzer says zero harm is a moral imperative and has driven accident rates down. Once it becomes a KPI with rewards attached, though, it produces suppression of information, fudged data and under-reporting. ([14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=887) [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=912) [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=970) [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=994))

**Q: What is fake safety?**
A: Pitzer calls fake safety the add-on programmes that look busy and make noise but are not built into production and planning. The host recalls his definition: managers pretend to be serious and employees pretend to believe them. ([17:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1046) [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1132) [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1149))

**Q: What does resilience engineering mean in safety?**
A: Pitzer attributes the term to Erik Hollnagel. He describes it as an organisation building the capability to respond to, withstand and handle risk and become stronger. He would like safety to go further, towards anti-fragility. ([13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=822) [20:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1202) [20:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1241))

**Q: Do root cause analyses still work for workplace accidents?**
A: Pitzer argues that in today's complex organisations accidents have multiple interacting causes embedded in the organisation. In his view there are no root causes anymore, and linear models no longer explain accidents. ([22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1376) [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1450))

**Q: Are near misses useful for predicting serious accidents?**
A: Pitzer sees a near miss as almost the same as an accident: rare, too late and past information. He prefers searching out current risk exposures, which he calls 'far misses', and looking dynamically forward. ([31:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1884) [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1904) [32:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1954))

**Q: Should workers always follow standard operating procedures?**
A: Pitzer cites a shuttle pilot: the quickest way to get killed is not following SOPs, and the second quickest is always following them. He is not arguing for rule breaking, but he warns that people blindly following rules think less about risk. ([01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=71) [27:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1631))

**Q: How do you change an organisation's safety culture?**
A: Pitzer's process starts by redefining the organisation's intent. It then builds shared belief at executive level and down to the front line, changes leadership behaviour to supervisor level, and re-engineers misaligned systems. Behavioural change, which is the culture, follows. ([39:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2351) [39:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2370) [40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2430))

**Q: Can big data predict safety failures?**
A: Pitzer thinks analysis capability will improve. He says the real problem is sourcing the data, given how much time organisations with tight margins can spend collecting it. ([25:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1510))


### Passage: Two fatal accidents that launched a safety career [06:28–08:44, 420 words]

Note (AI): Pitzer's origin story: delivering death notifications to a family turned a mine manager and him towards zero fatalities and moved him from HR into safety.

Corrie Pitzer, guest [06:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=388):
> I think it was an event that caused that. As the human resource manager, I had to go and give the news of the death on the mine, a fatal accident on the mine, to the family. And, the manager of this mine sent me to go and do it. He didn't wanna do it himself. And, it was quite a difficult situation to handle. You know, I was, I think I was twenty-four, twenty-five years old. I was never trained for A situation like that, and that probably led to the second event, because a few weeks later, there was another fatal accident, and the manager called me in again and said, you have to do this again, and I said to him, I will, but I think you should be there, because the family asked me the previous time, why were you not there to give the news yourself? And I convinced him to go with me. I think that was a life-changing event for both of us, in the sense of we gave the news to the mother, two little girls, six, seven years old. I think it was a experience that, we both suddenly realized there's something much more to life than just, you know, managing a mind, for him and for me. And, I watched how the mother tried to explain to these two little girls, they were twins, tried to explain to them that their father died in the accident, and they couldn't understand it. As they walked out of the room, because the mother said to them to go outside and play, because she didn't know how to handle the situation anymore. And they walked out of this little room, and they wouldn't look at us. They just walked straight past us into the backyard, and as we, me and this manager walked out, he stopped me, and before we got in the car, and he said to me, I'll never do this again. And I thought, you know, he's like just uncomfortable, and I was upset with him at the time, but he said to me, no, we're gonna stop killing people in my mind, because that lady and those two little girls did not deserve today. And that changed him dramatically. He became a very inspirational leader, and, he pulled me out of HR and put me into safety, and I was working for Gencor at the time, and, and that started my career in safety, and just went from there.


### Passage: Zero harm as moral imperative and its downsides [14:47–17:26, 436 words]

Note (AI): Sets out Pitzer's view that zero targets are right in intent but drive suppression of reporting and false numbers, and introduces his 'beyond zero' idea.

Corrie Pitzer, guest [14:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=887):
> Well, if we can go back to that, manager, when he, him and I stood at this gate of this family, and he said, we're going to stop killing people on my mine, he actually said zero fatalities. So that concept, you know, there's no organization, no person cannot want zero fatality or zero harm. It is a moral imperative. You have to go for it. You have to state that and you have to, try to achieve that. And as a concept, it's probably the single most powerful change initiative in safety over decades now was this, yes, be going for zero. It had changed the world of safety, changed the thinking in safety dramatically, and drove down accidents, rates and things like that. So that's the one side of it. You have no other choice. It's a moral imperative. But as organizations started to embed this in your organization, it started driving the wrong behaviors. It started driving a number. And safety became very much the focus of the safety department and where they have their KPIs, and that KPI has got to look good. It has to be directed to zero all the time. As a result of that, you had some very, very negative behaviors that started to evolve in organizations. And those negative behaviors are the suppression of information, the fudging of data, the fudging of accidents, or the arguments, where is this really an accident? That's one side of it. The other side of it is that the workers, having been rewarded for not having accidents, for instance, because that was the next step to attach rewards to it. And obviously what workers were doing is they're going to give you what you want, because they also want the rewards. So there is still today a strong tendency for workers to try and avoid reporting as much as they possibly can, which brings about an improvement in safety numbers, but that's all false. So this is the downside of the zero focus. And unfortunately, it's part of business. I'm not sure we'll ever get it out. We're trying to propagate a concept that we term as beyond zero. What you're talking about is not an engineering concept, but when you talk about beyond zero, we talk about it in the sense of you're thinking into risk exposures, that this is the next level of safety focus in an organization where you don't measure, or if I can put it like this, where the measurement of safety is not necessarily an indication of the level of safety. That's beyond that now.


### Passage: What fake safety is and why it happens [17:26–19:18, 310 words]

Note (AI): Compares the safety industry to the quality movement and defines fake safety as add-on activity disconnected from production processes.

Petro du Pisani, host [17:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1046):
> So you once told me about this concept of fake safety. Can you elaborate on that?

Corrie Pitzer, guest [17:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1052):
> Yeah, fake safety is very much connected to this, whole idea of numbers and, and managing numbers in business. But there's also a lot of activity in the safety field. It's, the field of quality management in the eighties and nineties was a huge business on industry of its own. It had its own gurus, its own Methods and everything, and Deming was the father of that, but it soon became life of its own. And at this point in time, quality management, the quality movement, if I could call it like that, has disappeared. There is no such thing anymore, because its quality is integrated into the production process of organizations. They don't need these quality control systems at the back end of the business anymore. Now, safety is subject to that same kind of movement, cult-like appearance as what the quality movement was. So there's a lot of initiatives and, programs and very much, flavor of the month stuff, and it's much driven by consultants, the people that, you know, I am. And, there's very little work that I think that goes into the heart and soul of the organization, driving safety into the production processes, into the planning processes of the organization, into the operating model of that organization. It's always a add-on, and that's what I call fake safety, because it looks good, it looks busy, makes a lot of noise in the organization, people are happy to see it happen, and they're even connected to safety improvements if that happens, but it's not necessarily connected. That's fake, but it looks good, feels good.

Petro du Pisani, host [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1149):
> Yeah, the definition you gave me is that fake safety is when managers pretend that they're serious about safety, and the employees pretend to believe them.


### Passage: Why linear root-cause models no longer explain accidents [22:56–24:31, 287 words]

Note (AI): Pitzer challenges Swiss cheese and domino thinking, arguing accidents have multiple interacting causes in complex organisations.

Corrie Pitzer, guest [22:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1376):
> Well, that's exactly, one of the deeper concerns I have about our models in safety. Safety is a, is probably one of the most complex processes in organization, but it's very much an engineering approach, a mechanical approach, where if something goes wrong, we're looking for the cause, the holes in the Swiss cheese, and we're looking backwards, looking at all the linear causation of it. And it all makes sense when you add it all up, but an accident is a very complex event, and it has not got only one singular Causation. It has got multiple causation. It is a complex interaction of situations randomly happening as well that created this unique circumstance for a mishap to happen, if I can put it like that. And yet when we analyze it and looking backwards, we can find one single line very easily. Now that gives us the impression that safety is a simple process. All we have to do is find those causes, come to the root cause, and then eliminate the root cause and things will go better. We've done that successfully for many years, but as organizations grow and mature and become far more complex than what they were sixty, seventy years ago, those models don't apply anymore. They simply don't explain accidents anymore. And so to the point where I've made the statement the other, there are no root causes anymore. They are all embedded in the organization, there are many root causes, they're all multiple, and they interact at the same time. And so therefore our analytical tools is not linked to the realities of what we have, the chaotic situation, not complex situation that we have to deal with today.


### Passage: From near misses to searching for far misses [31:24–32:50, 258 words]

Note (AI): Explains why near misses are past information and why organisations should continuously search out changing risk exposures instead.

Corrie Pitzer, guest [31:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1884):
> Yeah, I think the, the concept of a near miss is, to me, is almost the same as an accident. it's a rare event, and it's also too late. It's happened. It just didn't have the final confluence at that time to cause the failure in physical terms. So to me, it's past information as well. I'd like to use a term, and we started using this term very recently, we call, it doesn't make sense like that, and we call that the far miss. It is so far away from happening, but it's a risk exposure, and that tells you a lot more, and it comes back to this thing about where do we spend our time as an organization, searching out, risk exposures in the organization. And when you start doing that, when you actually start searching out these kind of exposures, you realize they are incredibly random, they change all the time. You go into an organization or to a mine site at one point, and you go around, you look for, say, serious risks, you find them. If you go there the next day or three days later, you'll find different ones. And so any one of those could have resulted in a fatal accident. So you gotta be, have a system inside the organization, you have to have the process inside the organization to constantly look forward and constantly look dynamically forward. That's a key thing for me. We shouldn't have standard systems to capture risk with, because risk is not like that.


### Passage: Steps to changing safety culture [39:11–42:04, 538 words]

Note (AI): Pitzer's stepwise change process and the reporting, just, flexible and learning cultures it depends on; useful for anyone planning a culture intervention.

Petro du Pisani, host [39:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2351):
> Now, changing the culture of an organization is normally quite complex, and it's quite difficult, and it takes years. It doesn't, it's not something that can happen quickly. So I'm always interested to know how do we do it? So what steps do you take? So what is step one? What is step two? And how do we know once we've got to that place that we wanted to get to?

Corrie Pitzer, guest [39:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2370):
> Well, that step one is that change the definition of intent in the organization to what it should be. Step two is to create the capability and understanding at the executive levels in the organization, because we find it so readily that organizations have the slogan or whatever they have, And yet there is no real common understanding and acceptance in the top team of the organization, and, they, they all talk about it like parrots, and I'm not saying this in a, in a detrimental way, it's how it happens. But when you start testing the thinking and the, the actual believing in it, it starts to differ. So when you create that belief around it at top level, you have to create that belief right throughout the organization to the front-end employee that they all actually believe the same thing. Sounds simple, but that's how it is. So our change process starts with that. It then involves the, the change of belief, thinking, and actions of the leadership group, right to supervisor level. Once you've done that, you also have to look at your, the systems in your organization, because you can have systems directed away from your, your intent, and, you have to then re-engineer your process in your organization. Once you've got those two in place, You then have behavioral adaptation happening to what that original intent shift was. And culture is then, in the end, culture is that behavioral shift that happens.

Petro du Pisani, host [40:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2455):
> You want to move away, away from a place where people are scared to report stuff and to highlight risk the entire time and hide their numbers and fudge them to a place where people feel completely open about being able to raise risks and look after each other as they generally care about each other.

Corrie Pitzer, guest [41:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2472):
> And, and that's one aspect of that culture is the, and James Reason actually defined it like that, calling it, you know, a reporting culture. But you also must have a just culture, and that just culture refers to the systems. You have to have systems that support that reporting. If people are being blamed for accidents, they're not going to report them. It's a very simple equation. So your disciplinary process, your consequence management must be in tune with that objective to have a reporting culture. But then a series of things have to happen after that. You have to have a flexible culture too. A mistake can be interpreted in so many ways. You have to have that understanding in the organization and adapt to that. And then finally, you must have a learning culture where the organization can learn from these information flows that they get, the people talking about this. That is the final piece in the whole cultural shift.


### Quotes

> "there's no organization, no person cannot want zero fatality or zero harm. It is a moral imperative."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [00:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=16)

> "The quickest way to get you killed on the shuttle is to not follow the standard operating procedure. And so the second quickest way to get you killed is to always follow standard operating procedure."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [01:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=71)

> "we're gonna stop killing people in my mind, because that lady and those two little girls did not deserve today."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [08:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=497)

> "Human beings are the smartest in terms of handling risk. Only humans can deal with risk dynamically, respond to changing risk,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=713)

> "fake safety is when managers pretend that they're serious about safety, and the employees pretend to believe them."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [19:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1152)

> "there are no root causes anymore. They are all embedded in the organization,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1453)

> "we call that the far miss. It is so far away from happening, but it's a risk exposure,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [31:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1911)

> "checklists just create boredom, create human behavior that we actually don't want in the workplace."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [34:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2094)

> "one of the examples that I developed here in South Africa, maybe some 2004, I was consulting for a mining company here in South Africa. I was living in Australia at the time. And, we developed in-team risk identification process, and we called it the MACISA system, coach system."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [36:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2168)

> "we have the energy, dot, dot, dot, we are ready."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [38:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2329)

> "If people are being blamed for accidents, they're not going to report them. It's a very simple equation."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2487)

> "we pulled out of this consulting agreement with them. And three, four months later, they had a disaster. If we were still the consultants to their organization at that time, we would have been toast. And there was no logical decision-maker on our side. It was just a matter of gut feeling."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [43:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2607)

> "So in a way, we're killing the business by telling people, you don't deviate from this standard operating procedure, you just do what you're told,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [47:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2852)

> "pick up the phone, phone a client, and ask to speak to anybody who's been to our training courses, for instance, and ask them."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · [48:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2926)


### Claims

> "Corrie Pitzer worked in the resources industry for ten years as a senior executive for BHP Billiton, then founded Safemap International in 1994."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career path into safety · [01:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=101)

> "He is a member of ASSE's International Chapter and was named ASSE's 2013 Mining Practice Speciality Safety Professional of the Year."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Career path into safety · [02:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=120)

> "I was born and raised on a farm in northern, it used to be Northern Transvaal then, way back in South Africa in 1956, I was born, and grew up on this farm till I was about seven, eight years old,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [02:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=178)

> "I studied industrial psychology. Actually, I have no idea why, why I went that way. It was just an interesting field, and, so I, I studied honors and masters in that field."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=318)

> "so the military played a key role in the aftermath of my career in safety, because the way that the military manage risk It's an absolute example, I guess, it's a real example of how it could be and should be done."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [05:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=349)

> "I, found a job as a human resource manager in a platinum mine in South Africa. It was, Impala Platinum at the time. And that's where I started to develop a focus in safety."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=370)

> "As the human resource manager, I had to go and give the news of the death on the mine, a fatal accident on the mine, to the family. And, the manager of this mine sent me to go and do it. He didn't wanna do it himself."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [06:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=391)

> "he said to me, no, we're gonna stop killing people in my mind, because that lady and those two little girls did not deserve today. And that changed him dramatically. He became a very inspirational leader, and, he pulled me out of HR and put me into safety, and I was working for Gencor at the time,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [08:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=496)

> "I just realized I want to do my own thing, and I want to do it in safety, and that's when I started Safemap. I resigned, so I gave up a significant career in order to start my business with nothing,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Career path into safety · [10:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=622)

> "Human beings are the smartest in terms of handling risk. Only humans can deal with risk dynamically, respond to changing risk, and we're taking that very powerful factor out of the business by trying to cocoon the worker or provide, procedures and let the worker only follow certain procedures, and we're starting to dumb them down."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Human risk competence · [11:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=713)

> "Because it's very limited, it's very superficial, it focuses on human behavior only and doesn't want to understand the cognitions and motivations and attitudes of human beings. That's not what they're interested in, purely on the observable."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Behavioral safety critique · [13:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=787)

> "And that's more based on the concepts of resilient engineering, or term is resilient engineering. And, it probably originated in Sweden by, Professor Erik Hollnagel."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Resilience engineering · [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=822)

> "Now, before behavioral safety, there was a strong focus on safety management systems, audit systems, and that was in the mining industry in South Africa, probably more advanced than anywhere else in the world at the time, seventies and eighties."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: History of safety approaches · [14:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=846)

> "And as a concept, it's probably the single most powerful change initiative in safety over decades now was this, yes, be going for zero. It had changed the world of safety, changed the thinking in safety dramatically, and drove down accidents, rates and things like that."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [15:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=912)

> "And those negative behaviors are the suppression of information, the fudging of data, the fudging of accidents, or the arguments, where is this really an accident?"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [16:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=970)

> "So there is still today a strong tendency for workers to try and avoid reporting as much as they possibly can, which brings about an improvement in safety numbers, but that's all false."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=994)

> "we talk about it in the sense of you're thinking into risk exposures, that this is the next level of safety focus in an organization where you don't measure, or if I can put it like this, where the measurement of safety is not necessarily an indication of the level of safety."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [17:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1027)

> "It's always a add-on, and that's what I call fake safety, because it looks good, it looks busy, makes a lot of noise in the organization, people are happy to see it happen, and they're even connected to safety improvements if that happens, but it's not necessarily connected."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1132)

> "the definition you gave me is that fake safety is when managers pretend that they're serious about safety, and the employees pretend to believe them."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [19:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1149)

> "Resilience is quite a concept, you know, it's almost like a philosophical concept, but it is where the organization develops the capability to respond to risk and to become strengthened to resist and handle risk in, in its operations and become stronger."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Resilience engineering · [20:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1202)

> "Now, that's the kind of concept that I'd like to see coming into safety, that, we not only do withstand the adversities that we have, accidents and so on, but we, as an organization, we strengthen ourself and be able to do the next step."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Resilience engineering · [20:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1241)

> "That has had a result of pedestrians just walking, and the normal response mechanisms of looking, being aware of cars is reduced, and I find that when I come from Canada to here, I suddenly have to switch mode because the cars here won't, won't stop for you."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Human risk competence · [22:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1328)

> "And so to the point where I've made the statement the other, there are no root causes anymore. They are all embedded in the organization, there are many root causes, they're all multiple, and they interact at the same time."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Accident causation models · [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1450)

> "The problem is not so much the analysis of the data, it's the sourcing of the data and how much time you can productively spend on collecting data in any organization that's got tight margins."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Big data in safety · [25:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1510)

> "There's some people who say, you know, you can't really measure a culture, but We're very confident that you actually can, and there's a high level of predictability that you can find in those analysis, and to be able to identify your weak spots,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [25:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1543)

> "people can blindly follow rules, and as we become more and more comfortable with all these engineered systems around us and processes around us, we think less and less about the risks that we are dealing with."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Compliance and procedures · [27:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1631)

> "therefore to have our training processes such that they're much more experiential, challenging, open-ended, so that people can discover what needs to be Done in certain situations themselves, because it's not always the same, of course, it's a highly variable environment."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Human risk competence · [28:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1699)

> "Imagine we could use that same amount of time in an organization. To search out new risks or new ways in which safe fatal accidents can happen. That's far more productive and progressive in thinking, and you will have so much more value from it."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Proactive risk identification · [30:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1823)

> "I'd like to use a term, and we started using this term very recently, we call, it doesn't make sense like that, and we call that the far miss. It is so far away from happening, but it's a risk exposure, and that tells you a lot more,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Proactive risk identification · [31:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1904)

> "So you gotta be, have a system inside the organization, you have to have the process inside the organization to constantly look forward and constantly look dynamically forward. That's a key thing for me. We shouldn't have standard systems to capture risk with, because risk is not like that."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Proactive risk identification · [32:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1954)

> "before the blast goes off, everybody on the operation has got a blast tag. And the blast actually physically can't go off until everybody with the tag has moved out of the blast radius."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Compliance and procedures · [33:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=1999)

> "If you put checklists into all of those little pilots, you're actually sitting with a vast bureaucracy, and people are so much more capable than following checklists."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Compliance and procedures · [34:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2068)

> "because checklists just create boredom, create human behavior that we actually don't want in the workplace. You know, where safety becomes, checked off at the end of the process or at the beginning of the process and not during the process."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Compliance and procedures · [34:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2094)

> "So one team member in a production crew would be getting task of doing, of being an observer of risk that day, and would do that activity. The next day, another team member does it, so they rotate throughout the team."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Proactive risk identification · [36:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2187)

> "one of the things that we profess very strongly in our, approach is the readiness to respond to risk as the right definition, the correct definition of safety, as against the absence of accidents."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Resilience engineering · [38:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2306)

> "And they then add it to their, we have the energy, dot, dot, dot, we are ready. And that changed that organization's focus, approach to safety, and created a huge openness of people right bottom up in the organization to talk about safety, talk about risks in their environment openly."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [38:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2326)

> "Well, that step one is that change the definition of intent in the organization to what it should be. Step two is to create the capability and understanding at the executive levels in the organization,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [39:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2370)

> "Once you've done that, you also have to look at your, the systems in your organization, because you can have systems directed away from your, your intent, and, you have to then re-engineer your process in your organization."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [40:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2430)

> "If people are being blamed for accidents, they're not going to report them. It's a very simple equation. So your disciplinary process, your consequence management must be in tune with that objective to have a reporting culture."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [41:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2487)

> "A lot of our success came from people talking about us to the next person. We hardly do any advertising."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Consulting business · [42:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2559)

> "we became very concerned about the quality of a specific manager in that company and the effect that this manager had on that organization. And, we pulled out of this consulting agreement with them. And three, four months later, they had a disaster."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Consulting business · [43:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2596)

> "we found evidence of people who injured themselves quite seriously, but they wouldn't report because it upsets the, the target zero. And that organization really took on board, and they shifted their whole focus,"
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Zero harm and fake safety · [44:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2680)

> "and that organization's a huge organization, like thirty thousand people. That's the most dramatic shift I've seen in any organization ever, such a large organization in such a short space of time."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [44:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2696)

> "one of the biggest shifts in my thinking came from reading the work of Bjorn Lomborg, and his book is called The Skeptical Environmentalist."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Recommended reading · [46:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2762)

> "If an organization wants to survive into the future and be productive and effective in the future, the one thing we must be able to embrace is change and innovation. Both of those things are the enemies of safety management and the enemies of the safety profession."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety and innovation · [46:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2815)

> "If we trust them, if we authorize them, and if we don't blame them for error, that makes a difference."
> — Corrie Pitzer, guest · topic: Safety culture change · [48:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991989_high.mp3#t=2891)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Corrie Pitzer, from Safemap International, about resilience engineering in safety. Connect with Corrie on LinkedIn � Safe Map � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #007 Dr. Clifford Saunders | Reprogramming your brain

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/007-reprogramming-your-brain/
- Date: 2018-09-21 (as at 2018-09-21)
- Guest: Clifford Saunders
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Neuroplasticity, Talking to your brain, Sleep and problem solving, Simulations and emulations, Applied neuroscience in business, Artificial intelligence and feelings, Guest career background
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991990
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3

### About the guest: Clifford Saunders

- managing director · Center for Applied Neuroscience · Australia
- Took an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering, a master's in applied psych and a PhD in cybernetics; worked at British Aircraft Corporation and Bell Northern Research, then branched out on his own in 1991, working in cost reduction and steel.

In their own words:

> "But I found out that I was pretty damn good at engineering. I got a first. And the company that I was working with, British Aircraft Corporation, for those of us that got firsts in, in our year, they offered us a master's in, say, applied psych." [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=371)

> "So my master's is in applied psych, and the interesting thing here is when I'd finished my undergraduate, I now knew how information flows within healthy and unhealthy circuits." [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=399)

> "So part of my education was working for British Aircraft Corporation, in the guided weapons division, so I worked in, all sorts of GW tasks." [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1301)

> "the apprenticeship that I took was a five-year apprenticeship, and it meant when I wasn't at university, I was back in the factory in Stevenage." [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1525)

> "So when I moved from England to Canada, I started working for the telecommunications industry. Bell Canada and Northern Telecom had an R&D group called Bell Northern Research," [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1577)

> "I left Bell Northern Research in 1991, and I began to branch out on my own. So I've worked in, in cost reduction, where you've got large complex products, and you need to get better margin out of them." [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633)

> "those of you that are interested that would like my Society of Economic Geology paper on the use of neuroplasticity in mining from 2011, happy to send it to you." [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Dr Clifford Saunders, who calls himself the Brain Reprogramming Doctor, about neuroplasticity. Saunders traces his path from electrical engineering through applied psychology to cybernetics. He describes how his eczema cleared, which he credits to yoga and dehypnosis. He guides the host through a ritual for asking the brain questions to work on during sleep and explains how simulations differ from emulations. He shares business cases from optical switching and the steelmaker Dofasco, argues that humans outfeel AI, and cites a mining experiment that found two years of business experience within two days.

**Key ideas**

- Saunders argues the brain is plastic at every scale, from a single person to a 50,000-employee company, and that belief systems are the biggest bottleneck. ([02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=148) [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=152) [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=170) [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=205))
- Saunders uses his own recovery from severe eczema as evidence that anyone can reprogram their responses. ([05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=318) [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=490) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=542) [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=551))
- Saunders says you can pose a question to your brain through a grounding, breathing and eye-rolling ritual, and let it work on the question overnight. ([10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640) [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806))
- Saunders distinguishes single-user simulations from multi-user 'cartoon sketch' emulations, which speed up time so teams see cause and effect and change their beliefs. ([21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1293) [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1348) [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1389) [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1487))
- Saunders argues that firms competing only on price, delivery and quality fall into competitive convergence; Dofasco broke out by finding a fourth buyer criterion. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793))
- Saunders claims robots can outthink humans but humans outfeel them, so AI should be treated as a tool and a friend. ([30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1812) [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1863) [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1888) [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1895))
- Saunders reports that a mining experiment measured a neuroplastic effect equal to two years of business experience in two days. ([32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1939) [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951) [33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983) [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1993))

**Talking to your brain** ([10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640) [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2060))

1. Let it come to your mind that talking to your brain is even possible.
2. Ground yourself by becoming aware of your feet.
3. Calm yourself with three very long, deep breaths, paying attention to the exhale reflex.
4. Close your eyes, roll them up until you feel eye strain, relax them and keep them closed.
5. Glance at notes, a sketch, a model or a doodle representing the question for your brain.
6. Do this at night so your brain can work on the question while you sleep.

**Lessons**

- Saunders suggests treating the 'it won't work for me' voice as just another pattern rather than a fact. ([14:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=855) [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=857))
- Saunders advises not taking sleep for granted; he uses each sleep cycle to have his brain prepare material. ([33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2039) [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2046) [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2060))
- Saunders cautions against getting stuck in one methodology and says to rule nothing out, because we simply don't know. ([16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1013))
- Saunders argues that looking beyond price, delivery and quality for an invisible buyer criterion can create a point of difference. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793))
- Saunders reports that when teams are pushed to squeeze their thinking, they find savings themselves. ([27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1664) [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1809))

**Who it's for:** Listeners curious about neuroplasticity and self-change, and people who want a simple practice for problem-solving during sleep. Also executives and change managers interested in using team learning environments and emulations to shift belief systems.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Saunders says he was born with atopic eczema covering sixty-five percent of his body. ([05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=318))
- Saunders says it takes about 250 milliseconds to become aware of the meaning of what is said. ([10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=659))
- Saunders left Bell Northern Research in 1991 to work independently. ([27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633))
- Saunders says Dofasco had downsized from fifteen thousand to seventy-five hundred people in the early nineties. ([28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1708))
- Saunders wrote a Society of Economic Geology paper on neuroplasticity in mining in 2011. ([32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951))
- Saunders reports a measured effect of two years' business experience within two days. ([33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983))
- Saunders says yogis have known about the plasticity of the brain for 5,000 years. ([10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=629))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: Can adults really change or rewire their brains?**
A: Saunders says yes. He argues the old idea of a brain fixed from birth held change back. He uses his own recovery from eczema as proof and says the brain can rewire itself by the equivalent of two years of business experience in two days. ([02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=170) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=542) [33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983))

**Q: How do I get my brain to solve a problem while I sleep?**
A: Saunders says to accept that it is possible, ground yourself through your feet and take three long breaths. Then close your eyes, roll them up until they strain and relax them. Glance at notes or a sketch of the question, ideally at night. ([10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640) [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693) [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716) [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773) [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806))

**Q: What is the difference between a simulation and an emulation?**
A: Saunders says simulations are usually single-user environments for training a specific task. Emulations are rougher 'cartoon sketches' of, say, a business that many people use at once, with time sped up so they see cause and effect and change their belief systems. ([22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1348) [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1389) [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1487))

**Q: Will AI end up making all our decisions for us?**
A: Saunders argues that robots can decide, hear and see, but humans turn data into feelings, which gives them a lasting point of difference. He calls AI a tool and a friend with no intention or life cycle. ([31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1863) [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1888) [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1895))

**Q: What books on neuroplasticity does Clifford Saunders recommend?**
A: He recommends starting with The Woman Who Changed the Brain by Barbara Arrowsmith Young. He says she grew brain substrate through neurological deficits she was born with. He also mentions The Brain's Way of Healing. ([16:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=961) [16:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=977))

**Q: How did Dofasco use new thinking to get out of a commodity trap?**
A: Saunders says its executives realised that every competitor sold on price, delivery and quality. They looked for a fourth buyer criterion and placed top metallurgists and engineers inside car makers' design teams, so they knew in advance what chemistries would be needed. ([27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679) [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1708) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750) [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793))

**Q: What is Clifford Saunders' professional background?**
A: He took an undergraduate degree in electrical engineering and a master's in applied psych through British Aircraft Corporation, and did a five-year apprenticeship in Stevenage. He then worked at Bell Northern Research in Canada before going out on his own in 1991. ([06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=371) [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=399) [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1525) [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1577) [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633))


### Passage: From eczema and engineering to brain reprogramming [05:46–08:40, 527 words]

Note (AI): The guest's own account of his degrees, his work with EEG, yoga and dehypnosis, and how he says his eczema cleared; the basis of his credibility.

Clifford Saunders, guest [05:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=346):
> And at the age of nineteen, a friend of mine suggested that I start yoga, Raja yoga, to see if I could do something at least to clean, at least to relax more, because it was just horrendous. You don't even realize you're running a chronic panic attack. I had to do something, so I took my undergraduate in electrical engineering. And electrical engineering is a far cry from theater, as you can guess, and I railed at this whole thing. But I found out that I was pretty damn good at engineering. I got a first. And the company that I was working with, British Aircraft Corporation, for those of us that got firsts in, in our year, they offered us a master's in, say, applied psych. I took a master's in applied psych. Because they were interested in the human-machine interface. How can we streamline the interface between a human with intentions and the machine to carry it out? So my master's is in applied psych, and the interesting thing here is when I'd finished my undergraduate, I now knew how information flows within healthy and unhealthy circuits. I'd worked with them, I'd debugged them, I'd tuned them. And now I've got the chance to actually work with whole humans, and we had to stick the EEG electrodes on, on patients' heads, if you like, for the epilepsy clinic. And so now I got the chance to see information actually flowing within healthy and unhealthy brains. And now I'm putting two and two together because now I'm saying, maybe I wonder if something like that's happening with me, where I've got some circuit that's not working properly. My PhD is in cybernetics. I've always been interested in different cultures. That's, you know, I lived in Singapore as a kid. I had a fantastic time when I came out to South Africa. I love the world. I love to live all over. Over the world. I think the world is amazing. It's just the most amazing. What a bit of luck. You know, the next nearest planet is 250 million light years away, and there's no bus for some time. So I just think this is an amazing planet. Along the way, as I was studying yoga, I was introduced to a fellow in the West Coast of the States who talked about dehypnosis. And when I say to him, what do you mean by dehypnosis? He would say, well, Clifford, you've done a wonderful job of hypnotizing yourself into believing what it is you believe you believe. You don't need more hypnosis, Clifford. You need to interrupt those hypnotic patterns. You need to dehypnotize yourself. Well, by the time I finished all of that, 25 years ago, I realized that my skin had got better, and I no longer had it. And so what I've assembled over the years are many, many, many different techniques. Nowadays, we have them under the rubric of neuroplasticity, but they're techniques that allow our brain Which, by the way, listening to what I'm saying, the consequences that our brains are capable of reprogramming themselves, reprogramming themselves while we sleep.


### Passage: The technique for talking to your brain [10:40–13:36, 531 words]

Note (AI): A step-by-step, guided walk-through of the ritual the guest uses to pose questions to his brain, which listeners can try themselves.

Clifford Saunders, guest [10:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=640):
> And so what we do is we just realize for a minute that in order for you to be able to understand what it is that I'm saying, it is your brain that is decoding the words, deriving the meaning, and then presenting them to you consciously. That's a trick, and it takes about 250 milliseconds from the moment, the instant of now, for you to become aware of the implications of what it is I'm saying. We don't normally see the 250 milliseconds that it's there. So what we want to do is we want to be respectful of this fact. It's not an it. It's three pound of liver, as I like to call it. I do that just to see if it'll twist me on, right? But very respectfully, this is my brain. This is me. This is creating me. It's amazing, and it turns out to be very simple to be able to set up that communication pattern. The first thing is, is let it come to your mind that this is even possible. And that's, if you think about it, a gift that your brain will give you or not. If it occurs to you, you know, I think I'd like to talk to my brain, you're already on that bit of the path. The next thing you want to do is, is I like to anchor myself. If you're lying on bed, you can't do it with your feet, but if you're sitting on a chair, or as I'm doing at the minute, standing, become aware of your feet and ground yourself. Grounding is important. So once you've grounded yourself, you now need to calm yourself. The quickest way of calming yourself that I know are three very long, deep breaths where you pay attention to the exhale reflex. Okay? So let's do it together. Let's do it together.

Petro du Pisani, host [12:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=735):
> Okay.

Clifford Saunders, guest [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=736):
> So just settle yourself down. That's it. Beautiful. And now we're just going to take three deep breaths. You know this routine. Let's do it. First deep breath. Nice deep breath. Excellent, Pet. Very good. And if you haven't already closed your eyes, please close them. And with your eyelids closed, just roll your eyes up to the top of your head till you feel a bit of eye strain, and relax your eyes, and keep your eyes closed. Now that's quite a ritual. I think I'd like to talk to my brain. Ground myself. Three deep breaths. Close my eyes, roll my eyes up to the top of my head till I feel a bit of eye strain, relax my eyes, and keep my eyes closed. It can only mean one thing, and that is, you'd like to have a chat with your brain. So sometimes it's handy just to be there with yourself for a few minutes. In this case, it's not appropriate. That if you wanted to be talking to your brain at this moment, you would glance at some notes you'd made, perhaps a sketch or a little model or a doodle, whatever it is your brain knows because it's created the question for you to ask it to ask itself.


### Passage: Simulations versus emulations as learning environments [21:33–24:56, 586 words]

Note (AI): Explains how multi-user 'cartoon sketch' emulations speed up time so teams see cause and effect, and why that shifts belief systems.

Clifford Saunders, guest [21:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1293):
> So just to paint the picture for the audience, because you're kind of a few steps ahead, let's start off with the idea of a simulation. So part of my education was working for British Aircraft Corporation, in the guided weapons division, so I worked in, all sorts of GW tasks. One of the things that we, British Aircraft Corporation with the Ministry of Defense, very interested in, in is shortening the time to train someone to do something. Especially something on a very expensive piece of equipment. You don't want people to go out and learn by doing on a great big tank, right? That's very inefficient. It breaks the tank. What you need to do in that environment then is to create a simulation. And what you want to be doing is you want to be how well we're going to learn that task. Generally speaking, you want it, realistic up to a point beyond which you don't need to make it more realistic. Simulations tend to be single user environments, or they tend to be played through as, you know, in terms of, say, mind change, you run a simulation, you will run a series and you'll see how an instance plays out. So that's a simulation. Now, an emulation is different in some respects. You asked me a bit earlier who my favorite cartoon character is, and out popped Popeye, my surprise. So we're able to recognize that Popeye is a character, even though we're never confused for a minute. To think it's a real person. Nevertheless, we can learn a lot from, from Popeye and Bluto and Olive Oil, can't we? Cartoon sketch. So I want you to think for a minute that an emulation is a cartoon sketch of, let's say, a business, but a cartoon sketch designed in such a way that many people can interact with that sketch at the same time, and that if we play some tricks and we scale it right, we can actually speed time up so that our brains get to see the cause-effect nature of the decisions that they're making almost in real time, sufficiently close for our brain to be able to make the connection to, if I cut down the amount of money I spend in maintenance, My next quarter looks great, and then I go out of business in the back end of the year. Now, as you, all of your friends, now to play with, say, an emulation of, let's say, and emulations can be of all sizes. It depends on what the non-negotiable business goal is, like where are we taking this? And that might take a little bit of time. It might be iterative, but assuming you know what your, you know, steady profitability, regardless of gold price between these two parameters, now you get your team to be able to play with this cartoon emulation sketch in real time and get more or less immediate feedback. Which then has the power, it begins now immediately to affect the premotor cortex, the prefrontal, that part of our brains that contains our belief systems of what we must do to get things done. And so I hope that's not too wordy for you. They're both in the same category of learning environment, a simulation and an emulation. They're both training environments. One's generally one-on-one for a single type of task, and emulation is a broader, rougher sketch that has a massive effect on the, on belief systems.


### Passage: Dofasco escapes the commodity trap [27:59–30:12, 423 words]

Note (AI): A client case study: a downsized steelmaker finds a fourth buyer criterion beyond price, delivery and quality and turns it into a point of difference.

Clifford Saunders, guest [27:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1679):
> From there, I moved into steel, and there's a company now that's been bought by the, by the French, and now the French by the, by the Indians called Dofasco. And Dofasco In its day was the most profitable and innovative, steel manufacturing companies in North America, if not the world. So they saw the things that I was doing and said, would I come and help them think about their next generation? What would, what needs to happen next? And at that time, this is in the early nineties, they'd gone through a very large downsizing, and they'd gone from fifteen thousand to seventy-five hundred people, and their morale was in the, in the gutter. It was terrible. And I was brought in as part of the team. They did a tremendous amount of wonderful team building work and so on, and essentially my job was to work with the executive team and get them to think, okay, Where is the steel industry going to next? They hadn't realized that they'd fall into a commodity trap because when they asked them, why do people buy steel from you? They said, well, it's price delivery and quality. So why do they drive, buy steel from your competitor over the road? That's price delivery and quality. What about US steel? It's price delivery and quality. So if all of you are competing on price delivery and quality, you're bound to be driving yourselves out of business due to competitive convergence. What is the fourth invisible buyer criteria that isn't on the table and no one thinks about at the minute except for this PDQ? It's not going to be as important as PDQ, but it'll become a point of difference. And out of that Discovery, they then discovered what I call the door in the wall. They discovered that the way that they had been looking at the problem looked as if you couldn't get through it, but as soon as you added this invisible component, well, what's the fourth buyer criteria? Suddenly it's like, well, wait a minute, there's lots of things we can do for the fourth buyer criteria. And what they did, just to finish the story in its famous case study, they deployed into Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, and all the other car manufacturers at their own expense, the top-end metallurgists and engineers in the design team so that they knew in advance what chemistries they would need and already have the process working. You get that by squeezing your thinking.


### Passage: Why humans outfeel artificial intelligence [30:12–32:03, 342 words]

Note (AI): The guest's argument, lobe by lobe, that feeling is the human point of difference and that AI should be treated as a tool.

Petro du Pisani, host [30:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1812):
> With the rise of artificial intelligence and all of those things that are happening in our world at the moment, do you think we're going to get to a point where machines are going to make all our decisions for us, or are we still going to be using our brains?

Clifford Saunders, guest [30:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1825):
> Oh, that's such a super question. Let's just talk a little bit about number and Number theory. When we say the machine is thinking, it is following a series of algorithms that it has learnt. So now I'm picking up a brain cap. The front part of the brain, the frontal lobe, is where we make decisions. A robot can make decisions. The side portion of our brain contains our temporal lobes, where our hearing happens. That's very funny. Stop it, Frank. And a robot can hear. And we're able to see. We have an occipital lobe and see things, and a robot can see things too. But there's one huge difference between a human and a robot, and that is the parietal lobe. We are capable of taking the bit stream, the data, because we are alive, through some sort of magic we don't understand, and turn it into feelings. If we didn't feel our feelings, then we would be robots, and we would need to be frightened of the damn things taking over, because we'd have no point of difference. Robots can outthink us, decide us, hear us, and see us, but we outfeel them always, infinitely. And so from my perspective, they're tools, they're friends, get on the same side of them. They have no intention, they don't have a life cycle. If you said it that in such a way that they now start to make your life miserable, pay attention to that. I mean, I will absolutely guarantee artificial intelligence will squeeze us whether we like it or not to the next stage of our, quote, evolution or involution, no doubt about it. But we're up for the challenge, and we are alive, and we feel.


### Passage: Two years of experience in two days, and sleep [32:19–34:32, 395 words]

Note (AI): The guest cites a mining experiment measuring the size of the neuroplastic effect and describes how he used sleep cycles to prepare.

Clifford Saunders, guest [32:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1939):
> A little bit earlier, I took Petro, and I hope you tailgated, on this idea of talking to your brain. Now, this is not a theoretical thing. Let's ask ourselves, and those of you that are interested that would like my Society of Economic Geology paper on the use of neuroplasticity in mining from 2011, happy to send it to you. But during that experiment, the experiment The neuroscientists that were part of the team, business neuroscientists in the States, we were able to set up a rough and ready experiment to quantify the size of the neuroplastic effect. Roughly speaking. And so what we discovered was we were able to set up some metrics, and this is where you need to be sitting down. Your brain has the capacity to reprogram itself, reconceptualize itself, reappraise itself, rewire itself, the equivalent of two years' worth of unique business experience within two days. That's the size of the effect. The fact that we don't utilize it hardly at all is irrelevant. The fact is our brains are very, very fluid. From this point forward, we can be assured that if we're not getting what we want, it's not to do with the inherent capacity of our brains to be able to change themselves. It has to be something like, I don't know, our imagination or some other boundary condition you don't know about, but that's not going to be the asymptote. So I live this stuff every day. I know this stuff works. So when you ask me, how many sleep cycles ago did you ask me to do this, Petro, roughly?

Petro du Pisani, host [33:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2035):
> Probably about a week ago.

Clifford Saunders, guest [33:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2037):
> Okay, so seven sleep cycles to go. So the first thing I want the audience to realize is, I don't want you to take sleep for granted anymore. It is a hugely important thing. The English say fortnight for a reason. Once upon a time, we counted nights, not days. In the olden days, there were groups of people that realized the magic was happening at night. So the sleep cycle now becomes important. Then when Petro asked me, I then had, let's say, seven sleep cycles between then and now to ask my brain to dig through, find stuff, and make it just as kick-ass and interesting as I could possibly do every night. That's what I do.


### Quotes

> "address the largest of all bottlenecks, which is between their ears,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [02:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=152)

> "this whole three pounder liver that they're wearing that is creating our experience of us this very minute, is those principles of neuroplasticity apply across all scales of human endeavor"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [03:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=198)

> "I'm a big believer in having fun, all right? I mean, we're dead for a long time, and so the way that I look at this whole reincarnation, if the Hindus have it, or an incarnation, if the Christians do, you don't want to waste it."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=292)

> "the next nearest planet is 250 million light years away, and there's no bus for some time."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [07:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=453)

> "You don't need more hypnosis, Clifford. You need to interrupt those hypnotic patterns. You need to dehypnotize yourself."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [08:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=481)

> "if I can do it, anyone can do it,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [09:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=551)

> "It's three pound of liver, as I like to call it."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [11:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=676)

> "a little voice that goes, yeah, but it won't work for me. That's just another pattern."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [14:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=857)

> "Anti-fragile by Nicholas Taleb."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1213)

> "You get that by squeezing your thinking."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [30:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1809)

> "Robots can outthink us, decide us, hear us, and see us, but we outfeel them always, infinitely."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [31:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1888)

> "the equivalent of two years' worth of unique business experience within two days. That's the size of the effect."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [33:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1993)

> "The English say fortnight for a reason. Once upon a time, we counted nights, not days."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2046)

> "Okay. Well, the first thing is that they can call me. They can call me at on plus one six five one four four seven six four four seven. They can also Skype me. At Clifford Stewart Saunders. They can also email me at cliff at brainreprogramming.com, and if they want to type it all out, they can, they can contact me at clifford dot saunders at the brainreprogrammingdoctor.com."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · [34:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2083)


### Claims

> "the mining industry will make large moves forward when they address the largest of all bottlenecks, which is between their ears, the belief systems that they have about how work needs to get done."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [02:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=148)

> "the idea that the brain is very plastic, and what has in the past been extremely difficult to achieve, in part has been due to the notion that the brain is rigid and fixed from the age of, of birth,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [02:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=170)

> "those principles of neuroplasticity apply across all scales of human endeavor, both from the very large fifty thousand individual employees in the large multinational company, right down to you and I, individual,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [03:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=205)

> "we're here in Canada to record a series of introductory courses to neuroplasticity, to codify it."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [03:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=235)

> "I was born with a horrendous case of atop dermatitis eczema, sixty-five percent covered from day one."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [05:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=318)

> "But I found out that I was pretty damn good at engineering. I got a first. And the company that I was working with, British Aircraft Corporation, for those of us that got firsts in, in our year, they offered us a master's in, say, applied psych."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [06:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=371)

> "So my master's is in applied psych, and the interesting thing here is when I'd finished my undergraduate, I now knew how information flows within healthy and unhealthy circuits."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [06:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=399)

> "well, Clifford, you've done a wonderful job of hypnotizing yourself into believing what it is you believe you believe. You don't need more hypnosis, Clifford. You need to interrupt those hypnotic patterns."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [07:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=473)

> "Well, by the time I finished all of that, 25 years ago, I realized that my skin had got better, and I no longer had it."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [08:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=490)

> "So if I have been able to put into effect neuroplastic ideas that now have changed my responses, if I can do it, anyone can do it, first."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=542)

> "There's this wonderful story of the scientist who discovered the Helix benzene ring. He dreamt of a snake eating his tail, and this led to the discovery of the benzene ring."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Sleep and problem solving · [09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=569)

> "That they have, they've known about the plasticity of the brain for 5,000 years. This yoga works because of it."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [10:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=629)

> "it takes about 250 milliseconds from the moment, the instant of now, for you to become aware of the implications of what it is I'm saying."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [10:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=659)

> "The first thing is, is let it come to your mind that this is even possible."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [11:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=693)

> "become aware of your feet and ground yourself. Grounding is important. So once you've grounded yourself, you now need to calm yourself. The quickest way of calming yourself that I know are three very long, deep breaths where you pay attention to the exhale reflex."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [11:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=716)

> "Ground myself. Three deep breaths. Close my eyes, roll my eyes up to the top of my head till I feel a bit of eye strain, relax my eyes, and keep my eyes closed."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [12:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=773)

> "you would glance at some notes you'd made, perhaps a sketch or a little model or a doodle, whatever it is your brain knows because it's created the question for you to ask it to ask itself."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Talking to your brain · [13:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=806)

> "The thing that usually gets in our way is a little voice that goes, yeah, but it won't work for me. That's just another pattern."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [14:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=855)

> "So it makes sense to me, it's just logical, that you need to be a pretty good engineer. You need to be a pretty good psychologist. You need to understand systems and how they, they are working, what they're striving for."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [15:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=902)

> "The first book I'd like your audience to get is The Woman Who Changed the Brain by Barbara Arrowsmith Young."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [16:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=961)

> "She proved for herself that if she drove traffic through neurological deficits she was born with, she could grow substrate which had never been there before."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [16:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=977)

> "you do not want to get stuck into a methodology. This is how we think about it. Take the pill and see me in four days. We want to be able to say we can rule nothing out, even what we might think of as really weird science, because we simply don't know."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1013)

> "So part of my education was working for British Aircraft Corporation, in the guided weapons division, so I worked in, all sorts of GW tasks."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [21:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1301)

> "Simulations tend to be single user environments, or they tend to be played through as, you know, in terms of, say, mind change, you run a simulation, you will run a series and you'll see how an instance plays out."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Simulations and emulations · [22:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1348)

> "So I want you to think for a minute that an emulation is a cartoon sketch of, let's say, a business, but a cartoon sketch designed in such a way that many people can interact with that sketch at the same time,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Simulations and emulations · [23:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1389)

> "One's generally one-on-one for a single type of task, and emulation is a broader, rougher sketch that has a massive effect on the, on belief systems."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Simulations and emulations · [24:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1487)

> "the apprenticeship that I took was a five-year apprenticeship, and it meant when I wasn't at university, I was back in the factory in Stevenage."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [25:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1525)

> "So when I moved from England to Canada, I started working for the telecommunications industry. Bell Canada and Northern Telecom had an R&D group called Bell Northern Research,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [26:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1577)

> "One of them is called interpretive structural modeling, which is a way of taking very complex problems, breaking them into manageable chunks that a human short-term memory can take care of,"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [26:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1610)

> "I left Bell Northern Research in 1991, and I began to branch out on my own. So I've worked in, in cost reduction, where you've got large complex products, and you need to get better margin out of them."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Guest career background · [27:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1633)

> "So I worked on optical switching lines back in the early nineties, and were able to, I wouldn't get, you know, hundreds of millions of bucks out of the, out of the cost by getting them to think that they, they found the savings."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [27:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1664)

> "at that time, this is in the early nineties, they'd gone through a very large downsizing, and they'd gone from fifteen thousand to seventy-five hundred people, and their morale was in the, in the gutter."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [28:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1708)

> "So if all of you are competing on price delivery and quality, you're bound to be driving yourselves out of business due to competitive convergence."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1750)

> "they deployed into Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, and all the other car manufacturers at their own expense, the top-end metallurgists and engineers in the design team so that they knew in advance what chemistries they would need"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [29:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1793)

> "But there's one huge difference between a human and a robot, and that is the parietal lobe. We are capable of taking the bit stream, the data, because we are alive, through some sort of magic we don't understand, and turn it into feelings."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Artificial intelligence and feelings · [31:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1863)

> "And so from my perspective, they're tools, they're friends, get on the same side of them. They have no intention, they don't have a life cycle."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Artificial intelligence and feelings · [31:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1895)

> "those of you that are interested that would like my Society of Economic Geology paper on the use of neuroplasticity in mining from 2011, happy to send it to you."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Applied neuroscience in business · [32:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1951)

> "Your brain has the capacity to reprogram itself, reconceptualize itself, reappraise itself, rewire itself, the equivalent of two years' worth of unique business experience within two days."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [33:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=1983)

> "So the first thing I want the audience to realize is, I don't want you to take sleep for granted anymore. It is a hugely important thing."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Sleep and problem solving · [33:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2039)

> "I then had, let's say, seven sleep cycles between then and now to ask my brain to dig through, find stuff, and make it just as kick-ass and interesting as I could possibly do every night."
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Sleep and problem solving · [34:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2060)

> "Brain science is going through its uber moment, and so we are going to see vast changes in consciousness"
> — Clifford Saunders, guest · topic: Neuroplasticity · [35:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991990_high.mp3#t=2139)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Dr. Clifford Saunders (The Brain Reprogramming Doctor) about reprogramming your brain. Connect with Clifford on LinkedIn · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #006 Harry Sinko and Gary Lane | Disruption in the mining industry

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/006-disruption-in-the-mining-industry/
- Date: 2018-07-16 (as at 2018-07-16)
- Guest: Gary Lane, Harry Sinko
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Disruption in mining, People and behaviour change, Mining simulation and experiential learning, Digital twins and Mining 4.0, Collaboration and stakeholders, Change management leadership
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991991
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3

### About the guest: Harry Sinko

- directors · Vuuma Collaborations · Mandela Mining Precinct in Emerentia
- Introduced as having an international reputation as a creative, motivational, and results-driven change agent who has worked across corporate boundaries, delivering results in a variety of industries and cultures; a coach and master facilitator.

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### About the guest: Gary Lane

- directors · Vuuma Collaborations · Mandela Mining Precinct in Emerentia
- Has built up a global reputation in the mining industry over the past 26 years; chairman of the mining part of the technical program committee of the South African Institute of Mining and Metallurgy.

In their own words:

> "I'm the chairman of the mining part of the technical program committee at the moment, and we've rejigged the whole way we do our technical program in terms of our conferences." [25:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1539)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Gary Lane and Harry Sinko of Vuuma Collaborations about disrupting the mining industry. Gary argues that low returns have exposed broken practices and that the people side of Mining 4.0 is harder than the technology. Harry focuses on behaviour change, experiential learning and leadership belief. Together they describe their physical mining simulation, Simine, and their definition of a digital twin. They also cover what disruption means for mine workers, stakeholder value sharing, regulatory certainty and collaboration across industries.

**Key ideas**

- Gary argues that the mining industry is broken in its practices and must change its operating models, business models, technology and people management. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=153) [03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=218))
- Gary says the people challenges are the hardest part of the future mine; technology implementation is the easy part. ([18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1132))
- Both guests contend that modernisation shifts jobs toward skilled and digital work rather than simply eliminating them. ([05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=317) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=340) [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=370) [06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=419))
- Harry attributes resistance to change to entrenched behaviour patterns; Gary attributes it to fear and insecurity. ([07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=449) [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=451) [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=592))
- The guests use a physical simulation of the full mining value stream so teams can fail safely and learn systems thinking. ([08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=509) [11:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=666) [11:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=669) [12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=769))
- Gary warns that vendors are rebranding solutions as 4.0 and argues that systems thinking must come first to prioritise investment. ([19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1159) [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1166) [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1187))
- Harry holds that change management starts at the top and depends on leaders' genuine belief. ([23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1432) [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1451) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1495))
- Both guests call for collaboration, learning from other industries and sharing value among all stakeholders. ([21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1273) [21:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1315) [22:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1379))

**Harry's three steps to breaking habits** ([07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=449) [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=542))

1. Build acknowledgement and a want to break the habit because the new way is better.
2. Work with people to introduce the new techniques or approaches to create a new outcome.
3. Support them until they become very skilled in the depth of doing it.

**Lessons**

- Gary suggests addressing the fear and insecurity behind resistance before introducing new technology. ([09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=592))
- Harry recommends letting people fail in a safe, offline environment so they build confidence before applying new skills at work. ([04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=270) [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=509))
- According to Gary, without understanding the whole mining system, spending gets spread across initiatives with unclear value. ([19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1187))
- The simulation results Harry describes suggest that improving activities within silos raises output but not profitability. ([12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=769) [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=793))
- Harry argues that change communication only works when senior leaders truly believe in it, rather than acting under external pressure. ([24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1451) [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1495))

**Who it's for:** Mining executives, managers and change practitioners weighing digitisation and Mining 4.0, and anyone interested in how simulation-based experiential learning and systems thinking support people change in heavy industry.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Harry says mining's productivity is nearly five times lower than the automotive industry's. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=184))
- Harry says the simulation has been played close on a hundred times, and no group has reached break-even profit in the first round. ([12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=769))
- Gary says the South African Institute of Mining and Metallurgy has over 5,000 members. ([25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1526))
- Gary chairs the mining part of the institute's technical program committee. ([25:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1539))
- The guests plan to launch Open Source Mine, which Gary describes as the TED Talks of mining. ([28:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1694) [28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1697))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What does disruption mean in the mining industry?**
A: Gary says it means doing things differently, not for its own sake, by bringing new thinking from other industries into mine planning, operating models and business models. ([02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=153) [03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=218))

**Q: Will automating mines cost mine workers their jobs?**
A: Gary says some unskilled jobs may go, but upskilling and newly economic ore bodies will create demand for skilled workers. Harry adds that productivity creates wealth, consumption and wider labour demand. ([05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=317) [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=340) [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=370))

**Q: Why do people resist change at work?**
A: Harry points to solid behaviour patterns built over years; Gary points to fear and insecurity, such as fear of job loss or of being unable to use new technology. ([07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=451) [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=592))

**Q: What is the Simine mining simulation?**
A: Gary describes it as a physical simulation of the full mining value stream, from drilling to logistics, with operator, middle management and general management layers. Harry says it is aimed mainly at managers. ([11:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=666) [11:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=669) [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=821))

**Q: What is a digital twin in mining?**
A: Gary defines it as a virtual replica of the full mining value chain, including its equipment, resources, operating model and geospatial layout, used to simulate decisions. Harry adds that it includes the levels of work in the system. ([15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=942) [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=954))

**Q: Where should a mining company start with Mining 4.0?**
A: Gary says to start with systems thinking so you can prioritise, rather than buying the many vendor solutions now being punted. ([19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1159) [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1187))

**Q: What would make mining digitisation easier in South Africa?**
A: Gary says investors need regulatory certainty, especially around mining charter three. Harry calls for collaboration and for porting solutions from other industries. ([20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1213) [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1273))

**Q: How do you get buy-in for major change in mining?**
A: Harry says to start with senior management, then involve government in education and involve communities at every step. He adds that leaders need nearly blind belief in the change. ([17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1026) [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1029) [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1451))


### Passage: Jobs, productivity and skills in a modernised mining industry [05:17–07:13, 340 words]

Note (AI): Both guests answer the jobs question: Gary on upskilling and newly economic ore bodies, Harry on productivity, wealth and a global skilled-labour shortage.

Gary Lane, guest [05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=317):
> The first point to make is that the South African mining industry is no unique, not unique to any of the other mining companies globally. We're sitting with productivity issues globally. South Africa isn't actually lagging. What does it actually mean for the future? Well, if we don't modernize our mines globally, we can't open up and access all That are actually non-economic, like using current mining methods. So it's not a case of losing jobs, it's a case of making the industry more competitive, and there's going to be an upskilling of people. We're going to need more people with more advanced systems and digital skills in the future. So yes, there will be potentially a loss of the jobs in the unskilled sector, but it's going to be made up with the more skilled labor, plus we're going to open up more ore bodies, because there are ore bodies right now that aren't mined, that could be mined. Just now we'll talk about the global shortage there will be with those skills across all industries.

Harry Sinko, guest [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=370):
> So it's also historically been proven that with productivity increases comes greater wealth. Greater wealth then produces greater consumption, and greater consumption usually broadens the production that's required, so the labor force that's required to service that consumption. So for instance, years ago, there were only a few choices in what you could do with your lifestyle if you had excessive income. Nowadays, there's a plethora of that. And so the ready or not in South Africa for the change is probably secondary to the question of we've got to change to increase productivity, to increase and generate greater wealth, and to then broaden the base of labor and skilled labor that's required as well. The other thing, as Gary mentioned a moment ago, is that there's this broader requirement across the globe For skilled labor, that a lot of predictions are suggesting there's going to be a shortage of, and South Africa's well-placed to be able to take advantage of that situation.


### Passage: Why behaviour patterns resist change and how to break habits [07:29–09:45, 368 words]

Note (AI): Harry explains why long-held behaviour patterns are hard to shift and lays out his three-step approach to breaking habits.

Harry Sinko, guest [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=449):
> Interesting question. Most of it's related to an individual's behavior patterns and changing that. If you think about the longer a person does a job, And the more frequently they do it, they develop these solid behavior patterns that are hard to change. So on an individual level, it's being able to work with them to transfer across from those behavior patterns to something new and different. And we all know that when we learn something new, it's awkward, it feels weird, it's uncomfortable, it takes longer, and often the results less satisfactory or of a lesser or lower quality than what we are used to. So it requires us to be able to support those periods of transition for individuals. And nowadays we can do that offline as well, rather than having to do it in the workplace, being able to do it offline, and hence our focus around experiential learning. We can fail in a safe environment and be able to then get confidence in picking up the skills and moving into the professional world. For us, it's really about being able to help people work through those concerns, vulnerabilities, and uncertainties around their behavior skills and, and how they apply them.

Petro du Pisani, host [08:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=530):
> So pretty much breaking habits, because you get, you get so used to doing something in a specific way that you want to change people's behavior so that they can be receptive to doing something in a different way.

Harry Sinko, guest [09:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=541):
> So absolutely, breaking habits so that, firstly, there's a want to want break the habit because it's a better way, acknowledgement around that. Secondly, to be able to then work with them to introduce the new techniques or approaches. To be able to then create a new outcome. And then thirdly is to be able to support them so that they become very skilled in the depth of doing it. If we think about change in its highest level or broadest context, the requirement of things to change requires at this stage, as far as we know, people to do things differently. If things aren't done differently, nothing changes. And if people need to do things differently, then we've got to tackle that fundamental area.


### Passage: How the Simine mining simulation game works [11:06–13:39, 415 words]

Note (AI): Describes the simulation's structure and the typical round-by-round outcome, which shows the systems-thinking lesson the guests teach.

Gary Lane, guest [11:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=666):
> Yes, so we've built a facility at the Mandela Mining Precinct. It is a physical mining simulation that represents the full value stream of mining. So from the drilling right through drilling, blasting, loading, hauling, all the processing and outbound logistics to the final customer. So we can bring in a team. Some people are operators of each of the different activities. We have a middle management layer, which run each of the overall departments. We have a general management layer as well. So it represents the full mining organization, and we actually run an experiential simulation where you run the mine to see the impact that you have, and it brings out all the issues around managing a mine around systems thinking.

Petro du Pisani, host [11:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=707):
> What can you add, Harry?

Harry Sinko, guest [11:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=709):
> So it looks at a system and identifying where the constraints exist in the system. So from a technical point of view, it highlights how we often miss those, how activities within silos tend to correct their areas and processes without necessarily impacting on the entire value chain. So it highlights that very effectively. What it also highlights quite often is that people may start to identify where some of the constraints exist. However, In a complex system with a lot of people involved making decisions, doing the work that they normally do, particularly the middle management layer, that quite often that's lost, that's evaporated, and so we go back into the traditional way of solving problems which tend to be long-winded and don't achieve the outcomes that we need. In fact, the game has been specifically designed, and typically what happens is in the first round, every group that's ever played it so far, and we've probably played it close on a hundred times now with different groups, do not achieve anywhere near the profitability that the game should achieve, a break-even profit. They then go and spend quite a lot of money, time, resources on improving things, because we give people an opportunity to go and improve their first result. They come back and they introduce all of those, improvements, and what we find then is they typically do a better job, they increase the output, however, they're still nowhere near achieving a profit. Then that's where we start to do the development work with them understanding how and where they need to focus their efforts, what tools they need to use, and how to look at the whole process in a very systematic approach.


### Passage: What a digital twin of a mine is [15:42–16:46, 186 words]

Note (AI): Gives the guests' definition of a digital twin and how it lets decisions be tested virtually before a mine makes changes.

Gary Lane, guest [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=942):
> So it is actually one of my sort of focus areas at the moment. So let me, let me try and clarify that. There's a lot of, the term digital twin's been used quite broadly across industries without a real understanding of what it is. It is really a virtual replica of the actual item that you want to represent. So in the case of a mining organization, a digital twin represent the full mining value chain together with its activities, the equipment, the resources, the operating model, together with an actual geospatial picture of what that mine looks like. That pays respect to the, distances that trucks travel, for example. And you can literally simulate every single decision you'd make on a normal mine. To simulate in a virtual environment, so we can literally test what will happen if we make changes and what the impact will be on the mine.

Petro du Pisani, host [16:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=992):
> Would you like to add to that, Harry?

Gary Lane, guest [16:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=994):
> The

Harry Sinko, guest [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=995):
> additional thing I might suggest is that it also includes in our definition the different hierarchies or levels of work that exist within that system.


### Passage: Getting buy-in for Mining 4.0 and systems thinking first [17:06–20:02, 503 words]

Note (AI): Sets out who must be influenced (leaders, government, communities) and Gary's warning about vendor confusion and the need for systems thinking.

Harry Sinko, guest [17:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1026):
> So the traditional answer is probably the safest. We'll start with senior management in all of the organizations that are impacted, so the mining organizations in this case. A large part is to work with them, educate them, broaden their thinking and understanding of what's possible out there. And ultimately, they need to lead the program or the new charge in this area. It's, I mentioned the auto industry being a, a significant leader in productivity increases over the last thirty years, in fact. The large part of that is because they had some very strong leadership in some of the companies that were driving, breaking the barriers of traditional manufacturing techniques and methods. And I believe the same is required in the mining industry. However, it doesn't just stop there. We also mentioned that the new mining 4.0, the digital future of mining, will require a significant amount of resources, new resources, new talent, new capabilities, and skills. And for that, we need to rely on government to be able to help The education processes achieve those requirements that we need for those people as well. And then broadly, it's about communities, communities that need to be involved at every step of the way. The future is largely where we all participate in, and we all have a requirement to be able to impact on that. And so I think that communities are a big part of it as well. Moving away from focusing on, you know, what happens to my job today, and starting to think about what are my children going to be doing in the future in this industry.

Gary Lane, guest [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1132):
> The toughest part about what the mind of the future looks like is actually the people challenges. The technology and the technology implementation and the digital is actually the easy part. It's going to be around the change of people and the stuff we spoke about earlier around the fear of change and the root causes of that. Right now, the industry's bombarded with lots and lots of digital solutions for mining 4.0 or for the digital mine. I would say there's a lot of confusion in the industry. If I was the CEO of a mining company right now, I'd be a little bit scared because I think there's a lot of solutions being punted by different vendors. In some instances, we've just renamed stuff with a 4.0 after it. And it comes down to what are the right things to focus on that are going to create the value of what we're trying to achieve, whether it's a safety improvement or increase in profitability, which leads into efficiency improvement. And our belief is the fundamental starting point of that is systems thinking. Without an understanding of the mining system, you're not gonna be able to prioritize where to focus, and you're gonna spend money across a whole list of initiatives, which is what the mining industry currently does, without understanding incremental value of what that's gonna result in.


### Passage: Change management starts at the top with belief [23:52–25:10, 193 words]

Note (AI): Harry argues that senior leaders' internal belief, not external pressure, is what lets change communication and engagement work.

Petro du Pisani, host [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1432):
> So Harry, I got to know you as a coach and master facilitator for a couple of projects that we worked together on. So what I'd like to talk to you about is specifically the topic of Change Management, and how important is Change Management and bringing people along?

Harry Sinko, guest [24:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1450):
> Very crucial. Where of the opinion Change Management starts at the top. It needs to have total commitment belief at a senior management level. The only way that you can truly bring people along is to have nearly blind belief that what you're engaged in, what you want to do, is going to create the new future. And too often we see that that's quite neglected. People seem to do it because there's a requirement, because there's some external pressure. And they forget that the belief, internal belief, is a critical thing. Once that happens, then great things can come out of that. Because change at the end of the day requires communication, effective communication, engagement with people, and all we have is that in the change toolkit. And to be able to do that effectively, you've got to come from a true source.


### Quotes

> "No one cares how much you know until they know how much you care, and in a changing, disruptive environment, that's a critical component to success, we believe."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [00:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=27)

> "If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right, and that's about self-belief."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [00:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=45)

> "If things aren't done differently, nothing changes. And if people need to do things differently, then we've got to tackle that fundamental area."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [09:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=578)

> "The world is now getting a lot more agile, and organizations are going to have to respond to that."
> — Gary Lane, guest · [10:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=622)

> "However, we've played it with school children as well to introduce them into the mining sector and understand the complexity of mining and the, opportunities that exist in the mining sector in the future."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [13:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=829)

> "The toughest part about what the mind of the future looks like is actually the people challenges. The technology and the technology implementation and the digital is actually the easy part."
> — Gary Lane, guest · [18:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1132)

> "In some instances, we've just renamed stuff with a 4.0 after it."
> — Gary Lane, guest · [19:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1166)

> "it's no secret that technology's been democratized to a large degree. Years ago, Barriers to entry were huge. Nowadays, just about anyone can buy a computer, bit of software, 3D printer, and go to work and create a business that never was possible before."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1307)

> "up until now, the minerals industry or the mining industry is all about discovering an at resource, mining the resource, and then bringing the land back to some previous condition as best as possible. We've got the ability to extend that model further, which is another interesting area that we're talking to a few people about."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [23:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1410)

> "you've got to really disrupt the present to improve the future."
> — Gary Lane, guest · [26:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1582)

> "Ultimately leading us to what is one of our key mantras, and that is simplifying complexity."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · [27:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1638)

> "Open Source Mine, which is going to be the TED Talks of mining."
> — Gary Lane, guest · [28:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1697)


### Claims

> "The mining industry's got to the point of realization that they aren't getting the returns that they require. I mean, the pull down in the commodity prices expose an industry that in, in reality is broken in terms of, of their practices,"
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [02:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=153)

> "the mining industry's lag behind in productivity to the tune of nearly five times less than, for instance, the automotive industry, and a large part of that we believe is effective collaboration,"
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=184)

> "It's doing things differently. Now, not just for the sake of doing it differently, but it's bringing in new thinking from other industries or completely new thinking."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [03:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=218)

> "One of the things that we're focusing quite intensively on is experiential learning, which is accelerating that Experience-based learning out in the business and industry."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Mining simulation and experiential learning · [04:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=270)

> "The first point to make is that the South African mining industry is no unique, not unique to any of the other mining companies globally. We're sitting with productivity issues globally. South Africa isn't actually lagging."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [05:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=317)

> "So it's not a case of losing jobs, it's a case of making the industry more competitive, and there's going to be an upskilling of people. We're going to need more people with more advanced systems and digital skills in the future."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [05:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=340)

> "So it's also historically been proven that with productivity increases comes greater wealth. Greater wealth then produces greater consumption, and greater consumption usually broadens the production that's required, so the labor force that's required to service that consumption."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [06:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=370)

> "there's this broader requirement across the globe For skilled labor, that a lot of predictions are suggesting there's going to be a shortage of, and South Africa's well-placed to be able to take advantage of that situation."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [06:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=419)

> "Most of it's related to an individual's behavior patterns and changing that. If you think about the longer a person does a job, And the more frequently they do it, they develop these solid behavior patterns that are hard to change."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: People and behaviour change · [07:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=451)

> "We can fail in a safe environment and be able to then get confidence in picking up the skills and moving into the professional world."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Mining simulation and experiential learning · [08:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=509)

> "breaking habits so that, firstly, there's a want to want break the habit because it's a better way, acknowledgement around that. Secondly, to be able to then work with them to introduce the new techniques or approaches."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: People and behaviour change · [09:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=542)

> "You've got to go to the core feeling and reason why people don't like change. And it obviously is different for different people, but it generally comes down to some kind of fear, some kind of insecurity."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: People and behaviour change · [09:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=592)

> "It is a physical mining simulation that represents the full value stream of mining. So from the drilling right through drilling, blasting, loading, hauling, all the processing and outbound logistics to the final customer."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Mining simulation and experiential learning · [11:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=669)

> "every group that's ever played it so far, and we've probably played it close on a hundred times now with different groups, do not achieve anywhere near the profitability that the game should achieve, a break-even profit."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Mining simulation and experiential learning · [12:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=769)

> "They come back and they introduce all of those, improvements, and what we find then is they typically do a better job, they increase the output, however, they're still nowhere near achieving a profit."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Mining simulation and experiential learning · [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=793)

> "We're targeted the game mainly at management levels, senior management, middle management, so that's where the main focus is. However, we've played it with school children as well to introduce them into the mining sector"
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Mining simulation and experiential learning · [13:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=821)

> "It is really a virtual replica of the actual item that you want to represent. So in the case of a mining organization, a digital twin represent the full mining value chain together with its activities, the equipment, the resources, the operating model,"
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Digital twins and Mining 4.0 · [15:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=954)

> "We'll start with senior management in all of the organizations that are impacted, so the mining organizations in this case. A large part is to work with them, educate them, broaden their thinking and understanding of what's possible out there."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Change management leadership · [17:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1029)

> "Moving away from focusing on, you know, what happens to my job today, and starting to think about what are my children going to be doing in the future in this industry."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [18:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1121)

> "If I was the CEO of a mining company right now, I'd be a little bit scared because I think there's a lot of solutions being punted by different vendors. In some instances, we've just renamed stuff with a 4.0 after it."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Digital twins and Mining 4.0 · [19:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1159)

> "Without an understanding of the mining system, you're not gonna be able to prioritize where to focus, and you're gonna spend money across a whole list of initiatives, which is what the mining industry currently does,"
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Digital twins and Mining 4.0 · [19:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1187)

> "Investors and shareholders of mining companies, the most fundamental thing is they need certainty. So the government legislation and, and especially the mining charter three, we just need certainty around what the legislation and what the rules of the game is."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [20:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1213)

> "a lot of solutions are already active in a lot of different industries, and learning from those industries, bringing that into the mining industry, and collaborating effectively rather than reinventing another proprietary solution,"
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [21:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1273)

> "Nowadays, just about anyone can buy a computer, bit of software, 3D printer, and go to work and create a business that never was possible before. And we believe that that's going to increase quite dramatically, as most people do, and that's going to bring some benefit as well. But if you have a closed architecture or closed system, breaking into that is very difficult, and, liberating that is a critical piece."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [21:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1315)

> "We're going to have to look at how we effectively share value, in whichever form it is, between multiple stakeholders. And we're talking here about government, in terms of the royalties and taxes, we're talking about employees, the actual mineral rights owners, the communities, shareholders."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [22:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1379)

> "So up until now, the minerals industry or the mining industry is all about discovering an at resource, mining the resource, and then bringing the land back to some previous condition as best as possible."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Disruption in mining · [23:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1409)

> "Where of the opinion Change Management starts at the top. It needs to have total commitment belief at a senior management level. The only way that you can truly bring people along is to have nearly blind belief"
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Change management leadership · [24:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1451)

> "Because change at the end of the day requires communication, effective communication, engagement with people, and all we have is that in the change toolkit. And to be able to do that effectively, you've got to come from a true source."
> — Harry Sinko, guest · topic: Change management leadership · [24:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1495)

> "The South African Intu Mining Metallurgy has about over 5,000 members, and they're representing their members' interests in the industry together with other stakeholders."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [25:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1526)

> "I'm the chairman of the mining part of the technical program committee at the moment, and we've rejigged the whole way we do our technical program in terms of our conferences."
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [25:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1539)

> "And soon to be launched, we are going to be starting a thing called Open Source Mine, which is going to be the TED Talks of mining. So we're going to try and bring in thought leaders to disseminate knowledge,"
> — Gary Lane, guest · topic: Collaboration and stakeholders · [28:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991991_high.mp3#t=1694)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Harry Sinko and Gary Lane, from Vuuma Collaborations, about mining simulations, digital twins and the people change required for Mining 4.0. Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #005 WiMSA | Gender diversity in the mining industry

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/005-gender-diversity-in-the-mining-industry/
- Date: 2018-06-14 (as at 2018-06-14)
- Guest: Noleen Pauls, Lindi Nakedi
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Gender diversity in mining, Women's early careers, Quotas and mindset change, Business case for diversity, Mentoring and networking, Socialisation and equal caregiving, Women in Mining South Africa
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991992
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3

### About the guest: Noleen Pauls

- Women in Mining South Africa (WiMSA)
- Has worked in the mining industry since 1992, starting in Baputswana, for government, mining houses and consulting. Chose geology after first wanting to study archaeology.

In their own words:

> "I've been working in the mining industry since 1992 and started in Baputswana, which just shows how long it has been. And during that time, I've worked for government, obviously Baputswana in South Africa, as well as mining houses and consulting." [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=167)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### About the guest: Lindi Nakedi

- Women in Mining South Africa (WiMSA)
- Background in recruitment. Has worked in the industry since 2010, first assisting her geologist husband with running the business. Owns a company and came to WiMSA as an entrepreneur.

In their own words:

> "I've been working in the industry now since 2010. Officially. And I started off just trying to assist my geologist husband, who was always focused on the technical work and not the business. And so I came in to assist with the running of the business." [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=184)

> "I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities." [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2121)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Noleen Pauls, a geologist in mining since 1992, and Lindi Nakedi, a former recruiter who has run a mining-related business since 2010. Both are from Women in Mining South Africa. They recount their early careers, discuss how accepted women now are, and debate quotas under the mining charter against mindset change and merit. They also cover the business case for diversity, mentoring and the 'pull her down syndrome', how children are socialised and equal caregiving, and what WiMSA offers members.

**Key ideas**

- Lindi argues that quotas alone become box-ticking; meaningful change requires a mindset shift driven from the leadership down. ([13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852) [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=853))
- Noleen argues there are not enough women in mining to fill management quotas, so more must be attracted, and once hired they must prove themselves on merit. ([14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=909))
- Noleen makes a business case: half of technical graduates are women, and a WiM UK study found more diverse mining companies made more money. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474) [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516) [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1527))
- Both guests see mentoring by women who have walked the path as vital. Noleen favours intercompany programmes because your boss cannot easily be your candid mentor. ([26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1603) [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630) [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1689))
- Noleen names 'pull her down syndrome', where women who reached senior roles protect their positions. WiMSA aims to discourage it. ([29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1750))
- Lindi stresses how children are socialised, and both she and the host call for equal caregiving opportunities for men and women. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1275) [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1932) [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1966))
- Noleen suggests some exclusion, such as the old boys club, may partly be women's perception or inherent bias rather than fact. ([10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=628) [20:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1235))

**Lessons**

- Noleen and the host advise graduates to work hard, earn credibility in technical work and find a mentor. ([23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1398) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245))
- Lindi says showing a strong work ethic earns respect regardless of gender, and young people should not expect things to come easy. ([22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1354) [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1432) [24:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1446))
- Lindi argues diversity targets need leadership ownership rather than compliance box-ticking. ([13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852))
- Noleen warns that women who succeed should help rather than block other women. ([26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1603) [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748))

**Who it's for:** Women entering or working in South African mining, graduates in geoscience and engineering, HR and hiring leaders facing mining charter diversity targets, and anyone interested in mentoring and networking for women in male-dominated industries.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Noleen has worked in the mining industry since 1992. ([02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=167))
- Lindi has worked in the industry since 2010. ([03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=184))
- WiMSA started in 2010 with three or four women as a networking platform. ([29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1791))
- The host cites a Mining Weekly article saying female representation rose to over thirteen percent. ([12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=736))
- Noleen says fifty percent of people coming out of university on the technical side are women. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474))
- Noleen says a WiM UK study of the top 500 mining companies found more diverse teams made more money. ([25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516))
- Noleen says women in mining groups in Canada, Australia and the UK have about fifty percent men at events. ([30:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1837))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What was it like for women starting out in South African mining?**
A: Noleen says she usually had only one female colleague and bosses who were protective, perhaps patronising. Lindi says her own insecurity held her back, and clients still wanted to talk to her husband rather than her as owner. ([05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=335) [06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=417) [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=440) [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=449) [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=498))

**Q: Are quotas enough to get more women into mining management?**
A: Lindi says quotas become box-ticking without a mindset change driven by leadership. Noleen says there are not enough women to fill the quotas, so the industry must attract more, and women must still prove themselves on merit. ([12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=723) [13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792) [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852) [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865) [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=909))

**Q: Is there a business case for more women in mining?**
A: Noleen says half of technical graduates are women, so all-male teams use half the talent pool. She cites a WiM UK study of the top 500 mining companies in which more diverse teams made more money. ([24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474) [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516))

**Q: Why do women in mining need mentors from outside their company?**
A: Noleen says a mentor inside your company may be your boss, whom you cannot tell you disagree. Lindi says it is important to learn from someone who has walked the path before. ([27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630) [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1684) [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1689))

**Q: What is the pull her down syndrome?**
A: Noleen describes women who have done the hard work to reach senior positions and then protect them rather than help other women. WiMSA is trying to discourage this. ([29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748) [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1750))

**Q: What does Women in Mining South Africa do?**
A: Noleen says WiMSA began in 2010 as a networking platform and created a patron initiative with high-ranking women. Lindi says it expanded to support entrepreneurs, partnered with SAIMM on an entrepreneurship forum, and works with students. ([29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1791) [34:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2072) [34:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2084) [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2121) [35:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2138))

**Q: What advice do they give graduates entering mining?**
A: Noleen: work hard, don't be scared, stand your ground and find a mentor. The host advises getting your stripes in technical work, and Lindi says be willing to start at the bottom and work your way up. ([22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1354) [23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1398) [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245))

**Q: Has acceptance of women in mining improved?**
A: Noleen says acceptance has improved and women can now work underground. She still perceives that men are often preferred for jobs and that decisions are made in old boys' settings. Lindi says women service providers still struggle to get doors opened. ([09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=586) [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=598) [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=612) [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=628) [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=681))


### Passage: Lindi on insecurity and being bypassed as owner [07:20–08:39, 243 words]

Note (AI): Lindi's first-hand account of self-doubt as an outsider, and of clients who addressed her husband rather than her as the business owner.

Lindi Nakedi, guest [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=440):
> I don't think for me it was ever a problem that I was the only woman going to a meeting and I'm on, I'm the only woman. I think my only problem was that because I didn't study anything mining or geology, then my own insecurities were the ones that put me on a back foot. And that's when I used to feel as if I need to extra prepare for a meeting or whatever so that everybody can realize that, no, I know why I'm here and I understand why I'm here. So my own insecurities sort of put me on the back foot and I never felt like anybody was discriminating against me. But I suppose also over time, when you start seeing how people communicate with you or react to you, you realize that it's not just the fact that maybe I'm not from the mining industry, but for the fact that I'm a woman. And I think one other thing that I, I started noticing is that They'd know I'm the owner of the business, but they'd still want to talk to my geologist husband, even though he tells them, look, I'm not the one who makes the decision when it comes to this business. This is the person you should actually be talking to. And you still have people who say, oh, okay, no, great, I hear that. Can we have a meeting? You know, that was annoying.


### Passage: How accepted are women in mining today [09:46–12:01, 450 words]

Note (AI): Both guests weigh the progress made against the remaining barriers: the old boys club perception and women service providers finding doors closed.

Noleen Pauls, guest [09:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=586):
> Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with the second part of your question. There definitely is a better acceptance, I think, throughout the entire industry, right from your colleagues to the bosses and HR. Although I think that there still would be an issue of where two people have applied for the same job, the guy would generally get it. And that's my own perception. I'm not saying that that's what it is, but that is my perception. Obviously, there's been a lot of changes. You know, when I first joined the industry, women weren't allowed to work underground, whereas, of course, now we can. And it's better. I think it's still a hard industry, and if you look at research, especially women in mining research, women do feel that they're still not accepted. They still feel that it's an old boys club because the guys go to the pub on a Friday afternoon or they play golf, and that's where the decisions are made, and women feel excluded from that. But then, of course, we have to look at At the fact that those are women's perceptions, and it's not necessarily what's happening. That's right. What do you

Lindi Nakedi, guest [10:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=645):
> think, Lindi? I think that there's an acceptance. There are people who are actually trying to say, look, I'm here, I'm willing to have any woman on my team when you look into different organizations. When I look at the business arena, though, I find that a lot of women will come to me at WiMSA events and say, I'm trying to break into the industry, I've got a certain service that I'm offering, but people think that I can't, or when I go and knock on any door, they don't open it because they feel I don't know the industry well enough, or I'm just not what they're looking for. And I think there we still need a lot of change in terms of I'm a service provider, I don't have to be a man, I don't have to be a woman, I just have to offer the service. And I think that's where I'm coming from all the time to say, never mind the fact that I'm a woman, let's put a cardboard box and cover my face Cover my body. Let's talk business and get it out the way. I don't think it should matter whether I'm a woman or a man if there's a deliverable. If there's an output that needs to be there, let me see if I can do that. And if I can't do that, then fine, move on to the next person, but not because they're a woman or because they're a man.


### Passage: Quotas versus mindset and merit [12:03–15:15, 592 words]

Note (AI): Covers the mining charter targets, Lindi's argument that change must be leadership-driven rather than box-ticking, and Noleen's view on building the pipeline and on merit.

Petro du Pisani, host [12:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=723):
> In South Africa, diversity is a huge issue, or it's something that actually is starting to be legislated now. And diversity targets are part of our new mining charter, which hasn't been accepted yet. There's been a new proposal for our mining charter. I read an article in the Mining Weekly where they say that we've made big strides already, that we've gone from a minority representation to over thirteen percent representation, which in their eyes is a huge achievement. But if you look at the targets for the mining charter, it's at least probably twenty-five percent of, they say, black females in managements and Comes more as you go down lower through the ranks, and I would imagine that that matches on the other side with then also other colors also having twenty-five percent representation. So it's a huge change for us to have to go from thirteen percent to probably fifty percent female representation. What do you think it will take for us to achieve these sorts of targets?

Lindi Nakedi, guest [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=782):
> What do

Petro du Pisani, host [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=782):
> we need to

Lindi Nakedi, guest [13:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=782):
> change? Immediately in my head what comes is a mindset change, because I think with everything, there's a perception that everybody will have. So When people are being told, look, this is the quota, you must meet that, it doesn't talk to the perception or the mindset of a person, you know, because now all they have to do is tick a box, and it won't make the kind of difference it's supposed to make. Everybody complains about, but then don't we hire on merit? Don't we do this on merit? And for a mindset to say, look, it's not just about the merit now, because we're trying to level the playing field. What I need to do is to say, here's a level playing field. I need to up this. You know, if my pointer for men is at this level and for women it's here, it means I need to be getting it higher. Therefore, I am going to look at the qualified, I'm going to look at the experienced, and I'm going to start working towards making that happen. And in my mind, it's not that I'm being forced to do it, but I see that I need to make a change, and therefore I'm going to drive it, which is why I always say that if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change that you actually want to see.

Petro du Pisani, host [14:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=863):
> Definitely. So what do you think we need to do now, Lindi?

Noleen Pauls, guest [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865):
> Well, I think practically we have to look at the fact that there just aren't enough women in the mining industry to fill the quotas. And in order to do that, we need to attract more women to the mining industry. That doesn't mean that we're going to fill the quotas in the next ten years because the quotas are specifically for women in management. However, that is a good starting point. And just to build on Lindi's comment about merit, I always say to women, especially to the young girls, it's great to have legislation and to have that opportunity to be Somebody who is looked at because of a quota system, because our legislation is opening people's eyes to the fact that it's an issue and that we need to bring more women into the mining industry. But when you've got that position or you've gone for that interview, then you prove how good you are.


### Passage: Host's structured change management view of diversity [15:23–17:02, 367 words]

Note (AI): The host sets out a change approach for this problem: define the end state, secure sponsorship from HR and hiring managers, then coach women.

Petro du Pisani, host [15:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=923):
> If we look at it from a sort of structured change management approach, one of the things that you do right at the beginning of a change project is you set what it's going to look like in the end. So what will it look like when we have the representation that we're looking for? And imagine what that looks like and paint that picture, because otherwise we're never going to know whether we've arrived at that point or not. And then from there, we work backwards. What are the things that we need to do to arrive at that vision in the end? So whose sponsorship do we need? I mean, do we, we need the HR people at the various mining companies' eyes to go open and say, there's a business case for having women in the mining industry, and we need the people who are doing the hiring to go, yes, we have to have a more diverse profile. If we don't get those guys on board and supporting this cause of getting more women into the mining industry, it's not going to happen either. And then from there on, it's all about, then we have to find the correct women and build their skills and coach them so that they can also be a part of this very challenging industry. But as much as we say it's challenging for women, the mining industry is challenging for everybody. It's not just challenging for women, it's for anybody. If you've been down to a, a mining face at the bottom of an underground mine, it's not a nice place to be working. Anybody who's going to work there is going to suffer. Everybody needs to understand that it's the same for men and women. And then The other thing that I'd like to add is then the whole coaching piece. So we have to coach women to be able to stand up for themselves, have their voices heard, and be part of that, and it needs to be a designed and facilitated process, I guess. So that's the structured sort of change management approach we have to think about what it's going to look like.


### Passage: Mentoring, sharing knowledge and pull her down syndrome [26:43–29:16, 447 words]

Note (AI): Explains why mentoring across companies matters, and names the problem of senior women guarding their positions.

Petro du Pisani, host [26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1603):
> So I think a big part of us having to make this transformation from where we currently are to where we want to get to is the training, coaching, mentoring part of it. And you guys are from Women in Mining South Africa, and it's a fantastic platform for this type of work to happen, where we actually pair people up with mentees and mentors go together. So what role do these types of practices play?

Noleen Pauls, guest [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630):
> I think it's very important to have a intercompany mentoring program because within your company, your boss or your manager could very well be your mentor. So you can't really tell him that he's being a pain or that you disagree with what he's saying. And by no means are we saying within WiMSA that women should have women mentors, but it brings a whole different dynamic into a woman's career progression when she has somebody else who's been there, who's done that, and who can guide her in making the changes that she needs to do to get to the top position.

Lindi Nakedi, guest [27:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1670):
> That's right. Training, coaching, mentoring. So yes, it is important. I want to agree with Noleen on that, that in my language, sotho, They say, which is, if I directly translate it, is that the road is asked of those who have been there before. So it's important to actually have someone who has walked the path before and has seen and done what somebody else is looking at and saying, look, I like Noleen's profile, and I wish I could know how she made it and how she did it. And so for her to open up and be willing to mentor and guide. And I think that's where WiMSA, you know, we're trying to find all those women with all that experience, that wealth of experience to open up to those who are still coming up and who want to learn and who want to become exactly what they are. So we need that. And it's not often that you find people who are willing to open up. You do find the very strange phenomenon where people want to keep their knowledge and keep their skills to themselves, which is What we're trying to encourage against now to say, look, let's teach each other, you know.

Noleen Pauls, guest [29:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1740):
> I do think that's something we see in the mining industry within women a lot, and the fact that they've done the hard work, they've got to the position where they are, and they're protecting their own positions, and we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome. Which is exactly, as Lindi said, what we're trying to discourage.


### Passage: What WiMSA does and how it grew [34:32–36:27, 316 words]

Note (AI): Describes WiMSA's patron initiative, its entrepreneur support, its SAIMM partnership and its student mentoring.

Noleen Pauls, guest [34:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2072):
> So WiMSA was created as a networking platform, but we really quickly realized that we could offer so much more. Wherever we went, we were asked about where can we find role models. So we then created the patron initiative where we Approached high-ranking women in the mining industry who are now our patrons. And basically, it's just as Lindi had said already, saying they've done it, so we can do it too. Agreed. I think also

Lindi Nakedi, guest [34:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2099):
> we then started moving to include entrepreneurs because we realized that there are women who are in the mining industry who are not necessarily working for a certain company, but working for themselves and needed the support as well to network and find opportunities through the very women that are within these organization. I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities. So it's sort of also started becoming more about saying, let's open up opportunities. Let's open up on information where we partnered with SAIMM for the entrepreneurship forum to say, what information can we give you to best empower you As you are navigating through the business arena. So WiMSA, it's like an information hub and network, and now it needs to grow and become maybe the place where all the information, especially the research part, information is important in this day and age. So we have to be that.

Noleen Pauls, guest [36:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2166):
> And also, obviously, attracting women to the mining industry. So we deal quite a lot with students, and we try to get their mentors to help them make the transition from being a student to working in the environment, which you and I both know, Petro, from going from varsity into the environment was quite hard, and you didn't even have that.


### Quotes

> "I enjoyed being outside, I enjoyed geography, and yeah, I enjoyed beer. So a perfect fit for a geologist."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [04:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=280)

> "let's put a cardboard box and cover my face Cover my body. Let's talk business and get it out the way."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [11:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=696)

> "if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [14:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=853)

> "people respect you so much more when they see your work ethic."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1432)

> "all of those who had a more diverse team actually made more money."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [25:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1527)

> "Actually, quite an interesting story, Lindy, about a female driller who was so tough that she was actually fired."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [26:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1596)

> "the road is asked of those who have been there before."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [28:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1684)

> "we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [29:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1750)

> "There is no organization like WiMSA because we would have achieved what we set out to do,"
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [30:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1855)

> "So we shouldn't be happy about having these little Trophies to say I am the only woman too and I think it's ridiculous."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · [31:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1893)

> "the younger generation are doing it much better. You know, for them, it's all about work-life balance rather than working all the time. They really want to have that balance, and it's not a gender thing. I think it's a generational thing."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [34:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2042)

> "We have loads of events in Joburg. We are working on having events in Rustenburg and Whitbank again. We have had in the past and in the Northern Cape. Yes. You'll find us all over South Africa."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [36:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2218)

> "My advice would be work hard, don't be scared, stand your ground, and find a mentor."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245)


### Claims

> "I've been working in the mining industry since 1992 and started in Baputswana, which just shows how long it has been. And during that time, I've worked for government, obviously Baputswana in South Africa, as well as mining houses and consulting."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [02:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=167)

> "I've been working in the industry now since 2010. Officially. And I started off just trying to assist my geologist husband, who was always focused on the technical work and not the business. And so I came in to assist with the running of the business."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=184)

> "My background is recruitment. And so I was doing a lot of work with people trying to place them in the right opportunities, matching them with the right type of clients. And at the end of the day, the one thing that I struggled with is the fact that with recruitment, you are never sure if that fit is actually going to be the one."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [03:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=211)

> "It was actually an accident. I wanted to study archaeology, but realized that there wasn't very much work in South Africa at that point, and I decided to do the next best thing."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [04:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=269)

> "pretty much all the way through my career because I've always worked in really small companies or small divisions of big companies. They've mostly been myself and one female colleague, which was great because in university I was the only girl."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [05:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=335)

> "You know, my colleagues and my bosses were very supportive and incredibly protective. And looking back now, maybe a little bit patronizing. I mean, for example, one of my bosses, he would never let myself and my colleague work late because we weren't allowed to drive home in the dark."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [06:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=417)

> "I think my only problem was that because I didn't study anything mining or geology, then my own insecurities were the ones that put me on a back foot. And that's when I used to feel as if I need to extra prepare for a meeting"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [07:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=449)

> "They'd know I'm the owner of the business, but they'd still want to talk to my geologist husband, even though he tells them, look, I'm not the one who makes the decision when it comes to this business."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [08:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=498)

> "You'll find that women are generally better qualified than their male colleagues, and we carry on learning. And maybe that might make the guys feel a little bit insecure."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [08:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=528)

> "Although I think that there still would be an issue of where two people have applied for the same job, the guy would generally get it. And that's my own perception."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [09:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=598)

> "You know, when I first joined the industry, women weren't allowed to work underground, whereas, of course, now we can."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [10:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=612)

> "They still feel that it's an old boys club because the guys go to the pub on a Friday afternoon or they play golf, and that's where the decisions are made, and women feel excluded from that."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [10:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=628)

> "And I think there we still need a lot of change in terms of I'm a service provider, I don't have to be a man, I don't have to be a woman, I just have to offer the service."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [11:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=681)

> "I read an article in the Mining Weekly where they say that we've made big strides already, that we've gone from a minority representation to over thirteen percent representation, which in their eyes is a huge achievement."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [12:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=736)

> "So When people are being told, look, this is the quota, you must meet that, it doesn't talk to the perception or the mindset of a person, you know, because now all they have to do is tick a box, and it won't make the kind of difference it's supposed to make."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [13:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=792)

> "which is why I always say that if it's not driven from the leadership down, then it's a problem because you're not going to see the meaningful change that you actually want to see."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [14:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=852)

> "Well, I think practically we have to look at the fact that there just aren't enough women in the mining industry to fill the quotas. And in order to do that, we need to attract more women to the mining industry."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [14:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=865)

> "But when you've got that position or you've gone for that interview, then you prove how good you are."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [15:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=909)

> "one of the things that you do right at the beginning of a change project is you set what it's going to look like in the end. So what will it look like when we have the representation that we're looking for?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Quotas and mindset change · [15:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=926)

> "biases are not always, like, obvious, and even within yourself, you are biased, like we are biased, because we assume that men aren't welcoming us into the mining industry, but maybe that is just an inherent bias, and it's not really the fact."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [20:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1235)

> "How do I socialize them currently? What do they know about what's meant to be for girls or what's meant to be for boys? We don't do that anymore. We say, follow what you're passionate about, be yourself, and do what comes naturally to you."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1275)

> "I had a chat with a young girl who was going to graduate, had a lovely bursary, and she just wanted to be in the office. And I say, but even if you're coming out with a degree, you're going to have to start and work your way up,"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [22:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1354)

> "one of the pieces of advice that I give to any young graduates is to get your stripes, you know, build your credibility. If you've studied a technical discipline, get out there and do a couple of years in that technical discipline."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women's early careers · [23:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1398)

> "So whether you're a man, whether you're a woman, you know, if you show that you're willing to work, then anybody else would be willing to respect you for that good work ethic."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [24:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1446)

> "If you look at the fact that within the technical side, fifty percent of people coming out of university are women, then if you only have males on your team, you're pretty much using half of the pool of available talent."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Business case for diversity · [24:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1474)

> "Wim UK did an article about basically to discuss the business case, and they looked at the top 500 mining companies, and all of those who had a more diverse team actually made more money."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Business case for diversity · [25:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1516)

> "I think maybe the girls of the future might not necessarily have the same kind of qualities or traits that we were brought up with,"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1586)

> "I think it's very important to have a intercompany mentoring program because within your company, your boss or your manager could very well be your mentor. So you can't really tell him that he's being a pain or that you disagree with what he's saying."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [27:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1630)

> "So it's important to actually have someone who has walked the path before and has seen and done what somebody else is looking at"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [28:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1689)

> "they're protecting their own positions, and we call it the pH syndrome, pull her down syndrome."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [29:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1748)

> "We started in 2010 with three or four women who realized that men actually know how to network and women really struggle with it. So it started as a networking platform for professional women."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [29:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1791)

> "because the other women groups, like in Canada, Australia, and the UK, they have about fifty percent men that come to the"
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Mentoring and networking · [30:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1837)

> "Where you don't have to have a woman still saying, I'm the first woman to have a drilling company, or I'm the only woman. It's not something to even celebrate because there are so many talented women out there."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Gender diversity in mining · [31:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1871)

> "We have courses where everybody learns how to control their emotions at work, where we have maternity and paternity leave on an equal scale, that it's not just women that get given off four months, but there's also something equal for men as well."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [32:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1932)

> "I think there was a lady who came to speak at one of the women in mining conferences, Monica Ospina. She's from Canada, and she was doing a study on the fact that if you're going"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [32:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=1966)

> "for them, it's all about work-life balance rather than working all the time. They really want to have that balance, and it's not a gender thing. I think it's a generational thing."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Socialisation and equal caregiving · [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2046)

> "So we then created the patron initiative where we Approached high-ranking women in the mining industry who are now our patrons."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [34:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2084)

> "I mean, that's how I came to WiMSA, because I own a company and I needed to start meeting up with other women who are in the industry where I can look for opportunities."
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2121)

> "Let's open up on information where we partnered with SAIMM for the entrepreneurship forum to say, what information can we give you to best empower you"
> — Lindi Nakedi, guest · topic: Women in Mining South Africa · [35:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2138)

> "My advice would be work hard, don't be scared, stand your ground, and find a mentor."
> — Noleen Pauls, guest · topic: Women's early careers · [37:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991992_high.mp3#t=2245)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Noleen Pauls and Lindi Nakedi from 'Women in Mining South Africa (WiMSA)' about gender diversity in the mining industry. Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #004 George Lee Sye | Intersection between change management and business improvement

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/004-intersection-between-change-management-and-business/
- Date: 2018-03-30 (as at 2018-03-30)
- Guest: George Lee Sye
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Change management and business improvement, Buy-in over technical solutions, Tools versus problem solving, Self-talk and focus, Outcome-driven planning, Change saturation and stability, Leadership coaching, Motorcycling and focus
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991993
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3

### About the guest: George Lee Sye

- Started his working life as a tradesman; business improvement became formal for him while working with BHP. He spent years in a special operations group dealing with hostage and high-risk scenarios, and wrote How to Control Your Brain for his kids.

In their own words:

> "I, I've been working for forty-four years and, you know, obviously left school fairly young, but I think probably about forty years ago, you know, I kind of got an interest in, you know, making things better" [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=250)

> "So I started, you know, my life as a tradesman and, it just evolved eventually into, you know, some sort of formal relationship with business improvement, you know, as an initiative in an organization when I work with BHP." [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=265)

> "I, I spent a number of years working in a special operations group where we would be asked to recover hostages or deal with events involving firearms or explosives and, you know, high-risk scenarios." [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=995)

> "They've been downloaded, you know, in the hundreds of thousands of times, and, I think it's a topic just most people are interested in," [18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1086)

> "You know, I've looked at a few hundred companies, you know, in detail over the last twenty years. Probably the first thing that jumps out to me is that every single one of them are trying to do too many changes," [30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1847)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani talks with George Lee Sye about where change management and business improvement meet. George argues that organisational change is the overarching discipline and business improvement a part of it. He says buy-in matters more than technical perfection, and that relying on toolkits is a trap. He links his interest in thinking and self-talk to a past career in a special operations group. He shares an outcome-first approach to list making, and warns that organisations attempt too many changes measured in silos. The conversation also covers leadership coaching and a shared love of motorcycling.

**Key ideas**

- George argues organisational change is the overarching methodology, with business improvement a subset of it. ([05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=303) [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=311))
- George holds that getting buy-in matters more than having the technically best solution. ([06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=418) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=430) [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=441))
- George says focusing on the toolkit is a trap; practitioners should use only the tools that solve the problem, which has shortened his projects' planning cycle. ([09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=569) [12:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=721) [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=752) [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=778) [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=807))
- George argues change sticks when it connects with people's personal values, and that corporate formality gets in the way of that connection. ([08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=503) [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=632) [11:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=685))
- George says controlling your focus comes down to how you talk to yourself. ([01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=65) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=993) [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1118))
- George recommends building lists from the outcome backwards and warns that deadline-driven lists are reactive. ([24:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1484) [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1502) [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1586))
- George says organisations attempt too many changes measured in isolation; he argues they should stabilise and change incrementally. ([30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1836) [30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1847) [31:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1865) [35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2105))

**Outcome-first list making** ([24:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1484) [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1502) [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1586))

1. Start at the result end: decide the outcome you want by the end of the week.
2. List the things you need to do in order to get that outcome.
3. Check whether the top items on the list are all driven by deadlines.
4. If they are, rework how you build the list so it is proactive rather than reactive.

**Lessons**

- George advises focusing people on the gap and letting them solve it, rather than pushing your own solution. ([07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=479) [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1727))
- According to George, people are averse only to change that is imposed or uncomfortable, not to change itself. ([14:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=859) [14:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=864) [14:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=864))
- George says leaders should treat people as uninspired rather than lazy, and work on inspiring them. ([29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1743) [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1747))
- George and Petro both advise limiting the number of concurrent changes and stabilising before adding more. ([31:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1865) [32:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1947) [35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2105))
- George suggests starting with yourself: the hardest person to change is you, and self-mastery underpins mastery of others. ([36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2185) [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2185) [36:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2200))

**Who it's for:** Business improvement and change management practitioners, leaders running transformation programmes, and anyone interested in self-talk, focus and outcome-based planning.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- George says he has been working for forty-four years and started as a tradesman. ([04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=250) [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=265))
- George's projects take two weeks to reach the implementation planning point, compared with sixteen weeks previously. ([13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=807))
- George says he has looked at a few hundred companies in detail over the last twenty years. ([30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1847))
- George says his book How to Control Your Brain has been downloaded in the hundreds of thousands. ([18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1086))
- George worked in a special operations group handling hostage recovery and events involving firearms or explosives. ([16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=995))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: How does business improvement relate to change management?**
A: George says organisational change is the overarching methodology, and business improvement is a large subset of it, focused on improving specific processes or parts of the business. ([05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=303) [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=311))

**Q: Is it better to have the perfect solution or one everyone agrees with?**
A: George says buy-in is more important. A solution everyone has bought into is more likely to stick, and people will improve it over time. ([06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=418) [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=430) [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=441))

**Q: How do you make business improvement changes stick?**
A: George says reliance on tools is a trap. Change sticks when you connect to people's personal values, such as family, safety or free time, which corporate formality often prevents. ([08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=503) [09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=569) [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=632))

**Q: How can business improvement projects be done faster?**
A: George says shifting focus from implementing a toolkit to solving the problem cut his projects' time to the implementation planning point from sixteen weeks to two. ([12:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=721) [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=778) [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=807))

**Q: How do you control your brain and focus?**
A: George says it is internal communication. You take control of your focus by controlling how you talk to yourself, for example asking what's good about today. ([16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=993) [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1118))

**Q: What is the best way to make a to-do list?**
A: George recommends starting with the outcome you want by the end of the week, then listing what you need to do to reach it. He adds that if the top items are all deadline-driven, the list is flawed. ([24:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1484) [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1502) [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1586))

**Q: Why do so many organisational change initiatives fail to deliver value?**
A: George says companies attempt too many changes, measured in silos without regard to the value stream. Petro adds that changes saturate and collide on the same people. ([30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1836) [30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1847) [31:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1892) [32:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1947))

**Q: What should leaders focus on when coaching?**
A: George says he first gets leaders out of a solution mindset so they focus people on the right things, then has them recognise there are no lazy people, only uninspired ones. ([28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1727) [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1743))


### Passage: Change as umbrella; buy-in beats the perfect solution [05:03–07:28, 444 words]

Note (AI): George sets out how he positions business improvement within organisational change and argues that buy-in matters more than technical correctness.

George Lee Sye, guest [05:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=303):
> I think it's, this, this might not, you know, be the same view that every, that, that a lot of, business improvement professionals would have, but I think change, organizational change, is the overarching methodology, because that's what we're doing. And business improvement, you know, is a big topic within that, where we focus on specific things that improve processes or, you know, parts of the business that we're already working on. To me, change is the overarching concept, and business improvement is a, is a piece of it. You know, strategy improvement, strategy development is another part of that as well. So I think it's a subset, you know, of, the organizational change concept, but a huge part of the role of a business improvement practitioner.

Petro du Pisani, host [05:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=348):
> Yeah, I think so too. I think if you want to introduce change into an environment, business improvement is one of those changes. So you introducing a new way of measuring, you introducing a new way of improving and continuously improving. Which means that people have to accept that change, so you have to take them along. So have to use your traditional change management tools to make sure that people actually accept all of these new ways of, of improving and make it part of the culture of the organization, I guess. when I, when I learned business improvement, I actually used your handbook, Process Mastery with Lean Six Sigma, as my handbook for understanding and implementing business improvement. So what was really nice about this book was how practical it was to use. It's a real, like, how-to for business improvement. It's not all of the theory, it's actually how to apply the theory, which is, which is really cool. So what I wanted to ask you is, I mean, how important is taking people along when using a structured BI techniques?

George Lee Sye, guest [06:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=407):
> Look, I think that's probably the key part of it that is more important. If we, if we're comparing soft skills or the change component with the technical aspects, I think anyone involved in business improvement has to recognize that getting people to buy into ideas is more important than coming up with an idea that they believe is the best one. You know, and there's that common belief that, you know, better to have the solution that everyone's bought into than the perfect solution, because it's the one that will probably stick and make, you know, the difference. And if it, if it's not necessarily that good, they will improve it over time. So as far as I'm concerned, buy-in is more important than me perceiving the technical solution to be correct.


### Passage: How to make change stick: tools versus values [08:23–10:51, 480 words]

Note (AI): This answers the practitioners' own question. George warns that relying on tools is a trap and says connecting to people's personal values is what makes change stick.

Petro du Pisani, host [08:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=503):
> poll around my colleagues yesterday around if I had an expert in business improvement to interview, what would be the one question that they would like to ask this person? And the question is all around, so we have all of these wonderful business improvement tools and techniques. We have a whole tool set for change management and templates and all sorts of things that we can do. So we've got all of the tools, and that's not the problem. It's... So how... What do we need to do to make all of our changes stick? So how do we create this self-improving business? Because then, as you say, you've been working in the industry for 43 years, and still... There's still so much scope to teach people all of these business improvement and change management tools. So what keeps you going for 40 years doing this, trying to get people to understand these tools and, and use them? So how do we make it all stick?

George Lee Sye, guest [09:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=558):
> I think, look, if, if, if I look back, you know, 20 years ago when I started to get involved in, you know, some formal improvement methodology that had tools, so let's say Lean and Six Sigma, there, there was a real heavy focus on the toolkit, and that's a trap. People get caught in that, you know, that frame of mind where they think the tool does the job, and it would be kind of like a motor mechanic, you know, looks at the toolkit and says that 14 mil ring spanner is what fixes the car. But then over time, they realize that it's the practitioner that's got to create the change, and they just draw upon a tool to help them either come up with a good technical solution or get people to buy into stuff. I think the problem is there's too much reliance on tools, and In addition to that, people are very formal, particularly, you know, formal about their, the way they approach it, particularly in the, you know, the corporate environment, where my knowledge of people today is that if you can connect with people's values specifically, and I'm not talking shareholder value and things like that, I'm talking about, you know, you want to go home and, and be with your family and, and, you know, you want to see your kids again safely tomorrow, or you want more time so you can go fishing or whatever it might be. If you can connect to those values properly, you can get change to stick. But too many people are too formal in making that connection to the people's values, and they don't want to talk openly and softly and, you know, and like I said, really connect with people. And I think that's, you know, one of the major challenges, particularly in a corporate environment.


### Passage: From toolkit zealotry to two-week projects [12:01–14:33, 502 words]

Note (AI): George describes how dropping methodology zeal shortened projects from sixteen weeks to two, and why people resist only imposed change.

George Lee Sye, guest [12:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=721):
> The change, the most change I've seen is the way I view things, you know, with it, obviously, because we operate our own business and we're somewhat, you know, insulated from the rest of the industry per se, you know, like other consultants or trainers or whatever. The, the biggest change for me personally has been that shift away from being, you know, a, what, what's the word, maybe, you know, even zealot-like with a methodology and becoming more focused on what really it is we're here, here to do, and that's to solve a problem. The moment people make that shift to, we're here to solve problems as rapidly and as quickly as we can, and only use those tools and methods that help us solve that problem, I think people get results much quicker. So if you go back twenty years, and Harry, you know, who you know, that I'd worked with on the book and, and, have done for over, over twenty years, we were both exposed to that idea that approach Or a piece of work will take sixteen weeks or something. Today we're doing projects and, you know, organizational change around business improvement in two weeks because we've shifted from the toolkit to what our real role is, and that's to solve a problem rather than implement a toolkit, if that makes sense.

Petro du Pisani, host [13:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=793):
> Yeah, it does. I would like to know how you affect organizational change in two weeks. Tell me more about that.

George Lee Sye, guest [13:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=802):
> I think, let me, let me, if I, if I explained it relating to a project, like I, I probably should have said our projects take two weeks to get to the implementation planning point, and as opposed to sixteen weeks, if that makes sense. Yes, that makes sense.

Petro du Pisani, host [13:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=814):
> So that you've shortened the planning cycle. Okay, that makes sense. cause I have, it, it takes, takes more than two weeks for people to want to do something differently.

George Lee Sye, guest [13:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=822):
> Well, sometimes depends. See, like this is, you know, how long does it take people to, like if a plane was, you know, the engine, engines all shut down, and you got a group of people in the plane, you know, who'd never jump out of a plane with a parachute, it would take them two minutes to put a chute on. Gonna jump out. I think the, the stronger connection we make to what drives people to do something different, then I think the quicker the change can occur. And, and I'm a strong believer, an advocate that the only difference between those who change quickly is just the level of inspiration versus those who don't change quickly. A lot of people, you know, everyone goes home every night and changes. They change their clothes, they change their appearance. So we're not averse to change, we're just averse to change that's been imposed on us or makes us feel uncomfortable, and we have choice about whether or not we go through that discomfort.


### Passage: Special operations origin of his interest in thinking [16:33–19:22, 608 words]

Note (AI): This covers George's personal story behind his books on the brain and his view that self-talk controls focus and feeling.

George Lee Sye, guest [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=993):
> This goes back to another career I had. I, I spent a number of years working in a special operations group where we would be asked to recover hostages or deal with events involving firearms or explosives and, you know, high-risk scenarios. And we were involved in a job, and in the job, one of the team members inadvertently fired their gun, and the bullet passed between the team members. And this is when we were making entry into a building. And it got me thinking that there was a big difference between the way people performed in operations and the way that they performed in training. So I wanted to know primarily what were the, you know, what was creating that difference. And it just led me down a path of, you know, studying, you know, a whole bunch of things, neurology, neuro-linguistic programming, way back in the early days of it. I started to do a degree in psychology. I pulled out of that because it kind of, you know, frustrated me a little bit the way they were headed, but it just opened up a whole bunch of stuff around, you know, thinking, human thinking, self-awareness, and its effect on performance. So that's kind of what initiated it, Petro. The one, the one on, like, I originally wrote that book, How to Control Your Brain, I wrote it for my kids. You know, it's very hard to preach in your own backyard. So I wrote the book thinking that, you know, one day when I'm not around, that my kids would probably read it. And I still think that's what's going to happen, but, quite a few people who read it, you know, realized that it was probably more, you know, beneficial to more than just my kids. And, we've ended up selling, you know, quite a lot of those books. They've been downloaded, you know, in the hundreds of thousands of times, and, I think it's a topic just most people are interested in, you know, how do you, how do you control your brain, and how do you solve problems with thinking?

Petro du Pisani, host [18:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1096):
> Yeah, so what is the answer to that question? How do you control your brain?

George Lee Sye, guest [18:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1100):
> you've got to recognize what it is that causes you to, you know, focus on things. Pretty much, you know, in, in, in my belief, it's just internal communication. It's the way that you communicate to yourself. And most people, I would say, communicate in a reactive way. They're not aware of what they're doing, whereas, you know, getting control of your focus is about getting control of how you talk to yourself. You know, do you get up in the morning going, you know, you know, what sucks about today? Or do you get up in the morning going, what's good about today? And that one question, you know, just shifts what you focus on, and I think it all comes back to that, how you feel is based on what you focus on. You know, if you get up in the morning going, like I got a mate that says, he said it's a good day because he looks in the mirror and, when he breathes, there's frost on the window. He knows he's still alive. So, you know, and, and I think that's just coming back to, you know, him focusing his brain, which I think is the key to the whole thing, you know, and who wants to feel like, you know, feel bad, but unfortunately most people seem to think that they have to feel bad about things all the time.


### Passage: Outcome-first list making and deadline-driven lists [24:44–27:01, 474 words]

Note (AI): George gives a concrete method for building lists from outcomes, plus a diagnostic test for spotting reactive, pain-driven lists.

George Lee Sye, guest [24:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1484):
> I think I wrote a book called, Kill Your To-Do List Before It Kills You. And I called it that because, for, to, for a couple of reasons. The, the primary reason being the way that you create the list is the most important part of it. It's not that, you know, you have a list or you want to get rid of a list. The best way I know of to make a list is to start at the result end, you know, what's the result you want to get or the outcome you want to get at the end of the week, then listing those things that you need to do in order to get that outcome. And I think that's where a lot of people's lists come unstuck. They just write stuff down without thinking about how they all collectively create an outcome, and then they become overwhelmed. So that's the way I write lists. So yes, I do create them, but through that process. And the second thing, your question was about the, my favorite app. I've got an app called Things on my phone, which just synchronizes across my, you know, iPad and computer. It's called Things because it's the things that you're going to do. It's a list app, and it's super, super simple to use.

Petro du Pisani, host [25:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1546):
> Yeah, the one I use is called Wunderlist. Wunderlist. Wunderlist like German, and it's, it, it also gives you a lot of categories as to how you can make lists and, and you can tick stuff off, and it gives you a very satisfying little jingle when you tick stuff off the list, so I enjoy using that one. It does.

George Lee Sye, guest [26:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1564):
> I don't

Petro du Pisani, host [26:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1565):
> know, only list makers would understand that, I guess.

George Lee Sye, guest [26:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1571):
> One thing on list I'd comment, because a lot of people listening, you know, would create lists, and I think, you know, people are very good at, you know, writing out to-do lists and things like that. The, the real test of whether or not they're serving you is when you look at that list and ask this question, how many of the things at the top are all driven by deadlines? If that's the, the case, whether, you know, the five, ten top things there are driven by deadlines and you're doing them because mentally you have to do it, then I think the process of developing that list is flawed, is flawed, because what that's saying is that everything you're doing primarily is driven by pain, you know, avoiding missing a deadline and avoiding getting Something you don't want. So it's a little tip for people, you know, that, you know, when we're coaching people around that exactly, that work out how you're going to create that list so you become more proactive than reactive in creating it.


### Passage: Too many changes, value streams and change saturation [30:36–33:04, 466 words]

Note (AI): George explains why changes measured in silos fail to add value across the value stream. Petro adds the concepts of change saturation and change collision.

George Lee Sye, guest [30:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1836):
> This is going to depend who we're talking to. I, I think people are over-focused on making changes. I think there's too many changes in most organizations that I've seen. You know, I've looked at a few hundred companies, you know, in detail over the last twenty years. Probably the first thing that jumps out to me is that every single one of them are trying to do too many changes, and they do those changes in many cases through the value stream without understanding the relationship of the changes. Whereas I think the smarter companies today realize that they have to stabilize in order to be able to make progressive change, because it's the stability from a stable base that they can identify what to change and how to change it. And, you know, there's a few examples in Australia, I won't say which companies, that have killed their change initiatives because they've made changes that in isolation, like, you know, the, let's look at a mining company, for example, up at the mine, you know, they could get a bigger machine that moves more material, and they could quantify the value that that generates. Yet, unless it gets through the value stream to the customer or when they sell it, there's no value generated at all. It's actually a loss. And I think that would be the number one issue in, you know, companies making change. Too many changes across the value stream, they're measured or quantified in isolation, you know, within their own silos, and when you put them all together, they don't add up to the change value that they think they get.

Petro du Pisani, host [32:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1924):
> There's this whole Concept called Change Saturation. So if you think about all of the people, who are affected by all of these various change initiatives, and they're coming from various directions, there'll be changes coming from HR, changes coming from business improvement, changes coming from the strategic teams, and they're all impacting the same people, but in isolation almost, and some of them even collide with each other. So you have this other concept called Change Collision, where you've got colliding instructions from various different stakeholders to the same people who have to go and implement the change. And in the end, it just doesn't add up to all of the benefit that the individual projects are said to deliver, because they collide with each other and they saturate people and people go, this is too much, I can't actually deal with all of this change at the same time, and something's going to suffer. So I think it's best to focus on maybe one or two key things that need improving maybe, and then, and not to overload people with too much change, because you just can't.


### Quotes

> "the moment people realize that you're either winning or learning, suddenly, you know, there's no failure occurring."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=68)

> "better to have the solution that everyone's bought into than the perfect solution, because it's the one that will probably stick"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [07:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=430)

> "it's better than having an excellent solution that only one person understands and, and can implement."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [07:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=455)

> "the modern leader today, the one who's more generic, the one who's able to move sideways, is the one who realizes that their job is to focus people on the gap and let them solve it, you know, but be very good questioners about the process that they use to solve it so that, you know, bad solutions don't slip through the cracks."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=479)

> "it would be kind of like a motor mechanic, you know, looks at the toolkit and says that 14 mil ring spanner is what fixes the car."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [09:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=580)

> "the entrepreneurs of the world and the, you know, individuals who do very well out there on their own, they understand that because if they don't make that connection, they go hungry."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [11:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=677)

> "everyone goes home every night and changes. They change their clothes, they change their appearance."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [14:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=859)

> "So we're not averse to change, we're just averse to change that's been imposed on us or makes us feel uncomfortable,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [14:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=864)

> "The moment, and people ask me, why do I get on the track? And, you know, we're riding at 315 kilometers an hour. It's because it clears your brain of everything but one focal point. And, secondly, you're a part of a machine. You know, like the bike, and you have to work together, so now there's an art form where you blend with machine"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [23:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1429)

> "Because I think the real fulfillment comes from achieving something, not from doing something."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [28:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1680)

> "there are no, no lazy people around, they're just uninspired people,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1747)

> "How much do you think that is created or driven by the, I don't know, you know, this, this perceived notion that, you know, a new leader or manager or managing director or whatever has to be seen to make, to be making changes?"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [33:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1988)

> "recognize that the hardest person to change is yourself."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2185)

> "I think, you know, change really begins at home. So, you know, don't always look outside."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [36:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2200)

> "The, probably the best way would be my personal website, georgeleesye.com, because anything that we're doing is going to be there. The new book that's coming out in June will be there."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · [37:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2258)


### Claims

> "sometimes you win, sometimes you learn concept, and, you know, the moment people realize that you're either winning or learning, suddenly, you know, there's no failure occurring."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Self-talk and focus · [01:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=65)

> "I, I've been working for forty-four years and, you know, obviously left school fairly young, but I think probably about forty years ago, you know, I kind of got an interest in, you know, making things better"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Career background · [04:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=250)

> "So I started, you know, my life as a tradesman and, it just evolved eventually into, you know, some sort of formal relationship with business improvement, you know, as an initiative in an organization when I work with BHP."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Career background · [04:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=265)

> "I think change, organizational change, is the overarching methodology, because that's what we're doing. And business improvement, you know, is a big topic within that, where we focus on specific things that improve processes or, you know, parts of the business that we're already working on."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Change management and business improvement · [05:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=311)

> "anyone involved in business improvement has to recognize that getting people to buy into ideas is more important than coming up with an idea that they believe is the best one."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Buy-in over technical solutions · [06:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=418)

> "So as far as I'm concerned, buy-in is more important than me perceiving the technical solution to be correct."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Buy-in over technical solutions · [07:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=441)

> "the modern leader today, the one who's more generic, the one who's able to move sideways, is the one who realizes that their job is to focus people on the gap and let them solve it,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Leadership coaching · [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=479)

> "there, there was a real heavy focus on the toolkit, and that's a trap. People get caught in that, you know, that frame of mind where they think the tool does the job,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Tools versus problem solving · [09:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=569)

> "If you can connect to those values properly, you can get change to stick. But too many people are too formal in making that connection to the people's values, and they don't want to talk openly and softly and, you know, and like I said, really connect with people."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Making change stick · [10:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=632)

> "the same person who shows up, shows up at work, and if we can sell concepts in a way that appeals to the full person, then they might buy into the change and, and our tools better."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Making change stick · [11:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=665)

> "But in the corporate world, there's, there's the danger that if they miss that connection, then they fall back to formal authority, and it's almost like a bit of a cop-out, you know what I mean?"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Making change stick · [11:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=685)

> "The moment people make that shift to, we're here to solve problems as rapidly and as quickly as we can, and only use those tools and methods that help us solve that problem, I think people get results much quicker."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Tools versus problem solving · [12:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=752)

> "Today we're doing projects and, you know, organizational change around business improvement in two weeks because we've shifted from the toolkit to what our real role is, and that's to solve a problem rather than implement a toolkit, if that makes sense."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Tools versus problem solving · [12:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=778)

> "I probably should have said our projects take two weeks to get to the implementation planning point, and as opposed to sixteen weeks, if that makes sense."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Tools versus problem solving · [13:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=807)

> "So we're not averse to change, we're just averse to change that's been imposed on us or makes us feel uncomfortable, and we have choice about whether or not we go through that discomfort."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Making change stick · [14:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=864)

> "I, I spent a number of years working in a special operations group where we would be asked to recover hostages or deal with events involving firearms or explosives and, you know, high-risk scenarios."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Career background · [16:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=995)

> "And it got me thinking that there was a big difference between the way people performed in operations and the way that they performed in training. So I wanted to know primarily what were the, you know, what was creating that difference."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Self-talk and focus · [17:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1020)

> "The one, the one on, like, I originally wrote that book, How to Control Your Brain, I wrote it for my kids. You know, it's very hard to preach in your own backyard."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Self-talk and focus · [17:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1060)

> "They've been downloaded, you know, in the hundreds of thousands of times, and, I think it's a topic just most people are interested in,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Self-talk and focus · [18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1086)

> "getting control of your focus is about getting control of how you talk to yourself. You know, do you get up in the morning going, you know, you know, what sucks about today? Or do you get up in the morning going, what's good about today?"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Self-talk and focus · [18:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1118)

> "If you continuously using negative words to describe how you're feeling or what the day is like, then you're going to be in this negative state of mind the entire time."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Self-talk and focus · [19:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1167)

> "So you can go for a ride and all you're focusing on for that hour or two hours that you're riding is just the road, the road and the motorcycle and how it's handling and your brain is completely clear,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Motorcycling and focus · [22:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1349)

> "It's because it clears your brain of everything but one focal point. And, secondly, you're a part of a machine."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Motorcycling and focus · [23:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1436)

> "The best way I know of to make a list is to start at the result end, you know, what's the result you want to get or the outcome you want to get at the end of the week, then listing those things that you need to do in order to get that outcome."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Outcome-driven planning · [25:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1502)

> "how many of the things at the top are all driven by deadlines? If that's the, the case, whether, you know, the five, ten top things there are driven by deadlines and you're doing them because mentally you have to do it, then I think the process of developing that list is flawed,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Outcome-driven planning · [26:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1586)

> "And I think a lot of change, change projects or transformational projects should be the same. There should be an outcome you want to achieve."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Outcome-driven planning · [27:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1628)

> "Because I think the real fulfillment comes from achieving something, not from doing something."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Outcome-driven planning · [28:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1680)

> "So a big shift that we want to get people to make is, particularly at the leadership level, is pull away from solutions, be, be more capable in the area of focusing people on the right things,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Leadership coaching · [28:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1727)

> "Number two would be, you know, to recognize that there are no, no lazy people around, they're just uninspired people, you know, and they need to get cracking on inspiring people more,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Leadership coaching · [29:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1743)

> "I've been asked to mentor other women in the mining industry, because that's the industry that I'm working in at the moment."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Leadership coaching · [29:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1764)

> "You know, I've looked at a few hundred companies, you know, in detail over the last twenty years. Probably the first thing that jumps out to me is that every single one of them are trying to do too many changes,"
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Change saturation and stability · [30:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1847)

> "Whereas I think the smarter companies today realize that they have to stabilize in order to be able to make progressive change, because it's the stability from a stable base that they can identify what to change and how to change it."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Change saturation and stability · [31:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1865)

> "they could get a bigger machine that moves more material, and they could quantify the value that that generates. Yet, unless it gets through the value stream to the customer or when they sell it, there's no value generated at all. It's actually a loss."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Change saturation and stability · [31:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1892)

> "So you have this other concept called Change Collision, where you've got colliding instructions from various different stakeholders to the same people who have to go and implement the change."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change saturation and stability · [32:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=1947)

> "I think that's a big part of it, because this person has put it, been put into a job because they come with a track record of having done something at a different company somewhere else,"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change saturation and stability · [33:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2003)

> "Whereas organizations are better served by doing incremental changes and then locking those in, so they stabilize for a little bit."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Change saturation and stability · [35:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2105)

> "I don't think anybody brings a change initiative to the table from a bad place. I think they, everybody wants to do the best for the company."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Change saturation and stability · [35:21](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2121)

> "recognize that the hardest person to change is yourself. And once you understand How to connect things that you should be doing to your own values, then you become, you know, master of yourself, and that underpins mastery of others."
> — George Lee Sye, guest · topic: Making change stick · [36:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2185)

> "you have to understand for each person who's going to be affected by that change, what's in it for that person? You know, what's in it for me?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Making change stick · [36:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991993_high.mp3#t=2217)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to George Lee Sye about the intersection between change management and business improvement. Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #003 Dr. Barbara Trautlein | Change Intelligence (CQ)

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/003-change-intelligence-cq/
- Date: 2018-03-25 (as at 2018-03-25)
- Guest: Barbara Trautlein
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Change Intelligence (CQ), Head, heart, hands styles, Resistance to change, Change leadership vs management, Women in male-dominated industries, Client case studies, Future of change profession
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991994
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3

### About the guest: Barbara Trautlein

- change consultant, author, speaker, and researcher · Change Catalysts
- Has over 25 years of experience equipping leaders to achieve transformational goals. Author of the book Change Intelligence. Holds a PhD in organizational psychology from the University of Michigan.

In their own words:

> "I started off in a, by obtaining my PhD in organizational psychology, and when I was in my graduate program, I got a part-time job at a consulting firm." [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=169)

> "So from there ensued twenty years of helping companies in steel and other industries manage change. So in the beginning, again, it was a difficult economy, so a lot of our changes were, turnarounds, helping companies change to survive." [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292)

> "I've done a lot with IT implementations, mergers and acquisitions, so a lot with, again, helping companies deal with and be successful through major transformations." [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=313)

> "So I did. I spent a year creating the certification program, which launched in 2014." [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1000)

> "It was a joint venture between a US steel firm and a Japanese steel firm, and I worked with them for about five years on the people side of the startup." [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1827)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Petro du Pisani interviews Barbara Trautlein, an organizational psychologist and the author of Change Intelligence. She traces her path from turnaround work in a bankrupt steel mill in the mid-eighties to developing CQ. She defines CQ as awareness of your own change leader style (heart, head or hands) plus the ability to adapt it. She applies the model to resistance, draws on patterns in her assessment database, and describes client work at a steel mill and at University Hospitals. The conversation also covers women in male-dominated industries and where the change management profession is heading.

**Key ideas**

- Trautlein argues that the roughly seventy percent failure rate of major change has not moved in twenty years. She says the missing piece is the ability to lead change, not more management tools. ([04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292) [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367) [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=390) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=412))
- She defines CQ as awareness of one's change leadership style plus the ability to adapt it across people and situations. She says CQ, like EQ, can be learned. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=524) [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=577))
- Her model has three styles. Heart leaders engage people, head leaders focus on the goal and vision, and hands leaders plan and execute. Each style is a strength that can be overdone. ([10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=617) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=649) [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=663) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=679) [11:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=712) [12:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=725))
- She treats resistance as information about the leader. People may not get the change, may not want it, or may not be able to do it, and each calls for a different response. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1140) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226))
- Her database shows that executives tend to lead from the head while front lines lead from the heart. She says executives can unintentionally create resistance by communicating in the way that works for them. ([21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1307) [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1334) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358))
- Trautlein says the hands style is the least common, at about eighteen percent. She calls neglecting implementation and sustainment a critical reason change fails. ([38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2309) [38:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2324) [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358))
- She positions CQ as a complement to change management toolkits, which she calls baseline competency. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=820))

**Diagnosing resistance through head, heart and hands** ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1168) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226))

1. Treat what looks like resistance as an opportunity and turn the mirror back on yourself as the change leader.
2. If people don't get the reason for the change (head), explain the change better and tell the story.
3. If people don't want it (heart), communicate, engage, listen and build trust.
4. If people can't do it (hands), add process, tools, training and help, and remove organizational barriers.

**Lessons**

- Trautlein advises leaders to know their dominant change style, because recognising it reveals the other options available to them. ([09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546) [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=577))
- She suggests that, when facing resistance, leaders change themselves, the one thing they can control, rather than push harder. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1168) [20:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1246))
- She advises executives to adapt their communication rather than rely on one-size-fits-all roadshows. The host adds that listening to resisters first often reveals the real issue. ([21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358))
- Trautlein urges change agents not to neglect implementation, evaluation and sustainment, which she says prevent backsliding. ([38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2309) [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358))
- She argues change agents should draw on allied disciplines such as coaching, team building, organizational development and project management. ([35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2136) [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2240))

**Who it's for:** Change management practitioners, organizational development and L&D professionals, and leaders running transformations who want a simple style model for leading change and handling resistance. Women working in male-dominated industries such as steel and mining may also find parts of the conversation relevant.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Trautlein cites research by John Carter and colleagues at Harvard in the mid-eighties finding seventy percent of major organizational changes fail. ([06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367))
- Trautlein's CQ certification program launched in 2014. ([16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1000))
- Her database shows about 42% of change leaders lead from the heart, 40% from the head and 18% from the hands. ([38:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2324))
- University Hospitals trained about thirteen hundred people leaders in Change Intelligence. ([33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1995))
- Trautlein worked about five years on a US–Japanese joint venture steel mill startup. ([30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1827))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is Change Intelligence or CQ?**
A: Trautlein defines it as awareness of your own style of leading change, plus the ability to adapt that style to be effective across people and situations. She says it is a learnable skill, like EQ. ([08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=524) [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546))

**Q: What are the head, heart and hands change leadership styles?**
A: Heart leaders focus on people: they engage, collaborate and communicate. Head leaders focus on the goal and strategy and want to move quickly. Hands leaders plan and focus on execution. Each style can be overdone. ([10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=617) [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=649) [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=679) [11:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=712))

**Q: How should I handle employees who resist change?**
A: Trautlein says to treat resistance as information. If people don't get the change, explain it better. If they don't want it, engage and build trust. If they can't do it, provide tools, training and process. The host recommends first sitting down and listening. ([18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137) [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195) [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206) [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226) [21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263))

**Q: Why do so many organizational changes fail?**
A: She cites research putting the failure rate of major change at about seventy percent. She argues the gap is in leading change, and that the neglected hands style, meaning implementation and sustainment, is a critical reason. ([06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367) [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=412) [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358))

**Q: Does CQ replace change management methodologies?**
A: No. Trautlein says CQ 'plays well with others' and complements existing methods. She calls stakeholder analyses and communication plans baseline competencies that get you in the door. ([13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790) [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=820))

**Q: How do executives and frontline staff differ in how they lead change?**
A: According to her global database, executives tend to lead from the head and front lines lead from the heart. As a result, executives can unintentionally create resistance by communicating in the way that works for them. ([21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1307) [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1334) [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358))

**Q: Has CQ been used in healthcare, and with what results?**
A: University Hospitals in Ohio trained about thirteen hundred leaders, from the C-suite to frontline nursing staff. They report bottom-line impacts on patient satisfaction. ([32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1926) [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1974) [33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1995) [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2007))

**Q: Where is the change management profession heading?**
A: Trautlein sees three trends: professionalisation through bodies such as ACMP, more focus on change leadership, and more interdisciplinary practice. ([35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2136) [35:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2141) [36:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2214) [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2240))


### Passage: First job: a steel mill in bankruptcy [02:43–04:33, 328 words]

Note (AI): The guest's origin story: how a PhD student ended up leading change in a bankrupt steel mill, and the hostility she faced as a young woman.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [02:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=163):
> Actually, I am, like you, I had not intended to have quote-unquote change management as my career. I started off in a, by obtaining my PhD in organizational psychology, and when I was in my graduate program, I got a part-time job at a consulting firm. And in the consulting firm, we were actually, my first project was working with a steel mill in bankruptcy. And it was back in the mid-eighties, and, at that time in the United States, we were undergoing a recession, a lot of automotive plants were shut down or in danger of shutting down, and therefore their suppliers, like steel companies, were really hit hard. So as I mentioned, I was working as part of a consulting team in the steel mill in bankruptcy, and of course our job was to attempt to help them emerge from bankruptcy, return to solvency. So of course that's a huge change. So, so from my very early career, that's what I had been doing, is helping leaders, teams, and organizations manage big change projects. And I remember distinctly my first day on the job, standing up, introducing myself to a room full of about thirty or forty steel workers, and I get up as a twenty-five-year-old woman. And I, introduce myself and I talk about all the changes that we were going to implement, high-performance teams, total quality management, Lean Six Sigma, and a gentleman gets up, a steel worker, he's a huge guy, six foot five inch, 250 pounds, he comes right to the middle of the room, right in front of me, and says, we're steel workers and we don't listen to girls. So right from the start of my career, I was both helping companies manage change in order to be competitive and survive and thrive, and also to some degree, I guess I was a big change just for the, for the folks that I was working with, a woman in steel.


### Passage: Why Change Intelligence was needed [04:52–06:58, 336 words]

Note (AI): Explains the reasoning behind CQ: the persistent seventy percent failure rate and the gap between change management tools and leadership development.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292):
> So from there ensued twenty years of helping companies in steel and other industries manage change. So in the beginning, again, it was a difficult economy, so a lot of our changes were, turnarounds, helping companies change to survive. Then I started doing more in terms of helping new startup facilities build. I've done a lot with IT implementations, mergers and acquisitions, so a lot with, again, helping companies deal with and be successful through major transformations. In almost all of those projects, there has been a component of leadership development, so developing leaders with new skills in order to lead in these changing times. About seven years ago now, I put those two ideas together, managing change and leadership development, and came up with the idea that what we really need to focus on more and more is leading change. Because from the time I started in business in the mid-eighties, we've known that the failure rate of major organizational changes like turnarounds, like startups, like mergers and acquisitions, like new technology implementations, has been around seventy percent. John Carter and his colleagues at Harvard did research in the mid-eighties, came out with that statistic, seventy percent of major organizational changes fail, and we all know the carnage that results from that. And then right around the time I came up with the concept of Change Intelligence, McKinsey and Consulting, the global consulting firm, did a similar study and came out with a similar statistic. So that meant that in a span of about twenty years, we hadn't moved a needle on our ability to design and implement changes that stick. So I was looking at what's the gap. And again, that's what I came up with, that we have lots of tools and methods for managing change, for change management. We have lots of tools and methods for developing various kinds of leadership capabilities. What was missing is our ability to really lead change, and that's what CQ, or Change Intelligence, is all about.


### Passage: The heart, head and hands change leader styles [10:17–12:29, 423 words]

Note (AI): The core of the CQ model: each style's strengths and the ways each can be overdone or can drop something out.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=617):
> So the next question people tend to ask me is just what you did. If Change Intelligence is, you know, the awareness of your style of leading change, what are those styles? And so what I've distinguished in almost thirty years now working with leaders at all levels, and by the way, I consider us all leaders, regardless of if we're the CEO, if we have manager in our title, if we're an individual contributor, I believe we're all leaders of change. So that's how I use that expression. So anyway, so the different change leader styles are people tend to lead from the heart. That's, and people who lead from the heart, they focus on the people that are involved in change. So they, they engage, they collaborate, they communicate. And this is a strength-based model, so that's a strength. However, sometimes a strength can be overdone. So for example, high heart leaders, sometimes they can be on the side of the bell curve that wants ninety, ninety-five percent of the people on board before they move forward, and sometimes the business case, the sense of urgency, might necessitate us to move faster. The second style of leading change leads from the head, and that's the style that always wants to move very quickly because what they're focused on is the purpose, is the change goal. They, they understand the business objectives and they want to move very quickly, rapidly to, to get there. They're, so therefore they're visionary, they're strategic, they focus on the big picture, they're systems thinkers. That's all great, that's a strength, but sometimes what can they drop out? Well, sometimes what they drop out is giving people the plan to get from current state to future state. And that's the third style of leading change, leading from the hands. Those are the folks who love to plan the change, they're very process-oriented, detail-oriented, and they like to focus on how to make this happen, how to get it done. What can they drop out? Sometimes they can focus on change by checklist and be more efficient than effective, and they can get frustrated with the people that they're partnering with in change. So those are the three main styles leading from the hard hat hands. And the other reason I Like this analogy is because just like we each have a heart and a head, and most of us have two hands, we have all those styles in our tool bag. We can do any of them.


### Passage: Reframing resistance with head, heart, hands [18:57–21:01, 394 words]

Note (AI): A worked diagnostic: resistance read as not getting it, not wanting it, or not being able to do it, each with a matching response.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137):
> Well, that's actually one of the bottom lines of Change Intelligence, that I say what looks like resistance in other people is an opportunity for us as change leaders. So often I think that change leaders, people who lead change, they start off with the best intentions. They want to do the right thing for other people and their organization. However, at some point, it often starts feeling like they're pushing the string, right? They're pushing the string and they're getting what looks like and feels like resistance from other people, right? And so, and what I say is that what can we control, and this is a Viktor Frankl message from Man's Search for Meaning, we can only control ourselves, our mindsets and our behaviors. So I say that when we, you know, when we feel like we're starting to transition from doing something with and for others, and we start feeling like we're doing something against or to or even in spite of other people, turn the mirror back on ourselves, right? And see what we can do differently as change leaders, because so often what is resistance? Either people don't get Get it, right? They don't get the reason for the change, which is the head. So therefore, as change leaders, what can we do? We can explain the change better, right? We can tell the story. Second, people don't want it. They don't want it. They have an emotional level resistance to it. So therefore, what can a change leader do? Leverage the heart, communicate, engage, listen, build trust. Or three, they might get it intellectually, they might want it emotionally, but sometimes people just can't do it behaviorally. They can't do it. They haven't had the training, they don't have the tools, or there's barriers standing in the way in the organization of good people behaving consistently with the change. So therefore, what can we do? We can add hands. We can add the hands, the process, the tools, the, and the help that people need. So that's what I say that what looks like resistance in other people, as leaders, we can reframe that From enemy to ally. We can reframe what looks like resistance to a powerful source of information that we can use to, to change the only thing that we really can, which is ourself.


### Passage: University Hospitals case study [32:06–34:19, 354 words]

Note (AI): A client rollout of CQ across a healthcare system, with training numbers and reported effects on patient satisfaction.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [32:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1926):
> So the other project I would share is actually in the healthcare industry. So something very different. And as I mentioned, I have a certification program, and so organizations will bring me in to certify their internal people, so they can then leverage Change Intelligence throughout their organization. So this particular client Is a, a healthcare system that operates across the state of Ohio. And for those of you who may not know what's going on in healthcare in the United States, there's all kinds of legislative changes, and that's causing smaller community hospitals to merge together. It's causing a lot of new technologies to be implemented in hospitals. It's causing very different relationships between patients and providers and insurance plans. So it's just an industry that is going, undergoing massive change. So this particular client, University Hospitals, they brought me in to train all of their learning and development people in Change Intelligence, and then internally, they trained almost all their leaders, people leaders, so from the C-suite to frontline nursing staff in Change Intelligence. They trained about thirteen hundred. They have a few hundred more to go in these concepts. And what's really exciting to me is because of the results that they're achieving. And so, for example, they are reporting that building their Change Intelligence, their ability to lead change, has had bottom line impacts, for example, on patient satisfaction. Now, I think that is truly fascinating because again, how do you get from here to there? How does leading change help you satisfy patients? And we're exploring that more, but one thought I have on the subject is that people are just bombarded with so much change. If you're a nursing supervisor on the floor, you have to, again, integrate new processes because your hospital just got acquired. There's new technologies to be compliant with new government regulations. There's so much distractions that are keep away from patients and their families. If you can build your capacity to smooth out these changes, then that just gives you so much more bandwidth to be able to really do your core job.


### Passage: Where the change profession is heading [35:36–38:16, 431 words]

Note (AI): Three trends the guest sees: professionalisation, a shift toward change leadership, and interdisciplinary practice.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [35:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2136):
> I think I see two things. One of them is that, actually three things. So one of them is that change management, as we know, really hasn't been considered or wasn't kind of recognized or distinguished as a profession until maybe a decade ago. And so one thing that's definitely happening is, you know, I'm a member, for example, of the Association of Change Management Professionals, and the mission of that association is to create the discipline or, or support further the discipline of change management. So defining a, a standard for change management, defining, a certification process for change management, a code of ethics for, ethics for change management. So I think that's one change that's occurring is just like the Project Management Institute did for project managers or the International Coach Federation did for coaching. You know, we're looking at emerging as a recognizable Discipline that we can actually talk about, explain. So that's, that's one that I see. The second thing that I see is that we're definitely augmenting, we're learning that we still have a very high failure rate of change. And so we're recognizing that, as I mentioned before, change management skills and tools and toolkits are baseline. We need those in our profession. We need to know them, we need to use them. However, we need much more of a focus on change leadership, on the leadership skills, competencies, capacities, that self-awareness, that building our capabilities around leading change is so mission critical. So that's two. And I think the third one is just the interdisciplinary nature of what we do. I think that, and maybe this is something I want to see versus that I'm actually seeing, I think that I know that we as change management professionals, change agents, we need to bring so many disciplines to bear. As you mentioned, People bring their emotions to work, and I think we need to understand coaching tools and strategies. so often what we do is we work in teams. I think we need team building, capabilities. A lot of what we do affects the structure and process of organizations. I think we need to know a lot about the organizational development world. We need to manage projects, and we need to understand about project management. So I think that, again, whether it's something that I see evolving or something that we as change agents need to be constantly aware of is continuing to develop ourselves as change agents and also remembering that we can leverage insights from allied disciplines to get the job done.


### Passage: The undervalued hands style [38:29–39:56, 253 words]

Note (AI): Database percentages for each style and the guest's argument that neglecting execution is a critical reason change fails.

Barbara Trautlein, guest [38:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2309):
> I can just share one other insight from my Change Intelligence database that might be of interest to your listeners, and that is that when I talk about the differences by level, but when I look at the prevalence of the change leader styles overall, About forty-two percent of change leaders lead from the heart, and about forty percent lead from the head. Only about eighteen percent of change leaders lead primarily from the hand. And I think that has some serious implications. We know that strategy is sexy, right? So we focus on the head. There's so much research about the bottom line benefits and importance of employee engagement. So I think we know that we need to focus on the head, we know we need to focus on the heart. What gets dropped out and I think is undervalued is the hands. And I think that's one of the critical reasons we have so much failed change is because we don't take the time to implement and evaluate and sustain the change. We don't install wedges to prevent backsliding. And we really don't look at all the different tentacles of what's going on in an organization, what are all the barriers, systemic barriers in the way of really having the change stick. So I would just leave your listeners with that. And, and to think about, am I really as a change agent doing what I need to do to really effectively implement the change and really effectively enable its execution?


### Quotes

> "we're steel workers and we don't listen to girls."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [04:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=255)

> "seventy percent of major organizational changes fail, and we all know the carnage that results from that."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [06:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=373)

> "It's how not intellectually smart you are, but how people smart you are."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [08:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=506)

> "If we're not aware of our style, then we're not aware that we have other options, we have other tools in our tool bag,"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [09:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=577)

> "When you have a hammer, right? You know, when you have a nail, that's a great style. However, sometimes we don't have a nail. We need to get a different tool from our toolkit, and that's what CQ helps us do."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=585)

> "I always say that CQ plays well with others."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790)

> "my biggest one was about a decade ago, and it was when both my parents started, becoming ill. And, you know, they started aging. And it was the first time in my life that I really couldn't control something. And so that really was one of the genesis of Change Intelligence, frankly, is really looking at myself and how can I be smarter with how I'm trying to navigate my parents' aging and helping them as well."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [15:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=942)

> "one of the women came back the second day and she was in tears. And she said that overnight she had a breakthrough with her mother, that in the first day of the program, she got some insights about their relationship, and they hadn't spoken in about three years, and she called her, and they realized they had different styles and the implications of that, and that they were all both trying to do the right thing in the relationship, but just really not … Their intent, their positive intent with each other, was having a negative impact on each other."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1013)

> "what looks like resistance in other people is an opportunity for us as change leaders."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [19:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1140)

> "we can reframe that From enemy to ally."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [20:46](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1246)

> "Really change is one person changing their behavior at a time, right?"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [22:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1346)

> "change is threatening when done to us, it's exhilarating when done by us."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1384)

> "remembering to take a breath, put my own oxygen mask on first, right?"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [24:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1489)

> "you teach what you need to learn, right? Which is hilarious. And that also that every master was once a disaster."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [25:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1550)

> "my, a few years later, I got a call to help start up a brand new steel mill. So doing it from the ground breaking, it was, in the cornfields in Indiana, and it was a brand new steel mill. It was a joint venture between a US steel firm and a Japanese steel firm, and I worked with them for about five years on the people side of the startup."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [30:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1815)

> "We know that strategy is sexy, right? So we focus on the head."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · [38:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2339)


### Claims

> "I started off in a, by obtaining my PhD in organizational psychology, and when I was in my graduate program, I got a part-time job at a consulting firm."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Career origins · [02:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=169)

> "my first project was working with a steel mill in bankruptcy. And it was back in the mid-eighties, and, at that time in the United States, we were undergoing a recession, a lot of automotive plants were shut down or in danger of shutting down, and therefore their suppliers, like steel companies, were really hit hard."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Career origins · [03:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=183)

> "a gentleman gets up, a steel worker, he's a huge guy, six foot five inch, 250 pounds, he comes right to the middle of the room, right in front of me, and says, we're steel workers and we don't listen to girls."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [04:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=247)

> "So from there ensued twenty years of helping companies in steel and other industries manage change. So in the beginning, again, it was a difficult economy, so a lot of our changes were, turnarounds, helping companies change to survive."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Career origins · [04:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=292)

> "I've done a lot with IT implementations, mergers and acquisitions, so a lot with, again, helping companies deal with and be successful through major transformations."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Career origins · [05:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=313)

> "John Carter and his colleagues at Harvard did research in the mid-eighties, came out with that statistic, seventy percent of major organizational changes fail, and we all know the carnage that results from that."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change failure rates · [06:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=367)

> "So that meant that in a span of about twenty years, we hadn't moved a needle on our ability to design and implement changes that stick."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change failure rates · [06:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=390)

> "What was missing is our ability to really lead change, and that's what CQ, or Change Intelligence, is all about."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [06:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=412)

> "However, once you're in an organization, what separates average performers from superior performers, and this is across job titles, industries, levels, is not your IQ, it's your EQ."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [08:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=492)

> "And just like EQ, CQ is a skill that we can learn and a capability that we, we can develop."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [08:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=524)

> "is Change Intelligence, or CQ, and I use those terms interchangeably, is the awareness of our style of leading change, and second, our ability to adapt our style to be optimally effective across people and situations."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [09:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=546)

> "I consider us all leaders, regardless of if we're the CEO, if we have manager in our title, if we're an individual contributor, I believe we're all leaders of change."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change leadership vs management · [10:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=631)

> "and people who lead from the heart, they focus on the people that are involved in change. So they, they engage, they collaborate, they communicate. And this is a strength-based model, so that's a strength. However, sometimes a strength can be overdone."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [10:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=649)

> "high heart leaders, sometimes they can be on the side of the bell curve that wants ninety, ninety-five percent of the people on board before they move forward, and sometimes the business case, the sense of urgency, might necessitate us to move faster."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [11:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=663)

> "The second style of leading change leads from the head, and that's the style that always wants to move very quickly because what they're focused on is the purpose, is the change goal."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [11:19](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=679)

> "leading from the hands. Those are the folks who love to plan the change, they're very process-oriented, detail-oriented, and they like to focus on how to make this happen, how to get it done."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [11:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=712)

> "Sometimes they can focus on change by checklist and be more efficient than effective, and they can get frustrated with the people that they're partnering with in change."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [12:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=725)

> "I always say that CQ plays well with others. So CQ, change intelligence, is a complement to our other change management model methods."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change leadership vs management · [13:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=790)

> "So a lot of it is, you know, again, spreadsheets, tools, toolkits, which I get are extremely important. We need them, and yet I believe their baseline competency, their baseline. They get us in the door."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change leadership vs management · [13:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=820)

> "So my biggest one was about a decade ago, and it was when both my parents started, becoming ill. And, you know, they started aging. And it was the first time in my life that I really couldn't control something."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Personal change · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=941)

> "So I did. I spent a year creating the certification program, which launched in 2014."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change Intelligence (CQ) · [16:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1000)

> "one of the women came back the second day and she was in tears. And she said that overnight she had a breakthrough with her mother, that in the first day of the program, she got some insights about their relationship, and they hadn't spoken in about three years,"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Personal change · [16:53](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1013)

> "I think people forget when they're doing a big change program that it's the full person that arrives at work. You don't leave your personal self behind at home."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Personal change · [17:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1078)

> "that's actually one of the bottom lines of Change Intelligence, that I say what looks like resistance in other people is an opportunity for us as change leaders."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [18:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1137)

> "and this is a Viktor Frankl message from Man's Search for Meaning, we can only control ourselves, our mindsets and our behaviors."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1168)

> "Either people don't get Get it, right? They don't get the reason for the change, which is the head. So therefore, as change leaders, what can we do? We can explain the change better, right? We can tell the story."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1195)

> "Second, people don't want it. They don't want it. They have an emotional level resistance to it. So therefore, what can a change leader do? Leverage the heart, communicate, engage, listen, build trust."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [20:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1206)

> "They haven't had the training, they don't have the tools, or there's barriers standing in the way in the organization of good people behaving consistently with the change. So therefore, what can we do? We can add hands."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [20:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1226)

> "the best tactic, to apply to anybody who's resisting change is just first to sit down and listen to that person. And why are they resisting it?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Resistance to change · [21:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1263)

> "one thing that's very consistent across Industries and around the world is that folks at the executive level, at the top of organizations, as is not surprising probably, they tend to lead more from the head, focusing on the vision and the strategy, right?"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [21:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1307)

> "What's also consistent in the database is that at the front lines, how people lead change is from the heart. A lot of people think the hands because it's executional, but no, it's from the heart."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [22:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1334)

> "unintentionally senior leaders, executives will often create resistance in others because they're not, they're, they're communicating the way that works for them, not in a way that works for other people."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [22:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1358)

> "I find myself using it more and more when I interact with their physicians and the different people that are involved in their care in terms of attempting to understand where they're coming from in a very complex, sometimes seemingly cold, healthcare environment, right?"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Personal change · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1453)

> "I definitely still see examples where a woman can say the same thing as a man, and the woman's, you know, input will be dismissed, and people all of a sudden will think the man is a genius, right?"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [26:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1603)

> "when there are a higher percentage of women in the C-suite at the board level, there's better organizational outcomes overall in terms of profitability, revenue, customer satisfaction, employee retention, a lot of different metrics."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [27:01](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1621)

> "one of the things we know that really helps retain and promote women is how family-friendly workplace practices are. And I think that a lot of the, what I see in terms of the men of the younger generation is they want the same degree of work-life balance, right, that younger women do."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [27:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1674)

> "I'm on the Committee for Women in Mining South Africa, and, we provide a networking platform for professional women in this very male-dominated industry."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [29:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1747)

> "I showed up for the steel mill in a skirt and heels. What a dope, right? But I didn't know, right?"
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Women in male-dominated industries · [29:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1778)

> "It was a joint venture between a US steel firm and a Japanese steel firm, and I worked with them for about five years on the people side of the startup."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Client case studies · [30:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1827)

> "we want to transmit this culture that we created, which was a pretty unique culture in the steel mill, self-managed teams, right, real partnership up and down the organization. we want to transfer that to the new generation."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Client case studies · [31:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1877)

> "So this particular client, University Hospitals, they brought me in to train all of their learning and development people in Change Intelligence, and then internally, they trained almost all their leaders, people leaders, so from the C-suite to frontline nursing staff in Change Intelligence."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Client case studies · [32:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1974)

> "They trained about thirteen hundred. They have a few hundred more to go in these concepts. And what's really exciting to me is because of the results that they're achieving."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Client case studies · [33:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=1995)

> "they are reporting that building their Change Intelligence, their ability to lead change, has had bottom line impacts, for example, on patient satisfaction."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Client case studies · [33:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2007)

> "If you can build your capacity to smooth out these changes, then that just gives you so much more bandwidth to be able to really do your core job."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Client case studies · [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2049)

> "change management, as we know, really hasn't been considered or wasn't kind of recognized or distinguished as a profession until maybe a decade ago."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Future of change profession · [35:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2141)

> "we need much more of a focus on change leadership, on the leadership skills, competencies, capacities, that self-awareness, that building our capabilities around leading change is so mission critical."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Future of change profession · [36:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2214)

> "we as change management professionals, change agents, we need to bring so many disciplines to bear."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Future of change profession · [37:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2240)

> "About forty-two percent of change leaders lead from the heart, and about forty percent lead from the head. Only about eighteen percent of change leaders lead primarily from the hand."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Head, heart, hands styles · [38:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2324)

> "I think that's one of the critical reasons we have so much failed change is because we don't take the time to implement and evaluate and sustain the change. We don't install wedges to prevent backsliding."
> — Barbara Trautlein, guest · topic: Change failure rates · [39:18](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991994_high.mp3#t=2358)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Dr. Barbara Trautlein from 'Change Catalysts' about Change Intelligence (CQ). Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts

## #002 Dr. Ryk Croukamp | Logotherapy and self-awareness in change

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/002-logotherapy-and-self-awareness-in-change/
- Date: 2018-01-25 (as at 2018-01-25)
- Guest: Ryk Croukamp
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: people side of change, logotherapy and meaning, choice and accountability, collaborative change methods, leadership role modelling, culture and climate, narrative practice, closing and embedding change
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991995
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3

### About the guest: Ryk Croukamp

- owner · Indigo Skye
- Worked in sales and marketing and in supply chain in the chemical industry, and on the metallurgy side of gold mining, before moving into change management. A logotherapist; named Indigo Skye after a 2013 summit near Mount Everest.

In their own words:

> "I've actually worked in, sales and marketing for quite a few years and in supply chain in the chemical industry. I actually did some work in the gold mining industry as well, but we did more on the, on the, on the metallurgy side." [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=126)

> "I, I've learned this lesson very powerfully as being, the lead for a major transformation process where three and a half thousand people were retrenched, and I was going to be affected in the process myself." [41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2460)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani talks with Ryk Croukamp, owner of Indigo Skye, about the people side of change. Ryk, who reinvented his career after sales, supply chain and mining work, defines change management as people transition and argues project plans wrongly force people's learning journeys into project timelines. He draws on logotherapy, Viktor Frankl's meaning-centred approach built on choice and responsibility, and on narrative practice. He covers culture and climate, collaborative dialogic methods, leadership role modelling, embedding after go-live, and closing change with ceremony and symbolism, illustrated with stories from Ghana, a mass retrenchment he led, and his own mountaineering and personal losses.

**Key ideas**

- Ryk defines change management as people transition and argues organisations hopelessly underestimate the psychological impact of change. ([03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=189) [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=291))
- Ryk argues people's learning journeys rarely fit project timelines, and that forcing them to is one reason so many initiatives fail to deliver. ([07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=440) [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=464) [30:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1838))
- Drawing on Frankl, Ryk frames responsibility as the ability to respond: people always choose between being a victim or a victor. ([08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=535) [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=856) [14:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=873) [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1032))
- Ryk prefers dialogic, collaborative methods before the change so employees find their own benefit and less selling is needed. ([10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=651) [11:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=688) [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=704))
- Ryk says leaders must role model and internalise the change first; a single visible lapse can destroy a project. ([00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=24) [00:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=30) [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1686) [35:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2145))
- Ryk treats culture and climate as the landscape for change; one unchanging leader can stretch culture change to five years. ([06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=405) [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1142) [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2015))
- Ryk uses narrative practice to move people from stuck identity conclusions to new stories. ([36:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2171) [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2192))
- Ryk argues change must be formally closed, with ceremony and symbolic artefacts, before the next change starts. ([41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2507) [42:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2546) [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2638))

**Narrative practice: from stuck story to new story** ([36:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2171) [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2192))

1. People connect life events into repeating patterns.
2. These form identity conclusions that are often not a true reflection of who they are.
3. In workshops, help them rediscover other events that tell a different story.
4. Strengthen the stories of where they were successful.
5. Allow a new identity conclusion to form, moving from a stuck story to a new story.

**Lessons**

- Ryk advises running climate and culture studies before a change starts to prepare the landscape. ([06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=405))
- Ryk advises planning an embedding phase beyond go-live, measuring where people are and revisiting the change cycle. ([30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1856) [31:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1894) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1917))
- Ryk's pitch to leaders: ask what happens if you don't do this, model the change yourself, and don't outsource your role. ([28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1686) [28:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1695))
- Ryk favours on-the-job training and coaching over classroom training. ([29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1785))
- Ryk warns that people's personal, unresolved changes affect how they handle organisational change, so help them process those. ([06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=387) [08:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=517) [32:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1969))

**Who it's for:** Change managers, OD practitioners, transformation leads and senior sponsors who want a people-centred, meaning-based approach to change, and anyone interested in how logotherapy and narrative practice can apply to organisational change and personal transitions.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Ryk cites twelve percent of change initiatives delivering full benefits and forty percent failing completely. ([07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=464))
- Ryk summited on the backside of Mount Everest, where it connects with Mount Lhotse, in 2013. ([03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=202))
- Ryk quit racing motorcycles in 2011. ([26:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1574))
- Ryk led a transformation in which three and a half thousand people were retrenched, and he was affected himself. ([41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2460))
- Ryk says Frankl wrote to Roosevelt recommending a Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast. ([15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=949))
- The host attended the Association of Change Management Professionals conference in New Orleans in 2017. ([09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=585))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is logotherapy and how does it relate to change management?**
A: Ryk explains logotherapy comes from Viktor Frankl, a Holocaust survivor, and centres on meaning and the freedom to choose one's response. He applies it to change through workshops that help people take accountability and choose to be a victor rather than a victim. ([08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=535) [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=856) [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=856) [16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1003) [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1032))

**Q: Why do so many change projects fail?**
A: Ryk cites figures of about twelve percent of initiatives delivering full benefits and forty percent failing, and argues one reason is that project plans force the people learning journey into project timelines, which doesn't work. ([07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=440) [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=464))

**Q: How do you convince a senior leader that change management matters?**
A: Ryk asks what would happen if they don't do it, tells them to understand their own role because without role modelling they will fail, and says they cannot outsource the role to consultants. ([28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1686) [28:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1695))

**Q: What stays the same about people in change across countries?**
A: Ryk says people everywhere want a sense of belonging and want to be heard; sometimes resistance is simply the need to say how angry they are. ([20:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1232))

**Q: How long does it take to change an organisation's culture?**
A: Ryk says at least five years if one leader doesn't change, and endless if leadership keeps changing; without leadership coaching, values end up as posters on the wall. ([33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2015) [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2046) [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2049))

**Q: How do you make a change stick after go-live?**
A: Ryk recommends planning an embedding phase beyond the project, using focus groups, surveys, the AdCard process and a people radar, and revisiting where people are stuck in the change cycle. ([30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1856) [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1917))

**Q: How should an organisation mark the end of a change project?**
A: Ryk suggests closing ceremonies, lessons learned, shared documentation, declaring measured results, and symbolic artefacts like a painting or storyboard everyone contributes to. ([41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2507) [42:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2546) [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2638))

**Q: Is change management ready to be disrupted by digital technology?**
A: Ryk says his work with the Telestock Institute found connectedness remains a fundamental human need, and that digitising the world disconnects people; the disruption should be reconnecting people. ([39:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2357) [39:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2376) [40:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2417))


### Passage: Career reinvention and the Himalayan origin of Indigo Skye [01:59–03:59, 387 words]

Note (AI): Ryk explains his move from sales, supply chain and mining into change management and how a 2013 summit shaped his people-focused approach and company name.

Ryk Croukamp, guest [01:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=119):
> I guess there comes a point in time in everybody's life when a reinvention of a career becomes an appropriate thing to do. I've actually worked in, sales and marketing for quite a few years and in supply chain in the chemical industry. I actually did some work in the gold mining industry as well, but we did more on the, on the, on the metallurgy side. And, at some point in time, one asks questions around, this is what it looks like in the front side of business, doing selling, you know, selling and, and marketing, and also in supply chain work, so you have a lot of engagement with external people, and you get to a point where you say, I need to do something different. I need to do something more meaningful and something that more, let, let's say, speaks, speaks a bit more to your essence. so that's where I started with change management. It kind of happened by, by default because there was an opportunity, but the real, the real focus of moving into real change management the way I see it, actually started with, mountaineering expedition. And it, and it was born from dealing with things in my own personal life, so personal change and how to deal with that for me was almost the trigger for me to, to do this. So my approach to change also is very much people-focused and not so much about processes and technology and tools and templates. And, in case you were wondering about things like Indigo Skye, it was actually born on the Himalayas. I did a, I did a three-day expedition climbing on the backside of Mount Everest, where it connects with Mount Lhotse. Did a summit there in 2013, and it was actually my own personal transformation journey that got me to that. And so the name Indigo Skye also comes from the color of the sky when you stand on the summit at that altitude. So that's where the name comes from. That's always a very special place for me because mountains are for me special places. They represent for me personal transformation because of what I've done there and the reasons why I actually went there in the first place. So that, that shaped the way I do change.


### Passage: Preparing the change landscape and the personal change cycle [06:27–08:40, 391 words]

Note (AI): Sets out his two-part approach: culture and climate studies first, then helping people resolve personal change, with his view of why most change initiatives underdeliver.

Ryk Croukamp, guest [06:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=387):
> I first look at the landscape for, for change, which really is about the culture and the climate of the organization. Very often there we find things like change saturation, climates that are not conducive for change, overload, imbalance between work re- you know, job resources and job demand. So I, I prefer to do things like climate studies and culture studies before a change even starts and almost prepare the landscape for that to happen. Then what we often forget is, people change does not just happen in organizations. There's a lot more personal change that goes on for people outside of the organization, and that requires what I would term emotional and, and motivational and, and energetic wellness, because you require energy to actually get through a change. And very often, many of these changes are, are undealt with. and we, we neglect them and organize. It's actually inconvenient because for organizations, because there's a project plan, and the project plan requires certain milestones and certain timelines, and it forces the people learning journey into the same timelines. It doesn't work. Purely, it simply doesn't work. And that's probably one of the reasons why whenever you pull up reports on perceived or so-called, failed change efforts, and when I say fail, I mean really twelve percent of initiatives brings full, brings full benefit to realization, about fifty, sixty percent, you know, there are various stats around that, that delivers half of the, of the value, and there are the forty percent that completely dismally fails, which are really just like, you know, water under the bridge, and it, it just doesn't work at all. So preparing people and actually letting them understand how they personally deal with change by giving them skills to do so are, are not really change management methods, but it, it's about helping them understand How does change affect them personally, of, of whatever kind, where maybe it was just an unresolved thing like, a divorce or the loss of a parent or a diagnosis of an illness or a rebellious child or whatever it is, and, and, and let them experience how to resolve that properly, because those are changes at the very personal level. So we use the change cycle to actually take them through a two-day workshop and prepare them for that.


### Passage: Viktor Frankl, choice and responsibility in logotherapy [14:16–16:23, 401 words]

Note (AI): The core explanation of logotherapy that underpins the guest's distinct take on change: choice, attitude, creative values and accountability.

Ryk Croukamp, guest [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=856):
> The work was born from Viktor Frankl himself, who was a Holocaust survivor, and his philosophy on logotherapy was born in, well, let's call it inside the pit of hell, because he found himself in, in Auschwitz and those places. And, and he realized there that, you know, you can take anything from any person, but not his choice, which really was the ultimate freedom. And so when we talk about responsibility, the way he defines it, it's about the ability to respond daily, hourly, to put choices to our conscience and make decisions about what's the right thing to do here. And, so he was not, he was not, not into the positive psychology of Finding happiness per se. for him, happiness was an end result of living a meaningful and a purposeful life. And every day when we find challenges in our lives, whether they're to organizational change or losing a friend or going through an illness or something, we always have a choice to make. sometimes it's, something that, which is a fate that's just dealt you, like somebody loses their life. There's nothing you can do about that. All that remains for you is your attitude towards the situation. But he also speaks of things like creative values and, and, and experiential values. And creative values really is the way we do work, and he, and his view was that regardless of the content of the work we do, the choice we make on how we do that always remains a choice, and we can either try and find meaning in what we do, or we can become victims and complain about it. He, at the root of it sits the idea of accountability, and to sum this up, he actually wrote a letter to Franklin Roosevelt at the time, of the Second World War, and he said, You have the Statue of Liberty on the East Coast, I recommend you put up a Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast. so that gives us an idea of, you know, we, we, we can make choices and good choices, by putting life's demands to our conscience and, and asking ourselves not so much what we want from life, but what is life demanding of me right now? And that really becomes the essence of existential questions about purpose and meaning, and that's what logotherapy is all about.


### Passage: Applying logotherapy in a Ghana workforce transition [16:43–18:16, 313 words]

Note (AI): Shows how the philosophy becomes a practical workshop for employees facing job losses, moving them from victim to victor.

Ryk Croukamp, guest [16:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1003):
> I've actually developed some workshops where people, for instance, we go through a change process. We, we piloted this thing in Ghana as an example. We went through a workforce transition process, and people were gonna lose their jobs. And we, we use some video clips, around Anne Sullivan, who dedicated her life to teaching Helen Keller, as an example, and just show people, you know, the possibilities that exist for them when they try and find purpose in what they do, and that they do have choices to make. So the choice really is about, am I going to become a victim of this thing, or am I going to become a victor of this thing? The choice always remains, and I guess we have to also accept that not all people will do so. we know that we sometimes lose people and change processes, and that's also okay. I guess that's an inevitable thing to do, but we try and land the idea of what does your accountability for your own life look like, because this has happened now. Whether the organization or you benefit from the process is what it is, what are your choice going to be, and, and how are you going to respond to the situation? So we do run workshops to actually support people in terms of exploring meaning and purpose for themselves in the change process, and often, we do things like run these workshops for them to find alternatives for themselves. So let's say, for instance, that it does result in job losses, we would actually run some workshops for them to discover other things they can do, but really it's about shifting them from being a victim to becoming something that, you know, actually making a good choice about that this, this hand has been dealt you, how will you respond to this?


### Passage: Narrative practice: from stuck story to new story [36:11–39:02, 557 words]

Note (AI): Explains identity conclusions, rediscovering alternative events, and challenging taken-for-granted beliefs, including the host's leader storytelling exercise.

Ryk Croukamp, guest [36:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2171):
> When, when people experience things in their life, from their childhood right through to wherever they find themselves in lives, certain events occur, and they connect the dots. And often we find repeating patterns, where a person experiences, let's say, a sense of failure, maybe he had some difficulty with a subject at school, maybe he was bullied, and so forth. And eventually, when they start connecting these events, they form what we, what we call identity conclusions, and this is where narrative practice comes in. And often those identity conclusions are not really a true reflection of who they are, because there were other events in their lives which we remind them of. So when we take them through workshops on how to work with narrative, we, we help them rediscover those other events. which was a different story to, where they got to now, and, and we, and so we strengthen those stories about where they were successful in their lives, where, so that eventually a different identity conclusion, conclusion can occur, that takes them away from what, what, what we term a stuck story to a new story, a new story of a new human being. And these, these practices are very important because people make different connections in terms of their experiences, and they start focusing on the positive ones and not necessarily the negative ones, which brings them to a different idea of I'm not a failure, I'm actually just somebody who's learned, who's learned some lessons and so forth, and that's very useful for the process.

Petro du Pisani, host [37:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2256):
> Yeah, one of the exercises I like to do with senior leaders specifically is for them to do their own internalization of the change and for them to write down their own unique story. For why this change is important. Why is it important for the company? Why is it important for my department? Why is it important for me? And I get them to write that down. So they write it down and then share it with everybody in the room as well. And I think that's quite a effective way for people to internalize that change. do you do similar stuff as well?

Ryk Croukamp, guest [38:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2285):
> Yeah. Again, from a narrative perspective, we talk about taking for granted beliefs and ideas. People don't, sometimes leaders don't like this because it challenges the status quo, very seriously so. It asks very challenging questions, but, it's important for people to also see where do, where do these things come from? Because we take things for granted. We, we, we approach change in a way that says it must be like this. This is the way things work around here. And the question we should ask is, well, who says so? And by the way, who benefits by perpetuating this story? So if you start chat, and now people don't like that, but it's a very confrontational process, but it's very important in terms of leaders to understand that there are different ways. And this is also where possibility comes in, because there are always a different way. And, and when you climb mountains, you experience that. When you get to a summit after a thirty, thirty-day climb, what you thought you were going to achieve is not what you achieve in the end. It's a different thing altogether.


### Passage: Closing change properly through ceremony and symbolism [41:47–44:19, 481 words]

Note (AI): Practical ideas for declaring change finished: closing ceremonies, lessons learned, business-case measures and shared artefacts.

Ryk Croukamp, guest [41:47](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2507):
> I guess, I mean, we, we have spoken about narrative practice, and in the narrative practice, we, when we, when we find the alternative story, which is the story we want, not the stuck story that we didn't want initially, there are ways and means for us to actually draw pictures about this thing, write storyboards about it, publish articles about it, and so forth. But I, I, I also think it's important that when we, I mean, maybe I can ask this question to you, how often is it that when we finish projects and another one comes along, maybe it's because it didn't work so well, how often do people say, oh, here we go again? Because we haven't closed it properly, because we haven't actually announced. I mean, sometimes it could be as simple as saying, let us have a closing ceremony. Let's do a lessons learned, let's share the documentation, and actually close this thing and declare it finished. But it should not just be, the project that's finished. It should also be the people that actually agree with it, this being finished. And maybe it's a measurement of a kind where we say, we've measured a, a level of efficiency, we've achieved a certain business case result, and we declare that and we celebrate that and do it properly. Maybe that's a way to do it. I think just generally we are, we are not so good at finishing things before we start the next one.

Petro du Pisani, host [43:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2585):
> That's true. I mean, one of the, the, the last stages of any change project is the reinforcement, and part of the reinforcement stage is to celebrate success, to understand that we've achieved what we set out to achieve, and it would be great to understand how we can do that. You know, how do we cement that change in the end? How do we make sure that people understand that we've, we've achieved what we set out to achieve and, and reinforce that?

Ryk Croukamp, guest [43:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2614):
> It, it may sound funny, but I, I think maybe simple things like producing an artifact, of a kind. Maybe it's a statue, maybe it's a painting of what we've been through, maybe it's a, a storyboard which we, we put up and we, and, and we share that throughout the organization where everybody, you know, puts their signature down or, puts their little color or their little animal into the painting, something like that. Because I do think we underestimate the value of symbolism in actually closing off things because we only look at the technical side of it and we look at the benefits and we think that's it now. So I think there could be quite a creative way for us to actually do that, but, the point is not to underestimate the impact of actual symbolism, to close something off really properly.


### Quotes

> "if you exit the factory gate without putting on your seatbelt, you have destroyed the whole project in one small act."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [00:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=30)

> "you can do change fast or you can do it with engagement."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · [10:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=600)

> "you can take anything from any person, but not his choice, which really was the ultimate freedom."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [14:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=873)

> "we can either try and find meaning in what we do, or we can become victims and complain about it."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [15:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=940)

> "asking ourselves not so much what we want from life, but what is life demanding of me right now?"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [16:11](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=971)

> "we were implementing an Oracle system. And the system didn't work. So we did everything we needed to do. The communication was there, the training was quite intense, the, the stakeholder management was done well, the sponsorship was present, all the nice things we normally do in change management. But the minute they switched on the system and the report didn't generate the way it was supposed to generate, everything flew out the window."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [21:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1277)

> "So it's okay to have a pity party, but it's not okay to be stuck in a pity party."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [24:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1453)

> "If the role modeling is not there, don't even start. You will fail."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [28:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1695)

> "I guess it has to do with the quality of the facilitator as well. People like variety. I like to apply some very simple adult learning, learning principles. classroom training, minimize that as much as you can. On-the-job training and some really good coaching really takes, takes people far away"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [29:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1774)

> "if the project is over, often that's where the change starts."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [30:38](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1838)

> "it'll probably end up with posters on the wall with nicely described values and not properly unpacked and not properly lived by the people in the organization."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [34:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2049)

> "people will hear their mid-matters, not how good the hymn sheets are, or the comms plans, and how good the roadshows are organized. That truth will come out, because people hear it"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [35:29](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2129)

> "the more we think we connect people by digitizing the world, the more we are disconnecting people."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [39:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2376)

> "It's disrupting the disruptions by actually reconnecting people really, because that's what matters."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · [40:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2417)


### Claims

> "you can put in programs, you can put in systems, you can put in training programs, you can bring in awareness campaigns, you can do whatever you want, but if you exit the factory gate without putting on your seatbelt, you have destroyed the whole project in one small act."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: leadership role modelling · [00:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=24)

> "I've actually worked in, sales and marketing for quite a few years and in supply chain in the chemical industry. I actually did some work in the gold mining industry as well, but we did more on the, on the, on the metallurgy side."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: career background · [02:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=126)

> "So my approach to change also is very much people-focused and not so much about processes and technology and tools and templates."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: people side of change · [03:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=189)

> "I did a, I did a three-day expedition climbing on the backside of Mount Everest, where it connects with Mount Lhotse. Did a summit there in 2013, and it was actually my own personal transformation journey that got me to that."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: personal transformation · [03:22](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=202)

> "I think we hopelessly neglect the people side of change and, and honestly, at a psychological level, hopelessly underestimate the impact it has on people. So my definition of change management is people transition."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: people side of change · [04:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=291)

> "So I, I prefer to do things like climate studies and culture studies before a change even starts and almost prepare the landscape for that to happen."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [06:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=405)

> "It's actually inconvenient because for organizations, because there's a project plan, and the project plan requires certain milestones and certain timelines, and it forces the people learning journey into the same timelines. It doesn't work."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: people side of change · [07:20](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=440)

> "when I say fail, I mean really twelve percent of initiatives brings full, brings full benefit to realization, about fifty, sixty percent, you know, there are various stats around that, that delivers half of the, of the value, and there are the forty percent that completely dismally fails,"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: change failure rates · [07:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=464)

> "So we use the change cycle to actually take them through a two-day workshop and prepare them for that. That firstly lands accountability for them to say, whenever change comes your way, you actually have personal skills to deal with this, regardless of the nature of the change."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: choice and accountability · [08:37](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=517)

> "as a logotherapist, that's something I would stand for because when we, when we define responsibility, it simply means the ability to respond to whatever life chucks at you."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: choice and accountability · [08:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=535)

> "Very seldom are the exchanges really beneficial for employees. if we're really honest about it, it's more about organizational effi-efficiency and effectiveness, and it's about making more money or, gaining market share or improving processes,"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: people side of change · [09:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=563)

> "So I attended the Association of Change Management Professionals conference in 2017 in New Orleans, and one of the messages that really stuck with me at that conference was in one of the talks that I attended on communication, it was all about you can do change fast or you can do it with engagement."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: collaborative change methods · [09:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=585)

> "So I, I prefer to use the term called dialogic change management, which is a, a relatively new emerging theme in the world of OD."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: collaborative change methods · [10:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=651)

> "So we use open space technology, we use World Cafe style facilitation, we use generative dialogue, we use values assessments. These are a host of collaborative change methods that be deployed before the time,"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: collaborative change methods · [11:28](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=688)

> "But once they, once they start getting a bit of ownership for what they can do with this, and they find the benefit for themselves, the need for selling it becomes less."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: collaborative change methods · [11:44](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=704)

> "The work was born from Viktor Frankl himself, who was a Holocaust survivor, and his philosophy on logotherapy was born in, well, let's call it inside the pit of hell, because he found himself in, in Auschwitz and those places."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: logotherapy and meaning · [14:16](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=856)

> "for him, happiness was an end result of living a meaningful and a purposeful life."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: logotherapy and meaning · [14:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=898)

> "he actually wrote a letter to Franklin Roosevelt at the time, of the Second World War, and he said, You have the Statue of Liberty on the East Coast, I recommend you put up a Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: choice and accountability · [15:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=949)

> "We, we piloted this thing in Ghana as an example. We went through a workforce transition process, and people were gonna lose their jobs. And we, we use some video clips, around Anne Sullivan, who dedicated her life to teaching Helen Keller, as an example,"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: logotherapy and meaning · [16:48](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1008)

> "So the choice really is about, am I going to become a victim of this thing, or am I going to become a victor of this thing?"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: choice and accountability · [17:12](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1032)

> "The climate for me is very important, as a manifestation of culture, so we can say that climate is the experience of culture."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [19:02](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1142)

> "if you have a toxic culture, one where you don't have participative management, where, for instance, where there's, another true belief in the value and the dignity of human beings, which is another construct of logotherapy, by the way, you're gonna probably bulldoze the change through with limited results."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [19:27](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1167)

> "People want to have a sense of belonging in the first place, and they want to be heard. Sometimes it's, and sometimes the level of resistance is, is a pure thing of, I, I just want to say how angry I am about this thing, and once it's done, it's done."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: people side of change · [20:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1232)

> "we were implementing an Oracle system. And the system didn't work. So we did everything we needed to do. The communication was there, the training was quite intense, the, the stakeholder management was done well, the sponsorship was present, all the nice things we normally do in change management."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [21:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1277)

> "But culturally, those are, there, there are quite, quite big differences in a place like Ghana, for example, where people, people lose respect in the communities in which they operate if they, if they lose their jobs."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [21:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1319)

> "Very recently, we've had a suicide in our family. I have been through a job redundancy process, of which I was the lead, but affected by the process. I have lost more than one family member."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: personal transformation · [23:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1419)

> "It's a reminder for myself of what, how painful a change cycle can be and how important it is not to get stuck in a certain place. So it's okay to have a pity party, but it's not okay to be stuck in a pity party."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: personal transformation · [24:05](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1445)

> "Possibility is having a positive outlook and always finding an opportunity in whatever comes your way. So it is also an idea that was born from logotherapy in my mind."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: logotherapy and meaning · [25:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1535)

> "I raced motorcycles for a long time. for many years of my life, I quit this in 2011. The mental focus required in racing super bikes is very extreme."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: adventure and self-awareness · [26:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1574)

> "I need to push my body very, very hard to actually get past my own thinking, to access my own intuition around change, and, and that's why I do that."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: adventure and self-awareness · [26:55](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1615)

> "Two questions. What would happen if you don't do this right now? Second thing is, please understand your role in this. If the role modeling is not there, don't even start. You will fail. Either sponsorship, the leadership, And of course, third, you cannot outsource this role. Don't think the consultant's going to do it for you."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: leadership role modelling · [28:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1686)

> "classroom training, minimize that as much as you can. On-the-job training and some really good coaching really takes, takes people far away,"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: training and coaching · [29:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1785)

> "So you've got to plan for an embedding phase, which often goes way beyond the actual project, if you want to get to full benefits realization."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: closing and embedding change · [30:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1856)

> "And then for me, that's where the project actually starts. It only starts at go-live. That's when we actually only start working in the new way."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: closing and embedding change · [31:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1894)

> "I, I, I often use the AdCard process just to measure where people are. We do a thing called a people radar where we track an emotional and a cognitive journey."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: closing and embedding change · [31:57](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1917)

> "I try and help people find, examples of, of real life examples in their own lives where they are, of a change that they haven't dealt with properly yet, something that still lingers somewhere in their past."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: personal transformation · [32:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=1969)

> "If you have one leader that doesn't change, five years at least. If you have leadership challenges and people, new people come in, you'll be forever busy doing that."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [33:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2015)

> "then culture change will probably be, it'll probably end up with posters on the wall with nicely described values and not properly unpacked and not properly lived by the people in the organization."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [34:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2046)

> "we actually help people understand their own value propositions by translating the strategy of the organization down to different levels, where each team, each department actually connects to their own vision,"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: culture and climate · [34:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2073)

> "So for me, a critical piece of work for leadership is to actually internalize this change first, really believe this is the right thing to do, really believe in the people capability to take them along on the journey, and then only start the process."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: leadership role modelling · [35:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2145)

> "And eventually, when they start connecting these events, they form what we, what we call identity conclusions, and this is where narrative practice comes in. And often those identity conclusions are not really a true reflection of who they are, because there were other events in their lives which we remind them of."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: narrative practice · [36:32](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2192)

> "Yeah, one of the exercises I like to do with senior leaders specifically is for them to do their own internalization of the change and for them to write down their own unique story."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: leadership role modelling · [37:36](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2256)

> "And the question we should ask is, well, who says so? And by the way, who benefits by perpetuating this story?"
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: narrative practice · [38:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2311)

> "we have done some work by, through the Telestock Institute in London, where we started looking at how people perceive the digital world. And one thing that came out very strongly for us is one fundamental human need that remains is connectedness."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: future of change management · [39:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2357)

> "I, I've learned this lesson very powerfully as being, the lead for a major transformation process where three and a half thousand people were retrenched, and I was going to be affected in the process myself."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: personal transformation · [41:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2460)

> "I mean, sometimes it could be as simple as saying, let us have a closing ceremony. Let's do a lessons learned, let's share the documentation, and actually close this thing and declare it finished."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: closing and embedding change · [42:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2546)

> "Because I do think we underestimate the value of symbolism in actually closing off things because we only look at the technical side of it and we look at the benefits and we think that's it now."
> — Ryk Croukamp, guest · topic: closing and embedding change · [43:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991995_high.mp3#t=2638)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to Dr. Ryk Croukamp from 'Indigo Skye' about logotherapy and self-awareness in change Indigo Skye � Connect with Ryk on LinkedIn � Viktor Frankl Institute of South Africa � Connect with Petro � Solid Gold Podcasts

## #001 Tom Marsicano | Change in a production environment

- Page: https://context.onchange.co.za/episodes/001-change-in-a-production-environment/
- Date: 2017-11-18 (as at 2017-11-18)
- Guest: Tom Marsicano
- Host: Petro du Pisani
- Themes: Defining change management, Change in production environments, Culture and change, Resistance to change, Supervisors as change leaders, Training shift workers, Technology to embed change, Change and project management
- Episode: https://iono.fm/e/991996
- Audio: https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3

### About the guest: Tom Marsicano

- co-founder and director · AndChange
- Started off in business and in IT as an IT professional before moving into change management; started out with change management in the financial and IT sectors; co-founder and director of AndChange.
- Links: AndChange.com

In their own words:

> "No, I didn't start off in change management. I started off in business in general. In fact, I started off in IT, as an IT, professional." [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=264)

> "I chose change management because of, a conviction that I could make a difference by applying all that I've learned in my life to helping others cope with many difficulties they have to deal with." [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=274)

> "AndChange is a globally inspired group where an experienced and creative team apply and integrate a unique mix of knowledge and methods and research in this, field with a personal flair and curiosity." [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=314)

(Guest details come from the published episode notes or the guest's own words.)

### Episode analysis (AI, drawn only from this episode; each point cites its moment)

Host Petro du Pisani interviews Tom Marsicano, co-founder and director of AndChange, about applying change management in production settings such as mining. Tom, who started in IT and the financial sector, defines change management as leading people to change what they think, feel and do so organisations achieve strategy. He compares call centres with mines, discusses layered cultures, the tension between production targets and change, change saturation, the role of supervisors, bite-sized training for shift workers, tactics for resistance, and using everyday technology. He closes by arguing change management must become a strategic capability beyond project management. A clip from Tim Creasey of Prosci opens the discussion.

**Key ideas**

- Tom defines change management as the practice that leads people to truly change what they think, feel and do, so organisations achieve strategy; managing the right change matters as much as managing it well. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=234) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=248))
- Tom argues service and production industries share efficiency drivers, so resistance looks similar and a good change manager can move between industries. ([05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=342) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416) [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=470) [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=479))
- Tom sees multiple cultures operating at once — leader, organisation and society — so each location needs a different deployment. ([08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=505) [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=531) [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=579))
- Tom says the main production challenge is balancing production against change disruption; management focus is the scarcest resource and overload leads to change saturation. ([10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652) [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=656) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743))
- Tom calls supervisors 'glueware' who carry people to adoption, and insists change managers should not substitute for them. ([15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=941) [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=943) [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993))
- Tom's resistance tactics are removing barriers, explaining consequences of not changing, and listening, which he calls the most powerful. ([18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210) [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1240))
- Tom and the host argue familiar technology such as phone apps can embed change and track people's change journey in real time. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1275) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1286) [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320) [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1384) [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1432))
- Tom sees a worldwide shortage of change managers and wants change management built as a strategic capability beyond project management. ([00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=0) [24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1475) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1517))

**Tactics for managing resistance in production environments** ([18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210))

1. Remove barriers to changing, such as lack of time or measures that reward the old behaviour, working with management.
2. Explain the consequences of not changing for the individual, their team and colleagues.
3. Listen to objections and concerns, and use them to tweak the solution and show you care.

**Lessons**

- Tom advises including supervisors and middle managers in change teams because people work for their leaders. ([16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993))
- Tom suggests breaking training into small bites delivered on or near the job, as with 15-20 minute sessions in shacks on miners' walkways. ([17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1045) [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070))
- Tom warns that forcing change produces compliance rather than real adoption. ([19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196) [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196))
- Tom cautions that pushing change onto already stretched teams risks change saturation where the change does not take hold. ([10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652) [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743))
- Tom notes that personal changes are the tough ones, and that knowing change management does not make change easier. ([14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=866) [14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=879) [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=882))

**Who it's for:** Change managers, operations leaders and project managers in mining, oil and gas, manufacturing or other production settings, and practitioners moving between service and production industries who want practical tactics for resistance, training and supervisor involvement.

**Facts stated in the episode**

- Tom says saving ten seconds per call in call centres handling tens of thousands of calls daily is a big efficiency improvement. ([06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416))
- Tom cites a deployment in Mexico that differed greatly from colleagues about a thousand kilometres away in the USA. ([09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=579))
- At an opencast mine, Tom's team had about 15 to 20 minutes with miners between shifts for training. ([17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070))
- Tom completed a safety app and short training before visiting his client Sasol. ([22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320))
- Tom recommends the book 'C.E.O. Gandhi' on servant leadership. ([13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=780))

### Questions this episode answers

**Q: What is change management, really?**
A: Tom Marsicano defines it as the practice that leads people to truly change what they think, feel and do, in an organisational context so organisations achieve their strategies. It is about managing the right change, not only managing change well. ([03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=234) [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=248))

**Q: Is change management in mining different from change management in banking?**
A: Tom argues the drivers look different but both focus on efficiency, quality and consistency, so resistance is similar. The principles are the same; only the technical language differs. ([05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=342) [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=377) [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416) [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=470))

**Q: What is the biggest challenge when implementing change in a production environment?**
A: Tom says managers struggle to balance production targets against the disruption of change. Management focus is the scarcest resource, so the easier option can seem to be deferring change. ([10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652) [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=656) [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690))

**Q: What is change saturation?**
A: Tom describes it as what happens when people are already pushed to the limit and the next change causes things to go negative, people to resist, and the change fails to take hold. ([12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743))

**Q: How do you train shift workers who can't leave their shifts?**
A: Tom recommends short, bite-sized training on or near the job. At an opencast mine his team set up shacks on the miners' walkways and had 15-20 minutes with them between shifts. ([17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1045) [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070))

**Q: How should you deal with resistance to change?**
A: Tom recommends removing barriers such as time pressure or misaligned measures, explaining the consequences of not changing, and above all listening to concerns. He warns that forcing change only produces compliance. ([18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120) [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129) [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171) [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196) [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210))

**Q: Why do supervisors matter so much in change?**
A: Tom calls them 'glueware': they translate the change, show support and coach people from ignorance and fear to full adoption. People work for their leaders, so change managers should not substitute for them. ([15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=943) [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973) [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993))

**Q: Can technology help make organisational change stick?**
A: Tom says it must be used. He cites a railway operator using phone messaging to track rolling stock and a Sasol safety app that recorded his completed training. The host suggests an app to track people's change journey. ([21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1275) [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1286) [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320) [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1384))

**Q: Is the slow uptake of change management just a South African problem?**
A: Tom sees it as a worldwide problem, with a shortage of change managers everywhere. He wants change management integrated into mature project management but also built as a strategic capability beyond it. ([24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1475) [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1499) [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1517))


### Passage: The Easter Bunny paradox of change management definitions [01:08–03:24, 433 words]

Note (AI): A memorable illustration of why the term change management means different things to different people, setting up the need for a clear definition.

Tim Creasey, intro voice or played clip [01:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=68):
> And so I'm going to tell you a story about the Easter Bunny. It's what I call the Easter Bunny paradox, and your religious affiliation matters not to me for two reasons. One, you know of the Easter Bunny, right? And two, you know it's not real, right? Okay. So bear with me, and I'm going to connect it back to value management. It's about eight years ago, my wife and I are sitting on the couch, it's around Easter, and I look at her, and I say, when you were a kid, And you envisioned the real Easter bunny, the real one. How big was it? Think about that. And she goes, well, it was about six feet tall. And I start scoffingly laughing at her, right? This is my partner in life, and she is so wrong about how big the Easter bunny was, because we all know, well, I know the Easter bunny is about the size of a golden retriever on its hind legs, about four feet tall. And so being a researcher, I started emailing everybody in my contact list, and luckily none of you were in the contact list at the time. But I started asking them, how big was your Easter bunny? And some people came back, like some people, you know, six foot, like was her answer, that was kind of the most normal. Some people came back like ten foot tall, like nightmare inducing Sasquatch bunny, right? Some people said it, said it was like this big, like the size of an actual bunny. and then a few people got the right answer, which is about four feet tall. Now, being the good researcher, the second email went back to him and said, well, did it walk or did it hop, and what color was it? And that's when people started replying, unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsub, right? Stop asking me about the Easter bunny, but here's the interesting thing. None of us have ever seen the real Easter bunny. Cause it's not real. But we all had something pop into our head when we thought about what the real, how big the real Easter Bunny was. So I tell the story in the Change Management space because when you go out and say Change Management, you have no idea what's going to pop in that person's head. They might think communication and training, they might think, oh, you must mean managing hardware, software version control. Oh, what do we do for our project when scope changes? You have no idea what pops into their head.


### Passage: Comparing change in banking call centres and mining [05:42–08:08, 400 words]

Note (AI): Tom argues that efficiency drivers and resistance look alike across service and production industries, so change skills transfer between sectors.

Petro du Pisani, host [05:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=342):
> Hey, so Tom, I know that you started out with change management in the financial and IT sectors. Today, I would like to explore how to use change management in a production environment, which is where I'm from. How would the change management approach differ between the financial IT sectors and a more production-based environment like mining, oil, gas, or manufacturing?

Tom Marsicano, guest [06:03](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=363):
> Yeah, if you think of the industries, you know, each industry has its own drivers, some, the same as others, but, what, what we've seen is that, what is driving organizations and their development changes over time. I understand that, in mining, there is always the underlying drivers of, safety and tons. get those two right within a constraints of cost and market, forces, and we're halfway there. In a service industry, like banks, for example, it's about providing a total experience for the customer that builds loyalty and share of wallet. That sounds very different, but go under the covers and look at the way a bank runs its call center operation, for example, and possibly how a mine runs its ore extraction processes, and you may find very similar drivers there. Both are driven to increase efficiency, quality, and consistency. So, for example, in the call center, everything is measured down to the second, because those seconds are a wasting asset, and saving ten seconds per phone call while keeping the quality of service high in an environment where there are tens of thousands of phone calls being handled every day equates to quite a big efficiency improvement. I'm no mining expert, but when I recently observed a huge open cast mine operating, I could see the same focus on getting, the flow of the ore right in each step of the process. So introducing changes in both environments is likely to, receive similar kinds of responses. The threat of change to disrupt their efficiencies will be met with resistance, so we shouldn't be surprised by that. It's surprising, though, to see how similar the resistance is, even if the way it's expressed and the technical terms are different. It's always about building the same five key elements with people to get them to change. So the good news is that a good change manager in one industry can actually do quite well in another because the principles are the same, just the techno talk is different.


### Passage: Multiple cultures shaping how change lands [08:25–10:34, 364 words]

Note (AI): Covers layered leader, organisational and societal cultures, with Mexico/USA and Brazil/Australia examples of adapting a change approach.

Tom Marsicano, guest [08:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=505):
> Yeah. So, you know, when you look at these cultures from the outside, you see different appearances. People look different, and they seem to act differently. And the importance of culture in managing change has come to the fore in recent years. There's a growing realization that the prevailing culture in an affected area drives different approaches. I think the change management practice hasn't yet mastered, this, and is one of the big themes we talk about on our website. I say this because you're likely to find multiple cultures operating simultaneously in any area. There's the culture driven by the leader, but there is also the culture of the organization at large, and that this group is part of. And of course, there's always the underlying culture of the society that the organization is part of. I see this a lot when we work in multinationals, for example, especially those, that have been around a long time. What we see is, that the prevailing culture is not one of these, it's actually a mix of all. So each location is unique. So in one of our clients, the, the same business unit in the same insurance company, but in different locations, will have different cultures. In a change that involved changing the way people worked in this environment, that included office layout, pace of work, the collaboration techniques, and even the etiquette amongst the, amongst the workers, the deployment of this in Mexico, for example, was very different from the colleagues just a thousand kilometers away in the USA. You see the same in Europe, but also in Africa, and so we go. Have you not seen this in mining?

Petro du Pisani, host [10:07](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=607):
> Oh, definitely. I mean, I've worked across the globe as well, and the culture in Brazil is very, very different to, for instance, the culture in Canada or Australia. In Brazil, I see a very hierarchical structure. So you'll see if the manager says one thing, then everybody will follow. Whereas if you work in a, a country like Australia, it is much more collaborative, and everybody has to buy in. So it's quite a different way of having to apply change management.


### Passage: Production pressure versus change disruption and saturation [10:52–12:38, 315 words]

Note (AI): Explains why managers defer change when production consumes their focus, and introduces change saturation.

Tom Marsicano, guest [10:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=652):
> Yeah, I think it would be difficult to single out one challenge throughout. But what I have seen is the difficulty management has in balancing the priority. Of production against the disruption of the change itself. They are squeezed on both ends, you know. On the one hand, they've got to achieve the production targets, but also lead your people through the change, because that's what the C-suite wants. This, these sort of challenges, cut across all levels of management, actually. So the resistance to change is significant. The change absorbs resources, of course. Doing change absorbs resources, there's no doubt about it, and, you know, it's more than money. The scarcest of all these resources, of course, is, management focus, and the change demands a lot of that. So in an environment where there is only just enough to keep the production going, When I find more to concentrate on the change becomes the kind of question that you would, you hear them ask themselves. Perhaps the easier option is to defer the change as long as possible or do as little as possible, and that's, that's the kind of challenge that we see in production environments.

Petro du Pisani, host [12:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=720):
> Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I mean, if a manager is just barely trying to keep in mind making money, to bring any change into that environment, it just dilutes his focus. Not

Tom Marsicano, guest [12:09](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=729):
> dilutes the focus, yeah. And they, and if they're already, you know, if as a result of, previous efficiency drives, we're pushing everyone to the limit, then the next change is going to push us over the limit, and we start to experience something we call change saturation, which sort of happens when the next change that we try to effect in that environment just causes, things to go negative, people to resist, and the change actually doesn't take, take hold.


### Passage: Three tactics for managing resistance to change [18:40–20:47, 404 words]

Note (AI): Tom lays out removing barriers, explaining consequences of not changing, and listening, with reasoning for each.

Tom Marsicano, guest [18:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1120):
> I think in the environment that we're talking about, these sort of heavy production environments, the most effective that I've seen, especially, you know, in these sort of situations, one of the big ones is removing the barriers. You know, people have barriers to changing. These can vary from time obstacles, you know, I just don't have the time to do this new stuff, or, maybe even changing the measures, the way in which we measure people, because, you know, if I'm measured this way, and then I'm going to behave, you know, to, to achieve those measures. So find out what these are and work very hard with management to get them out of the way would be the, the right thing to do there. I recently read an article about building, you know, those agile organizations, and there again, a suggestions that the tactics that we need to use is tactics that focus on getting these obstacles out the way so people can change. Another good one is explaining the consequences of not changing. It's the kind of so what, which is really important to, to a lot of people. But what will happen to me, you know, if I don't change? I need to know that. How will I affect my team if I don't change? How will my colleagues react to me if I don't support them? Getting this really clear helps me decide where I stand and what I still need to do to change. People ultimately choose to change. We can't really force them. You try to force somebody to change, the next thing we're going to get is compliance. You're not really going to get the quality. They may do something when we're watching, but that's not really what we want. Last, but I think probably the most powerful of all, is listening. It's strange, but I mean really listen to, to what people have got to say. It's amazing how often you, you find different teams performing their work in slightly different ways. So change looks different to different groups, to different people. And listening to their objections and their concerns about the change can help us tweak the solution to work better for them, but it also helps them work out their real concerns. Also, listening shows that you care, and often that is really what people are looking for during, times of, of change.


### Passage: Using everyday technology to make change stick [21:15–22:44, 287 words]

Note (AI): Railway messaging and Sasol safety-app examples show how familiar tools can carry change without extra burden on people.

Tom Marsicano, guest [21:15](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1275):
> Oh, yes. you know, we must do this. I don't think it's an option. You know, people are whole beings. The more we can integrate, the better. So, you know, I'm thinking of a case where a railway operator was implementing a change in the way they tracked and controlled their rolling stock. They needed to find out, they needed to have, in fact, an effective way for their workers to communicate with each other about where this rolling stock was. So they integrated, using, messaging systems running on their cell phones to send messages to, to one another. You know, sending messages on cell phones, everybody does it. So, you know, easy to just have an app that does exactly the same thing, but you're just applying it in a, in a very specific way. The other day I had to visit, my client at Sasol. To facilitate my safety, I downloaded an app on my phone and underwent a short training session before arriving at the building. So I would be aware of what to do, you know, in the building and how to, how to, you know, be safe, if you like. The smart thing that was, that, that really impressed me about this was that, when I completed this, little app, if you like, on the system, the system knew I had done that. So when I arrived at the building, I didn't, they didn't waste any of my time in reminding me of that stuff. They knew I had already done that. You know, for me, that's kind of smart use of technology that got me to change, and I didn't even realize it. Found it quite, quite, interesting and quite pleasing.


### Quotes

> "You know, change management goes well beyond project management. We have extremely important work to do in building change management as a strategic capability in organizations."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [00:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=0)

> "None of us have ever seen the real Easter bunny. Cause it's not real."
> — Tim Creasey, intro voice or played clip · [02:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=172)

> "So it's not only about managing change well, it's about managing the right change."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [04:08](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=248)

> "a good change manager in one industry can actually do quite well in another because the principles are the same, just the techno talk is different."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [07:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=479)

> "The scarcest of all these resources, of course, is, management focus, and the change demands a lot of that."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690)

> "The title is, C.E.O. Gandhi. It looks at leadership from a different perspective, and this whole concept of servant, servant leadership's been around a long time, but it's really about making it easy for people to, to grasp new ways of doing things."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=780)

> "a whole, a whole set of those have happened in the last two years amongst, amongst those, you know, losing people that are close to you. In fact, just yesterday I learned of a, a colleague of mine, that I haven't seen for many years, and I just heard that she'd, she'd gone."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [13:58](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=838)

> "sometimes I think we're change managers because we, we find change very difficult. I certainly do."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [14:42](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=882)

> "the one kind of change that starts and never stops is, of course, our life change. You know, we are constantly learning new things about ourselves as we experience different changes."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [15:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=914)

> "Yeah, they're normally very important. I mean, I call them glueware."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [15:41](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=941)

> "they enjoyed that, especially because we gave them coffee and, biscuits and gave them some attention, and, and they really enjoyed that."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [18:06](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1086)

> "People ultimately choose to change. We can't really force them."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196)

> "Also, listening shows that you care, and often that is really what people are looking for during, times of, of change."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [20:40](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1240)

> "that's kind of smart use of technology that got me to change, and I didn't even realize it."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · [22:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1355)


### Claims

> "So I tell the story in the Change Management space because when you go out and say Change Management, you have no idea what's going to pop in that person's head. They might think communication and training,"
> — Tim Creasey, intro voice or played clip · topic: Defining change management · [03:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=184)

> "Right now, change management is the practice that leads people to truly change what they think, feel, and do. We do this in an organizational context so that organizations can achieve their strategies. So it's not only about managing change well, it's about managing the right change."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Defining change management · [03:54](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=234)

> "No, I didn't start off in change management. I started off in business in general. In fact, I started off in IT, as an IT, professional."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Career background · [04:24](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=264)

> "I chose change management because of, a conviction that I could make a difference by applying all that I've learned in my life to helping others cope with many difficulties they have to deal with."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Career background · [04:34](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=274)

> "I've seen the huge damage that, badly managed change can cause, even death. But I've also seen the wonderful effect of well-managed change,"
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Career background · [04:45](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=285)

> "AndChange is a globally inspired group where an experienced and creative team apply and integrate a unique mix of knowledge and methods and research in this, field with a personal flair and curiosity."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: AndChange · [05:14](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=314)

> "I understand that, in mining, there is always the underlying drivers of, safety and tons. get those two right within a constraints of cost and market, forces, and we're halfway there."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [06:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=377)

> "So, for example, in the call center, everything is measured down to the second, because those seconds are a wasting asset, and saving ten seconds per phone call while keeping the quality of service high in an environment where there are tens of thousands of phone calls being handled every day equates to quite a big efficiency improvement."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [06:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=416)

> "It's always about building the same five key elements with people to get them to change. So the good news is that a good change manager in one industry can actually do quite well in another because the principles are the same, just the techno talk is different."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [07:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=470)

> "I say this because you're likely to find multiple cultures operating simultaneously in any area. There's the culture driven by the leader, but there is also the culture of the organization at large, and that this group is part of."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Culture and change · [08:51](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=531)

> "In a change that involved changing the way people worked in this environment, that included office layout, pace of work, the collaboration techniques, and even the etiquette amongst the, amongst the workers, the deployment of this in Mexico, for example, was very different from the colleagues just a thousand kilometers away in the USA."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Culture and change · [09:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=579)

> "In Brazil, I see a very hierarchical structure. So you'll see if the manager says one thing, then everybody will follow. Whereas if you work in a, a country like Australia, it is much more collaborative, and everybody has to buy in."
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Culture and change · [10:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=617)

> "But what I have seen is the difficulty management has in balancing the priority. Of production against the disruption of the change itself. They are squeezed on both ends, you know."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [10:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=656)

> "The scarcest of all these resources, of course, is, management focus, and the change demands a lot of that."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change in production environments · [11:30](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=690)

> "we start to experience something we call change saturation, which sort of happens when the next change that we try to effect in that environment just causes, things to go negative, people to resist, and the change actually doesn't take, take hold."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change saturation · [12:23](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=743)

> "The title is, C.E.O. Gandhi. It looks at leadership from a different perspective, and this whole concept of servant, servant leadership's been around a long time,"
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Leadership · [13:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=780)

> "We get so worried and taken in by trying to, you know, manage the change in corporate life, but actually it's the personal ones that are the tough ones."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Personal change · [14:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=866)

> "knowing change management doesn't make it any easier. sometimes I think we're change managers because we, we find change very difficult. I certainly do."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Personal change · [14:39](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=879)

> "I call them glueware. what do I mean by that? They bring their people from a place of, if you like, ignorance and fear about the, the change to full adoption and usage."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Supervisors as change leaders · [15:43](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=943)

> "it's really important that they do this and not us as the change managers, because people really work for their leaders and this is the kind of stuff that really is part of leadership, isn't it?"
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Supervisors as change leaders · [16:13](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=973)

> "I always recommend that the change teams include that vital layer of the, you know, the middle management, the supervisors. they have a role to play and, one that I would never try to substitute."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Supervisors as change leaders · [16:33](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=993)

> "We are getting more and more demands to change the way in which we do the training, break it up into small, small bites, if you like, have people get the knowledge that they need for, you know, to do the job on the job and near the job."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Training shift workers · [17:25](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1045)

> "we just established a few shacks, and they were, sort of the shacks were almost on the walkways of where the miners were walking between shifts, and we only had about 15, 20 minutes with them, and we would have to teach them something about the new way of doing things."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Training shift workers · [17:50](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1070)

> "one of the big ones is removing the barriers. You know, people have barriers to changing. These can vary from time obstacles, you know, I just don't have the time to do this new stuff, or, maybe even changing the measures, the way in which we measure people,"
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [18:49](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1129)

> "Another good one is explaining the consequences of not changing. It's the kind of so what, which is really important to, to a lot of people."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:31](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1171)

> "People ultimately choose to change. We can't really force them. You try to force somebody to change, the next thing we're going to get is compliance."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [19:56](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1196)

> "Last, but I think probably the most powerful of all, is listening. It's strange, but I mean really listen to, to what people have got to say."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Resistance to change · [20:10](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1210)

> "I'm thinking of a case where a railway operator was implementing a change in the way they tracked and controlled their rolling stock."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Technology to embed change · [21:26](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1286)

> "The other day I had to visit, my client at Sasol. To facilitate my safety, I downloaded an app on my phone and underwent a short training session before arriving at the building."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Technology to embed change · [22:00](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1320)

> "I mean, why couldn't we develop an app that shows you for certain populations where are people in their change journey?"
> — Petro du Pisani, host · topic: Technology to embed change · [23:04](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1384)

> "And it's live, it's real time. We don't have to run surveys, you know, cause a lot of people are all surveyed out these days."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Technology to embed change · [23:52](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1432)

> "Well, I actually see this as a worldwide problem. I don't think it's a South African problem only. I'm amazed to see how in some ways the application of project management, for example, in organizations has gone backwards in recent times."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change and project management · [24:35](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1475)

> "We, we are just, too short of change managers, actually, at this point in time everywhere."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change and project management · [24:59](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1499)

> "I think that when we reach the right level of maturity in project management, we'll have change management integrated into this practice. But don't misunderstand me, you know, change management goes well beyond project management."
> — Tom Marsicano, guest · topic: Change and project management · [25:17](https://dl.iono.fm/epi/prov_1036/epi_991996_high.mp3#t=1517)


### Episode notes (as published with the podcast)

Petro du Pisani talks to 'And Change' owner, Tom Marsicano about change in a production environment. AndChange.com · Connect with Tom on LinkedIn · Connect with Petro · Solid Gold Podcasts